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Riley37
Oh. Last post before mine, 27 August. Yeah, I guess that's dead. My bad. Should I try starting a "shaman totems" thread?
WearzManySkins
@Riley37

Go ahead if that is what you would like to do, do not let the Thread Stasi try to influence you. biggrin.gif

WMS
fistandantilus4.0
QUOTE (Penta)
Bad Riley. No thread necromancy.

(Seriously. Especially threads about religion.)

There's nothing wrong with bringing back an old thread. Especially if it's a pertinant post, and on the same subject. I'd rather see a discussion continued then a new thread come up and all the people form the original just rehash what they'd already said.
Maximum
To answer the question of religion in the Sixth World...

I believe that the major religions of the world will still be a powerful force. Christianity, in particular, has shown itself to be very adaptive to changes in the world. I also see a rise in religions that were almost lost, or very scarce.

Ultimately, even though many relate religion and magic in the Sixth World, religion is more about politics than anything else. And those with polictical power tend to have the ability to keep that political power.

As far as storytelling in your campaign goes, religion is a very powerful character that can set moods, create themes, and give motivation to many other characters. The state of the worlds religious status, and what you choose to focus on as a GM are two different things. As a storytelling GM, you should take the best of what suites your story, and leave the rest for another time.
Johnny Zen
QUOTE (Riley37)
<snip>
"What about some other totems/ways?"

Well there sure have been enough variant totems, magic traditions and/or adept ways in SR2/3 and on the web. The SR2/SR3 magic books (and the England, Germany and Asia books iirc) had lots of different magical traditions many of which could be used - together with certain involuntary geasa - to express what you put forth in your post. Also there are many more creations on the web, remember The First Church of Elvis anyone?

I always liked the more funky examples in SR lore, like Preacher the Troll from Prime Runners. And isn't there a whole order of catholic priests with magical powers (and respective geasa) mentioned in Threats? Like them most awakened who are religous would subconciously twist/adapt/express their magic in ways that conform with their belief systems. This could go as far as completely supressing any magic use, but if you get creative with geasa, reliance on certain spells only and non-standard visualization of spirits, I think you can pull off almost anything. Wasn't there a guy in a Steve Kenson novel whose subconcious did summon a spirit or something like that?

QUOTE
I dunno what Jerusalem is like in 20X6, but it could be rather chaotic and dangerous. I'm gonna let someone else speculate about the state of Israel, and its corporate connections, and any influences the value of petrochemical oil or the split of the USA might have on that situation

This is an interesting question. What does official SR lore say about Jerusalem? ...or Mekka? I only seem to remember that Nepal got sealed off by magical barriers. Not sure how that impacted buddhism though...
Penta
Not Nepal, Tibet.

That said:

I've had some success using religion in SR, in my limited attempts at playing or GMing over the years.

The thing is, though...Not by mocking it.

By playing up the awe factor.

For example, when the players would have to be at a Catholic Mass (to guard the celebrating Bishop against potential attack, as he'd been getting death threats due to some of his pastoral stances):

I played up the majestic feel of a High Mass, even in the post-1970 liturgy and in English. Not merely in the physical, but on the Astral. On the Astral, the Cathedral was bathed in a soft yet very intense white light; extremely bright, like looking at the sun, but also pervading with a feeling of calm, of peace, of awe. The Mass is described theologically as the continuous, unceasing prayer of the faithful to God, wherever and whenever it occurs; I played that up, with the Astral impression of the Mass having this feeling of eternity, of connectedness, of release as the congregation was, on a spiritual level, connected to the faithful around the world and over the millennia. The auras of the bishop, priests, deacons, and others in the Cathedral were hard to pick out; indeed, during the Eucharist, the intensity of thought, of feelings, of emotions made it painful to look towards the altar. (I admit, it was a -partial- duck of the issue of "what about assensing the Consecrated Host on the Astral?")

The way I see it, since 2011 especially, the Sixth World has seemingly been in crisis after endless crisis. That would tend to push people towards religion, for various and sundry reasons. Religion will have declined in some senses, yes - not quite the level of political or social or other influence that it had before the 20th century, which I think is what Dunkelzahn and others were referring to in Aztlan since dragons and IEs think over the long-term. People, I don't think, would become atheistic - at worst, they'd be agnostic, speaking broadly. It'd be "I'm not sure if You exist, God, but I really really hope You do..."
Eryk the Red
That's sort of the way I've seen it. The world of Shadowrun is a world where I expect more people to feel the need for faith. Not shadowrunners, necessarily. Maybe not corporate shills, or anyone like that. But the regular working schlub, he's going to feel the need for something uplifting. Some feeling that there's something more. Hell, I assume that even Christian music has become a more profitable business.

And, it's not that hard to believe when you live in a world of magic. (Especially since the average guy doesn't feel the need to scrutinize every detail. Joe Normal doesn't ask "How do elves fit into Genesis?")

I like this, because it's also another way to add some character to the world. It's easy to kidnap a faceless target. But what if he's at Mass when you break into his house? What if you watch him say his nighttime prayers before grabbing him? You're not just extracting a target. You're damaging his hopes and faith.

I like the depth that sort of thing can add.

And, well, if you're into that sort of thing, a corrupt church with lots of magic makes a neat antagonist.
Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (Eryk the Red)
But the regular working schlub, he's going to feel the need for something uplifting.

In my SR, that "something uplifting" is escape from reality via AR, VR, and BTLs, not religion. Escaping reality and ignoring your problems has never been easier. cool.gif
hyzmarca
I suddenly have a picture of a squad of highly trained missionaries breaking into an Ares Insect research facility and using its magical resources to project to The Hive for the sole purpose of spreading the Good News to our Insect brothers.
Eryk the Red
QUOTE
QUOTE

But the regular working schlub, he's going to feel the need for something uplifting.


In my SR, that "something uplifting" is escape from reality via AR, VR, and BTLs, not religion. Escaping reality and ignoring your problems has never been easier.



Drugs, TV and computer games exist now. Some people still seem to prefer Amy Grant.

Your way is definitely more cyberpunk. But mine seems more real to me. It's different priorities, you know?
Penta
Eryk nails it: Moon-Hawk does a good job of pointing out the short-term "snacks" that people use, but there's still the greater question, the sense of "something missing".

It's been an issue noted by religious and secular alike in the real world for decades; No matter how much of the (drugs, BTLs, VR, alcohol, etc) people consume, they still say that.

Hence, I think, why religion remains so potent, making a mockery of the secularization thesis (which posits that as a society becomes more developed economically, religion will decline; a theory beaten to a pulp by the continuing religiosity of the US, which is at levels more equivalent to Sub-Saharan Africa than Western Europe, regardless of economics).

Because, well, the corps don't answer the question of "What happens after I die?" very well.
Demonseed Elite
On the topic of Tibet being sealed off and the effect on Buddhism, it only really affected Tibetan Buddhism, one branch of the Buddhist religion. Other branches of Buddhism don't have much to do with Tibet or the Dalai Lama, so they aren't bothered much by Tibet being sealed off.

When it comes to Tibetan Buddhism, there are Tibetan Seals that allow people to pass through the Maya Cloud that seals the nation. Those seals (Dunkelzahn's Seal of the Green Gloves was one) are in the hands of the monks of the Lotus Throne sect. The Dalai Lama has empowered these monks with being his emissaries to practitioners of Tibetan Buddhism outside of Tibet. So Tibetan Buddhist monasteries do still have contact with Tibet, but through a process.
Eleazar
QUOTE (Penta @ Sep 20 2007, 11:27 AM)
Because, well, the corps don't answer the question of "What happens after I die?" very well.

Well depending on the corp they can just make you a cyberzombie. Then you really do not have to worry about the questions regarding ones own mortality. I also see some AAA corps doing something like Tessier Ashpool in Neuromancer. I think the question religion attempts to answer is even more important than "What happens after I die?" It is, "Where and how can man find meaning to life." Drugs, btls, AR, VR, etc never will bring a true sense of meaning, fulfillment, and purpose to ones life. Maybe the illusion of one though, and for some that is enough. Well comparatively to religion that is, obviously some would say the meaning, fulfillment, and purpose religion provides is also an illusion, just a much more potent one.
Penta
Eleazar: That only holds if cyberzombies are publicly known. I don't see anything in SR that would lead be to believe that.
mfb
i don't see why the corps wouldn't subvert religion the way they subvert everything else in the name of profit. every corp probably has a hundred or more "charities" for employees to contribute to--charities whose 'administrative costs' eat 95 percent of the donation. corporate gated communities with a church every ten blocks, that hold morning, afternoon, and evening services--more opportunities to pass around the collection plate. religion is free money.
Penta
Because the first corp to try to subvert religion like that would be subject to a dogpile of bad PR by the other corps' media divisions.

The bad PR would then turn all the *other* corps off doing that.
Riley37
Pre-emptive warning: There are well-established forums for questions such as "can life have meaning, and how does religion stand among ways to find meaning in life, compared to drug highs". Also for the relative merits of "when I die" and "meaning in life".
It is *not* the goal of this forum to settle those questions; just to see how those questions inspires good stories for Shadowrun players. Please continue, with that geasa!

Hyzmarca writes "I suddenly have a picture of a squad of highly trained missionaries breaking into an Ares Insect research facility and using its magical resources to project to The Hive for the sole purpose of spreading the Good News to our Insect brothers."
See, now that's a story spark! If it happens at the same time as a PC Shadowrun team breaking into the same facility... oh, and our heroes were hired by a Mr. Johnson who says that Draco Foundation wants the facility shut down, but actually Mr. Johnson's deal is with Aztechnology, and the hacker support has orders accordingly...

On another hand, there could be a Bug-Squasher totem, specifically followed by those who defend against insect invasions. (Overlaps with Dragonslayer, but grim rather than fun-loving)

Also, BTLs and religion are not necessarily exclusive categories. There may well be a BTL or two recorded from the sensorium of a very devout worshipper at a charismatic church, experiencing a near-orgasmic feeling of deep ecstasy and connnection. And the music's pretty good too. It's even better than the old-school movie "O Brother Where Art Thou". Or, for that matter, a BTL of a Buddhist monk approaching Nirvana, possibly enhanced with Echeresque graphics.

As for religion as "free money"... sure, there are con artists, some aware of it, some self-delusional. There are also ministers who are grateful for the collection and work darn hard, doing what they can for the Eleanor Rigbys of the Sixth World; some of them in formal churches, some of them as the shamans of street tribes.
mfb
QUOTE (Penta @ Sep 20 2007, 02:05 PM)
Because the first corp to try to subvert religion like that would be subject to a dogpile of bad PR by the other corps' media divisions.

The bad PR would then turn all the *other* corps off doing that.

what bad PR? what are they doing wrong? all the money they're siphoning off the top is completely legal, since it's happening on their own property--and impossible to trace anyway, since they control all the books.
Eryk the Red
I guess it depends what you mean by "subverting" religion. Corporate-sponsored chapels on corp property, complete with sermons biased toward the company philosophy? Yeah, I see that happening. The First AresTheology Division Church is not likely to find much support in the open market, though. Now, corporate sponsorship to one of those "megachurches" is not only possible, but likely and probably necessary.

I just don't see the Catholic or LDS churches being taken over by Saeder Krupp any time soon.
Serial_Peacemaker
Wouldn't the bug-squasher totem be Spider? I mean I was of the impression that having a hate on for insects was one of that totems major deals. Also just because a corp sponsers a religion doesn't mean it will be a Christian religion necessarily. Some corps may very well favor something else.
mfb
oh, yeah, i'm not talking about churches that actually worship the megacorp. i'm talking about going to a church of your denomination, where Ares pays the minister's wages, Ares maintenance workers keep the building in repair, and the collection plate is dumped directly into Ares Combined Charities, Inc.
Penta
Possible with independent megachurches....But would be easily sniffed-out by anybody looking closely, and would be rather juicy for other megacorps to beat Ares (in your example) over the head with. Would also lead to said Megacorp getting a lot of flak from, say, Islamic regions, afraid the corp is going to subvert Islam the same way. And other Protestants, fearing similar things happening. And...well, go on at your leisure.

Could they? With Protestant megachurches, yeah. That's really the only case I think it would work. But would it be worth the risk of the amount of PR damage that would be sustained if it were to be found out? Not likely.

So, sure, they could. But I don't think they would. It's too risky...And besides, that'd put corporate executives in situations where they have to decide religious doctrine, more than likely. That leads nowhere good!
Fortune
QUOTE (Riley37)
Pre-emptive warning: There are well-established forums for questions such as "can life have meaning, and how does religion stand among ways to find meaning in life, compared to drug highs". Also for the relative merits of "when I die" and "meaning in life".
It is *not* the goal of this forum to settle those questions; just to see how those questions inspires good stories for Shadowrun players. Please continue, with that geasa!

Who died and made you a Moderator?
mfb
it wouldn't be possible to sniff out at all. Ares, or whichever megacorp is running things, has control of all the money from start to finish. it's basically a method of keeping corporate resources within the corporation. most of the churchgoers are going to be corporate citizens, so their money is corporate. they give to the church, which feeds that money back into the corporation. extraterritoriality means there's little or no oversight on internal financial transactions, and the corporation can make their procedures as transparent or opaque as they desire--and any corporation run with half a brain will make them very opaque indeed.

besides what PR damage? your local Methodist church isn't actually sponsored by Ares, it's sponsored by 10th Avenue Groceries and Detroit Cineplex and Five Star Auto Repair--all of which are wholly-owned Ares subsidiaries. and if some decker manages to hack into the black server that maintains Ares Combined Charities' financial data, all they'll be able to prove is that Ares Combined Charities has a very top-heavy, wasteful infrastructure. and on the off chance that anyone actually believes this lone decker (for the five minutes he has before a corporate kick artist puts cyanide in his cheerios), Ares will respond with a massive ad campaign about how Ares Combined Charities provides a hundred thousand jobs to Detroit. at worst, Ares Combined Charities will be dissolved--and its assets absorbed by other Ares subsidiaries. and within six months, the whole shebang will be operational again under a new name.
Whipstitch
In no way do the corporations need to actually loot religious organizations to actually benefit from manipulating them. Remember, corporate PR manipulation is nothing if not pervasive; even just merely making sure some mid level executives show up for mass on Sundays just like everyone else could potentially go a long way towards humanizing the face of the company. And never forget that religious groups are often at the heart of political movements, and merely having their leaders think twice before condemning the "friendly" local megacorp could be priceless. For example, imagine how differently the US Civil Rights movement would have looked without black religious leaders galvanizing the community.
hyzmarca
The extremely close ties between Aztechnology and the Aztech religion hasn't hurt the popularity of either.
Riley37
Fortune asks who died and made me Moderator. Was Dunkelzahn's death necessary for someone's promotion? Anyways, I don't have censor/ban authority, I'm just a Target, but I'm gambling that the actual moderators won't mind my request for relevance on this thread.

As a churchgoing son of a professional investigative reporter... the PR risk depends on how clumsily or badly the corp rigs its relationship with a religious organization. Selective donation to non-profit foundations which *then* donate to a church, is a more subtle form of influence. And supporting relief organizations which get donations from the church, and which just happen to dig wells and give immunizations in Third World villages which happen to sign contracts for mineral rights, is also subtle influence. In this case, some money *is* being spent on public health for the needy, but selectively. World will get around, fast enough to be an incentive, that villages which host strip mines and oil wells are getting better assistance from the First Church Charity Alliance.

Even if Ares directly runs a church on Ares property, it would not be impossible for Cross to run the analysis, and then get Horizon to write a 20-second trid spot pointing out that Cross's support of the First Church Charity Alliance does more good, counted by wells and immunizations. Look at how publicity has affected the Red Cross, United Way, NAACP, etc.

Ares could sponsor a non-denominational "office chaplain" program, nominally as a way of offering relief to its stressed employees, with some effectiveness, and also with commisar-ish side effects on office politics.
Whipstitch
...It wasn't even remotely close to going off-topic, however. The post in question was just off-handedly pointing out that AR programming is highly entertaining but unlikely to offer spiritual fulfillment, which implies that religion will remain unchallenged in its particular niche rather than become irrelevant in the Sixth world. Anyway though, I do see what you're getting at with the rest of your post. I think one of the clearest ways to view how the corporations deal with churches is to think of the congregation as a special interest group; after all, if you're a corp, a church is really just another sales demographic. Well, right up until they start raising a stink about that hot new transgenic bioweapon you spent a few billion developing. Then steps need to be taken.
Glyph
I think looking at China would give you a good idea of how corporations would view religion - they would not mind sanitized "official" religions regulated by themselves, but would distrust any religion that they didn't have some measure of control over. Such religions would be seen as something that could potentially subvert the loyalty of the drones to their corporation.

Of course, even with extraterritoriality, they wouldn't be able to employ the same kind of direct control that China does, but as other posters have said, they can influence religious institutions in many ways, and guide employees towards "approved" ones in many other ways.

It can add another dimension to inter-corporate warfare and shadowrunning. Maybe when you spy on a corporate higher-up, you find that he's sneaking off to attend a Dianic wiccan coven, instead of the Gardnerian wicca that the company approves of. Or maybe Renraku recruiters have infiltrated the local Baptist church, and use the local meet-and-greet to scout out the local Ares employees to subvert.
fistandantilus4.0
QUOTE (Riley37)
Fortune asks who died and made me Moderator. Was Dunkelzahn's death necessary for someone's promotion? Anyways, I don't have censor/ban authority, I'm just a Target, but I'm gambling that the actual moderators won't mind my request for relevance on this thread.


Heh, yeah , well, about that.

We prefer to follow our own counsel on when a thread drifts , and how far we're going to allow it. The Guidelines are down right now, but in the new software package that will eventually be rolled out ( I swear, really, it's gonna happen) ,an inclusion along the lines of "let the mods doing the moderating" will likely be in there. I know you're new here, so no worries, but please leave it to us in the future.
Zhan Shi
I don't know about society as a whole. But if I were a Catholic in 2011, and the magic returned, I would wonder to myself "If the Church was wrong about this, what else are they wrong about?" The (re)apearrence of magic would not be some minor hiccup in the Church's dogma, but a (perhaps) fatal blow to it's entire theological structure.
mfb
i don't see that the return of magic necessarily goes against the scripture as written, though it's certainly true that it probably goes against many interpretations of the scripture. the bible is very clear on the idea that there are other sources of supernatural power besides YHWH. it says that the power of YHWH is stronger than any other source, but it doesn't say they don't exist--as a matter of fact, it references their use several times. the pharaoh's magicians and the witch of Endor are the examples that spring to mind first.

i'm not saying it wouldn't cause a major shakeup, but there's enough wiggle room in the scripture that almost anything can be made acceptable.
Penta
I agree with mfb, for once.

One thing I think would happen: Biblical literacy, in terms of people actually learning in an academic sense about the Bible, what it says, etc., will spike hugely from 2011 through 2031. In real life, many people don't actually -know- what the Bible says or means on things, or much of anything about how the text we know of as the Bible was arrived at.

Things like elves and dwarves would, I hope, push a lot of people to learn about -what the Bible actually says-.

But then, I'm noted as an optimist.
Eryk the Red
Heck, I think Judaism would be strengthened by the awakening, in some ways. Judaism, as it exists now, not only makes mention of magic as having existed (if not now then at some point), and there's even rules about its use. It would seem like a confirmation of our doctrine. It'd be like "Oh. THAT'S why that part is in there. It makes sense now."
Redjack
QUOTE (Zhan Shi)
But if I were a Catholic in 2011, and the magic returned, I would wonder to myself "If the Church was wrong about this, what else are they wrong about?" The (re)appearance of magic would not be some minor hiccup in the Church's dogma, but a (perhaps) fatal blow to it's entire theological structure.

I would think it would be far more devastating to Baptists and other very conservative denominations. Catholics already strongly believe in supernatural portents, signs, omens, etc. that are strongly repudiated by some others. Also by having a living person who is able to reinterpret the doctrine, Catholics and Mormons have a measure of being able to defer the masses and placate them with updated explanations that purport to be of divine inspiration. Following on the great points that mfb made, I thing several denominations would be strengthened while others would be greatly weakened.

Also, I'm sure that trolls and orks would no doubt be vilified as the Nephilim by some sects/denominations as well.
Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (Eryk the Red)
It'd be like "Oh. THAT'S why that part is in there. It makes sense now."

Wait, if it didn't make sense before, then why would people......nevermind.
wink.gif
Eryk the Red
It's not that it didn't make sense, so much as it wasn't relevant. There's rules about using sorcery. But I can't use sorcery, so they don't really affect me now, do they?

Similarly, there are actually talmudic rules about conduct on "flying towers" (don't ask me what those rules are, I can't remember). No one knew what they were for for a long time, since no one had any flying towers. Those rules apply on airplanes now.
Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (Eryk the Red @ Sep 21 2007, 09:54 AM)
...there are actually talmudic rules about conduct on "flying towers" (don't ask me what those rules are...

Oh come on. You can't say something like that and then not tell me what they are. I have to go Google it and tell everyone now anyway. nyahnyah.gif
edit: Nevermind. I can't figure it out.
Zhan Shi
I could be wrong about this, since it's been a long time from my days in CCD. But in addition to magic, dosn't the bible also imply that there are other gods? In other words, it's not "Worship YHWH because he is the only god; worship him because he is the first/strongest. Stop worshiping the spirits of the sun, moon, etc., and worship the being who actually CREATED the sun, moon, etc." The Ars Magica game did some write ups on the relationship between the Divine and the various pagan deities.
Kerberos
QUOTE (Zhan Shi)
I could be wrong about this, since it's been a long time from my days in CCD. But in addition to magic, dosn't the bible also imply that there are other gods? In other words, it's not "Worship YHWH because he is the only god; worship him because he is the first/strongest. Stop worshiping the spirits of the sun, moon, etc., and worship the being who actually CREATED the sun, moon, etc." The Ars Magica game did some write ups on the relationship between the Divine and the various pagan deities.

It does. Moses has a competition with the pharoes magicians about whose god is most powerful. Moses wins of cause, but the point is that pharoes magicians do perform actual, honest to god (pun intended), miracles. There are other examples too, I believe. There are also passages strongly suggesting that god is neither omnipotent nor omniscient IIRC.
Penta
Yup. The Bible, even in the *New* Testament (Simon Magus, anyone?), mentions magic, in good and bad ways.

Now, the thing is: Taking it all together leads to a less-than-perfectly-clear view.

Sola scriptura types, in other words, will have it very hard.

Catholics and Orthodox can rely on Tradition to an extent, but that doesn't exclude the possibility for boneheaded missteps early on, before the theologians can provide an intellectual underpinning to any pastoral response. Part of why Catholicism and Orthodoxy move slowly on any sort of change is because there are so few situations in Church history where rapid moves have ever turned out well.

Pentecostals...Well, it depends on whether your preacher actually starts slinging spells. If not, well, massive falloff in favor of those who can, or to other denominations entirely.

Jehovah's Witnesses...Huh, they'd probably forbid all use of magic, wouldn't they?

Mormons: Continuing revelation comes in handy once again...Though it may well get them in trouble, again, too. If the LDS leadership is prescient and takes a tolerant stance from the first days of the Awakening, they could get through things pretty well. If not, well...They'd be surrounded by the NAN after 2018; It could well be that the few Mormons left anywhere would be in their SLC enclave.

Flexibility isn't always a good thing, though, and I think what a lot of denominations will have is a tension between a flexible response to events and yet also having the stability that people will be craving in the middle of such tempests. Thus why I think that the denominations that take a "liberal vanguard" approach may face a lot of issues - because, well...The data isn't terribly clear, those first few years of the awakening, and the really-fast-movers that look perfectly-clued-in on one day may look clueless the next. Caution would be what gets Christian denominations through the first decade or two after the Awakening, trying to move fast enough to respond, but not so fast that they risk being overrun by events proving them wrong.
Riley37
Whipstich writes: "if you're a corp, a church is really just another sales demographic." Or a specific market, for some niches; eg the companies which specialize in selling kosher and kosher-for-Passover consumables, one of which has broad name recognition, or the makers of candles with glass cylinders inscribed with desired outcomes (popular among some Latino Catholics), eg candles for true love, cursebreakers, etc.

Speaking of which, opinions will vary in the Sixth World, as they do today, about the boundary between praying for a desired outcome, and working magic or Magick. Candles which demonstrably bring about desired outcomes may be a popular purchase even among those whose religion forbids magic.

Penta writes "One thing I think would happen: Biblical literacy, in terms of people actually learning in an academic sense about the Bible, what it says, etc., will spike hugely from 2011 through 2031." I'm not so optimistic; many SR settings include a decrease in literacy and critical thought, and an emphasis in packaged-for-convenience consumerism of ideas, as an extension of some current trends. Compare the sales figures of Deborah Tannen's "You Just Don't Understand", based on linguistic research and drawing mostly tenative conclusions, with John Gray's "Men are From Mars, Women are from Venus", which takes a much more "this is how it is, follow these methods" approach. The rise of the PC and of the Internet were both huge opportunities for easier access to primary texts, alternate translations, commentaries, concordances and so forth; there's a market for those, but most people still turn to a church, rabbi, imam, etc, for interpretation.

Penta also writes "the denominations that take a "liberal vanguard" approach may face a lot of issues". Cogent point. I would bet long odds that UCC, UU, Quaker, Reform and Reconstruction Jews, and most Pagans will take an early and strong position that Dwarves and Elves deserve equal rights as any other human-born person, until proven otherwise, and a similar stance when Goblinization occurs. They may have a hard time accepting that the IQ range of Orks and Trolls really does differ from the Human/Dwarf/Elf IQ range. This will cause lotsa conflict with the Humanis types, and will work out OK in the long run. (The current movement to provide sanctuary on church grounds for refugees, which makes arrests for deportation more politically high-profile, might extend to metahumans.)

On another hand, liberal churches may be slow to recognize the Universal Brotherhood as a threat worthy of extreme measures. (Were there any UB leaders who really were just about brotherhood, and were shocked to learn about the insect spirits, and who are trying to carry on?)

fistandantilus3.0 writes "I know you're new here, so no worries, but please leave it to us in the future." I'll take that as a friendly warning, and roger wilco.
hyzmarca
What I'd really like to see in SR is a return of Asherah as a prominent Hebrew deity . With the awakening, many previously unworshipped gods got a huge boost by calling Shamans in their name, YHWH's wife should be no exception to this.
Glyph
Both liberal and conservative Christian denominations would face challenges, but one good thing about adopting (for the most part) a hermetic view of magic is that you don't have to try and pidgeonhole it into your faith.

Religions with a traditon of "magic" would have a harder time, because it's not just them - everyone is doing magic, and some of them are professing completely different views than theirs. They would adapt, though. Some would consider their magic "good" and other magic "evil" or trickery. Some would consider magic a very personal thing, and not bat an eye at someone whose magic works completely differently than theirs (although a mage whose magic is based on 80's anime, and works, might still shake them up a bit). And some religions might think that other mages simply don't understand the true source of their power.
NightmareX
QUOTE (Penta)
But then, I'm noted as an optimist.

Optimism doesn't exactly jive very well with SR or cyberpunk in general wink.gif
NightmareX
QUOTE (Penta)
(I admit, it was a -partial- duck of the issue of "what about assensing the Consecrated Host on the Astral?")

If I ever describe a consecrated host in the astral in game, I'd go the whole nine yards - play up it's beatific radiance, holy, calming (or perhaps enraging, depending on many circumstances) presence, etc etc etc. Christian magicians would likely play this up as evidence of the truth of their religion, while the rest of the magical world would likely roll their eyes and explain it in terms of SR magic - after all, it is the focal point of the mass, and the emotional resonance of the congregation would have significant effect on it.

Also has the nice effect of not answering the question definitively and creating confusion (just like the real world).

QUOTE (hyzmarca)
I sudden;y have a picture of a squad of highly trained missionaries breaking into an Ares Insect research facility and using its magical resources to project to The Hive for the sole purpose of spreading the Good News to our Insect brothers.

rotfl.gif rotfl.gif rotfl.gif

QUOTE (Penta)
Eryk nails it: Moon-Hawk does a good job of pointing out the short-term "snacks" that people use, but there's still the greater question, the sense of "something missing".

It's been an issue noted by religious and secular alike in the real world for decades; No matter how much of the (drugs, BTLs, VR, alcohol, etc) people consume, they still say that.

Myself I haven't heard a single secular source say anything of the sort - tis the religious folk that like to push this (unfounded) assertion. In any case, I would guess that same line would continue to be used in SR, and secular folk would continue to reply to it with something akin to "the meaning of life is whatever meaning one chooses to give it".

QUOTE (Riley37)
Also, BTLs and religion are not necessarily exclusive categories. There may well be a BTL or two recorded from the sensorium of a very devout worshipper at a charismatic church, experiencing a near-orgasmic feeling of deep ecstasy and connnection.

Indeed - I've experimented with less-than-scrupulous individuals feeding BTL-level signals into virtual churches (an inevitability IMO) in order to win converts and "enhance the faith" of existing members. BTLs and simsense would make excellent tools to enhance the message/experience of almost any religion.

QUOTE (hyzmarca)
What I'd rally like to see in SR is a return of Asherah as a prominent Hebrew deity . With the awakening, many previously unworshipped gods got a huge boost by calling Shamans in their name, YHWH's wife should be no exception to this.

Certainly would make for interesting apologetics biggrin.gif

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