It's a matter of whether or not you find your beliefs worthy of keeping. Adaptation is only required when what you currently have is LESS VALID than what is new.
Given, I myself am a Southern Baptist with somewhat unorthodox views, compared to many in my church. I personally have adapted my belief system to match modern science, as I don't believe in a God that would make a world that didn't match the rules he set it up to work in.
So, I've adapted from what I was raised to believe in that I don't believe Genesis is literal. I believe the more Catholic version, that God is infallible, man is not, and when the holy word was inspired, man wrote it down in the best terms he could, in order to understand, explain, and share it according to his times. I don't think the commandments are less valid, or what Jesus taught isn't literal; only that the sections dealing with truly divine acts, such as the creation of the world and it's creatures, can't properly be explained by humans, so metaphor is the best we can do.
I don't believe in insulting others religions, though, so just because you feel your view is superior (and in many ways, it often is, when it comes down to SOME fundamentalists seeing science as "the enemy"...oh the joys of debating that with my friends in church!) people seriously need to watch what they say about it. Just because you think you're being ironic or funny, doesn't mean that someone who BELIEVES in what you call bull-drek is going to take it well.
Full Version: Religion in the Sixth World
| QUOTE (Eleazar) |
| Hyzmarca: Your presuppositions about religion make any sort of objective debate completely destitute. For one, all religions can not be true. That would create a paradox. Thus, not all of them can be equally valid. If they are all "full of ****" then that would make them all invalid. Your logic doesn't seem to follow. One religion, if a true religion does in fact exist, would have to be correct. That religion could be found if one was actually seeking that true religion out. If you never seek however, how can you ever know? You seem more predisposed of insulting other people's religions than being reasonable and objective. If I were to use your same logic I could say that the grass in front of my yard is green. However my neighbor thinks it is blue. My other neighbor thinks it is hot pink. Under your logic, we could actually all be right. |
I think you're missing the point.
A thing can be valid without being true and a thing can be true without being valid. Validity and Truth are two completely different concepts.
It is impossible to objectively determine any spiritual truth because it is impossible to objectively measure any spiritual thing. That doesn't mean that there s no spiritual truth. It simply means that this spiritual truth will never by known by any human being using any objective means.
The validity of any belief depends entirely in on the system in which a belief is examined. In the system of objective science, all spiritual belief is inherently invalid, since spiritual things cannot be measured directly or indirectly. This doesn't mean that it is untrue, just invalid.
However, in subjective systems, any belief can be valid, depending on the perceptions of the subject. Comparisons between religious faiths are always going to come down to a matter of personal preference, you might as well argue about whether red is better than blue, because it is a matter of opinion rather than of fact.
But doctrine can be debated. When debating doctrine, we must take the middle road and debate religious truth within the framework of that religion, rather than any objective or subjective framework or within the framework of another religion.
This only works in an organized system of formal doctrine, but if that system is there then it is possible to have some very fun and productive debates about things like when a fetus becomes ensouled and other fun issues.
| QUOTE (Eleazar) |
| You seem more predisposed of insulting other people's religions than being reasonable and objective |
That's not what he's doing. It's just iffy wording.
| QUOTE (Eleazar) |
| Under your logic, we could actually all be right. |
No, because your lawn can be proven to be green. You know, assuming it is infact green and not brown. Anywho... the point is that the lawn can be proven. Religion can't. That's the basis of faith.
Well, at least until you die.
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) | ||
The New Testament is a collection of books full of shit that some guys made up. The book of Mormon is a book full of some shit that a guy made up. Dianetics is a book full of shit that some guy made up. They're all equally valid religious texts. The odd one out here is Dianetics because the other two books are full of shit some guys made up about Jesus Christ being out Lord and Savior. Divine inspiration cannot be bestowed by consensus. It either is divinely inspired or it isn't and no amount of human scrutiny can determine one way or another which is the case. And this is why all earnest religious texts are equally valid. There is no way to prove that they aren't. It is why all religions are equally valid and everyone has a right to the religious faith that they choose and it is why no one should look down on any faith. One can argue about the correctness of any scripture or doctrine within that faith's internal belief system, of course, but one can't look upon another faith as invalid simply because its internal belief system differs from that of the majority. I do agree that social traeds will have more impact on religious faith than the return of magic does. I will, however, disagree that the megacorporate atmosphere is necessarily toxic to faith. In fact, many for-profit corporations are run by people of faith. Others still are based entirely around faith. In fact, the Aztechnology corporation is a good example of how a megacorp can improve and promote faith. Without Aztechnology's support of the Aztec Church, it would not have experienced the resurgence that it has. Aztechnology'a encouragement of its employees to take up the Aztech faith combined with its support of the Aztec state of Aztlan both ensure a bright future for the Aztec Church and paves the way for a resurgence of other human sacrifice based religions. |
All religious texts may be equally valid to an outsider, but belonging to a religion generally involves picking a set of them. I'm not dissing the Koran, or the Book of Mormon, but they aren't books that Catholics or Protestants use as holy books. I disagree with the notion that disagreement equates intolerance.
As far as the megacorporations being toxic to faith, I didn't mean it in the sense of weakening it, but in the sense of subverting it to serve their own ends. Of course, if you are predisposed to see all religion as a scam anyways, it may not seem that different to you.
| QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0 @ Aug 16 2007, 02:44 PM) |
| Well, at least until you die. |
And in keeping with the SR4 nature of this thread, "and if you do not burn an Edge".
| QUOTE |
| Of course, if you are predisposed to see all religion as a scam anyways, it may not seem that different to you. |
Personally I see it as more of a social science, a kind of Academic or maybe Street Knowledge skill. Hmm... Logic + Theology vs Intuition + Evangelism.
Which reminds me, something I've been meaning to birng up for some time. Hopefully this won't tangent too much.
Has anyone ever used First Aid to bring someone back from past the brink? You know, defibulater, nanites, all that. Character is already dead ,then brought back? I ask because it seems like a logical way to do to survive death, without using HoG, and brings up the whole "Tunnel of Light" in to the game.
Has anyone ever used First Aid to bring someone back from past the brink? You know, defibulater, nanites, all that. Character is already dead ,then brought back? I ask because it seems like a logical way to do to survive death, without using HoG, and brings up the whole "Tunnel of Light" in to the game.
| QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0) |
| Which reminds me, something I've been meaning to birng up for some time. Hopefully this won't tangent too much. Has anyone ever used First Aid to bring someone back from past the brink? You know, defibulater, nanites, all that. Character is already dead ,then brought back? I ask because it seems like a logical way to do to survive death, without using HoG, and brings up the whole "Tunnel of Light" in to the game. |
Unless the GM allows it, I doubt the PC can be brought back to life with First Aid.
(Are you allowing us to use it that way in the game?
)
If you roll well enough and have the right equipment, I see no reason not to. My Golden Rule is to ignore or allow rules as common sense dictates. Of course, my idea of common sense isn't always the same as others, so ask when in doubt.
Anyone ever use near death religious experiences in game? I had one PC in a game I ran w/ Latenet Awakening that awakened after one.
Anyone ever use near death religious experiences in game? I had one PC in a game I ran w/ Latenet Awakening that awakened after one.
| QUOTE (Glyph) |
| All religious texts may be equally valid to an outsider, but belonging to a religion generally involves picking a set of them. I'm not dissing the Koran, or the Book of Mormon, but they aren't books that Catholics or Protestants use as holy books. I disagree with the notion that disagreement equates intolerance. |
The notion that one religion is somehow inferior to another because of the books chosen, however, can only be called intolerance. And that is just what the assertion that people who believe that The Book of Mormon is a divinely revealed or divinely inspired compliment to the Bible aren't really Christians is.
Jews aren't Christians. Muslims aren't Christians. Scientologists are not Christians. However, the big prerequisite for Christianity is faith in Christ, not adherence to any particular book. Saying that Mormons aren't Catholics would be extremely accurate. Saying that they aren't Christians is just insulting. And the person typing this a Taoist, of sorts, so take what you will from it.
Ancestor Spirits are probably the biggest magical issue related to religion and the afterlife, because they may literally be the spirits of the dead. The possibility that there exist metaplanes where the spirits of the dead go is very real, and it is possible that there are more than one such metaplanes.
Dark King followers can potentially visit any one of a number of Hells and Adversary followers can potentially visit many entirely different Hells.
The problem with Sixth World religions is that YHWH can get into a fistfight with Baal and Hachiman can pull his katana on Allah, because these beings or aspects of these beings exist in the forms of Mentor Spirits. A Classical Satanist Adversary follower is literally fornicating with Lucifer at his black masses. Whether or not this Lucifer is the Lucifer or a Lucifer is questionable, especially since your Christian Gnostic Maltheist Advasary follower is plotting with his Lucifer to overthrow the Demiurge.
If Sam "Twist" Verner teaches you the Great Ghost Dance and you use it to beat up a Jesus and save the world from what is apparently the Second Coming what does that say about the nature of divinity? When beings who are old enough to have walked with the gods roam the earth in silence while the gods themselves remain unseen what does that day about divinity?
I've never had a serious near death experience in game, I've never even considered non HOG revival, though stabilization coming back from overflow is probably the best way to implement near-death experiences, instead of literal revival.
The light at the end of the tunnel, metaplanar projection, ghosts, ancestor spirits, and Mentor Spirits suggest a very complex metahuman afterlife and a very complex system of pantheons. But in any game that can easily be toned down. Everything can be explained away by one theory or another. A Jesus doesn't have to be the Jesus. An Allah can be an impostor.
This still doesn't explain how Sam beat up The Spider.
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
This still doesn't explain how Sam beat up The Spider. |
Bah, he didn't. He was delusional.
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
| Saying that Mormons aren't Catholics would be extremely accurate. Saying that they aren't Christians is just insulting. |
depends on who says it. if a Taoist said that Mormons aren't Christians, that would be insulting. any non-Mormon Christian who says that Mormons aren't Christians is just expounding on the tenants of his or her faith.
as far as many denominations needing to change their views in light of the Awakening... i really don't think a lot of them would. most people, no matter what faith or lack of faith they profess to, are going to believe what they're going to believe and the facts don't make one damn of difference.
I'm late to this one because I've been offline for a few days. I've studied many religions in my time and oddly I seem to be in agreement with both Hyzmarca and Eleazar on this one. I agree that all religious texts (and I own too many to list) are books full of shit PEOPLE wrote down; and since PEOPLE wrote them (and edited and translated them) they must all be considered to be the same, OBJECTIVELY. Hyzmarca has taken the stance that since they cannot be disproven, they are all valid; one could take the opposite stance and claim they are all invalid since they cannot be proven. I think he's showing a great deal of respect for other people's views here. Personally, I find them all to be, SUBJECTIVELY, both valid and invalid at the same time. What I mean by this is that I have found something which I feel to be true in every text I have studied, while finding much I feel is untrue.
As far as God existing in the SR universe, I have to support much of what Eleazar has to say on the matter. If God existed as Christian doctrine teaches, the world of SR could not function the way it does.
As far as God existing in the SR universe, I have to support much of what Eleazar has to say on the matter. If God existed as Christian doctrine teaches, the world of SR could not function the way it does.
| QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0) |
| If you roll well enough and have the right equipment, I see no reason not to. My Golden Rule is to ignore or allow rules as common sense dictates. Of course, my idea of common sense isn't always the same as others, so ask when in doubt. Anyone ever use near death religious experiences in game? I had one PC in a game I ran w/ Latenet Awakening that awakened after one. |
Game mechanically, Shadowrun has First Aid be too effective and people bleed to death too rapidly for that to actually come up. A normal human goes from an incapacitating wound to death in less than half a minute - which is all kinds of wrong.
So there really isn't the 4-6 minute sketchy zone in Shadowrun like there is in the real world. It's unfortunate.
-Frank
| QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0) |
| Which reminds me, something I've been meaning to birng up for some time. Hopefully this won't tangent too much. Has anyone ever used First Aid to bring someone back from past the brink? You know, defibulater, nanites, all that. Character is already dead ,then brought back? I ask because it seems like a logical way to do to survive death, without using HoG, and brings up the whole "Tunnel of Light" in to the game. |
I'm fairly certain that's one of the many abtractions that Overflow Damage and Stabilization Tests encompass. Once your Overflow runs out you're Completely Dead. Up until then you're just Mostly Dead.
Religion would go along as strong or stronger than ever.
Historically, religion has appealed strongly to the poor and powerless, and there are masses of them in Shadowrun. Additionally, magic has returned. So your rabbi, your imam, your priest can make you feel better about your marriage with Control Emotions, can heal your sick child with health spells, can reinforce the warriors of God with armor spells, can perform what they will absolutely believe to be miracles, gifts from Heaven. When God actually does strike down the unrighteous with fire from above, it will have a profound effect on faith.
Also historically, the major religions have rewritten themselves to one degree or another to adapt to changing times. There's no reason to think they won't do it again in the Sixth World. There's no reason to think that social institutions that have endured for thousands of years will come to a screeching halt just because of the Awakening. They didn't come to a screeching halt because of the Renaissance, or the American Civil War, or the atomic age, or the information age.
The Mideast material in Shadows Of Asia shows that Judaism and Islam are very powerful political forces there. Shadows Of Europe detailed the Vatican's influence.
The big three aren't going anywhere.
Historically, religion has appealed strongly to the poor and powerless, and there are masses of them in Shadowrun. Additionally, magic has returned. So your rabbi, your imam, your priest can make you feel better about your marriage with Control Emotions, can heal your sick child with health spells, can reinforce the warriors of God with armor spells, can perform what they will absolutely believe to be miracles, gifts from Heaven. When God actually does strike down the unrighteous with fire from above, it will have a profound effect on faith.
Also historically, the major religions have rewritten themselves to one degree or another to adapt to changing times. There's no reason to think they won't do it again in the Sixth World. There's no reason to think that social institutions that have endured for thousands of years will come to a screeching halt just because of the Awakening. They didn't come to a screeching halt because of the Renaissance, or the American Civil War, or the atomic age, or the information age.
The Mideast material in Shadows Of Asia shows that Judaism and Islam are very powerful political forces there. Shadows Of Europe detailed the Vatican's influence.
The big three aren't going anywhere.
Things I think everyone forgets:
1. The prohibitions on magic are not essential to Christian or Jewish belief. They can be seen rather as like the commandments to perform animal sacrifices in the Temple at Jerusalem - formerly applicable commandments, now no longer.
2.The only things that are essential to Christian belief? Well, admittedly from a Catholic PoV...It's all encapsulated in the Nicene Creed (with or without filioque clause).
3. Magic's exact nature is unknown - Mana could well be another force, like the Strong and Weak Nuclear Forces. Even Mentor Spirits do not disprove God's existence. They just prove that there are ethereal beings out there. Who might or might not be other gods.
4. If I remember my cycles of magic correctly...Wouldn't the 4th world be far, far, far outside the timeline for the Bible generally accepted anyway?
So, barring Blood Magic (which is ipso facto bad for obvious reasons!), how was there actual magic for the writers of the Tanakh to be condemning (rather than magic powered by what Christians might call Satan)?
1. The prohibitions on magic are not essential to Christian or Jewish belief. They can be seen rather as like the commandments to perform animal sacrifices in the Temple at Jerusalem - formerly applicable commandments, now no longer.
2.The only things that are essential to Christian belief? Well, admittedly from a Catholic PoV...It's all encapsulated in the Nicene Creed (with or without filioque clause).
3. Magic's exact nature is unknown - Mana could well be another force, like the Strong and Weak Nuclear Forces. Even Mentor Spirits do not disprove God's existence. They just prove that there are ethereal beings out there. Who might or might not be other gods.
4. If I remember my cycles of magic correctly...Wouldn't the 4th world be far, far, far outside the timeline for the Bible generally accepted anyway?
So, barring Blood Magic (which is ipso facto bad for obvious reasons!), how was there actual magic for the writers of the Tanakh to be condemning (rather than magic powered by what Christians might call Satan)?
Christianity being true does not disallow the Shadowrun universe. If anything, to the contrary, it would encourage it. Life is meant to be a test, the afterlife is a reward. Hence, with Shadowrun being more testing, it would be more appropriate for the greater plan, and I suspect the promise of an afterlife would be very appealing to many people.
However, again, from a literary point of view, Christianity is not conducive to a Cyberpunk setting. Cyberpunk is fundamentally tragic in nature, while a belief in a rational and compassionate God with the option of a just reward or punishment for each man is the absolute contradiction to tragedy. Hence, my SR world is not a Christian world solely because it robs the story of its reward for the audience, although there are Christians in it who, out of delusion or force, try to believe in a just God. I may throw in a character now and again who is truly faithful just to add the little ray of hope that maybe there IS something beyond this, but never enough for it to seem likely.
However, again, from a literary point of view, Christianity is not conducive to a Cyberpunk setting. Cyberpunk is fundamentally tragic in nature, while a belief in a rational and compassionate God with the option of a just reward or punishment for each man is the absolute contradiction to tragedy. Hence, my SR world is not a Christian world solely because it robs the story of its reward for the audience, although there are Christians in it who, out of delusion or force, try to believe in a just God. I may throw in a character now and again who is truly faithful just to add the little ray of hope that maybe there IS something beyond this, but never enough for it to seem likely.
| QUOTE |
| 4. If I remember my cycles of magic correctly...Wouldn't the 4th world be far, far, far outside the timeline for the Bible generally accepted anyway? |
If the cycles of magic could prove the earth is older than about 12,000 years, it would... well it probably wouldn't strike a blow against Fundamentalists because now there are two major competing theories on the age of the earth, which leaves plenty of space for a third. However, it is clear God existed before the bible, so that isn't a real threat. There is some question whether the rules that apply to us now would apply to people in the fourth world or not as well.
Solomon: If you read your own example closely, which is hard, I know, you will see that Simon's sin isn't doing magic, its thinking he can buy God's gifts. No mention of the devil is made... amazingly enough.
Eleazar: Strangely enough, I don't speak Hebrew, nor read it. So I'm stuck with OT versions of the story. And no, they never come out and say 'and God gave moses Magic... just like in Shadowrun'. Amazing that. However, a critical reading of the stories in Exodus has God granting Moses powers. MOSES... well, him and Aaron, do all sorts of stuff that could be considered Magical. They do it, yes, because God gave them the ability to do it. In my version, God does very little, actually, Moses and Aaron do it all.
More to the point, apparently they don't need Gods express permission to do it either. Moses summons water in the desert the second time, which gets him in trouble. Ergo: God doesn't summon the water, Moses does. Thus Moses has some sort of supernatural ability granted by God. For lack of a better term: Magic.
My inability to get ahold of an english parchement scroll and go through years of scholarly training on the subject of the Talmud makes my reading no less valid. It just means no one will be using it as doctrine any time soon.
*edited out potentially volatile comments about talmudic redacting*
Eleazar: Strangely enough, I don't speak Hebrew, nor read it. So I'm stuck with OT versions of the story. And no, they never come out and say 'and God gave moses Magic... just like in Shadowrun'. Amazing that. However, a critical reading of the stories in Exodus has God granting Moses powers. MOSES... well, him and Aaron, do all sorts of stuff that could be considered Magical. They do it, yes, because God gave them the ability to do it. In my version, God does very little, actually, Moses and Aaron do it all.
More to the point, apparently they don't need Gods express permission to do it either. Moses summons water in the desert the second time, which gets him in trouble. Ergo: God doesn't summon the water, Moses does. Thus Moses has some sort of supernatural ability granted by God. For lack of a better term: Magic.
My inability to get ahold of an english parchement scroll and go through years of scholarly training on the subject of the Talmud makes my reading no less valid. It just means no one will be using it as doctrine any time soon.
*edited out potentially volatile comments about talmudic redacting*
Nezumi: The way I play SR is perhaps less dystopian than some others, but still dystopian. I play within canon, but the way I'll emphasize it tries to keep it depressing without getting wrist-slashingly so.
But I do see Christianity as conducive to cyberpunk...Mostly as a ray of hope to keep the players from wanting to just off themselves, and as a voice in the wilderness. It is in cyberpunk as it (often) is in real life: A counterpoint to the prevailing culture.
People believe because religion is an anchor of stability in a very unstable and crazy world.
Mostly, life is shit. People are in the Sixth World as they are today, and the truly religious bring a tiny, tiny, tiny ray of hope to a very bleak setting. Unfortunately, even the religions are still composed of people, most of whom try to believe, desperately, but aren't going to stand up and fight the world. If they did, really did, they could topple the system, but few have that sort of courage.
As a Catholic: There are still Saints, though, and while the Church may have careerists and the over-ambitious and the like, it's no worse than it is today; you can still find holiness even at the very top.
The problem is that the Papacy is all too often a voice crying out alone in the wilderness. It preaches Life, when the surrounding culture is one of, by and large, death. It preaches the sanctity of life, when the surrounding culture believes anything but.
More generally: Life is cheap in the Sixth World, but not because those who care have stopped trying. The birth of babies is still a time of joy. The play of children is still a ray of hope.
Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose, really.
But I do see Christianity as conducive to cyberpunk...Mostly as a ray of hope to keep the players from wanting to just off themselves, and as a voice in the wilderness. It is in cyberpunk as it (often) is in real life: A counterpoint to the prevailing culture.
People believe because religion is an anchor of stability in a very unstable and crazy world.
Mostly, life is shit. People are in the Sixth World as they are today, and the truly religious bring a tiny, tiny, tiny ray of hope to a very bleak setting. Unfortunately, even the religions are still composed of people, most of whom try to believe, desperately, but aren't going to stand up and fight the world. If they did, really did, they could topple the system, but few have that sort of courage.
As a Catholic: There are still Saints, though, and while the Church may have careerists and the over-ambitious and the like, it's no worse than it is today; you can still find holiness even at the very top.
The problem is that the Papacy is all too often a voice crying out alone in the wilderness. It preaches Life, when the surrounding culture is one of, by and large, death. It preaches the sanctity of life, when the surrounding culture believes anything but.
More generally: Life is cheap in the Sixth World, but not because those who care have stopped trying. The birth of babies is still a time of joy. The play of children is still a ray of hope.
Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose, really.
You want dystopian future and religion? Give Nine Inch Nails' Year Zero a spin.
I can't wait for the movie.
I can't wait for the movie.
As an aside, didn't Solomon use demons to build his temple? That would certainly be Jewish support for conjuring (although not magic).
| QUOTE (nezumi) |
| As an aside, didn't Solomon use demons to build his temple? That would certainly be Jewish support for conjuring (although not magic). |
not unless that's in the apocrypha; i'm pretty sure (based on my memory of the old testament) that it was done using human labor. a lot of it.
| QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein) |
| Up until then you're just Mostly Dead. |
'Mostly Dead'. Got it. *Packs up a small collection of chocolate covered walnuts to save his 'Mostly Dead' teammates*
Hmm some POV's
Since the population of the SR world is reduced, the followers of the Abrahamist(Christian, Islam, Hebrew) will have have reduced numbers.
I see the so called minor religions having a greatly increased number of followers. Yes not as many as the total number of Abrahamist. But still not a number to be ignored.
I see alot of followers "coming out of the closet" in some cases the "broom closet" in the case of many wiccans an new agers.
Since the sigma/punishment of being not of the Abrahamist religious view is diminished or if not gone, a large portion of the so called followers of the Abrahamist's, will let their true religious preferences be seen and worshiped.
Who knows maybe some sects with in the Abrahamist's will bring out some of the Lost Books of the Bible and use those for form their own, version of religion, which in no way may resemble any current day Abrahamist religion.
As for the marriage types, one you have not mentioned is Polyamory, which basically means you love both male and female in what numbers you chose to. I know of current day "couple" he has male and female sexual partners and the "spouse" of the "couple" she has male and female sexual partners. Talk about genetic diversity.
I see the above as being more common in the SR world of 2070.
Besides in the NAN, the shamanistic types of faith would be growing alot larger than of today.
Due to what happened in Tehran, by a dragon, I also see the Abrahamist leaders being a bit more circumspect in their Fiat's. Nothing really puts a kink in your faith when a dragon overrules and slays your religious leader.
Since the population of the SR world is reduced, the followers of the Abrahamist(Christian, Islam, Hebrew) will have have reduced numbers.
I see the so called minor religions having a greatly increased number of followers. Yes not as many as the total number of Abrahamist. But still not a number to be ignored.
I see alot of followers "coming out of the closet" in some cases the "broom closet" in the case of many wiccans an new agers.
Since the sigma/punishment of being not of the Abrahamist religious view is diminished or if not gone, a large portion of the so called followers of the Abrahamist's, will let their true religious preferences be seen and worshiped.
Who knows maybe some sects with in the Abrahamist's will bring out some of the Lost Books of the Bible and use those for form their own, version of religion, which in no way may resemble any current day Abrahamist religion.
As for the marriage types, one you have not mentioned is Polyamory, which basically means you love both male and female in what numbers you chose to. I know of current day "couple" he has male and female sexual partners and the "spouse" of the "couple" she has male and female sexual partners. Talk about genetic diversity.
I see the above as being more common in the SR world of 2070.
Besides in the NAN, the shamanistic types of faith would be growing alot larger than of today.
Due to what happened in Tehran, by a dragon, I also see the Abrahamist leaders being a bit more circumspect in their Fiat's. Nothing really puts a kink in your faith when a dragon overrules and slays your religious leader.
| QUOTE (nezumi) |
| As an aside, didn't Solomon use demons to build his temple? That would certainly be Jewish support for conjuring (although not magic). |
Hmm does the terms Seals of Solomon ring a bell.
They have numbers, ie more than one Seal.He at least bound demons, ie did not destroy. If you can bind them why not use them of build with.
WMS: Thing is, many of the new faiths are less than 60 years old by 2070.
60 years old, in religious studies terms, is less than an eyeblink.
In addition: Yes, many faiths can flower after the Awakening...It's not especially likely, that said, for many to be able to grab hold outside the middle-class.
Which is the key, in many cases, to survival for a religion. If you only have the middle and upper classes, you may well just be a fad.
Get a good chunk of the lower class, and you have a chance of survival.
I don't see the Gaia churches, for example, resonating much with the lower class. They're infinitely more concerned with their survival, what happens after they die, etc. than the planet.
On *that* note...Okay, a *practical* question. Virtually -all- of the Abrahamic religions either mandate or heavily encourage burial of the deceased's remains. Islam requires it from what I remember. Judaism does as well. Christianity, various denoms vary on their stance, but it's generally encouraged if not mandatory.
So...Well, how the heck do they defend graveyards against shedim?
60 years old, in religious studies terms, is less than an eyeblink.
In addition: Yes, many faiths can flower after the Awakening...It's not especially likely, that said, for many to be able to grab hold outside the middle-class.
Which is the key, in many cases, to survival for a religion. If you only have the middle and upper classes, you may well just be a fad.
Get a good chunk of the lower class, and you have a chance of survival.
I don't see the Gaia churches, for example, resonating much with the lower class. They're infinitely more concerned with their survival, what happens after they die, etc. than the planet.
On *that* note...Okay, a *practical* question. Virtually -all- of the Abrahamic religions either mandate or heavily encourage burial of the deceased's remains. Islam requires it from what I remember. Judaism does as well. Christianity, various denoms vary on their stance, but it's generally encouraged if not mandatory.
So...Well, how the heck do they defend graveyards against shedim?
Many faiths adjusted to allow cremation, so long as you bury the ashes, it counts. Others just ward the hell out of their graveyards.
I'd think that faiths with interventionist deities that can wooed or bargained with would be more popular amongst the lower class, rather than less. Superstitions and folklore tend to remain amongst the general populace even when outlawed by the dominant church. This is especially true when you really can use ritual to summon spirits and deities and bargain with them.
Shedim should also have problems traveling through the earth, so if you bury bodies deeper, you prevent infestation. Related, concrete has become far more common (especially when the price of wood goes up) for coffins. I imagine a shedim inside a cement coffin ten feet under isn't going to do a lot of damage.
...but the poor pallbearers:(
It's less bad than having the deceased eat their brains/karma.
Maybe that's what drives the sale of cyberlimbs and muscle replacement.
@Penta who says those new religions are only 60 years old? Druidism dates from the BC era, Caesar wrote about them. Same thing for the Earth Mother, Gaia, Shamanism etc.
Again you are looking at it from a Western Abrahamist view.
Zoroster, and others existed prior to two of the three Abrahamist religions. Do not forget Mithras. Seems the Mithrans and one of the early forms of Abrahamist had war of extinction. It appears the Abrahamist won, but who wrote the history of that time? The Mithrans may still be out there, bidding their time, waiting for their moment.
By what you have said, seems that the lower classes in the far east would be majority Abrahamist, but they are not. In the Far East Abrahamist are not anywhere near a majority. Even though the lower class are just surviving.
Again you are looking at the future world thru current Western Abrahamist glasses.
Again one of the three Abrahamist religions had to adopt so called Pagan holidays to gain followers in Europe.
Again you are looking at it from a Western Abrahamist view.
Zoroster, and others existed prior to two of the three Abrahamist religions. Do not forget Mithras. Seems the Mithrans and one of the early forms of Abrahamist had war of extinction. It appears the Abrahamist won, but who wrote the history of that time? The Mithrans may still be out there, bidding their time, waiting for their moment.
By what you have said, seems that the lower classes in the far east would be majority Abrahamist, but they are not. In the Far East Abrahamist are not anywhere near a majority. Even though the lower class are just surviving.
Again you are looking at the future world thru current Western Abrahamist glasses.
Again one of the three Abrahamist religions had to adopt so called Pagan holidays to gain followers in Europe.
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
| The notion that one religion is somehow inferior to another because of the books chosen, however, can only be called intolerance. And that is just what the assertion that people who believe that The Book of Mormon is a divinely revealed or divinely inspired compliment to the Bible aren't really Christians is. |
Then all religion, by your warped definition, is "intolerant". Every religion is exclusive, and that includes syncretic ones like Hiinduism, which exclude the exclusivists. And someone who thinks all religion is false is just as guilty of "intolerance", if not more so.
| QUOTE (Glyph) |
| Then all religion, by your warped definition, is "intolerant". |
Hmm I would have to say practioners of all religions are interloerant.
Even christinanity has wonderful things such as:
He that is without sin among you, let him cast the first stone
and
Judge not, that ye be not judged
While all true practioner of any faith should lead a life of example and attempt to persuade / educate / instruct others of the errors; they almost all have provisions that say one must chose to follow (or not follow) and while in the end a higher power may judge the invidiual, it is not the place for a mortal to judge another.
Religons are (perhaps not all) tolerant of other religons.... practioners of religons on the other hand sometime overlook tenants of thier own beliefs and are very often very intolerant of other religons.
---------------------------------------------------------------
To keep this on topic:
Everything that happend in SR would cause major and significant change in peoples beliefs....
I doubt any of the religons that survived for hundreds or thousands of years are going to disappear.
Many will have wild flucuations in membership as some take it as 'proof' and other take it as proof that they are 'wrong', but they survived this long they will survive longer.
Sure 'doctrine' may have to change, but almost all doctrine is that of 'man' even in the case of those that are sworn to be exact replica's of the original writtings... language itself is not static...
2070 Shadowrun 'magic' means that which awakened humans, due... that is not necessarily the same thing that was proscribe a few thousand years earlier...
If you dont think words change meaning... I suggest you go into any rough and tumble bar in your neighborhood, find a group of motorcyclists that seem to be having a good time and say, "You all seem to be rather gay, mind if I join you?"
(warning do the above at your own risk, author denies all responsiblity for any damages done)
While deep religious debates have never been my scene (personally, I know right and I know wrong... I will strive to do right, and attempt not to do wrong.... another third party can not tell me what is right or wrong, or there is no such thing as free will); Words do change and even more importantly people try to change (often to their own benfit) the meaning of said world.
While I do not speak/read hebrew the current King James gives us:
Thou shalt not commit adultery
Now most will teach this as any sexual relations between two people not husband and wife is breaking the commandment; however adultery in english is a pretty straight forward word (in proper usage) and is specificaly the breaking of marriage vows by a partner. A married person having sexual relations with another person who is not their married partner.
If niether person is married it is not Adultery.
As to 'bible' doing magic... all Saints must have done three miracles.... if a miracle is not 'magic' I don't know what is:
Magic
"an extraordinary power or influence seemingly from a supernatural source"
supernatural:
"of or relating to an order of existence beyond the visible observable universe; especially : of or relating to God or a god, demigod, spirit, or devil"
Miracle:
"an extraordinary event manifesting divine intervention in human affairs"
So a miracle by definition is an extraordinary event (so to cause one, implies one has an extraordinary power or influence) granted by divine intervention. (well God (or a god) is one of the listed supernatural sources to allow one to posses a extraordinary power.... one would have to say by current usage of English language: Miracles = magic, they clearly meet both qualification (extraordinary power/influence and from a supernatural (divine) source).
It is clear that the 'magic' the practioners say their religon proscribe is clearly something else (witchcraft, sorcery, conjuration, invoking the devil/evil spirits, etc) or all of their Saints / holy figures are breaking their own religon.
Theologist in SR 2070, will likely do effectively the same thing:
Magic: (power granted by 'evil', worship of false gods, etc... etc..) is bad....
Magick however is the act of using a divine gift (same as free will and an opposable thumb) to inact change on the world. Magick is allowed or disallowed under the same criteria as any other action.
Magick to do work on the sabbath is forbbiden (since work on Sabbath is forbbiden. the Magick is irrelevant)
Magick to kill someone is forbbiden (since killing someone is forbbiden)
While you wuld have 'die hards' that would resist this, only the most fanatic of believers will hold to something when they see the oppoiste pretty much proven daily. (The (Holy Roman) church swore the earth was the center of the universe and Gaileo got in severe trouble for speaking otherwise ... yet once more and more people could 'prove' the earth rotated around the sun .. The church and peoples beliefs survived.
It is one of those areas, that (IMO) the developers have wisely avoided from giving 'too much' information on.
1) Causes to much problem is they say X...
2) It is a wonderful area GMs can develop the world to suit their (and their players) feel of the universe (and or comfort playing level).
| QUOTE (Zen Shooter01) |
| The big three aren't going anywhere. |
Sure, I can see how Hinduism is well placed for the Awakening, but how can you say with a straight face that Islam and Christianity aren't taking it in the balls?
Heck, Christianity is taking it in the neck right now with no Awakening. Current trends are looking at self-identified Christians falling to less than half of the United States before the 1st edition rulebok was set. Islam is on the rise, but in 2012 the claim that there aren't ever going to be any more prophets of Allah isn't really going to go over well.
---
The fact is that virtually any magician can do everything that Jesus, Elijah, Muhammed, Buddha, or Koresh was ever reported as doing. The great acts of the prophets of history, whether they ever really happened or not are simply not going to sound impressive to anyone born after the Sixth World has begun.
-Frank
| QUOTE |
| The fact is that virtually any magician can do everything that Jesus, Elijah, Muhammed, Buddha, or Koresh was ever reported as doing. The great acts of the prophets of history, whether they ever really happened or not are simply not going to sound impressive to anyone born after the Sixth World has begun. |
Which meta-magic allows one to save a soul? missed that in BBB or SM
In defense of the religons (ughh I hate this), its when times are darkest, things are bleakest, and the average person has the least to comfort them, that religons are usually the strongest.
Shadowrun 1st-4th is still a pretty bleak world for the SINless (or even average salaryman).
SR and dark ages have a lot of similarities...
Religon (any that a drowning person can grab on to) is going to grow in SR, not dwindle. Sure alot of the 'false' ones were use magic to prove the are real and grow, but so will the 'established ones'.
'The Church' has done a good job and absorbing every single culture heritage of its members into their 'canon' rest assured they would absorb the 6th age as well.
As 'percentage' of worshipers the 'big three' might slump a little since, all the little ones (or new ones) spring up and gain followers. But I wuold be willing to bet that the percentage of people in the world that are 'worshipers' go on a rise.
The richest of rich (I am a god, who cares about the rest)
Perhaps a few awakened would still doubt.. (am I a god, hmm I can do most of that stuff X did...)
but for the vast majority, they would need hope and perhaps a moral compass ,though they will 'belive' for the former.
When the Jesuit (for example) comes into the slums, and baptizes people (and a strong reasonable strength, cure disease / makeover spell or heck even nourish), people will be greatful .. greatful people are willing to belive. Even if 'others' claim to have the same power and could do it, first impressions are wonderful things ... the Jesuits saved my life, they most be right, sure that other guy could (why didnt he) and perhaps means right, but praise be to god for the Jesuits.
The religons will then have that wonderful challange of: widening their nets, to gather as many followers as posible ... while not allowing 'other religons' to be rigth also.
I am sure most will say 'Magick' is just a gift of thier god.
"Magick' done in the name of another God/belief/entity is: either a gift from an evil source OR blasphemous since it is giving another credit for god's gift.
"Magick' done strictly as 'Magick' with no religon overtones, will probably be tolerated by most (to allow people to belive), but with very strong encouragement to seek the consoul of the chruches elders to make sure one does not 'missue' the power.
Thus if the only health care the SINless can get is from a streetshaman, (unless said shaman 'preaches') the SINless isn't necesarily sining, so he can be a good little X. Now if he goes to a Y religon healer to be healed .... X church might frown (though for that matter Y church likely would frown unless they were trying to win a convert).
Religon has a huge role to play in SR .... though it most certainly is NOT the role of a commerical company to decide what role religon will play .... That comes into the way to senstive area, that is best left to invidiual groups, or risk economic fallout.
| QUOTE (Glyph @ Aug 16 2007, 09:04 PM) | ||
Then all religion, by your warped definition, is "intolerant". Every religion is exclusive, and that includes syncretic ones like Hiinduism, which exclude the exclusivists. And someone who thinks all religion is false is just as guilty of "intolerance", if not more so. |
There is a difference between being exclusive and being a Jackass.
"I" statements, not "you're the Antichrist" statements, are key in this regard.
Free Spirit cults will probably be popular in Fourth Edition due to the ability to grant magical powers to mundanes via a Spirit Pact.
While unlikely, there might also be a Universal Brotherhood revival at some point in the future. Rebranding Insect Spirits as divinity would be difficult, but not at all impossible.
| QUOTE |
| Which meta-magic allows one to save a soul? missed that in BBB or SM |
It's in Augmentation.
-Frank
| QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Aug 17 2007, 03:13 PM) | ||
It's in Augmentation. |
True, but ...
| QUOTE (FrankTrollman) |
| The fact is that virtually any magician can do everything that Jesus, Elijah, Muhammed, Buddha, or Koresh was ever reported as doing. The great acts of the prophets of history, whether they ever really happened or not are simply not going to sound impressive to anyone born after the Sixth World has begun. |
i don't know of many Christians who base their faith on stories about what Jesus could do. nobody says "why do i go to church? 'cos that Daniel dude walked around in a den of lions and didn't get eaten, man! i want that dude on my team!" the stories about miracles and such don't serve to entice people to faith, so the fact that lots of people can perform those miracles shouldn't have the type of impact you're talking about. if anything, it'd serve to reinforce the faith of those who believe--the fact that such feats are possible proves that the Bible isn't necessarily complete malarky.
| QUOTE (nezumi) |
| As an aside, didn't Solomon use demons to build his temple? That would certainly be Jewish support for conjuring (although not magic). |
This is a belief held by some Muslims. I know that Hammad (a guy I worked with last year) believes this.
---------
As a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, I find it interesting that my faith is called out so often on this topic ....
---------
I prefer to leave the specific details of each religion up to the GM. In most cases, I like the general outline provided by cannon; however, I'll tweak as required by the game I'm in.
Ah, Dark Dungeons. That really takes me back. Anyone wanting to do any kind of dark religious conspiracy in SR just needs to grab one of Jack Chick's tracts and change a few of the names.
Free spirit cults I can see, but I imagine they would tend to be secretive, since free spirits don't want to attract the attention of mages or other threats.
I think there was too much public hysteria over the Universal Brotherhood, but I could see insect spirits trying a similar tactic again. Insect spirits will always be able to appeal to loners and outsiders who want to "belong" - being part of a hive would be appealing to some people. But even more than free spirits, insect spirits would keep a low profile.
Anyone wanting to do any kind of dark religious conspiracy in SR just needs to grab one of Jack Chick's tracts and change a few of the names.Free spirit cults I can see, but I imagine they would tend to be secretive, since free spirits don't want to attract the attention of mages or other threats.
I think there was too much public hysteria over the Universal Brotherhood, but I could see insect spirits trying a similar tactic again. Insect spirits will always be able to appeal to loners and outsiders who want to "belong" - being part of a hive would be appealing to some people. But even more than free spirits, insect spirits would keep a low profile.
| QUOTE (FrankTrollman) | ||
It's in Augmentation. -Frank |
Damn it Frank! Your just lucky I'd finished my drink...
I suspect that Christianity will really fade in Britain, as it already is, Paganism is already the fastest growing religion in the UK, I can't help but feel the awakening will increase that trend.
| QUOTE (WearzManySkins) |
| @Penta who says those new religions are only 60 years old? Druidism dates from the BC era, Caesar wrote about them. Same thing for the Earth Mother, Gaia, Shamanism etc. |
And died a few hundred years after. Modern druidism is a fully modern religion inspired by writings of an ancient religion. I've not read anything to indicate we would be able to properly recreate it in SR, so we can only assume we'll have a new animistic religion based on what few bits we've recovered from archeology and ancient writings and call it Druidism.
Shamanism and Zoroasterism (that's probably not the right name, but you know what I mean) are ancient religions that'll probably survive. Shamanism we know flourishes. I'd be surprised if Zoroasterism did for the same reason it's not doing super well right now.
Until metaplanar creatures come over and begin recreating their old cults, I don't think we'll see a resurgance of any surviving ancient religions, with the exception of Shamanism. We will see the artificial recreation of those religions like Wicca, but those are about as related as the SR computer game is to the one true canon.
Ok, it seems some level of religious debate is already happening despite my intentions, so I feel I must comment. However, I would like to keep this to a minimum and I shall endeavor to remain polite. Ok?
Also, I'll be out of town a couple of days, so please don't expect quick responses.
Religious comments
Also, I'll be out of town a couple of days, so please don't expect quick responses.
Religious comments
| QUOTE (Eleazar) |
| All judeochristian religions believe, with possibly the exception of Islam, |
Islam is not a JudeoChristian religion, although it is an Abrahamic religion.
| QUOTE (Eleazar) |
| that such things are workings of the Holy Spirit; He can only be good. |
I disagree, as does the bible. Since YHVH = the Holy Spirit, he has obviously done evil (defined as harm) in a biblical context. Noah's flood is just one example.
| QUOTE (Eleazar) |
| The only close to magical tradition stemming from Jewish belief, is Kabbalah. This is a form of Jewish gnosticism, and I would call it more mystical than magical. |
According to all sources I have looked at, that is untrue. Qabbalism does include magical practice.
| QUOTE (Eleazar) |
| The only parts of the Bible that include non-divine magical powers are places like Exodus which deal with witchcraft. .... Non-divine magic is also not the best way to say it, because it implies that there might be divine magic. As a follower might say, the judeochristian God does not need to resort to such cheap tricks. ... Just noticed you said "which were used by righteous people". A righteous person would never use magic, whether divine or non-divine. For two reasons, there is no such thing as divine magic, and non-divine magic is satan's domain. Magic is synonymous to witchcraft in the judeochristian religions. I realize that some might say, "In the Bible God does wonders that one would consider magic by definition.". God works by is own power which is supernatural by nature. Supernatural power does not always mean magical. God's supernatural power does not use trickery, the sleight of hand, illusion, or any sort of manipulation of energy(mana) to work. He just wills it and it happens. As I stated previously, these are miracles, signs, wonders, and gifts. And no, these are not just some repackaged forms of magic under a different name. |
Please reference this discussion for a complete breakdown of these inaccuracies. Nightmare in that thread is me. If you wish, I will continue discussion on this issue there, but not on Dumpshock please.
| QUOTE (Eleazar) |
| No one in the judeochristian religion believes this way. Except maybe for people that reject wholly parts of the Bible. |
You should perhaps inform my girlfriend of this then, who is still a quasi-Catholic Christian and yet agrees with my stated views in the above noted thread.
| QUOTE (Jaid) |
| also, while their concept of hell may be different, it is my understanding that they do, in fact, have some concept of hell. though my understanding is admittedly incomplete on that matter... |
Sheol ("the grave") is the Jewish conception of the underworld. It is basically a state of oblivion IIRC, nothing like the Christian conception of hell.
| QUOTE (Solomon Greene) |
There will always be those who refuse to adapt - that's why we have Fundamentalists. |
Heh! Sweet! That's a keeper
| QUOTE (Glyph) |
| I've made this point before, but what I have a problem with is how easily they seem to have had any religion with "magic" in it accept the awakening, even if SR magic is nothing like their version of it. I would like to see, just once, something like a Wiccan hermetic mage who makes a distinction between his fireball-casting magic and his religion's "magic". Of course, magic being usually fueled by a belief system, and manifesting accordingly, would muddy the waters a lot. |
Considering that SR magic is based on real life magical theory (admittedly extrapolated to the point of superpowers typical of fantasy literature, yes) and conforms to the spirit and energy models of real life magical theory, I must disagree that SR magic is nothing like real life magic. The only differences in some cases are scope of ability and effectiveness (ie SR magic works in a visible and reliable manner, whereas RL magic does not).
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
| Divine inspiration cannot be bestowed by consensus. It either is divinely inspired or it isn't and no amount of human scrutiny can determine one way or another which is the case. |
How very true.
| QUOTE (Eleazar) |
If that was the case, anyone under God would be completely unaffected my magic or any other kind of witchcraft. There would be no need counterspelling for true Christians. God truly existing in Shadowrun as Christian's believe would be game brreaking. That is why he would resided on a metaplane and be some metaphysical entity. He would have a very different nature than the God the Christians of our world know. |
I have found that this is patently untrue in real life. Further, this assertion is like claiming "true" Christians cannot be hurt by bullets (or by drinking poison perhaps?) - reality and simple logic disproves it.
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| depends on who says it. if a Taoist said that Mormons aren't Christians, that would be insulting. any non-Mormon Christian who says that Mormons aren't Christians is just expounding on the tenants of his or her faith. |
As I said, in some cases insult is in the eye of the beholder.
| QUOTE (nezumi) |
| As an aside, didn't Solomon use demons to build his temple? That would certainly be Jewish support for conjuring (although not magic). |
It's in the Midrash IIRC.
| QUOTE (Glyph) |
| Then all religion, by your warped definition, is "intolerant". Every religion is exclusive, and that includes syncretic ones like Hiinduism, which exclude the exclusivists. And someone who thinks all religion is false is just as guilty of "intolerance", if not more so. |
Hardly warped. As you said, there is a difference between disagreement and intolerance - the line between them is drawn precisely when accusations start flying, and hyzmarca noted.
| QUOTE (laughingowl) |
| Which meta-magic allows one to save a soul? missed that in BBB or SM |
Can you prove that anyone's soul is saved by any religion?
------------------
Shadowrun comments
| QUOTE (nezumi) |
| Simply said, the story of Christianity (and of most other religions) does not fit into that setting. The idea of all men being inherently valuable to God and saved by faith, destined for a life of eternal paradise is contrary to the reality we're given as Shadowrun. |
The story of Christianity has a place, as much as it does in the real world. Christian theology as a reality though does not, for many reasons some of which you mentioned, some of which Eleazar mentioned.
It is good then that according to SR canon Christianity (and virtually every other religion) is patently untrue.
| QUOTE (Eleazar) |
| The fact that there has been 6 stages of magic would change things. I think different faiths altogether would have formed since magic from the previous 5 stages would have a large effect on the way man views the spirit and his philosophy of the world. In my opinion, having our current world religions seems incongruent to the Shadowrun setting. |
This is not publically accepted knowledge (although it is publically known) in the setting. Therefore, it would have little effect on the religious trends in the setting.
| QUOTE (Eleazar) |
| The future is unpredictable. It is very possible church attendance could go up. |
The future of our 1980's is the past in Shadowrun, an important thing to remember.
| QUOTE (Penta) |
| 1) What "magic" meant in two thousand years of tradition, and what it means when there are actually people chucking fireballs, may not be the same thing, even to theologians. Much of what was called magic could also be called, simply put, confidence schemes, medical quakery, or the like. |
Hmm, a very good point.
| QUOTE (Solomon Greene) |
It's hard to discuss the effect on religion as a whole because religion itself is so divisive. |
This is why you take it apart and examine one at a time. Obviously not something they have alot of room to do in the books.
| QUOTE (PlatonicPimp) |
| Someone else on this board and I once came up with a theory that the judeo-christian organized curches were under the sway of three very powerful shedim. They gained Karma by convincing their followers to fight holy wars. Every follower who died gave his Karma up to the spirit, and thus these three were able to gain enough spirit energy to survive the downcycle, albiet in weakened forms. |
Heh, I always liked that theory. Fits rather nicely
| QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0) |
| Which reminds me, something I've been meaning to birng up for some time. Hopefully this won't tangent too much. Has anyone ever used First Aid to bring someone back from past the brink? You know, defibulater, nanites, all that. Character is already dead ,then brought back? I ask because it seems like a logical way to do to survive death, without using HoG, and brings up the whole "Tunnel of Light" in to the game. |
I started a thread on this a while back, called Resuscitation IIRC.
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
| If Sam "Twist" Verner teaches you the Great Ghost Dance and you use it to beat up a Jesus and save the world from what is apparently the Second Coming what does that say about the nature of divinity? When beings who are old enough to have walked with the gods roam the earth in silence while the gods themselves remain unseen what does that day about divinity? |
ROFLMAO!!!!
| QUOTE (Draconis) | ||
Bah, he didn't. He was delusional. |
Then why can't Spider shaman summon "spider spirits" with Inhabitation anymore?
| QUOTE (FrankTrollman) |
| The fact is that virtually any magician can do everything that Jesus, Elijah, Muhammed, Buddha, or Koresh was ever reported as doing. The great acts of the prophets of history, whether they ever really happened or not are simply not going to sound impressive to anyone born after the Sixth World has begun. |
Very very true Frank. And since many view "miraculous" acts like this as the proof of their religious figures divinity or divine link, it would put quite a dent in that argument.
| QUOTE (FrankTrollman) | ||
It's in Augmentation. |
| QUOTE (nezumi @ Aug 17 2007, 08:09 AM) | ||
And died a few hundred years after. Modern druidism is a fully modern religion inspired by writings of an ancient religion. I've not read anything to indicate we would be able to properly recreate it in SR, so we can only assume we'll have a new animistic religion based on what few bits we've recovered from archeology and ancient writings and call it Druidism. Shamanism and Zoroasterism (that's probably not the right name, but you know what I mean) are ancient religions that'll probably survive. Shamanism we know flourishes. I'd be surprised if Zoroasterism did for the same reason it's not doing super well right now. Until metaplanar creatures come over and begin recreating their old cults, I don't think we'll see a resurgance of any surviving ancient religions, with the exception of Shamanism. We will see the artificial recreation of those religions like Wicca, but those are about as related as the SR computer game is to the one true canon. |
Again who says they are dead? Merely because you have not stumbled across anything by them to read.? Have you not ever heard of the Stregheria?
Many of the "supposed" dead ones, have continued on beyond their supposed death.
Yes alot of modern day Druidism, Wicca, etc are new inventions but not all.
Again merely because you have not read anything, does not mean it does not exist.
You may reading in the wrong circles.
Again I disagree, many would see a resurgence of such religions, again quit looking thru Abrahamist colored glasses.
| QUOTE (NightmareX) |
| I disagree, as does the bible. Since YHVH = the Holy Spirit, he has obviously done evil (defined as harm) in a biblical context. Noah's flood is just one example. |
where in the world did you get the idea that harm=evil? the Bible certainly never claims that. hell, Jesus himself used a whip on people that really pissed him off.
| QUOTE (Eleazar) |
| Supernatural power does not always mean magical. God's supernatural power does not use trickery, the sleight of hand, illusion, or any sort of manipulation of energy(mana) to work. He just wills it and it happens. |
for that matter, the Bible doesn't say anything like that, either. the Bible is mum on how exactly miracles work. as far as we know, God could have formed a spirit pact with his faithful to grant them all magic ratings.
WMS: There are something like 125 thousand Zoroastrians, at most 200 thousand as of 2001, with more dying than are being born. They discourage conversions and marriages with those of other religions, mostly cutting off that source.
They're not likely to survive into the 2070s, not at present rate of decrease.
You keep talking about 'Abrahamist colored glasses'. Well, I hate to tell you, but there are at least 1.9 billion Christians in 2007. (That's an estimate...The Christian churches in Africa and Asia usually keep poor records, so that may well be an undercount.)
There are somewhere between 0.9 and 1.4 billion Muslims.
And there are...18m Jews? Or something like that.
In short, there are, being -conservative- here, 2.8 -billion- 'Abrahamists' out there.
Nearly half (and we're being conservative, remember) of the world's population. (For completeness: Hinduism is somewhere around a billion. Counts very. China is a gigantic spot of 'Who the hell even knows?' because of the PRC's official atheism, effectively putting a billion or so people into the 'unable to classify' category.)
At that number, it's not 'Abrahamist colored glasses', it's the general perception of reality. And perception *is* nine-tenths of reality.
Sorry folks, but...Gah. That phrase seriously annoys me.
They're not likely to survive into the 2070s, not at present rate of decrease.
You keep talking about 'Abrahamist colored glasses'. Well, I hate to tell you, but there are at least 1.9 billion Christians in 2007. (That's an estimate...The Christian churches in Africa and Asia usually keep poor records, so that may well be an undercount.)
There are somewhere between 0.9 and 1.4 billion Muslims.
And there are...18m Jews? Or something like that.
In short, there are, being -conservative- here, 2.8 -billion- 'Abrahamists' out there.
Nearly half (and we're being conservative, remember) of the world's population. (For completeness: Hinduism is somewhere around a billion. Counts very. China is a gigantic spot of 'Who the hell even knows?' because of the PRC's official atheism, effectively putting a billion or so people into the 'unable to classify' category.)
At that number, it's not 'Abrahamist colored glasses', it's the general perception of reality. And perception *is* nine-tenths of reality.
Sorry folks, but...Gah. That phrase seriously annoys me.
| QUOTE (Isaiah 45:7) |
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. |
| QUOTE (Exodus 32:14) |
| And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people. |
| QUOTE (Judges 9:23) |
| Then God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech: |
| QUOTE (Kings 9:9) |
| And they shall answer, Because they forsook the LORD their God, who brought forth their fathers out of the land of Egypt, and have taken hold upon other gods, and have worshipped them, and served them: therefore hath the LORD brought upon them all this evil. |
| QUOTE (Kings 14:10) |
| Therefore, behold, I will bring evil upon the house of Jeroboam, and will cut off from Jeroboam him that pisseth against the wall, [and] him that is shut up and left in Israel, and will take away the remnant of the house of Jeroboam, as a man taketh away dung, till it be all gone. |
| QUOTE (Chronicles 34:24) |
| Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will bring evil upon this place, and upon the inhabitants thereof, [even] all the curses that are written in the book which they have read before the king of Judah: |
| QUOTE (Micah 1:12) |
| For the inhabitant of Maroth waited carefully for good: but evil came down from the LORD unto the gate of Jerusalem. |
| QUOTE (Amos 3:6) |
| Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it? |
Edit: Penta, you forgot to count the Bahá'í. That's a couple million more Abrahamists worldwide.
But, one thing to remember is that people who checked a box on a census form or signed up for a week and never came back far outnumber active practitioners and this fact is ture of all religions.
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