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Malicant
So, we never got a major insight in what happend in Asia. No one cared. Tir does not get 15 minutes of fame, a cry of outrage rocks the masses. Weird.

There is only so much you can deliver on limited space in limited time. Even if I cared about Tir, I still fail to see how that has to do with poor plotting. It's fucking Luxemburg. But larger, granted, with pointy ears and a dragon keeping them in check. No matter what happens, it does not have a major impact on the world, so there is no reason to elaborate the matter until, well, later, whenever that might be.

Poor plotting is something completly diffrent.
arathian
It is kind of annoying that because I didn't read Runner Havens closely enough I now have a Tir Count Johnson that I am not sure how to explain. I suppose it is possible that some of the gentry found a way into the Star Chamber now that it is relevant, and retain honorary titles. But if the entire gentry was purged along with the Princes this is really hard to explain.

Portland is close to Seattle and probably the most important sister city for the Shadow trade, so major developments there should get more attention in the books. Some of the characters that I play and in the game I am running are Tir SINners or have ties there. The idea of a more democratic Tir is interesting, but a change this major deserves more discussion in the canon history.

Not to derail the thread, but I tend to think of the Tir as being similar to Israel.
Malicant
Israel is a pretty good comparison.

Also, don't sweat the details of your Johnson. How important is it for him to beeing an actual count? He can be the equivalent in the new government. Also, I would not be surprised if there are still counts and princes in Tir. Napoleon was a king, too after all wink.gif
Whipstitch
QUOTE (martindv @ Feb 10 2008, 11:33 PM) *
That would require reading posts and not being a jerk.


Okay, with the way you put that I'm not sure if you're taking a shot at me or Malicant, but either way I don't really appreciate it.
Malicant
I assumed it was directed at me. Although I read the posts I snipe at, I'm still a jerk, so it's fair with me.
Whipstitch
Alrighty. I was stepping out of line myself there anyway; it's not like I'm a mod. As long as no harm's done.
nathanross
QUOTE (Malicant @ Feb 10 2008, 10:45 PM) *
So, we never got a major insight in what happend in Asia. No one cared. Tir does not get 15 minutes of fame, a cry of outrage rocks the masses. Weird.

There is only so much you can deliver on limited space in limited time. Even if I cared about Tir, I still fail to see how that has to do with poor plotting. It's fucking Luxemburg. But larger, granted, with pointy ears and a dragon keeping them in check. No matter what happens, it does not have a major impact on the world, so there is no reason to elaborate the matter until, well, later, whenever that might be.

Poor plotting is something completly diffrent.

The problem with not getting info on what happened in the Tir is that the Tir is only within SR, and has been Developed along with the SR canon. However, they decided to drop it without tying it up. That is the issue. Its not that it is more or less important than any other place in the world, just that the Developers have more responsibility to take care of the loose plotlines they themselves left there. That is all.
Malicant
That's right, but doesn't change the fact that there is only a limited amount of books and every book has only a limited amount of space. Tir obviously is not deemed importent enough to replace any of the stuff that has been delivered recently. Although I would have preferred Tir over Haffners death aka the not-coup-d'etat in System Failure. This part was kind of pointless. To me at least. Even less than Tir could have been. Now that I think about it, even Poland is in there. Tir Tairngire got some serious cold shoulder here biggrin.gif

No matter what happend in Tir, it has no impact what so ever on the rest of the world, so I still don't really care. I'd like to read the novel though. But I don't believe there are any new SR novels on the horizon.
Whipstitch
I agree with that Nathanross is saying to an extent; I think the devs will get around to clarifying what happened with the Tir a bit or at least how it's currently run at some point, so I'm not terribly worried but I do agree that once you've opened a can of worms and then shut it's best to let people know some details. As far as the Asia example goes, I've actually always been terribly interested in what went on over there, but there's been precious little information on that front so I've never really played a game there (Japan notwithstanding). With TT, on the other hand, many of us have been given enough information to do things with it and are now uncomfortably aware that the old information we've been working with is somewhat outdated. Basically, what I'm saying is "out of sight, out of mind."
FrankTrollman
QUOTE
It's bad writing, man. Just accept it. I mean, I read your comments about working for the line. What do you care about defending this nonsense after you took a giant steaming dump on the developers in the Feral Cities thread?


No. I'm not going to just accept it. I am a very opinionated person. I am blunt to the point of being offensive. And I give credit where credit is due. Heck, I think there's probably something wrong with you personally if all you saw in the Feral Cities thread was me "taking a dump on the developers." The description of the overthrow of Tir Tairngire is not bad writing. Historicaly it has a lot of similarities to real events in many different countries.

What it is, is word count limited. It would be nice to have several more paragraphs about the new legislation coming out of the new Star Chamber and resultant international relationships. But living as I do in a post-Soviet Bloc nation I can tell you that it honestly isn't that important what exactly is going on at the top. You can hand out local flavor of elves tenaciously holding onto old racist ideals in the face of the new regime, of royalty pooling their money to try to re-instate the old regime (or something very much like it with them in charge), and so on and so forth. The people described in the old Tir writeups are still alive. You can still talk to them even after the iron curtain has come down. The buildings in Portland are still there even after they tore down the wall. Check Point Charlie is probably a museum of royalist abuse now, but yo don't really need a whole new book to tell you that.

Exhaustively describing a town at a point in time requires a whole book. But from there you can honestly use that location fairly well as long as you're told what the major world and local social events are.

If you want to talk about a major setting that actually got nuked by bad writing: Denver. Even the city streets got set on fire and Godzilla nonsensically managed to cock slap the strongest army on the planet by himself. And then the entire city was replaced by a dragon cult. That made things unplayable, because the stuff you would interact with is gone.

In Tir Tairngire the stuff you'd personally be interacting with (people, places, law enforcement) is still there. You can still use the setting.

-Frank
Malicant
QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Feb 11 2008, 06:59 AM) *
That made things unplayable, because the stuff you would interact with is gone.

What stuff? Now I'm curious and have the impression I missed something.
arathian
It would be nice to know if the new Star Chamber policy towards Aztlan is Detente.
Whipstitch
I'll give you the short version Malicant: Denver was a setting with a splat book in 2nd edition and everything as well as some face time in books about the NAN and UCAS politics in general, making it a pretty darn good place to run some games. Then YOTC came out in 3rd edition and Ghostwalker showed up in Denver. So he basically flew over and was all like "Rarrr!" and the Azzies were like "Oh shit! No you didn't!" and then Ghostwalker was like "Oh yes I did!" and pretty much took over the city via sheer brute force, destroying the Azzie headquarters and several other large buildings in the process, facing down a few militaries and eventually banishing an entire megacorporation from Denver, despite said mega having an entire country at it's beck and call as well as some dragons of their own. Of course, since he's a GD, his motives are mysterious and all that other bulldrek so this basically means nothing at all to your average scrappy team of PC shadowrunners other than "Oh, btw, a dragon now rules the city and we fuck know all about what's going on, but try not to let that distract you as you go about your petty non-epic business." I mean, I guess you could work around it mid-campaign, but GD invasions tend to have a funny way of overshadowing other events. If you were playing a longrunning campaign or on a MUX environment, the best option was simply ignore or postpone the event from ever happening entirely, which isn't exactly the best quality to have in a fluff book.
Malicant
Ok, so I didn't miss anything. To me it was fairly reasonable that he was able to kick out Aztech, since he used the CAS military to do so. And no Azzie dragon I know of is remotly in the same leage as him. Also, I don't think his motives go much beyond "they mess with blood magic and horrors, and are run by other dragons. GTFO of my domain" He is super conservative. And his rule not having any real impact is still no big deal, the title Doll Maker is not exactly honorary. So, I don't have any problem with Denver past Ghostwalker.

Phew, glad I didn't miss anything.

Also, I liked the Gojira stunt he pulled.
Fuchs
Ghostwalker taking over a city by brute force is something I ignored. I usually consider any Dragon taking part in open warfare with military assets on the field dead meat - even GD get lots of new holes where there shouldn't be when things made to take down tanks and supersonic airplanes open up on a flying lizard.

But then, if I wanted to follow canon more closely, I would simply assume Ghostwalker did the take over all sneaky like, manipulating the CAS to get them to kick out Aztlan, and laying the groundwork for a Dragon Cult in Denver years before this, pulling strings of human politicians until he could reveal himself, possibly after some natural disaster or fire, appearing as a saviour.

There, all settled - Denver taken over, canon restored, yet the history was different. But if anyone wanted streets on fire for their background, possible. If anyone wanted to blame/praise the dragon for kicking out Aztlan - possible.

But, that aside: Am I really the only one who saw the old Crater Lake entry in the TT sourcebook, and then planned a run about it, inventing a plot nad history? Did everyone else say "oh, let's not touch this until we know what happened there"?

Am I the only one who sees and uses plot hooks and possibilities where others see holes? I can't beleive that's the case.
Critias
QUOTE (Malicant @ Feb 10 2008, 10:45 PM) *
So, we never got a major insight in what happend in Asia. No one cared. Tir does not get 15 minutes of fame, a cry of outrage rocks the masses. Weird.

Seattle to Hong Kong: ~6500 miles.

Seattle to Portland: ~125 miles.

Yeah. You're right. It's really weird that people are more interested in what happened just a few hours away from what's, historically, been the center of the Shadowrun universe instead of the goings-on of weird little yellow people half a world away.

And -- again -- it's not the "15 minutes of fame." It's that it got 20 minutes of fame, and then got 10 minutes of that fame made obsolete.

It's frustrating to get sourcebooks (and chapters of other sourcebooks) detailing a place, and then to suddenly have it be dropped except for a steaming pile of retcon poop. If the Tir had never been fleshed out, no one would care right now. We could run our games however we wanted, we could imagine whatever mix of cyberpunk and fantasy we wanted to imagine for it. If we didn't have sourcebooks, novels, and more sourcebooks piquing our interest (and giving us character hooks), we could just hand-wave whatever we wanted into the Tir (the way folks seem just crazy about doing), and the recent upheaval wouldn't matter in the slightest.

As it is, though, we got a bunch of information, and now -- as of five years ago, game time -- none of that information is really useful any more. It's not that we can't fill in gaps, make up NPCs, etc, etc. It's that we don't fucking want to, after we've paid good money for sourcebooks (and gotten used to sourcebooks) doing a good bunch of that for us (and when we know a sourcebook will come along again sometime in the future and re-write all of it anyways).

But, at this point, I think it's safe to say folks are just talking past one another. If you don't understand the frustration, good for you. Run your games how you want to, run the Tir how you want to, and have fun. I'm tired of repeating myself and having to justify irritation to people who want to tell me I'm not allowed to be dissatisfied by a lack of information in a product I paid good money for (on a discussion board, of all places, where discussions are supposed to happen).
Malicant
Considering the armor rating of a GD and adding lots of magic defenses, no there is not much that can actually kill a GD. Open Warfare is something they avoid because of the mess, not because they suck at that.

Also, Ghostwalker beeing all sneaky like, espacially using a cult as pawns is something he sucks at (by Dragon standarts). Doll Maker, not Doll Master or Controller. I can't imagine he is even remotely proud of that title.

I think they chose the right dragon for this. He likes to meddle, but he lacks finesse or wisdom to pull it all sneaky behind the scenes if rushed.

QUOTE
Yeah. You're right. It's really weird that people are more interested in what happened just a few hours away from what's, historically, been the center of the Shadowrun universe instead of the goings-on of weird little yellow people half a world away.

Yeah, right. I don't see a bunch of info about Vancouver, being way more accessible than Tir to a shadowrunning group. I'd actually care more about what hapend is Asia, the NAN, or even Africa than any Tir. Tir kicked every corporation out of it's borders. I don't expect them to return just because the elves are all fuzzy know. So, no real shadow business for me to see there.
Fuchs
I don't consider 20 points of hardened armor be enough to stop weapons made to destroy MBTs.
Malicant
I did mention the Magic part, did I? Double that armor at least to get an idea of brute force needed to make a dragon stop and think for a moment. After the moment he will of course magicaly tac nuke the assailant. Alamais was hit by a orbital laser. By surprise. He survived and he's pretty much a sucker power wise on the GD scale. By canon, GDs are not fun to meddle with without major mojo. They can twist goddam fate. "Oh, that would have killed me. Nah, don't think so, try again until you fail."
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (Malicant @ Feb 11 2008, 04:39 AM) *
By canon, GDs are not fun to meddle with without major mojo. They can twist goddam fate. "Oh, that would have killed me. Nah, don't think so, try again until you fail."

By Canon, Great Dragons are horribly over rated. Actual high end military weaponry blows them away. They are as tough as an APC designed for riot duty and cast like Grade 6 Initiates. So what?

And Chicoaze and Inti Jiwana are no slouches either.

-Frank
Fuchs
I completely disagree with the idea that the Tir was the center of the SR universe. The Tir was geographically close to Seattle (which was the center of the game universe), but at the same time had all that "closed border", "closed economy", "hate any non-elves" thing. I ran campaigns in Seattle for years, and the Tir did not figure in them very often because it was so walled-off, and because there was not much there to interest my runners. Not to mention that there was Salish-Siddhe between the Tir and Seattle.
The rest of the world was much more accessible than the Tir, and closer too, counting travel time. Given the trouble and time a trip to the Tir would have taken, Asia, Africa and Europe were neighbours to Seattle compared to the Tir.
Fuchs
QUOTE (Malicant @ Feb 11 2008, 09:39 AM) *
I did mention the Magic part, did I? Double that armor at least to get an idea of brute force needed to make a dragon stop and think for a moment. After the moment he will of course magicaly tac nuke the assailant. Alamais was hit by a orbital laser. By surprise. He survived and he's pretty much a sucker power wise on the GD scale. By canon, GDs are not fun to meddle with without major mojo. They can twist goddam fate. "Oh, that would have killed me. Nah, don't think so, try again until you fail."


If the military wants a Dragon in their airspace dead, then it's dead. Magic or no magic. That the authors of SR have no clue about weapons we already know. The only thing that makes GD so powerful in canon is the author's "because I say so!!!!!"
Malicant
Wait, wai,t wait. So, you acuse the writers of claming GDs are uber although they are not? That does not make any sense at all. The only thing that is really messed up is their attributes and magic rating, but in the SR universe it has been decided they kick butt and depopulate entire cities for lulz. So, they do, and the only thing able to stop them is people who really know their weaknesses and other dragons. Not the military waving the largest guns.

So no, they are bye no means over rated. They just lost statwise from edition to edition. Just because crunch fails to deliver does not mean GDs suck.
Fuchs
QUOTE (Malicant @ Feb 11 2008, 10:21 AM) *
Wait, wai,t wait. So, you acuse the writers of claming GDs are uber although they are not? That does not make any sense at all. The only thing that is really messed up is their attributes and magic rating, but in the SR universe it has been decided they kick butt and depopulate entire cities for lulz. So, they do, and the only thing able to stop them is people who really know their weaknesses and other dragons. Not the military waving the largest guns.

So no, they are bye no means over rated. They just lost statwise from edition to edition. Just because crunch fails to deliver does not mean GDs suck.


In the earlier editions, GDs sucked even more. In SR1 (and to a degree in 2), I never brought any Great Dragon in play because my players would have simply wasted it by spending 20+ saved up karma each (our "life saver reserve") to buy successes.

And yes, I accuse the writers of portraying Dragons as physically uber without any shred of logic. I can only assume they never had any military experience, and treat the military as rent-a-cops with assault rifles (kind of like the US army got portrayed in "Godzilla"). No idea what exactly modern weapons, and don't even mention future weapons, can do when used properly.

Not to mention that after 40+ years of knowledge about Dragons every army on earth would know how to handle Dragons, and be prepared for it. When tanks appeared on the battlefield it did not take half as long for counters to be developped.

The idea that any Great Dragon can face up toe to toe against a modern military is ludicrous and an insult to (meta)humanity.
Critias
QUOTE (Fuchs @ Feb 11 2008, 04:10 AM) *
I completely disagree with the idea that the Tir was the center of the SR universe.

Yeah? Me too. It's a good thing no one's fucking said that, huh?
Fuchs
Yeah, I misread it. So, read it as "I disagree that the Tir ever was a neighbor to Seattle in any other sense than geographical distance", since for all practical purposes, it was on the other end of the Earth compared to jsut about every other country.
Synner
To clarify my previous post and hopefully put some fears at rest, the Shadowrun developers recognize the importance of the Tir (and its powers-behind-the-throne) in the overall setting and in the context of the Sixth World North Am in particular. We currently have other material, we'd like to explore and expand on before we get back to it though. However, the Tir is, by nature, saddled with a huge amount of bagage that we have no intention of unloading on new fans just yet.

We do plan on revisiting the nation sometime in the future though. There seems to be some confusion, however, as to what that will entail. We will not be retconning any of the continuity since System Failure. Any material we publish will focus on the overall situation of the country in 207x. You will likely get coverage of the regime change, and we will undoubtedly highlight the major changes, the new faces, lots of rumors about what really went down, and what is known of the current status (207x) of some old luminaries - what you won't be getting is a play-by-play of the revolution, a detailed walk-through of the 5 year gap, or any hard facts and major retconning.

We've mentioned this on numerous ocassions, but it bears repeating: we have no intention of fully retconning the 5 year gap between editions. It was introduced for a purpose and it will continue to fulfill that goal. That isn't to say we won't be adding dates and essential details, but we will be preserving this blurry interval as much as possible so anyone who wants can do with it what they want - in short we intend to provide a beginning (the Crash 2.0 and fallout) and an end point (in this case, the Tir in 207x). Meanwhile, for those that really must have them, details will be emerging in other books (such as the references in Runner Havens and now Corporate Enclaves)
Fuchs
Sounds good. Just - please! - keep the Tir grounded, and less of the "it got pointy ears, it's better than everything else" realm of fantasy it was in the earlier editions. Having the country and its relics in charge fall, and fall hard, was one of the best things of the SR4 fluff.
martindv
QUOTE (Malicant @ Feb 10 2008, 10:45 PM) *
So, we never got a major insight in what happend in Asia. No one cared. Tir does not get 15 minutes of fame, a cry of outrage rocks the masses. Weird.

There is only so much you can deliver on limited space in limited time. Even if I cared about Tir, I still fail to see how that has to do with poor plotting. It's fucking Luxemburg. But larger, granted, with pointy ears and a dragon keeping them in check. No matter what happens, it does not have a major impact on the world, so there is no reason to elaborate the matter until, well, later, whenever that might be.

Uh... Shadows of Asia?

It may not have a major impact on the world (debatable). It has a huge impact on Seattle and the Pacific Northwest. That is important because as I said earlier until recently Seattle was the center of the Shadowrun universe.

Westchester County exploding doesn't have a global impact in the Marvel Universe. But seeing as though it's right next to Manhattan, which is the center of the MU, and home of the X-Men it does have a major impact on events that are covered in the universe simply by virtue of proximity. Stamford, CT blowing up doesn't have a global impact until it tears the MU apart. And it so happens that's what happened.

I'm not begrudging you, Synner. Your predecessors perhaps. For allowing it to get to this weird point. Although sometimes I wish the last two chapters of System Failure just didn't exist. And sometimes I pretend they don't. It's too much of a disconnect from the rest of the book, which is really good.

QUOTE (Synner @ Feb 11 2008, 04:40 AM) *
We will not be retconning any of the continuity since System Failure.

I don't expect you to. As I said, it already happened. That plot hook paragraph in System Failure was the Tir's "Brand New Day!" splash page, except without a million easter eggs drawn into the page by the editor-in-chief whose decision it was to effectively treat the last ten years as if it never happened because he's the boss and his word goes. Comparing it the that page is actually rather disingenuous because everything in that picture has multiple meanings from the level of champagne in each glass to where characters are looking and wearing. The paragraph in SF is pretty straightforward aside from the big surprise being that the client the PCs are bodyguarding (let me repeat that, because it seems kind of important. The PCs are hired to bodyguard Lugh Surehand) is the former High Prince now being hunted by Tir Ghosts.
Fuchs
QUOTE (martindv @ Feb 11 2008, 10:47 AM) *
Uh... Shadows of Asia?

It may not have a major impact on the world (debatable). It has a huge impact on Seattle and the Pacific Northwest. That is important because as I said earlier until recently Seattle was the center of the Shadowrun universe.

Westchester County exploding doesn't have a global impact in the Marvel Universe. But seeing as though it's right next to Manhattan, which is the center of the MU, and home of the X-Men it does have a major impact on events that are covered in the universe simply by virtue of proximity. Stamford, CT blowing up doesn't have a global impact until it tears the MU apart. And it so happens that's what happened.


What exactly was the impact the Tir had on the Shadowrunners of Seattle? Other than being a walled-off place with no business? Compared to, say, the pacific prosperity group being formed, the arcology being shut down, new megacorps rising, old megacorps falling, and a mob war tearing the town up? All of which is connected to asia much more than to Tir.
Malicant
I really hate to derail the topic once more, but, how the hell does your logic work with saying dragons are not uber, because the designers know squat about military? WTF? They are magical creatures not exactly bound to RL logic, right?

If the devs say, they are uber, than that is a simple truth inside of SR and no matter how military works, it will not change the fact that every waepon known to man is but a sting to a GD if that is the intention. Serioulsy.

but, back on topic
QUOTE
Uh... Shadows of Asia?

Oh, sorry, I forgot SoA is a Fourth Edition book. Oh, right. It isn't. My claim is still true. We know squat about Asia in 2070 and I consider them way more important compared to some pointy ear retreat.
Fuchs
QUOTE (Malicant @ Feb 11 2008, 11:04 AM) *
I really hate to derail the topic once more, but, how the hell does your logic work with saying dragons are not uber, because the designers know squat about military? WTF? They are magical creatures not exactly bound to RL logic, right?

If the devs say, they are uber, than that is a simple truth inside of SR and no matter how military works, it will not change the fact that every waepon known to man is but a sting to a GD if that is the intention. Serioulsy.


The way Dragons are described, both in the fluff and in game stats, does simply not portray them as being as uber as the mentioned deeds require, especially as beating the military requires. "It's magic" won't work since even magic has rules.

It's like reading someone describe some ultra-resistant ultra-thin material, making an armor vest from it, and then writing how a man wearing the armor vest can take a 75 mm shell to the chest and survive and keep standing since it does not penetrate - and completely forgetting that the kinetic energy alone would flatten the man, penetration or not penetration. It would have been fine to take pistol, maybe even rifle fire, but cannon shells are a different class altogether.

That's how Dragons look to me, compared to the military: They are written as tough, but the devs don't understand how tough one has to be to withstand to military force. So they end up writing the military as incompetent (indirectly, since they rarely if ever describe actual military in action).

To restate: The idea that any military on the north american continent, 40 years after Teheran burned, can't handle a Great Dragon is stupid. They would have prepared for it, and have developped tactics that can handle a Great Dragon - even if you really want to believe that a 120 mm sabot would bounce off a Dragon.

Or, to sum it up: The writers seem to follow the "Godzilla in New York" school of thought, aka "Hey, I know, let's fire with small arms and grenade launchers at that HUGE FREAKIN' LIZARD, and leave our tanks, artiellery, and other heavy weapons at home! Yeah, that'll work!"

Real military is more than a bunch of soldiers with assault rifles.
Fortune
QUOTE (Fuchs @ Feb 11 2008, 08:51 PM) *
What exactly was the impact the Tir had on the Shadowrunners of Seattle?


I guess it depends on your games. Why do people have to play the game your way, using only the plot hooks that you like? Why can't they use the rest of the world, especially when it is provided for you.

Oh, and if you think there was no business to be done in the Tir, on many different levels, then I think you are sadly mistaken.
Fuchs
I don't think everyone has to play like I do, but I also don't think everyone has to play like you do.

Although I don't get why you think I don't use the world - I use it, even more since I don't wait on official sourcebooks before venturing in a region.

But I am curious how much the Tir, canon-wise and in actual games, did impact Seattle, since that is what was claimed in the thread. So, it wasn't a rhethorical question.
Malicant
QUOTE
"It's magic" won't work since even magic has rules.

Uh, well. It has. But Dragons have diffrent rules. They need a spell that levels a city? No problem. They need a bunch of volcanos to erupt? Done. They need to turn a wasteland into a Jungle? Yep, again, impossible, but done.

So, what was that, their magic won't work?

Also, "Twist goddam Fate" they rewrite te very fabric of reality at will, so to speak. I fail to see how that is not entirely uber.

QUOTE
but the devs don't understand how tough one has to be to withstand to military force.

Please, Sun Tzu, explain to me, how though do you need to be?

QUOTE
To restate: The idea that any military on the north american continent, 40 years after Teheran burned, can't handle a Great Dragon is stupid.

No it isn't. They know sqat about them. A military incapable of reclaming a single building in Seattle does not seem much a threat to an ancient spell slinger that does not care much for established rules in magic. You cannot defeat an enemy you don't know anything about, beside the fact they are ultra smart, wield magic you don't understand and destroy cities as past time. On the other hand will the dragon know the tactics and weapons used by those pesky military guys. Seems very simple to me, it does.

QUOTE
Real military is more than a bunch of soldiers with assault rifles.

Sure it isn't, but only airborne units are capable of beeing a threat to a dragon. Oh, gimme that missiles. Heat up them Miniguns. NOT impressive.
Anything on the ground is sitting ducks. Sure, if the dragon falls into a turpor they can start tossing ICBMs at it, but that's not going to happen.


Your problem is simple. You don't like the idea of dragons and are incapabel of accepting that something might be stronger than a military that got it's ass handed down by a bunch of indians.

My problem is, I like magic. That's for me the single most defining trait of SR. And dragons are the Paragon of magic in SR. I like them.

Also, Dragons are not Lizards. They aren't even Mortal by any sense. They are watered down Horrors from another plain of existance.
As to date, only 2 GDs died. One was killed by another GD, the other offed himself. That's quite a statement.
Fuchs
By the rules, magic is not that uber compared to technology. Especially not where brute force is concerned. Railguns, artillery, bombs, drones loaded with explosives and so on. Miniguns? A 20mm vulcan "not impressive"? A 35 mm oerlikon not impressive? a 120 mm sabot?

How often can a dragon spend edge to twist fate before it runs out? And how many bullets, shells, drones and missiles can the military lob at Dragons? And the Dragon is the sitting duck, compared to jets.

Now take the Aztlan military, backed up by mages, and it becomes simple "dragons are uber cause we say so, nyha nyah nyah" reasoning.

Really, either you have the military as rent-a-cops with assault rifles, or you have dead dragons. Or you have a dragon behind the the CAS military force, and being very, very careful where to venture, and where the ECM is working. That I could see.

But a GD taking on the military in open warfare and winning? Sorry, not buying it.
Fortune
QUOTE (Fuchs @ Feb 11 2008, 09:41 PM) *
I don't wait on official sourcebooks before venturing in a region.


Neither do I, which is the root of the problem. There is info out there, and it is years out of date. We know that updated info is forthcoming, but are frustrated in the meantime.

But as with Critias, I have explained my position numerous times, and feel no need to have my concerns belittled any further. This used to be a place where you could discuss stuff related to Shadowrun, instead of being told that your concerns and opinions are irrelevant.
Malicant
QUOTE
Now take the Aztlan military, backed up by mages, and it becomes simple "dragons are uber cause we say so, nyha nyah nyah" reasoning.

Very good example, since that is actually happening. Without dragons dying, of course. With lot's of military getting mushed.

QUOTE
By the rules, magic is not that uber compared to technology.

Sure. Btw, there is a chapter on magic in the BBB. You should read it, before progressing into Shadow Magic. Than you can return to the techpart and are allowed you feel ashamed of what the military cannot do.

QUOTE
Really, either you have the military as rent-a-cops with assault rifles, or you have dead dragons.

That's just a bunch of crap. Pure and simple.

QUOTE
Railguns, artillery, bombs, drones loaded with explosives and so on. Miniguns? A 20mm vulcan "not impressive"? A 35 mm oerlikon not impressive? a 120 mm sabot?

I wan't to see how you use a railgun on something that is further away that 50km from a ship mounting that weapon. Artillery? Your credibility check just zeroed, followed by bombs it goes in the negative. And drones? Like, suicide drones? With explosives doing damage 15 tops? Yawn vulcan = not impressive. 35mm? still boring. 120mm? Now we're talking. But as long as I compare damage codes, only the Railgun has a chance. And that is compared to the run of the mill, I'm not yet a mage, not even initiated GD.

Big, long Yawn.

What was your point? Military sucks? Yes, proven, thank you. Move along citizen.

Critias
QUOTE (Fuchs @ Feb 11 2008, 05:41 AM) *
Although I don't get why you think I don't use the world - I use it, even more since I don't wait on official sourcebooks before venturing in a region.

But that's just it. Because of your "I use the world, I use it before the world is even published!" you're talking in a circle. You don't use the world. You use your world, or a world, but you don't use the (canon) world.

See the difference? We don't think you use the world because you keep telling us you don't.
Fuchs
I am sorry if you think I am belittling your concerns, I just consider your (Critias' and Fortune's) stances as too rigid. Given how much of a curve ball SR threw at us in the past (Bug city, anyone?), I'd think it would not be much of a stretch to adjust a campaign after a new sourcebook came out.
Ryu
A GD has 26 dice on drain resistance, 23 on spellcasting, and up to 13 bound spirits at paw. Targeting one is really hard because of Conceal (better hope from a spirit, the dragon has magic 12). I´ll avoid a discussion by saying "yes, they could be beaten", but they certainly can level a town when noone is prepared for the awakened (Aden), or attacking select targets without prior warning (Ghostwalker).
Fuchs
QUOTE (Malicant @ Feb 11 2008, 12:30 PM) *
What was your point? Military sucks? Yes, proven, thank you. Move along citizen.


As I said, the SR devs have no clue about firearms, or the military. And as you said - you want dragons to be uber, and magic to be uber, so you ignore what we already can do today, and assume that "it's magic" is sufficient to shrug off things that go through 1 meter of hardened steel today. I disagree.

SR has never, ever portrayed the military weapons and tactics. We don't even have artillery or main battle tanks in Arsenal. (I doubt most games need them either, so I can understand why it was not included).

But just to take some rules: A SK Taurus light gauss cannon has 14P, and halves any but smart armor, before applying -8AP. So, let's see... let's give the GD 30 hardened armor... halve for the gauss, makes 15, -8 AP... ouchie time.

Malicant
You really don get it, do you? A single GD is a complete fucking magical army with aoens of experience and tactical abilities no human can even dream of. He discards more ideas per seconds then you will have in your entire life.

That how dragons are depicted in SR. You cannot possibly argue with "but RL military rocks, they pawn imaginary creatures that are imagined to be stronger than them".

As I said, the Gauss is the only weapon that pawns dragons. So he will concentrate in disabling is first. And remember, the gunners have -12 to hit.
How many gazillion guass weapons will the army have, I wonder?

Now, i know the military uses always the best possible weapons. They dont use mass produced cheap stuff they byu huge quantities. Never. So they will all be only equipped with Guass guns. Every fucking jeep will have one. Right?

And the gauss loses it's teeth complety is the dragon decides to wear "smart armor". Like a spell emulating that effect. Sucks, heh?

Seriously, you can't win this with RL military arguments. Even the way they are in the BBB, weak and cuddly, dragons are still virtually impervious to harm.
Fuchs
A light gauss cannon is 200K - a drop in the bucket for a MBT's total costs. I don't see anyone sending out 5M vehicles with 5K weapons.

But it's a rather pointless discussion, you have your view, I have mine. and no matter what, we won't convince anyone.
FrankTrollman
If you stat it, they will kill it. The Immortal Elves have never been given stats, so when fanboys give tiresome rants about how Harlequin can do whatever then we have to roll our eyes and move on. But Great Dragons have stats. They've always had stats, and they've always been killable with high-end man portable weaponry.

They really seriously are a match for a high end Shadowrunner team in open confrontation. That's impressive and all, but compared to the combined arms of an actual military that's a god damned joke. In open field war, a great dragon loses. Hard. We've seen their stats, we've seen what they can do. It's really impressive, but it's not near enough to triumph over large numbers of trolls carrying heavy weapons. And that's before we get into vehicle mounted weaponry and fixed emplacement artillery. Mundane weaponry kills great dragons if for some reason it is allowed to directly target them.

And Aztlan has their own Great Dragons.

-Frank
Prime Mover
Speaking of Elves. I still dont understand how the IE's who spent several thousand years planning, lost control of there carefully plotted rule of the Tir.

And I see we get one more mysterious snippet about Crater Lake in Arsenal. Theres a long standing mystery.....they never did explain apt sized blocks floating above the island did they? Guessing there gone now.
Fuchs
QUOTE (Prime Mover @ Feb 11 2008, 02:34 PM) *
Speaking of Elves. I still dont understand how the IE's who spent several thousand years planning, lost control of there carefully plotted rule of the Tir.


In my opinion, it was because they spent millenia planning. Too much time spent in a slow-moving culture. Too much memories how things and people were in the past getting in the way of adapting to how things and people are now. I think the elves made their kingdom, and never really thought that this fancy new thing named "democracy" and bill of rights and such would take hold, being sure that once the "traditional order" (i.e., "Us as Kings") was put up people would like it.


Particle_Beam
To add some fuel in fire, didn't the German Bundeswehr or whatever in SR kill a rampaging Great Dragon with airfighters and missiles?
CircuitBoyBlue
I guess I'm probably the only one that liked the old TT sourcebook (funny, considering I hate the IEs). But according to that, Tir upheaval would have a huge impact on the Seattle running community because they'd just struck a deal (by just, I mean in the early 50s) to do all their port business in Seattle, so that they wouldn't have so many people bringing new ideas into the country itself. Anything that shakes up the docks like that has gotta have an effect on the Seattle running community. I figure if nothing else, there'd be freighter crews suddenly stuck in the city with no homeland they can ever go back to.
Dashifen
Alright folks ... especially those involved in the portion of this thread discussing the relatively power level between GD's and the military ... take a deep breath. Repeat after me: it's just a game and no one's game has to match anyone else's game 100% of the time.
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