For me, a game worth playing is one that caters to my preferences in playstyle. That usually means that it has to be flexible enough so I can tailor it to my campaigns.

If, say, I can adapt the upcoming 4th edition of D&D to my group's prefered "play fighters with light armor, not heavy armor" easily without requiring extensive modifications, then that's a game worth playing - even, or especially, if it also supports the "make heavy armor worth wearing" playstyle we also indulge in at times.

For the Tir, a solid description of the major look and feel of the place, and a lot of plothooks and ideas to build campaigns from, and enough room to use those plothooks without new products requiring specific details to be exactly like this or that, is what would make it a good book to buy.

Not-Critias. Still, changes are substantial if they change around the backstory of a char or the whole campaign. So anything that depends on made-up details is in risk of being substantially changed. If one does not want that, ie because retconning is the devil, then upcomming info on something is blocking certain parts of the background. Ironically the very situation that created the Tir problem - uncertainty about what will be canon and what not.

I seem to have a more flexible defintion of "depends on". Usually, when I make up "made-up" details, I am also capable to adapt them in a way that fits with other changes.

If say I have a campaign where Gunderson Corp figures as a prominent corp, and then suddenly I hear that in a new sourcebook, Gunderson Corp gets destroyed as part of an attack on a megacorp, then I won't gnash my teeth.

I'll simply adapt. Could be I say "when the fallout had cleared, most assets of Gunderson had been taken over by (Financial investor X), and things settled down, with mostly the same people in charge of the operations.

Could be I say "that's not happening to Gunderson Corp, but to TimeTable Corp in the next town".

Could be I say "that's going to be the focus of my new plot arc!".

And retroactively? If I made a background, and then suddenly the information changed, I'd adapt as well, with something like the aforementioned solutions. Maybe my character would not have a vendetta with Gunderson Corp, but with the successor corp, simply switching the logos, but not the details or people. But I'd not expect anyone to care about such changes in my background, since the essence of it, and probably all details but for the corp logo and a "in the troubled times before the takeover, the hunt lessened, but then evil exec took up the chase again, after he was confirmed in his position by the new owners" sentence slipped in, nothing would change.

It's not as if Tir is the only place that ever changed in a sourcebook.

ROFLOL. Seriously, you have no idea how funny that is.

Here here.


The question is actually "What makes a game worth buying."

Otherwise, I'm wandering over to True20 or the OGL or something else that I can use as a foundation to make my own game.


That's what I love about time stamps. It marks the exact time and date when someone says something foolish for all to see.

It will be broken. It's just a matter of time. That is true of almost any RPG whenever someone states an absolute.

Even if Kyoto Kid's Prince who thor-shotted part of downtown Portland did it in 2065 instead of whenever it was set?


Your laissez faire attitude towards hackery is simply amazing. Unbelievable even.

And some of us have played for years, and don't want to just arbitrarily adjust the backgrounds (or even current connections) of our characters. Backstory and continuity play important roles in some players' games.



But it's one of the only previously-detailed places that had major changes (in a wide variety of areas) without pretty much any detailing of what those changes actually are.

...as Han Solo once said "I got a bad feeling about this..."

Had that opportunity back in 2nd ed. Had everything all squashed less than a year later.

All I want (and I'll say want not need) is a bit more basic "ground level" info. What's the basic economic scene? What's the basic social scene? What's the basic political scene? A few pages that's all. Heck in Paradise Lost the writers devoted several pages to a pretty nice overview of the KOH, and that was in a run module.

...Oh and my nickname for the Tir is "The Land of Broken Promises"

How is it even remotely possible to make a statement (promise) like this?

The only feasible way they could keep their word here is not to release any info in the future, which would then break another of their promises.

I mean, if they don't give us any details, and say make stuff up, say they'll put stuff out sometime in the future, but they guarantee won't contradict anything you have invented, how the hell are they going to know what we made up? Do they expect everyone to come up with the exact same plotlines and fallout and social structure and economical climate from their less-than-detailed depiction of a major political and social upheaval?

My average campaign runs for, oh... 5 years or so. Usually spans over at least 2 editions. Backstory and continuity play a big role in my games. But then, I don't insist that everything has to happen exactly when, where and to whom as detailed in a book - or a novel.

And I use the leeway inherent in the setting to adapt. Fuchi disintegrating? Doesn't mean that the individual corps it was composed of will disintegrate as well, so most of the background involving actual interaction with Fuchi's assets won't change much if at all, or so slowly I can adapt.

As was pointed out, and as was demonstrated in the sourcebooks - the canon people vlaim to need - social and political changes can occur in a very fast time span. A country can change from metahuman-friendly to fascist and back in the span of a few years, and it's up to every GM to decide what stance was the cover, and what runs deeper. A country can go through changes in its government equally fast. It's not as if that was not done before, with the Germany Sourcebook, for example, and how Berlin was changed.

So, honestly, nothing is stopping anyone from filling in the blank period, and leaving 6 months of "during this time, the Tir changed to what will be canon" time free. Also, during the chaos of such changes, anything is possible. Even if the republicans win in a coup, royalists may have enough time to persecute whoever of the PCs or NPCs one wants to have a "tortured by the state" past.

Continuity, especially in a plot and intrigue-ridden setting like SR, is not set in stone down to the smallest detail either. I am sure there are a quite a few GMs who have used a character's background in ways that revealed other things than the character thought to know. Maybe that father was not shot by the evil corp for being an honest researcher, but fell to an internal saboteur that made it look like it was the corp trying to make it look like a terrorist strike.

In short - with a bit of creativity, which every GM has, and the most minor will to change some dates, or durations, just about every background can be covered.

I think they expect, quite reasonably, GMs not to slavishly adhere to every detail, but take what they want and like from any given background sourcebook, and run with it in a way that caters best to them.

Or maybe they'll simply write the new material in a way as to allow a lot of space for GMs to "Homerule" stuff. Like not defining every star chamber member, or not defining the exact constitution or social model of the Tir. Or simply adding some "in the last six months, another change happened, and this came of it" addition to the time line, only set to the present, which would neatly allow everyone to switch to canon if they want to.

I'd probably do it like that, if I thought there was a pressing need for such a move.

Or in other words: maybe they don't care about trying to make sure everyone has the campaign background.

As I have said numerous times now, I am not really interested in having my concerns trivialized. They are my concerns, and I have a right to have them. Nor do I need you to imply that I am somehow lacking because I am unwilling to just make every single facet of the new country up out of nothingness. The Tir and it's people and society play a huge role in a lot of the games I GM, and my personal characters when I play. Canon plays an important role in most of the games I run and play in (unless I have a compelling reason to change it, whether it be mechanics or fluff). I enjoy it that way, and wish to continue playing in a similar vein. So we come to my (according to you, unreasonable) wish for more hard canon data on the atmosphere and society of the current Tir.

I am not following this. Why publish a book if you don't care if people buy it?

My point is that they stated that future information on the Tir will not contradict anyone's game or NPCs or runs or plotlines. What about KK's Thor Shot on Portland? What about another person's successful coup a month after the Star Chamber was last mentioned? What about any number of things I can make up off the top of my head that most definitely won't be included in future canon, and very likely will be contradicted in some manner?

As I said, the easiest way to fullfil their promises is to keep what changes are laid out not too detailed, and to put in a "transition period" which would start at the current time the campaign is at, and runs for a few months during which the Tir changes from whatever the players made it to the new canon version. And of course keep the detail level down.

That way, even a player run Tir that had Portland hit by a Thor shot could be changed to canon easily - they simply never write "and there's no crater in portland", but instead write "a lot happened, some of it still can be seen today", and "the last governement was overthrown by X 6 months ago".

Of course, everyone can think of events that even this won't fit, but then, changes of that magnitude usually indicate that the GM in question did not really want to use "canon Tir" anyway, so won't care. If someone turns Tir in a radioactive wasteland following a war between it and Imperial Japan, odds are he/she won't care about canon.

That's an example for information that allows a lot of leeway. It does not state what really happened, leaving the GM free to decide whether this was a true event, or some propaganda fake made up fully or in part by an enemy of the current government.

...just for the record. it was three Brimstone™ solar cannon strikes. Yeah about the same as a Thor strike in the sense of total destruction albeit more precise. Leaves not so much a crater as just a huge scorch mark & a lot of cinders. Much easier to clean up after than a Thor shot.

...gee, and I still wonder why was I so nice?

So, to recap:

• Ghosts: still all elves, still badass (SR4)
• Crater Lake: still cordoned off (Ar)
• Peace Force: still shooting civilians (Ar)
• Lofwyr: turning his claw print into a footprint (Au)
• Tir Nobles: still around, but out of fashion (Ar)
• Tir music: still elfish, still sucks (Au)

What did I miss in Rh and Ce?

While I do not really share Critias's passion on the subject, I do understand his frustration. This is one of my two major beefs with Shadowrun (the other being the SoLA situatiuon). It's just not satisfying to know "Oh, by the way, Saito was kicked out of the CFS"; I'd like to know why/how it happened. I said it once in another thread months ago, but I think SR would have been well served by an interim sourcebook that dealt with the changes during the five year gap. For example, the Rifts rpg had a book called Aftermath, or Aftershocks, or something similar, which dealt with the changes in North America caused by the war on Tolkeen. The final chapters of System Failure did address this to a degree. I can only assume that the devs had a good reason for not doing so, but it would be nice to have some of the blank spots filled. What happened to Nadia Daviar, and why did'nt she take Haefner's place? How did Vlliers/Corporate Court discover Art's hiding place? Why did Lugh have to flee with his tail between his legs? Was Hestaby discreetly aiding the Rinelle? It goes on and on. But I've liked the quality of SR4 so far (with the exception of that "recover Jetblack's Lost Recording" module), so I'm willing to wait. Better to have a well written, well thought out product than a hastily assembled pastiche rushed to the market *cough*TSR*cough*

Well, there are several bits about Horizon's role in the Tir, and the bit about the author/screenwriter.

Note that S-K openning up in the Tir dates all the way back to stuff in DotSW and indirectly Corporate Punishment - with Lofwyr no longer on the Council the Princes could no longer claim conflict of interests, and had to allow S-K to move in (Lofwyr even has citizenship).

I see all that as perfect plot hooks for shadowruns. I'd rather play such events, than read about them.

Well, I should have guessed Horizon was in, since Gildrimel was top of the charts. And I did remember that SK was trying to build a facility there, though not that it was to be nanofab, but the important part is that its construction was a test for Seattle, which kind of says that Portland is still a second-rate city. How's my leap?

Well, CE says Portland, Salem, and Bend each got a "Best places to live in North America" title, that the Tir is a top-ranked tourist destination, and has the fastest growing economy in NA. Which would indicate Portland isn't a second-rate city... Of course, those could be the result of surveys done by Horizon...

..ahh well at least it's nice to the old Seattle vs. Portland catfight, going strong again.

Can't wait to see the Lords Spank the Mariners this season...

...Keep Portland Weird...

Yeah, now that they got some Orks on the team, they might have a chance.

Oooo BURrrrrrnnnn!

Come on man! A team called the Lords? They have got to change that.

...suggestions? [keep in in the SR vernacular]

Oh no, that was meant as an IC comment, I have no doubt that those damn pointy ears would have the audacity to name their teams the Lords

...yeah but this is the post crash, kinder, gentler, post Council of Twits TT now. Creative license is the rule of thumb here, we got ourselves a blank slate to play with.

Actually, the TT's Baseball Team was named The Lords (Shadowbeat)

Mmm...

God a PC but marketable name for a previously incredibly racists country?
That's like trying to rebrand a Humanis team called "The Pointy White Hats"

"The Pointy White Hats" for a Humanis Urban Brawl team... While they live that project will roll in money.

I think I'm using that in my campaign. The actual team will be called The Perry Winnon Hospital Urban Brawl Team but due to their HUmanis connection they're usually referred to as The Point White Hats

...of course now the TT can field an Urban Brawl team and join the NAUBL. That'll help with ratings. Heck, they could use the old Lloyd Centre and Holladay park for matches (one of the city's more disreputable neighbourhoods back in the day).

They certainlycould, it's already pretty sketchy across the river these days .

My question is, does TT Portland still have great Thai, Chinese, and Vietnamese food?

And how exactly did TT get rid of all their metas (back in the day) where did said meta's go?

And Urban Brawl could use a kick in ratings; hell, the Salish haven't put a nuyen in the Warriors since they got 'em. The Chi-town Hunters are still making waves, but Renraku's let the Invincibles slip the last few seasons, and the Terminators haven't been the same since Saito. Hell, heard noise Horizon was going to resurrect the Bolts under the brand name Quakes, who knows when. Toronto Sensations are anything but. The Tacoma Wings are one their last leg, the Tombstones are all but in the grave. Frag, the league has seen better days.

Portland Gorgons?

Tir Tairngire isn't Japan!

Though they do have the Yakuza. And I'd bet Brat'mael went into organized crime after the coup was over.

Everyone has Yakuza!

I had yakuza once, but I got this blue cream from my street doc and it cleared up in a couple a days.

I just got four or five Shadowrunners to take out my Yakuza for me.

Lugh Surehand fled from TT, his current destination is unknown (System Failure)

In Soviet Russia Yakuza has you!

How about "The Revolution" fans could call themselves the Revolutionaries. Right up there with the Patriots.

...I thought that was the Vory has you (well maybe with the exception of Valdivostok)


...those that remained were confined pretty much to Portland (hence the wall around the centre of the city) Those they really didn't like ended up in the SS, or Cali Free sans memories of the previous few days and any ID, or became the quarry for Ehran's hunts.

...Prime Mover: Not bad.

They could have a combat biking team called "The Wheels", then fans could call themselves the "Wheelies".

(sorry, really bad elven joke there)

"The Wheelies" against "The Pointy White Hats", next Friday... Discrete, professional runners wanted. Experience with explosives a must.

the Portland Weirds?

"Well, Bob, looks like all the Weirdos have shown up for this match!"

I'd think that the elves would have given their team some sort of incomprehensible spethriel (sp?) name. Bastards.

God, that would be the perfect run. "So what team are we supposed to be helping out?" "Uh... neither, we just want you to blow them /both/ up."
hehe

So... being a non elf in TT was really kinda a bad day eh?

They wouldn't want the announcers butchering their language.


Meh, they had a dwarf on the Council of Princes and later an ork: Larry Zincan, who now heads the Star Chamber (fraggin' orks taking over the word, first Yamatetsu, then Horizon, now Tir!).

I don't recall all metas being limited to Portland via mandate (wasn't that humans?), have to pull TT out later to be sure, but they were just more or less excluded from government with only a few token representatives.

While offensive, that's better than being shipped to a small island in the Phillipines and being experimented on.

It's freakin hot in the PI, to hell with that noise.

...

and their signature move is the Weirdo Way

<...hmm seem to have missed the "o" ...ahh, fixed...Looks like I need a new keyboard.>