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Kyoto Kid
...well I feel I said my piece on this.

Basically years ago I went ahead, spent a good deal of time and work extrapolating what I thought Portland and the TT would be given the information I had only to have it ripped to shreds by the first setting book.

I understand Synner's points but after being burned once am a bit reluctant to sink a lot of time into doing this all over again. Being very familiar with Portland in RL (considering I live here) makes it an attractive location. Not being familiar with the way things currently stand in the post crash TT makes it difficult to establish any kind of a foundation.

This is one of the issues I have with a "near to RL" world setting such as Shadowrun or Cyberpunk, which is not the case in a far flung futuristic SF game or archaic fantasy game. Locations like Kronos or Myth Drannor are fictitious and exist only in the minds of the writers/creators. Places like Portland, Tokyo, and London are on the other hand very real. It's natural that some of us like to set a campaign in our "home turf" and most of the times that is easy as many cities haven't been "canon-ized". Portland unfortunately is one of those locations that was brought into the SR fold so to say and therefore is now a distinct piece of the SR core setting just as much as Seattle, Denver, or Chicago are. Previous canon on the region is totally out of date so there is nothing to glean from there. Other than a couple paragraphs in System Failure and Corporate Enclaves there really is not much to go on for the present which brings us back to either once again having take "creative liberty" with what is a canon location or just forgetting that Portland exists until there is more material to go on.
nathanross
Okay Fuchs, instead of flaming you, and just saying that GD's are uber because the dev's say so, I would like to appeal to your logic.

Now your side seems to be that with the stats given, a very high class prime runner team could take down a GD with the right weaponry. Now assuming the GD sits there and takes every single hit without lifting a finger, you would probably be right. A GD has armor, but not enough to be invincible. It also can bend fate, or negate edge spent by the characters, but this is not going to save his ass from a well shot Gauss.

Now there is one VERY important thing you have forgotten here. Spirits and Spells. I really dont think it needs to be mentioned that Spirits, especially Force 10+ are super F*cking AWESOME. Now as was mentioned before, a great dragon can have 10+ of these. What happens when these materialize behind the enemy forces, be they an army or a team of runners. Also, you are comparing only the GD's natural armor with a successful hit. Who's to say that they dont have a Force 20 armor spell and multiple Force 20 Barrier spells up? (Or am I overestimating their magic ability?)

If you were honestly to give your runners all the SOTA military weapons, and then properly (meaning you dont actually want the GD to loose) fight them with a GD. I guarantee that not only will that not be easy, but if they survive, I would be very surprised.
Fuchs
(Sent you a PM, nathanross)
DocTaotsu
*pole vaults over the goofy GD vs Army discussion*

Well it seems clear that Portland (a land near to my heart since I lived there for about a year) is not well fleshed out and that players and GM will have to take quiet a bit of creative license to make it work in their games.

As such, what have you people been doing for Portland? How has the city changed from present day? (If they took down Powell books I'm nuking it from orbit). Portland has an underground like Seattle, aside from being an illicit entry point, does anyone live down there? What was the end result of the "deregulation" of TT? Relations to it's neighbors? Etc etc.

I agree with the belief that you have to have at least some idea what the hell TT is doing to run a Seattle game. My players have already asked a few times about TT and I've had to make spirit fingers at them and say "Uhm... scary stuff... ignore the elves behind the curtain..."
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (DocTaotsu)
(If they took down Powell books I'm nuking it from orbit).

...Princess Kam (then Prince Dugan) already kind of did that back in '56 with an orbital focused solar cannon. Well, actually, she incinerated her Laurelhurst Park estate, her company's (abandoned) industrial campus up by the old speedway, and took out the Hayden Island Peace Force garrison (the last one just for kicks grinbig.gif) Her way of saying "Aloha" to the Council before sailing off into the sunset.

That was the end of the campaign.

Oh, & BTW, before the TT book came out, I not only had Powell's "City of KnowSofts". but also the Edgefield (as well as several other notable brewpubs - the McMenamins' all ended up becoming dwarves during the Awakening), a thriving Nukeslam & Pink Mowhawk scene, an equally active alternative FlatVid scene, there was no 10 metre high wall surrounding the city, and dammit, no subway (only a light rail system).

...Keep Portland Weird...
DocTaotsu
I'd like to see what they did with OHSU and the sky gandola thingy. OHSU already looks like a corporate research enclave and it's geographic position would make for some interesting runs.

I'd also like to hear if you included Dignity Village (Is that what it was called?) the homeless shanty town up there. When I left Portland 7 years ago it was gaining some notoriety and I'm not sure what happened to it since. I'd think it might still be around and stuffed full of undesireables the Tir authorities tossed on their asses.

Is parking any better at Powell's in 2070? Or do you have a drive a Dodge scoot to not die horribly when you back out?
Kyoto Kid
...well the Shadowrun "Portland" I envisioned was still back in the 50s (written in RL in the early 90s). Hence, the Tram didn't exist yet, neither did the west side MAX (and the tunnel through the west hills), or Dignity Village.

However, I had Powell's go through a bit of expansion and they owned a four block area from Burnside to Davis & 9th to 11th. And yes, the parking was improved.

I portrayed OHSU (TMSU - TIr Medical Sciences University) as a major state of the art medical research centre. Yes, it was a good source for run hooks. I also had a high tech company named Δv up at the old race track that designed and built LH2 electromotive vehicles and was experimenting with high output fuel cell powerplants and other even more exotic systems (this was the industrial facility the aforementioned Princess Kam fried with the solar cannon). "DeeVee" was also one of the TT's premiere "home grown" corps at the time. Again, before the TT book came out there was little if anything on corporate activity within the borders, so a couple of the megas also had more of a presence there (and of course were good sources for runs).
Tiger Eyes
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid @ Feb 11 2008, 10:16 PM) *
And yes, the parking was improved.


Hahahahaaaa... but, no, seriously. Parking at Powell's is half the fun of the visit. Really. nyahnyah.gif

Ok, as a native Portlander, I have to admit the city is near and dear to my heart. I even snuck in the little update in the Corporate Enclaves LA chapter. There is some info on the Tir in both Corporate Enclaves and Runner Havens. Not a lot, but the total word count between both books is probably equal to what you'd see on a secondary city in either of those books. So, see, Portland (and the Tir) weren't even included as a city in either book, and still got as much word count (total) as, say, Europort or Manhattan. Ok, ok, not enough, I know. Synner says the Tir will get revisited... and I promise to continue to nag him until it does. Ok? grinbig.gif
Rob Boyle
Just wanted to add a few notes about the original Tir shakeups and Mike Mulvihill's Hidden Agendas novel, and respond to a few other things.

Mike was working on that novel when FASA closed in 2001. AFAIK, he hadn't written much of it, maybe a chapter or two, but there was an outline, and it had some serious ramifications on the state of Tir Tairngire. Now, FanPro didn't have novel rights (in English), so we didn't have the ability to push that novel ahead ourselves. WizKids kept the novel rights to themselves, but when we were working on SoNA, we didn't know if WK would have Mike finish the novel and publish it or not. So we had a choice -- write SoNA without referencing the novel, and risk having TT totally turned on its head if WK ended up publishing the novel a short while later, or include the novel's events, but not give away _all_ of the secrets, as WK wouldn't exactly take well to us spoiling a novel before it released. We wanted to shake up the Tir anyway, so we went with the second option, laying down some hints about the backstory, but leaving most of it for the novel to flesh out.

As it later turned out, WK opted not to print the novel, and the novels they published were tied into Shadowrun Duels instead. *shrug* So it goes. It was out of our hands.

Personally, I'm fine with having some mysteries that never go explained. It happens. Does anyone know who killed JFK? If you want to make it up and wrap your own campaign around it, you're free to. It leaves the GM more leeway.

QUOTE
does anyone have any info on new SR novels? I crave to read stuff. SR is the only RPG where I actually liked the novels.


Sorry, not yet, but we hope to have some news soon.

QUOTE
This follows the pattern established when fanpro first took over the franchise. Unless catalyst go in a completely different direction (unlikely) allo the old elements that have ties to ED will just be scrapped with no strong explanation


Huh? We haven't been scrapping the old elements without explanation at all. We certainly downplayed the focus on IEs and horrors, but that was a policy in effect at FASA, and I just kept it going. But we never removed them from the game, and in fact we introduced numerous _new_ ED links. Ghostwalker, anyone?

As to the great dragons vs. militaries debate .... Don't necessarily interpret the stats for the great dragons in SR4 as the stats for _all_ great dragons. Some are *considerably* older and more wiser than others. I almost cut those stats, and I probably should have, but characters like Ghostwalker and Lofwyr don't need and will never get stats. They're as powerful as we need them to be.
nathanross
QUOTE (Rob Boyle @ Feb 12 2008, 12:30 AM) *
As to the great dragons vs. militaries debate .... Don't necessarily interpret the stats for the great dragons in SR4 as the stats for _all_ great dragons. Some are *considerably* older and more wiser than others. I almost cut those stats, and I probably should have, but characters like Ghostwalker and Lofwyr don't need and will never get stats. They're as powerful as we need them to be.

notworthy.gif
Well I'm good.
Fortune
QUOTE (Rob Boyle @ Feb 12 2008, 03:30 PM) *
Personally, I'm fine with having some mysteries that never go explained. It happens. Does anyone know who killed JFK?


It isn't so much who did what and when, as the whole feel of the place. There are two sourcebooks on Tir Tairngire, and both are pretty much out of date as far as society, atmosphere, politics, business, law enforcement (and on and on) are concerned. Although an update on the major players would be nice, that is not as important to me as fleshing out (via canon) the current flavor of the New Tir.
Kanada Ten
SK built a facility in Portland using nanotech fabrication (Augmentation), I think that says just about everything.
mfb
QUOTE (Rob Boyle)
They're as powerful as we need them to be.

as an ordained prophet of the Church of Great Dragons Have Had Tens of Thousands of Years to Accumulate Unimaginable Power, i'm going to take this as personal dispensation from on high to tell anyone that thinks Hestaby only has 13 Int that they can shove it.
Kyoto Kid
...personally I have little interest in the ED links (primarily because I do not play that game and am not about to invest money in books I will never really much use). I was just hoping for some more "here and now" stuff following the crash. It doesn't have to be a play by play over the last 5 - 6 years, just where the TT is sitting politically, socially, and economically at the start of the 7th decade. At least a couple pages or three...

Tiger Eyes, keep up the good fight.

...Keep Portland Weird
darthmord
QUOTE (Critias @ Feb 10 2008, 02:36 PM) *
But, again, it just (taken to the extreme) comes down to the "then why bother paying money for the books?" thing.

If all you're going to do is house rule everything (which is a common suggestion around here), and "GM Fiat" everything else (which is an even more common suggestion), and then you're also going to tweak the setting/make it all up yourself...

...at what point do you have any reason to be giving anyone any money for rulebooks and sourcebooks any more? You're changing all the numbers around, randomly allowing/disallowing published rules, and then supplying your own setting. You're a game designer, congrats, all you need is an artist and a publisher!

I've never understood the allure. Maybe it's the wargamer in me, where I've got to deal with tournaments and stuff like that (so my army lists, etc, are always "by the book" legal). *shrugs* But whatever floats your boat. If that's how you like running games, more power to ya. I imagine it can be a lot of fun, if folks are willing to put in the time and effort themselves, and willing to work together (instead of rely on the sourcebooks as agreed-upon setting information, etc, instead).


The first rule I ever read in any RPG was from AD&D 2nd Edition (no I'm not afraid of calling it by name). It basically said "If you find a rule that doesn't work for you, change it so it does."

There is nothing wrong or verboten about changing the rules / fluff to accomodate your campaign as your campaign and my campaign aren't going to be competing with one another nor are we required to have any sort of crossover.

I believe you are getting stuck on a purist track rather than enjoying SR as a game.

To further drive the point home, let's say in 2080 (game time) in a campaign I'm running the Big D finds a way to come back as his old self. Everyone knows that GDs are OMGWTFAwesomesauce. It's not unlikely that one or more of them had something hidden up a scaly sleeve. Yet doing that is decidedly NON-CANON.

Demanding that the books toe your line (for ease of your campaign) is a bit much IMO. The rest of us expect some level of modification for use within our own campaigns. That's not a bad thing like you are making it out to be.

As for the great dragon thing... I believe it was in Dragons of the 6th World that it was stated that the stats given were of a "typical" dragon and that individual dragons vary greatly (or something to that effect). I've always made the dragons have stats for what I need and ignored any published stats unless I needed a "one-off dragon" for some purpose.
Mattily
I might be alone in this, but I like the SR/ED links
Elve
QUOTE (Mattily @ Feb 12 2008, 06:56 PM) *
I might be alone in this, but I like the SR/ED links

me too
and to stay on topic: Sure I love the hints given in teh books, but gimme more!
martindv
QUOTE (darthmord @ Feb 12 2008, 12:23 PM) *
I believe you are getting stuck on a purist track rather than enjoying SR as a game.

I believe Critias and Adam already explained why Critias is "stuck on a purist track."
Kyoto Kid
...if it weren't for the fact I & my players live out here in the PNW, I would just say screw the whole Tir thing and set my campaign in some location the developers don't care about like Milwaukee, Madison or Stevens Point.

That's it! Da Shadows of Pointski ya der hey. At least there's lots of good bars for meets and they still have their own brewery. There would be the Polka Syndikat, Sentry Securities (now an AA level corp), The University - "Go Pointers eh?", the Point Brewery, lots of places to drink... grinbig.gif
Neonsamurai
any chance in seeing the few chapters of the "lost-secrets-of-tir" novel ? if it isn't going to be published anyway why do not give it to the public - official or not, interesting it will be anyway grinbig.gif
Ryu
QUOTE (Mattily @ Feb 12 2008, 06:56 PM) *
I might be alone in this, but I like the SR/ED links


You are far from alone. Playing both games changes the perspective one has. And I really appreciate how stealthy some connections are if one doesn´t.
Fortune
QUOTE (Neonsamurai @ Feb 13 2008, 08:59 AM) *
any chance in seeing the few chapters of the "lost-secrets-of-tir" novel ? if it isn't going to be published anyway why do not give it to the public - official or not, interesting it will be anyway


As Rob said, he doesn't think Mike got any farther than a rough draft and the first couple of chapters. Even if they were in existence, they would belong to either Mike himself, or to WizKids, not Catalyst.
last_of_the_great_mikeys
Okay, folks, you all have failed to ask or answer the most important question of all: do Tir ghosts still have that funky commgear that's so valuable that if you salvage a squadron worth of it you could buy a kingdom? Oh, I loved when I found out about that in Shadowrun 3. Ghost hunting was so...profitable!
Kanada Ten
QUOTE (last_of_the_great_mikeys @ Feb 12 2008, 09:13 PM) *
Okay, folks, you all have failed to ask or answer the most important question of all: do Tir ghosts still have that funky commgear that's so valuable that if you salvage a squadron worth of it you could buy a kingdom? Oh, I loved when I found out about that in Shadowrun 3. Ghost hunting was so...profitable!

QUOTE (SR4 page 276)
Tir Ghosts... ...Cyberware: Flare Compensation (Retinal Modification), Commlink (Response 6, System 5, Signal 3), Smartlink, Wired Reflexes 2...

Um, the answer is sort of. Their commlink worth at least 10,000 nuyen.gif - though not quite so much after market.

But, they are all elves still...
Athanatos
As for the Great Dragon Stats in the BBB, I've always taken it to be a Dragon that Just Reached The Great stage, or one that isn't exactly the most shining(or even average) example of Great DragonKind. Lofwyr is still around, he is an absolutely Magnificent Bastard!!! If they were so Lowly, there'd be no chance in hell of Lofwyr still kicking it.

I also happen to believe the Great Big D could return, he's got a CyberZombie body and is still able to cast spells right? They can create Drakes and the Like right? He has a corporeal enough form that he can personally perform a great Blood Magic Ritual(Life magic not death) and form atleast some sort of powerful body. If all else fails he could always Frag Alamais and take his body lol. devil.gif "I'm sorry brother(I know it's loffy on the spots brother but still), but it is for the good of the World!!!"
Particle_Beam
Last time I saw it, Lofwyr rather became head of the biggest mega-corporation thanks to his guile, trickery and cleverness, and not because he devastated the german army by brute forcce or something like that.

Heck, I even read somewhere that the Germans managed to take out one Great Dragon with airfighters and missiles.
Kanada Ten
QUOTE (Particle_Beam @ Feb 12 2008, 10:53 PM) *
Heck, I even read somewhere that the Germans managed to take out one Great Dragon with airfighters and missiles.

When she first woke-up, toxic and insane from the poisons that seeped into her lair. And she might still be alive - toxic and insane (and maybe undead).

Quick Rundown

  • Aden: razed Tehran (alone)
  • Hualpa, Sirrurg, and an unknown Great took over Brazil, by force (aided by an Awakened Army)
  • Hestaby: halted the Tir military advance on California (aided by CFS Rangers)
  • Ghostwalker: drove Aztlan forces out of Denver (aided by spirits, wyverns, CAS, UCAS, and NAN forces)
darthmord
QUOTE (martindv @ Feb 12 2008, 04:28 PM) *
I believe Critias and Adam already explained why Critias is "stuck on a purist track."


I understand that. I hadn't read that far into the thread to see it when I posted but at the same time, the tone of his post struck me very much as saying "If you don't accept my purist track as the one true path, you are a bunch of unwashed heathens that are playing wrong." The written tone of his post got my hackles up. It simply came across as rather elitist and condescending.

There is no "one true way" to play except in whatever manner gives you & your group the most fun. Just don't expect it to be the same for another group.
DocTaotsu
Good god Last... you want to farm Ghosts.

My only consolation is that there are probably already Chinese Ghost Commgear farmers already active in that shard.

*ducks*
wink.gif
Critias
QUOTE (darthmord @ Feb 13 2008, 12:36 AM) *
I understand that. I hadn't read that far into the thread to see it when I posted but at the same time, the tone of his post struck me very much as saying "If you don't accept my purist track as the one true path, you are a bunch of unwashed heathens that are playing wrong." The written tone of his post got my hackles up. It simply came across as rather elitist and condescending.

There is no "one true way" to play except in whatever manner gives you & your group the most fun. Just don't expect it to be the same for another group.

You're right. I'm totally a condescending elitist because I want game books to be, y'know, good. How absurd of me. Your hackles are rightly raised! It's absolutely ridiculous of me to not want to have to ignore the setting and make up my own, house rule everything instead of playing by the rules in the book, GM fiat away half the edges and flaws in any given system, and basically make up my own game in exchange for my $50. As a consumer of more RPGs and wargames than you can shake a stick at, I continue to deserve to walk into every new purchase with the assumption being that the book is innately without worth, and the cop out "change it if you don't like it" clause in every game book, ever, is expected of me because God knows I've got no right to expect a product to stand on it's own two feet. I've taken your words to heart, and from now on with every freelance piece of writing I submit I'll be sure my editors and publishers know to add a "if you don't like it, change it!" line at the end of every piece of gaming material I'm paid to write, because no one should dare even hope for gaming material to be good right out of the box, they should have to pay us money and then still crowbar it into submission to make it worth playing. You're right!

And I'm way out of line -- more elitism and purism! -- the way I keep saying over and over again that what works for my group doesn't work for other groups, and that other people are free to run their games however they want, and wishing them luck and fun in those endeavors, and acknowledging that it's probable I'm the only person that really cares about the Tir. It's completely unreasonable of me to want information on the setting from the only canonical source of that information, and to feel mildly irritated when that information is not available (and, the gall of it, for me to say so on a thread where people bring it up).

I'm out of control, and seriously across the line with these zany, out-of-this-world, ideas of mine. Please, please, report me to the mods. How dare I!
martindv
QUOTE (Kanada Ten @ Feb 12 2008, 10:23 PM) *
Um, the answer is sort of. Their commlink worth at least 10,000 nuyen.gif - though not quite so much after market.

But, they are all elves still...

Their commlinks were worth considerably more than 10 grand in third edition.

QUOTE (darthmord @ Feb 13 2008, 12:36 AM) *
I understand that. I hadn't read that far into the thread to see it when I posted but at the same time, the tone of his post struck me very much as saying "If you don't accept my purist track as the one true path, you are a bunch of unwashed heathens that are playing wrong." The written tone of his post got my hackles up. It simply came across as rather elitist and condescending.

There is no "one true way" to play except in whatever manner gives you & your group the most fun. Just don't expect it to be the same for another group.

No, but I don't expect to be asked to pay around $30 for a poorly-written book except by people with brass balls the size of basketballs.

Or game companies.

That doesn't mean I appreciate it or feel like I shouldn't be allowed to make my opinion heard. This is the Internet, after all. Everyone's opinion is equally worthless. But it's my worthless opinion.
DocTaotsu
QUOTE (Critias @ Feb 13 2008, 02:25 AM) *
... they should have to pay us money and then still crowbar it into submission to make it worth playing. You're right!


What makes a game worth playing?
Critias
Does it matter what I say? We're so off topic from what happened to the Tir I really don't see a point in responding. We're not talking about Shadowrun any more (or at least, I'm not), we're talking overarcing gamer expectations compared to quality of product.

So just go ahead and make up my answer for me, so we can all skip right to the part where you disagree with me and tell me how wrong I am to want game companies to not write books based on the assumption that house rules and fan-background material are necessities.
Fuchs
It's common practise that when someone posts a gripe, that one of the firsts impulses is to post possible solutions, especially those possible solutions that do not require a gaming company to publish a book. It's all good and nice to wait for Catalyst, but some are more interested in what they can do right now to have a campaign in Tir. You're not one of them, obviously.

Also, I think it's better to make a distinction between house rules such as "we're using the 4+ is a hit house rule" and fluff changes such as "In our campaign, the gang war in Seattle did not last 4 weeks, but only 3 weeks and 2 days". Trying to throw all such into the realm of "changing entire games" is overly dramatic.

In short, I believe game books should be written with the assumption that every campaign is different in some way, and therefore some flexibility can be expected from players and GM alike. A game book that does not allow for such adjustments - like changing times, dates and durations of certain events - without becoming useless is not that useful.
Kyoto Kid
...

(aww, bloody hell...forget it)
Critias
My argument has nothing to do with changing something from four weeks to something lasting three weeks and two days, instead. That you'd put an argument like that in your post and then call me overly dramatic is pretty ridiculous. Straw man much?

My argument is that "who cares if they've told us yet or not? Make it up yourself!" is just not much help. I don't need the permission of some schmuck on the internet to make something up. What's more, I don't need a game book if my plan is to just make something up. It's fine for some campaigns (and I've said so repeatedly), but it's not advice that I want or need. What's more, it being offered up as advice over and over again -- and by this, please understand, I don't mean by any single person, on any single topic, in any single thread, from any single forum, or even pertaining to any single game -- only encourages sloppiness. I know that the "golden rule" of any RPG out there is "modify what you want to modify." I just feel that house ruling too much, fan-creating too much material to fill in too many gaps, GM fiat making up for inbalanced rules, etc, etc, innately, encourages poor game design and development.

It's a stupid "rule" to have written in the first place. Who is D&D to tell me I'm allowed to house rule their book? Who is White Wolf to let me throw out rules I don't like? Who is WizKids, or FASA, or FanPro, or anyone else to tell me they're okay with me using their book as I see fit? That's BS. The "rule" is there as a disclaimer. It's there to say "we know we may have written a shitty product, but rather than expecting our fans to hold us to a higher standard, we're going to just say 'hey, do what you want to because you own the book now and your game might not be the same as my game,' and then still charge people money for our product while encouraging them not to use it."

It's sloppy, to me. It's sloppy, it promotes continued sloppiness, and I'm tired of it constantly being offered up as a fix for something whenever anyone on any gaming forum has a complaint about a product.

No game book needs flexibility built into it (as you seem to insist), because they're innately flexible. Once you buy it, the motherfucker is yours. Tear out the combat target number modifier chart if you want. Yoink the entire equipment table out and tear it into little pieces. Take that bad boy to Kinkos and get fancy schmancy new pages put in to replace the magic chapter you lit fire to. It's yours. Do what you want. That's flexibility, right there. They are innately flexible because they're yours once you take them out of the book store, and as such any concern about how quickly a book becomes "useless" should deal with the material that is provided, not be paranoid about what material the consumer might provide throwing a monkeywrench into the works.

Any rule book written on a foundation of the assumption of extensive house ruling is a game book that is, innately, not worth much money. No one should pony up the cash for a book that's nothing but a snazzy piece of cover art, an exiting back cover blurb, and then "page 1: make up your own rules and setting, but do your best to keep the feel of how awesome the cover is! Wooooo! We're the most FLEXIBLE role playing game ever!"

Why can't we expect a game company to write a book that doesn't want or need house rules? Why shouldn't a game company write a book and be confident their product is solid enough, their sourcebooks comprehensive enuogh, that those sorts of changes aren't required? Why don't we, as consumers, expect their product to be ready to go right out of the box, balanced and fair and well written, presenting us with the rules and the setting necessary to run a campaign?

Why are our standards, as a community, so low that "house rule it" is a battle cry amongst gamers, instead of "buy another product" or "demand a better book?"
nathanross
QUOTE (martindv @ Feb 13 2008, 01:44 AM) *
Their commlinks were worth considerably more than 10 grand in third edition.

Boy ain't that an understatement! Cyberdecks were like gold bricks. If I were to truly role play, I'd ice the decker, fence the software and deck, and retire. Or if I really want to play, just put it into the bank till I succeed on the Availability role for some Deltaware. smokin.gif
Fuchs
Because a substantial part of us has noticed that no matter what, they won't ever build the perfect game for us. If I buy a car, I expect to be able to move the seat and adjust it without the car falling apart. Same for a game system.

And I very much disagree that the "House rule it if you want to" rule is not needed. It is very much needed so that players and GM alike, especially new ones, know that the game can be adjusted without breaking.

Also, I do not think that most consider changing fluff house ruling anything. In most threads I notice, house rules change the game mechanics, fluff is just fluff. That's why I call you overly dramatic. You act as if stating "we're playing in 2065 in this campaign" is the same as stating "oh, we don't use essence loss for cyber, magic has double the drain, and everyone gets 5 spell defense for free".

What you want is a canon source of information about the Tir. That's nothing to do with game mechanics or house rules.
Fortune
QUOTE (nathanross @ Feb 13 2008, 07:27 PM) *
Boy ain't that an understatement! Cyberdecks were like gold bricks.


They are not talking about the Cyberdecks. They are talking about the Tir Ghosts' comm units, which were insane.
Fortune
QUOTE (Fuchs @ Feb 13 2008, 07:31 PM) *
What you want is a canon source of information about the Tir.


And that is exactly what he (and I) have been asking for.

QUOTE
That's nothing to do with game mechanics or house rules.


If you change the fluff about an in-game setting, then you are indeed creating house rules, at least in a way. Rules about the setting itself.

I'm not sure why our asking for updated setting information about a specific area is so offensive to you.
Fuchs
It's not offensive. I don't know why you think I find it offensive. I simply think one can already play there for as long as one wants, and then adapt to the new canon information easily.

I disagree about the fluff changes being house rules.
Critias
QUOTE (Fuchs @ Feb 13 2008, 04:05 AM) *
I disagree about the fluff changes being house rules.

Which is why I say you play in a game world, not the game world. A substatial portion of every game book -- for some other games I can name, in fact, entire game books -- is nothing but what you call "fluff" (and others call "background"). Your insistence that it doesn't matter (which is, whether you mean to say it or not, what you're saying) is anathema to me. I'm a guy that writes that "fluff."

So, yes. I think it's an important part of a game world, and that substantial changes to it are every bit as much a house rule as any other house rule.
nathanross
QUOTE (Fortune @ Feb 13 2008, 03:55 AM) *
They are not talking aabout the Cyberdecks. They are talking about the Tir Ghosts' comm units, which were insane.

embarrassed.gif hehe
Fuchs
QUOTE (Critias @ Feb 13 2008, 10:12 AM) *
Which is why I say you play in a game world, not the game world. A substatial portion of every game book -- for some other games I can name, in fact, entire game books -- is nothing but what you call "fluff" (and others call "background"). Your insistence that it doesn't matter (which is, whether you mean to say it or not, what you're saying) is anathema to me. I'm a guy that writes that "fluff."

So, yes. I think it's an important part of a game world, and that substantial changes to it are every bit as much a house rule as any other house rule.


If you are refusing to admit that the degree of fluff changes matters, then you are claiming that as soon as I use a self-created NPC I am changing an important part of the game world, and house ruling it. By your defintion, almost everyone is houseruling all the important game parts, since almost every GM has used a self-created NPC at least once.

Now, I am of the opinion that the particular fluff you fixate on - what exactly happened during and after the coup in the Tir - is not on the level of critical, core fluff such as "wireless matrix" or "Magic". Or in other words - I do not consider it a substantial change.

I explained why - because I am of the opinion that whatever canon info will be released, it won't be difficult to adapt a campaign to it.
Critias
If you're taking my opinion to the level that you'll honestly claim I'm saying "don't use your own NPCs," I'm just flat out done talking to you. Have a good one.
Fuchs
I am trying to understand where exactly you draw the line between "substantial changes to the game world" and "using an NPC I created myself". I stated that the exact details of the coup in the Tir, for me, are not really substantial changes. If they are for you, where do you draw the line then?
Fortune
QUOTE (Fuchs @ Feb 13 2008, 08:21 PM) *
Now, I am of the opinion that the particular fluff you fixate on - what exactly happened during and after the coup in the Tir - is not on the level of critical, core fluff such as "wireless matrix" or "Magic". Or in other words - I do not consider it a substantial change.


As we have said numerous times, that is not quite what we want. But, as I said earlier in the thread, I (and others, even those that disagree) have explained it often enough for it to be relatively clear.
Fuchs
Since the general posts of "well, even without official canon news, you can still play in the Tir like this: (advice/proposal)" seems to be taken as "We hate your views! And yourself!" by some, I am not so sure anything else was made that clear.
DocTaotsu
QUOTE (Critias @ Feb 13 2008, 03:37 AM) *
Does it matter what I say? We're so off topic from what happened to the Tir I really don't see a point in responding. We're not talking about Shadowrun any more (or at least, I'm not), we're talking overarcing gamer expectations compared to quality of product.

So just go ahead and make up my answer for me, so we can all skip right to the part where you disagree with me and tell me how wrong I am to want game companies to not write books based on the assumption that house rules and fan-background material are necessities.


Actually, I really just wanted to know what makes a game worth playing. That's something I'm trying to figure out for myself and it sounds like you have a clear idea. I know we're so far off topic that... lets just leave it at we're off topic. I wanted to see if I could go somewhere with the discussion that interests me (Since no one seems all that interested in talking about Tir anymore).

I guess I was wrong.
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (Critias)
My argument is that "who cares if they've told us yet or not? Make it up yourself!" is just not much help. I don't need the permission of some schmuck on the internet to make something up. What's more, I don't need a game book if my plan is to just make something up.


I'm genuinely confused. The authors have specifically given a start point, and an end point, and then promised that they will never retcon the intermediary. Now, they could potentially break that promise. It's not like no one has ever Broken Their Promise in Tir Tairngire before. But they specifically said that any NPCs and Runs you set in that period will never go against Canon.

So seriously, what is the problem exactly? They've given you a sandbox and promised not to kick over any sand castles you make. That's better than the players in Denver ever got. It doesn't strike me as sloppy. It strikes me as very restrained and thoughtful. Synner came right out and said that they weren't going to invalidate your campaign, and gave you provisions for working with that. That really seems like as much as they could possibly do without magically publishing a new plot book that slapped new plot hooks onto the area. But there are a bunch of plot hooks left over. You seriously could run a street level or epic game set in Portland set in 2065 or 2072. That's better than Lagos gets.

-Frank
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