Ok, so Mr Lucky is a maxed-out pistol shooter. This means he's nearly got the highest possible pistol shooting dicepool. This means he can't use karma to get better at shooting pistols. It makes sense.
He's also competent enough in other areas to survive runs and be more than a one-trick poney but he's by no means good at everything, so he's not broken either.

Conclusion: It's great, the system allows you to play a specialist right out of chargen. It's a nice feature, I like it.

a specialist who can't advance in his chosen specialty. which is the point.

Once you're the best, it's hard to get better. You can progress in related skills, though.
Actually I like that too (already did that when I GM'd 3rd edition).
But I can understand that some people (especially people used to D&D/CRPG levelling up) don't like it.

A specialist who the creator doesn't feel the need to advance the specialty of. Not the same thing, but nice try.

-Frank

We've established that Mr.Lucky is a viable character. What you haven't established is whether he is at "the top of his game." Furthermore, I cannot judge whether he's a dominating force or not until I actually see him in action rather than a description of that might be a fluke, bad rolls, or the GM simply wanting to get a scene out of the way fast.

This goes back to the whole point of this thread - ie. making a character who starts at the top of his game (and essentially cannot improve in actual play). That means determining what "top of his game" actually means in terms of this challenge. So far all the posts on the subject have boiled down to two different definitions of "the top of his game":

- Option 1 is that "top of his game" means especifically that the character cannot improve after chargen (or improve enough that it makes a difference) in a single chosen specialization niche (ie. in Mr Lucky's case that would mean putting the emphasis on pistols in "pistols combat" and it would mean). To argue this one, we need to define how much bigger the dice pool would need to be to make a difference (+3 dice? +6 dice?) and to see whether Mr. Lucky factoring in Edge (since that's his gimmick and why I brought it up) doesn't allow improvement. To put it another way, if this is a "top of his game" pistols combat character he better be as efficient as other "top of their game" pistols specialists. I've seen hyperspecialist gunslinger builds that roll 22+ dice pools (+ Edge) so using Option 1 criteria Mr. Lucky seems not to be "top of his game" (even in pistols combat) and there are a number of augmentations, modifications, and tweaks to strive for in play, he just won't be improving with Karma - all of which will make him a better (as you put it) "pistols combat" fighter. Personally I think he'll fare worse than a hyperspecialist street sam gunslinger, but I'm willing to put it to the test.

- Option 2 is that "top of his game" means that the character cannot improve after chargen (or improve enough that it makes a difference) in terms of, for lack of a better term, his "role" (ie. in Mr Lucky's case that would mean putting the emphasis on combat in "pistols combat"). To argue this one, and given what we know of his build, we need to see if Mr Lucky is resilient enough to survive the combat portion of "pistols combat" (which is also where his Edge comes in and why I brought it up). Or to put it another way, if this is a "top of his game" as a combat character, he'd better be able to survive a typical combat better than a different "top of his game" combat specialist. Personally I think he'll fare worse, but I'm willing to put it to the test too.


As I said I'll agree that he "dominates in one area" when I see him either outperform a "pistols combat" specialist or out-perform a "pistol combat" specialist. If he doesn't, then it is a given that he can improve. So far I've seen neither, so I cannot judge whether he can improve or not. What I can say though, and another of my points regarding Edge, is that if you don't factor it in, Mr.Lucky definitely has grounds to improve in either case.


You misunderstood the point I was making with reference to Edge. I was simply counting Edge use as part of MrLucky's actual "pistol combat" dice pools and therefore his overall efficiency and performance in the combat example posted.

Doing multiple Walkthroughs would allow us to compare different "top of their game builds" as a controlled experiment of sorts.

So I'm going to repeat my offer: want to do a walk-through and then we can do another one with a pistols combat specialist and a pistols combat specialist to compare?

i've played SR for 90% of my gaming career, and except for Fallout and it's non-XBox sequels, i don't generally like CRPGs. D&D expectations have nothing to do with it. it has to do, quite honestly, with my fairly extensive SR experience.

You have said what I have been trying to say better than I have...

close enough. he's all of, what, two dice off? three?

Let's say three (for the sake of argument). Yes, that's 1 more success on average, but 3 potential successes more (not factoring more potential successes if Edge is used for exploding dice). I know you don't like how the success rate scales in SR4, but that is significant difference.

Maybe I'm just a jerk when I GM, but I'd never, not ever, allow 'Gymnastics Dodges' to be used by someone strapped into a vehicle, much less driving it. That's a major ding against the GM who allowed you to run roughshod over the encounter like that anyway. Second, I know you don't have piloting, but I don't know if you had a piloting skillsoft loaded. Pilot: 0 isn't meant for combat driving (a drive by certainly counts... this is where you accidentally crash as you wizz by), so thats a ding as well.

I do find it hard to believe that four people, two of them being combat monkeys, all utterly failed their perception checks/reaction checks to avoid surprise... particularly since you are surprising them FROM A VAN! I'm not an expert on the vehicle combat rules at all, but I'm sure a quick once over of the relevant pages would turn up half a dozen wtf questions from this encounter.

Synner I think also pointed out that the edge use from the distinguished opposition was less than optimal. I could certainly see the adept and sammy certainly using their edge to bolster the reaction test to avoid surprise, which would have seriously altered the nature of the fight.

Then again: Maybe you think Mr. Lucky is broken because you are one of those weird people whose dice rolls defy statistics... getting 50% or more hits on dice throws ever time, stuff like that. Lord knows my group had TWO players like that... made balencing encounters a nightmare, these two killed everything, and what they didn't no one else could hurt... Certainly an 'unsoakable even with edge' pistol shot against a presumably high body/high armor samurai, from a moving vehicle, sounds like one of those situations (and yes, we all know you play with a GM that lets you bypass ALL armor on called shots, which in this case means you are tossing, at most, ten or so dice on a presumptively 6P weapon... we don't have all the details. Overflow damage means he took, probably, more than 10+ points of damage after his soak. That sounds like you essentially rolled 'all successes'... or close too it. Again, statistically improbable but I've seen players do it.



In short: from your description your GM softpedaled the fight. Since neither the decker nor the face meaninfully contributed to the fight, and ran like scared girls after two passes, its more acurate to say you successfully ambushed one runner and won a gunfight with his partner not 'I took on an entire party of prime runners and totally owned them'.

Given that the highest possible Pistols (Semi-Auto) base dice pool you can get is 25 dice (27 with Smart Link), Mr. Lucky is far from the best Pistols Combat Specialist you can get in SR.

Admittedly that requires you to be an Elf Adept with a smattering of Bioware, but you could start with that type of character with a similar dice pool to Mr. Lucky and then improve from there.

I don't - they were missions characters...they probably didn't have the perception skill either. Other bits of stupidity I noted in various missions are:

• gangers with no guns or gun skills
• a technomancer vs. player cyber-duel in a dead zone
• an opposition "professional" shadowrunning team with no cyber, gear, or weapons listed
• an enemy mage with a rather foolish D&Desque trapped entryway that he didn't have the spells or metamagic to have created

Still, Mr. Lucky should pray he never faces:
a melee or bow-specialist troll with better than Wired 1
an ambush where he is the target
a half-competant enemy mage or a spirit of effectively force 6 or higher
ad nauseum.

See, This is one of the many reasons I don't pay much attention to prepublished adventures of any sort. Great for ideas for your own runs, maybe... otherwise next to useless.

As a GM I reserve the right to shore up weaknesses in NPCs, such as not having guns listed. I assume that's legal in the 'Missions' business.

But as everyone keeps putting so much weight behind that term I have to wonder if I'm out of the loop on something (please god tell me its not like the 'Living' whatevers of RPGA... that crap is just sad from a GMing perspective...)

Yeah, Missions is (currently) pretty much 'Living' Denver.
It used to be 'Living' Seattle.

Though...it's kind of interesting to follow up and see what the 'average' result was (compared to your group.)

Well, to be fair, an ambush would spell trouble for any character...
But it is what I've been saying all along, he can shoot, but he's no where near the top of staying alive...

Actually, the GM said he was glad to have the opportunity to be rid of the character. And let's face it, four solid hits with a SMG isn't something to sneeze at. At any event, I've never claimed to have totally pwned them, just that I took them on and won. I'd personally amend that to "won decisively ", but that starts getting subjective.


Actually, I never called for an interrupt action, so dodging never came into play. As for the driving, that's what a Pilot program is for. The GM may not have thought using Edge for extra actions/going first was optimal, and in a way, he was right; I was completely unable to one-shot the Adept, it took *four* direct hits to take her down. Don't think this was an easy fight


The same applies for any character. No one character can dominate every aspect of combat. But you can have a character that dominates one or two.

As for Synner's challenge, I've long since learned about playing with a GM with an axe to grind. He's more than welcome to run the scenario with someone else; as long as he allows for smart tactics from the PC, it should be relatively fair. Besides which, I think the point is made that smart tactics plus a highly-optimized character is a recipe for victory. At any event, the challenge was to show a character who completely dominated a single area so well, there was little room for karmic advancement. Mr. Lucky proves that it's possible for a limited area of combat, and the Pornomancer proves it's possible for the entire social arena.

Cain, we have disagreed slightly in the past, with you favoring hard-maxing and me favoring soft-maxing on abilities. My argument is that 1 or 2 dice are not worth 70+ build points, while yours has been that you can hard-max and still get the absolute essentials in other areas, so you might as well get those extra dice.

Now, though, when people point out that a specialist still has room to improve, you are saying that getting 3 or more dice in a specialty doesn't matter. Huh? So, is the hyper-specialist at some magical "sweet spot", where, having sacrificed disproportionately to get his high dice pool, getting it even higher is meaningless?

Actually, I think my last bio-adept gunner would have been quite at home facing off against an ambush or a bow troll or most of the other circumstances up to, and including Mr. Lucky. Of course, I had a passive dodge pool of around 12, combat reflexes (bonus for surprise tests) and so forth and so on.

Mr Lucky, however, was the better shot by two dice as I recall.

I don't think Synner has an ax to grind, you just keep making a wild claim about your combat prowess using a single situation and he's offered, as an expert on the system, to run through, publicly, several iterations of teh same fight to see if it wasn't GM failure or fluke dice checks, and not the broken character. Very reasonable and somewhat scientific method sounding.

As for my comment previously about dodge: you did claim your dodging reduced the damage from one of the hits. Since you were in a moving van doing a drive-by, that means the GM let you 'gymnastically dodge' to soak damage, despite being in a vehicle at the time, or you seriously misspoke and somehow soaked damage some other way. Don't waffle now and say you never dodged unless you want to re-visit the fight.

Me? I'm interested in seeing MR. Lucky try it again, several times, under a by the book GM, its a great way to learn things about the system I may be missing, on either side.


I'll leave the Pilot Program thing alone: thats something I've argued at lenght in threads before: sure it'll keep the van from crashing on you, but people tend to treat agents/pilots/pets/spirits whatever as 'second characters' rather than something that needs to be mechanically be bossed around. Did you spend an action telling the van to turn around for a second pass? Giving commands to a program IS an action, you know... and it ain't 'free'...

Pete and I have also had several huge public arguments over Mr. Lucky; and he's repeatedly bragged about having taken down a similar character, gleefully making the player reconsider his choices. I hardly think he'd be impartial and fair, especially since he's publicly said he would explicitly disallow several of the legal tricks Mr. Lucky is capable of.


I consider the Reaction defense test to be dodging. You're right that I was unclear.


You have the stats, feel free to try it yourself. I'm just not going to let a biased GM try and prove a point with me. The flames would burn long and bright.

Actually, I did. By the time I was able to get the van turned around, the Decker and Face were gone. C'est la vie; even though technically this was a failure. The goal was to kill them so they didn't call their fixer. Luckily enough, they were too busy running for medical help to think about that; and besides, it would have killed the adventure.

I've seen a few of the conversations with Synner, and I don't think his comments show an axe to grind bias, but that's between you and him. Personally I know nothing of what the 'Missions' write up was, thus can't really run it myself.

As a GM I know that Mr. Lucky probably wouldn't have been so lucky, not because I'm against the type but because I'm a hard GM. Several of the things I know you use with MR. Lucky, such as bypassing all armor on a called shot are not options I use (I use the flat -4/+4 thing...), I'm sure I'd penalize (possibly after looking at the book) reaction tests to avoid getting shot while in a vehicle... you already get bonuses for the cover, and in this case you weren't even driving... which eliminates the possibility of your having 'dodged' by simply yanking the wheel. You were, essentially, a static target (albeit one actually moving).

I also fully penalize things like 'Gymnastic Dodge' as a primary defense. Sure, its legal, sure I'll let you use it, but there are times when I won't, or when using it will probably create more problems than its worth. Given time I'd probably house-rule it away, simply because it gets REALLY unbalanced when you start adding Sythecardium and such. Not because you use it, but because its obviously not meant to work that way or there wouldn't be a dodge skill (or, alternatively, Dodge could benefit from sythecardium and the like as well).

The biggest problem is that I don't use preprinted, gimped NPC's. Most combat NPC's, particularly 'enhanced' NPCs like Sammies and Adepts will have bonuses to perception (Vision enhancement, etc) or bonuses to surprise checks (combat reflexes power, wired reflexes means no Sammy should ever be rolling six or less dice on reaction anyway) never mind the fact that to sneak up on them you have to pass stealth checks, and you admit the van was Pilot controlled... the van is not noticeably stealthy.

Of course, the entire situation, like many module type adventures, sounds patently absurd. A group of runners, on the job, standing clustered on a street corner waiting for the bus or something? What are they, the Keystone Runners? I'll have to go back and read the situation you described again, but what I remember just sounds incredibly lame, lazy writing lame...

Then again, my threads on CSI:Shadowrun and the current After the Run threads pretty much put me into the catagory of 'hard boiled ice cold pro' mentality... obviously something of a minority.


Luckily, I'm too lazy to launch a crusade to change all that....

John mentioned it earlier, but the module apparently was SRM 13, Take-Out Service. You can download it yourself. I just started skimming it.

I always pictured the situation as me firing out the side windows of the van, ducking and dodging behind the vehicle's armored walls. That way, I would think I'd have full mobility and plenty of room to react. The GM thought otherwise, which is fine and dandy. I still managed to avoid taking too much damage, and High Pain Tolerance is a wonderful thing.

As far as catching them with their pants down, that was my whole idea. Smart tactics beat strong builds, any day of the week. I certainly wouldn't have attacked them if they were bunkered down with weapons drawn! That's also why I beat a retreat when I heard Docwagon coming. I knew my limits.

Now, a well-prepared team could, and should, wipe Mr. Lucky (or any build) off the map with ease. I sincerely doubt that Pete would present as opposition anything less than a well-prepared team. If we were to recreate the situation, we'd have to give me surprise again, since that was my biggest weapon. Smart tactics, remember? You don't go into a 4-on-1 battle without every advantage you can get. If I didn't have good surprise, I would have probably thrown an Edge-enhanced grenade and ran for it.

I don't recall Synner / Pete coming across as bragging in the comment that I recall - merely observing that Mr. Lucky characters had died twice in his game, iirc, but regardless, if you want something conducted impartially, now is the opportunity with the eyes of Dumpshock providing supervision and keeping all parties on the straight and narrow.

I don't know if you want to run through the exact Missions scenario again for the benefit of those of us who aren't familiar with it or how you handled it. If you do, I'd suggest we go through without dice rolls, but looking at the more probable outcomes and the reasonable range for what might happen. Or if necessary, I or another poster could contribute a couple of scenarios to try. For comparison, we'd be looking at Mr. Lucky's performance compared to a couple of other pistol combat orientated characters that people can provide.

We don't have to do this, but my reading of the thread so far suggests the general feeling is that the burden of proof is on you, Cain. Most of us are not of the opinion that Mr. Lucky is not the super-build you think, ranging from those who think it is flawed (such as myself) to those who think it is merely good, but comparable to other combat specialists.

Are you up for that?

For anyone searching the Mr. Lucky build for reference, it is on page 2.

A group of prime runners NOT defeating him has better not be specialised on combat. You´ll want to spend the first point of edge on initiative, else the thing is already done. As you´ll need to avoid Full Defense like the plague (only defense = dead), each and every defense roll will need edge. You will still be hard-pressed to gurantee(or even do) a one-shot kill, and putting a DP-3 mod on a samurai does hardly take him out. The response, delivered with proper weapons, will kill you. Your defense pool takes -2 DP per enemy (two attacks), your DR pool can be overloaded rather easily. Remember, you only got about 10 expected hits, and that would be using ANOTHER point of edge. It is also the base DV of a SMG with regular ammo on a full burst, IIRC. If you survive even against three combatants, you had real-world Luck. Capital L for a reason.

As for a dominating, no way to improve char build? Nope. I´m all for limiting ones char to 2 IPs, that is a rather sweet spot for those fighting normal guards, but if you want dominating, you NEED three. The mage will have four.
I consider the Full Defense pool smallish (as a player), and the general skillset is -even at 400 BP- lacking. A samurai can start with reaction 9, theoretically. Then there is React, and Genetic Optimisation. THEN there is synthacardium, Gymnastics 6, another Reflex Recorder... you are not even close to the top of Mr. Lucky builds.

(For the sake of this demonstration, Mr. Lucky is flawed because of lacking skills. He has more room to improve, as not needing edge in many situations certainly makes him better than before. He defeats himself, so to speak. The answer is "go buy skills, edge helps at most 8 times". It is the other way around: We need a solid base that only lacks maxxed edge, and nothing else. I´m currently trying to build one at 500 BP, I don´t think you´ll manage at 400.)

OK, as a rebuttal how about I post a character that would most likely dominate Mr. Lucky at 400BP, yet has room for improvement - wouldn't that by default show Mr. Lucky could be improved upon?

I present the antithesis of Mr. Lucky - Mr. Whacky!

Mr. Whacky is good at whacking things - so good in-fact that there is pretty much nothing short of a heavily armored troll melee expert that would survive 1 initative pass (at melee ranges of course, although full defense and free action movement certainly help to close the distance when faced with ranged experts).

Mr. Whacky is an ex-Aztlan pit fighter turned corporate bodyguard, and a biowared physad, who likes long walks on the beach and Chopin - there that is the background sorted out, on to the nitty gritty:



So we are looking at 17 dice pool Unarmed Combat attack with +1 Reach, base 13S or 13P damage and -2 AP, and a base melee dodge dice pool of 16 dice which increases to 27 dice on full defense, ranged dodge of 7 dice increasing to 12 dice on full ranged defense and 19 damage resistance to soak ballistic shots. Should be enough to close the distance to anyone armed with pistols only, and with Finishing Move giving 2 attacks in a single pass not much will still be standing once he gets to melee range.

However, he has a number of areas to improve, that will cost both karma and nuyen. Admittedly he is looking at only a few dice extra growth on his Unarmed attack, but he could still shore his defenses up, and increase his other skills to fit the melee expert role in the party (he isn't sneaky at all for one thing, which is usually a given for a melee adept expert role).

And of course, he can always increase his Edge...

Now I know people will just point out that awakened characters are the only ones who can improve, and that Cain has made this point himself. But surely that means that Mr. Lucky is not an optimal build that would dominate, as he is not awakened.

My point is simply that the chargen in SR4 is very flexible, and does allow creation of characters very close to the top of their game (which shadowrunners should really be, otherwise they would just be ordinary criminals/gangbangers) but to say that a character can be created that utterly dominates in their chosen area and is well rounded enough to face any other challenge, such that the chargen or ruleset is broken, is not a fair or accurate statement.

Here's where we stand.

I've stated I'm willing to run this little controlled experiment/scenario per Cain's description (that means he'd specify the starting situation, positions, etc as he remembers it and he also gets to roll surprise, etc), as gamemaster I would simply be using the default characters in the mission (should be easy, the writeup says to use the SR4 archetypes), and we'd walk-through the combat step by step and then analyze Mr.Lucky's performance. We would then run walk-through comparable scenarios for other pistol combat and pistol combat builds, and compare results. I'll even state right off the bat that I'd allow Mr Lucky to use any high Edge trick up his sleeve if he wants.

The only reason I would prefer to gamemaster the encounter is because I'm confident in my ability to use the SR4 ruleset. I'm not familiar enough with anyone else's gamemastering to say the same thing about them.

Thing is, apparently, I have an axe to grind because I've repeatedly stated that (a) I feel Mr.Lucky is not a game-breaker, (b) that Mr.Lucky is a valid build, just not as good as Cain thinks it is, (c ) that Mr.Lucky is entirely dependent on how individual gamemasters run Edge use (and consequently is a less "stable" build than a non-Edge based specialist), and (d) that, in my experience, Mr.Lucky has proved unsuccessful as both a combat build and as a persistent character.

So, since I seem to be out to prove something or another (which seems to imply I'd be bending the rules somehow to prove my point), and given that I am interested in making this a valid experiment, I'm perfectly willing to step back and let someone else gamemaster this encounter if anyone is interested (Ryu? samuelbeckett? Spike? knasser?) - I would just appreciate the possibility of providing feedback.

I do, however, believe Cain is indispensable to his side of the experiment since no one else here can describe the start point circumstances.

PS: For the record. I have never stated I would disallow any of Cain's Mr Lucky legal high Edge tricks in my game - in fact, in the case of the Shot Heard Around the Barrens I've stated the opposite.

a lot of this argument is very academic in bent. (which i've no problem with.) like whether or not mr. lucky can come hot off the press at the top of a particular specialty. and especially whether or not mr. lucky can dominate other characters in a particular scenario.

but occasionally people have discussed his practicality in an actual shadowrunning team. i'd argue that the character doesn't fit proper in most teams, particularly freshly produced teams, if you want th team to be well rounded. first you've got to consider that most shadowrunning teams are pretty small (3-5). that's as much for fitting the fiction as game mechanics. with so few characters, there are more skills that need someone to master them than characters to specialize in them. that means most characters will need a secondary skill that is developed well enough to be the team specialist in that skill. furthermore, because shadowrunning situations are messy and survival is so case-by-case, if the other team members compromise their combat abilities to pick up mr. lucky's slack in other areas, then one well placed grenade or ambush or any combination of factors when the team is low on edge will mean that the team is suddenly foobar.

also, maybe i missed it, but how does mr. lucky take care of an astral magician sicking a spirit on him? i don't even think the edge would get you there when you're suddenly running just your willpower against one of the more combat oriented spirits.

Isn't that a bit besides the point, since you could ask the same of pretty much any character. In the context of what we've been discussing it would only be relevant if Mr. Lucky's performance against a spirit were to be compared (and differed) from another combat specialist build.

Personally, I think Mr. Lucky is a pretty good combat build. However, I believe that unlike a non-Edged enhanced specialist (one that would be "top of his game") Mr.Lucky's efficiency degrades significantly as his Edge diminishes and once he's reduced to a "normal" Edge range he will underperform with regard to a pistol combat specialist (even non-adept).

I personally would love to see Synner GM this scene, if for no other reason than to see how he would GM it and what modifiers and tactics he would use. My players sometimes get frustrated at the tactics I use with the opposition and situational modifiers I apply.

I would not consider that an ax to grind, rather a demonstration in how he (Synner) sees the game being ran. This scene is perfect because it comes from a published scenario and we all have a chance to review the published material ahead of time and come up with our own vision of how the scene would play out.

Is this part of the Cain Challenge... or do I need a new topic called the Synner/Cain Challenge?

I think this is all covered by the question of whether or not he is on top of his game, I for one would like to see anyone take the challenge...
Except me of course, 'cause I'm not good at... Eh... Combat in general...

Four Prime Runners: Hacker / Face / Gunslinger Adept / Street Samurai. Rather open territory, all enemies in one place (method of arriving not disclosed and therefore up to the GM). (page 9 of SRM-13)

I want to see it. If the opposition disembarks their vehicles after arrival, I think some 400 BP chars should be able to do the takedown single-handed. The 450 BP chars in my group could all do it. If they don´t, things start to get iffy. At the end of IP 1, either the samurai or the gunslinger adept have to be dead.

I never said anything about dominating. That's your conceit.

I do believe its critical to be able to hold one's own or, at the least, be able to flee - which this character can't do effectively.

The setup, to the best of my knowledge, has a 4-man team of opposing shadowrunners (all four archetypes straight out of SR4) arriving at a public park after closing hours to perform a reconaissance sweep for potential ambushers.

From Cain's initial description (back on page 4) I presume the team has been chased off after encountering resistance in the park and the scene takes place on a nearby street corner. Cain orders his van's Pilot to casually move past and performs a driveby shooting.

I'm unclear on a number of potentially relevant tactical points in the specific scenario which Cain was involved in. For instance, I'm unsure what ranges were involved, whether the runners were standing right next to their vehicle(s) or out in the open without cover, how they were grouped, etc. I can make assumptions on lighting conditions (11:30 at night, street-lights near a closed park) and I can presume the opposition was combat prepared (after all they had just encountered resistance and were chased off by the ambushers they were sent to scout out) - but I may be wrong. So, for the purpose of this experiment I am perfectly willing to let Cain describe the tactical situation and positioning all the way up to the Surprise Test.

From that point on it's all down to (as Cain would put it) "smart tactics", "optimized builds", and being "lucky" - for both sides (which is fine since it'll ensure Mr Lucky lives up to his name).

For the record: I think Mr Lucky has a better than average chance of surviving this encounter. I just think to do so he'll spend 2-3 Edge to do it and possibly have to permanently burn one point. I also think a non-maxed Edge combat specialist will fare better in the same circumstances. This would prove that Mr. Lucky is not at "the top of his game" as a combat specialist.

For the record: If a team of shadowrunners is exfiltrating a hostile run environment... as you suggest, then I personally would be extremely unlikely to even allow a surprise test.. at least not that close to where they KNOW hostiles are.

One van moving down a presumably deserted (its late) street right at their position is exactly where they'd be watching for trouble.

Now, if they were driving down I-5 during an exfil during rush hour and shots rang out from a faceless random car... maybe, but being that they're expecting trouble they'd probably get a situational bonus... sure they weren't expecting THOSE shots from THAT car, but their already keyed up for danger, they'll react instinctively according to their training and expectations.

In this particular case, his tactic allows him to close to pistol ranges without taking fire, as they are uncertain of his intent. An unseen sniper might get the Surprise test, with bonus, simply because he is an unseen threat.

Of course, since the Sammy didn't get a shot off (as I recall) I can't protest that a Sammy went on a recon in force with only a pistol/smg... in a park (wide open spaces, long sight lines... yeah, thats assault rifle territory... depending on neighborhood and GM's setting specific rules regarding assault rifles commonality)

I can only refer to experience and theory. In theory, he would dominate. In my personal experience, he tends to dominate; at least in the SRM modules I've played in. YMMV, of course, but I still assert that with smart tactics and 8 Edge, you probably will win over similar builds.

Karmically improve. We can always improve a sam build by adding deltaware, but that's not the point of this discussion. If I could afford delta Wired 3, he would already have it.


I'm happy with an acedemic argument as well. And in my experience, a well-rounded team will consist of Combat, Tech, Magic, and Social. You can cover that with 4 characters, and sometimes less. For example, I've seen a rigger pretty much dominate the combat aspect of a team while also handling the tech skills. At any event, "one well-placed grenade or ambush or combination of other factors" can FUBAR just about any team.

Once again, theory and experience. In theory, he should do well. In my experience, he dominates combat, to the point where I have to hold him back to let the other players do their thing.

I'm uncertain of some of those details myself, since we hadn't exactly pulled out minis at this point. I had Image Mag 3, so I presume I was less than 30m away. At the point where I came across them, I had a very good roll on a Perception test to spot them, arguing vehemently over something. They didn't have guns drawn, but I presume they had a full combat loadout.


You're right that I did spend Edge, but I certainly didn't burn any. At any event, given that I only had one Combat turn, I'm uncertain as to how I could have done better with pistols. Arsenal wasn't out at this point, so fully automatic pistols weren't an option. Maybe if the Adept had gone sooner, I would have had a shot at the others; but the edge spent on survival turned out to be a decent choice.

Within 400 BP, quite a few characters will have better ware. The statline you have going is nice, but from my experience not the best you can do. Karmically, at least Reaction 5 and Intuition 5 are in order. Depending on your Armor, you should also increase Willpower to get another box on the condition monitor. 30 Karma or 60 Karma. Your initiative is not that bad, just not up to par.

Skills... I agree that such a build has to have an incomplete skillset. The points have to come from somewhere. Still, Gymnastics 4 is the minimum requirement for combat. You are not really going to forego an action for a measly 4 defense dice? 14 Karma, preferably 24 Karma for rating 5. Of no concern to this discussion, but I would not like to play a char that does everything by luck.

And I´m not buying the delta-ware argument. You get to spend 250k¥ at chargen, and if you don´t, you may fail to be top of your game. And Mr. Lucky is quite lacking in the ware department, only partially due to the 60k¥ left unspend. Do your best within 400 BP, then we can look at "no room to improve". Excluding an area where practically unlimited money can be spend in a test of using limited resources is not sporting. No, we won´t throw "go delta" at you, it is not chargen legal.


For the situation variables: We would need to know the kind of car used. And we would need guesstimates on the armament of the opposition. One might assume that the samurai did not use his LMG. We are also not talking my group, where the part-time hacker carries a Sniper Rifle. Depending on the car, we´d need to know if using a few grenades is fair game. Were there cars parked along the road when the ambush took place? Any side alleys reachable?

This is your opinion. I am not debating that you hold this opinion, I am debating whether it is accurate. I cannot put this more simply than I already have. You have this opinion. My reading of this thread suggests that your opinion is very much in the minority. The burden of proof is on you and the only means to prove it is to go through some examples. Stating your opinion again is not proof and no-one will accept it as such. We are in disagreement on the "theoretical" outcome (I would say, rather, the statistical outcome) and your personal experience counts for nothing in terms of proof without the detail of the examples.

If you wish to convince any of us of what you're saying, we will require you to work through some examples for us.



On that principle then it is senseless to put any ware in your starting character or even purchase equipment, because it's just wasted BPs in terms of demonstrating unimprovability.

But your comment does raise another interesting issue. It's an artificial complaint to say that the system doesn't give you room to improve when improvement through equipment / ware is very much a part of the game. You may not like that. It may not fit your aesthetic, but like it or not, the intention in Shadowrun is that this should be a possible avenue of progression. For you to dismiss that for purposes of saying "my character can't advance" is merely showing your argument is strongly based on your personal tastes.



This well illustrates a weakness in the Mr. Lucky character. The dependence on Edge to achieve the levels of success that a non-Edge focused character achieves, gives the character much less staying power than his rivals.

If you want to convince any of us Cain, and the amount of words you spend on these sorts of threads suggests you must, you are going to HAVE to do it by detailed, by the numbers examples. We wont be convinced by any amount of your blank statements of "in theory" and "in my experience"

-K.

The car was a Bulldog Stepvan, only modded with an improved Pilot (Rating 4) and painted to look like a pizza delivery truck. (La Cosa Nostra Pizzaria, if you get the joke and reference.) Based on the Missions description, I think the characters were fresh out of the BBB; since the sammie died first, he didn't have a chance to use any of his armament. As far as I can remember, this was a quiet residential road, but not totally abandoned, so a late-night pizza delivery wouldn't be suspicious. This was before Arsenal, so everything was fresh out of the BBB. (The van now has Chameleon Paint, which I consider to be essential to any Shadowrunning vehicle you intend to keep.) Presumably, all cars were in their garages, except for theirs. The decker had very good cover, IIRC.


I've given several examples over the course of different threads, people just don't seem to like the ones I give. When I demonstrate, repeatedly, how effective Mr. Lucky is, people whinge that it's a fluke. He's one example of a combat character at the top of his game; I've never claimed that you can't have others. I do maintain, however, that an Edge of 8 is a game-breaker, leading to things like one-shotting a Citymaster and The Shot Heard Round The Barrens.


Once again, you (deliberately?) misread my argument. Once again, I am referring solely to Karmic advancement. Advancement through other means is not a part of this debate. It is entirely possible to have one skill/stat combination so completely maxed out at chargen, there is no way to improve it through karma. What's up for debate is rather having that maxed-out area, plus being well-rounded in other areas, equates to a character who can no longer improve his primary area. In short, does a maxed-out pistols skill count as a broad enough "area"?


*Shrug* Again in my experience, it's rare for anyone to go through a serious combat without spending Edge. Certainly the Gunslinger Adept was spending Edge left and right. YMMV, but if you're interested, you might want to start a poll thread on this one.

So wait a minute. This character only gets 2 IP. He could literally double his offensive power in a sustained engagement by having 4 IP. He is an adept and he could spend Karma to get to four Initiative Passes. But you're not going to. You're going to spend some ¥ at a later date to get those IP by purchasing cyberware which duplicate what you want to get.

By that logic, aren't all characters advancement agnostic if you are playing with Cash for Karma? After all, getting ¥ in a pile can purchase attribute or skill advancement, so with arbitrary amounts of ¥ they don't ever need to earn another point of Karma. That seems uniquely unpersuasive as a platform to argue from.

In short, by the time we give you the interpretations of your claim, it no longer seems to matter. Seriously, the character has dicepools which are "high enough" and the character's intended advancement paths are monetary rather than karmic. He doesn't have the highest theoretical dice pools, he doesn't want for nothing, and so on.

Basically you're saying that the game is flawed because you personally don't feel shorted by a starting character you can make. I am flat perplexed by what meaning that is supposed to convey.

-Frank

He's not an adept. Where did you get that from?

If you consider one skill a broad enough area for your character, than yes, there is no room for improvement. Except that you always can get better in agility. Even with the printed archtypes and some changes in equipment, the would-be attacker would need more damage resistance than Mr. Lucky has to offer. If your usual loadout on a run includes a few grenades, you can then proceed to wreck the vehicle. 10P-2 against a citymaster causes about 2 DV after armor, without net hits. If a window is open, you aim the grenade inside the vehicle. Not pretty.

And again,no karmic improvement possible? I´ve shown areas where one can spend upwards of 50 karma. In one skill, after you decided to spend many BP, you may have no room for improvement. Congratulations, king of the hill. If you wanted to climb the hill ingame, why did you start out at the target?

I have a few different types of players in my group. They are all content at the same time because they have choosen their point on the power scale. And our combatants could afford to loose initiative to Mr. Lucky using Edge. Full Defense pools should be at about 12-16 dice. Reaction 8 is a matter of pride for samurai. Synthacardium is so good as to be the new enhanced articulation, but almost better. Love the stuff.

Mr. Lucky is not game-breaking in comparison, he seems fragile. He needs to spend edge in order to be amongst the first to act, edge to win surprise tests (and is not the guranteed winner if both sides spend edge). Edge to do damage. Properly armored targets make combat last longer than one round. Once edge is out, Mr. Lucky has sub-par defensive ability, initiative, and only average damage output. I´m not impressed, would councel against it, but would allow him ingame.

What I would want to see demonstrated is how he even does one of his tricks, ie this driveby. A run has, after all, more than one such scenario, and he would need to make do with a few points of edge.

*Shrug* YMMV, I guess; but having played Mr. Lucky, I can tell you that he is always the damage king; he wins surprise tests (because initiative ties are first solved by who has the highest Edge). He's only spent Edge on damage four times that I can recall, and once was just to show off. He also payed the dead minimum at the Splatter Bar in SRM 13. And he's *never* come close to running out of Edge. Never dropped to less than half, IIRC.


I have demonstrated this drive-by. And two theoretical scenarios: one being the Shot Heard Round the Barrens, and the second being the one-shot-kill on a Citymaster with a flechette pistol. I've eve n posted the stats, so people can run the same character through their own scenarios, without my bias. I've already posted conclusive proof, multiple times. What more do you want?

Snow Crash , Neal Stephenson. I can has karma?



I've never seen a complete worked through example of a combat with Mr. Lucky, which is what I'm asking for. I maintain that a complete example is necessary to resolve this debate as otherwise we keep coming back to your statements that X is "obviously" or "theoretically" so which I and others do not feel is supported. Please post an actual scenario with Mr. Lucky so that we can compare performance with non Mr-Lucky characters. Or I could provide one if you wont.



"Whinge" is pejorative. I have never whinged, nor stated that any performance was a fluke. As one of your main detractors, I feel included in the above. As stated, I am happy to work through an example with you, here on the forums.



You do still maintain that. However we have The Thread Of Infinite Length which consisted almost entirely of people taking apart your Citymaster and Shot Heard Round the Barrens examples to the satisfaction of everyone involved but yourself. Please let's not reopen that one and please don't try to slip your discredited examples into other debates as arguments on your side when you know full well that everyone bar yourself considers those examples to be false.

The complete thread on the subject is here and anyone who wants to reopen this debate with Cain should read through the entire 21 pages of that thread and consider carefully whether they have anything to add that hasn't already been said.



I have not misunderstood your argument. I have said that it is not complete. I understand that you are referring solely to underlined, italicised, bolded karmic advancement only. I'm not sure what gave you the impression that I'm an idiot. What I clearly said was that it is incorrect to refer solely to karmic advancement. I will put this very, very bluntly - I am saying that you, Cain, do not like SR4 rules and are deliberately narrowing your focus to exclude things that undermine your criticisms.

You complain that characters have no room to advance out of chargen and that this impairs your enjoyment. To do this, you ignore a very large area of character development which by design is meant to be part of the enjoyment of advancing your character. You say "advancement through other means is not part of this debate." I'm not going to grant you the right to frame the debate how you choose. If you want to talk only about karmic advancement then you may do so. But if you are going to base on that a larger conclusion that the game is flawed because it doesn't allow advancement, then you have to take into account whether there are other means of advancement. Which there are.

Though knowing the way you work, I expect you to respond to the above with some variation of "that wouldn't be necessary if they allowed karmic advancement" which I will pre-empt by pointing out that I never agreed there wasn't room for karmic advancement. You are the sole person convinced of that. Again.



Your character does not have this. If you are going to argue this, then please start from posting a character that this is true for. The title of this thread is the Cain Challenge. You were asked very simply to post a character that justified your statement. We are now on page 6 and still you have failed to do so. Mr. Lucky, by your own admission is not such a character.

Let me summarise this thread:

Dumpshock: You say you can create a character with no practical need for advancement. Please show us.
Cain: I will do, but it's obvious.
Dumpshock: We disagree. Please show us.
Cain: It's obvious because of this. Also I think X.
Dumpshock: We disagree. Please show us your character.
Cain: You're wrong where you disagree because I think Y.
Dumpshock: Please show us your character.
Cain: Here's a character. But it's not as good as I could do to illustrate that point. Just take my word for it.
Dumpshock: Um, thanks. Please show us your character.
Cain: I think I'm right.
Dumpshock: Please show us your character.
Cain: Look over there! It's a problem with the Called Shot rules.
Dumpshock: Please show us your character.
Cain: LOOK! JUST ACCEPT THAT I'M RIGHT, OKAY?
Dumpshock: Please show us your character.

Is anyone bored with this yet? You made an outrageous statement, confidently boasted that you could produce a character with no practical need for advancement and for six pages have failed to produce such a character, or work through examples as asked. The closest you've come to it was stating that it takes you a long time to produce a fourth ed. character because of the hideousness of the 4th ed. chargen rules (strangely enough, the rest of us seem to manage). Look - we know that the fourth edition rules burns you to touch them, but put some gloves on and try it for us, eh? It was a simple challenge. Put up or shut up. Right now, you come across as all mouth and no trousers. People disagree with you. If you want to convince anyone you need to provide an example. How can I put this any more clearly? Saying "I'm right" in no matter how many ways, will NOT convince us. Show us.

And please - don't just reply with some statement that you have because I've never seen such an example. And please don't just say it's obvious, because we disagree with you that this is so. An example. Complete. In this thread. This century. Are you capable of that?

Regards,

-Khadim.

I´m not contesting that your concept is playable. I´d be fine with you occasionally having the highest DV output of the whole group, you paid a load of BP to get that ability. I am of the opinion you are paying way to many BP, and therefore can´t be top of the game, on a few more dice in Pistols. I am, to use Synners terms, more seeing the combat part than the pistols part.

And I´m not interested in an executive summary on the drive-by, I want to see it in play. I think you can do it, but it will be hard.

I concur with knasser, aside from the fact I am happy to allow you to narrow the focus to karmic advancement as long as you can demonstrate that there is no possibility for any meaningful advancement - that is, you need to post a character who you truly believe to be bereft of any meaningful possibilities for karmic advancement after they have been created using normal 400BP rules, and then run them through the combat example you have given to demonstrate their either ranged or melee combat superiority and prove they have no weak points that would require such advancement. I don't, and it appears others also don't, believe that Mr. Lucky fits those criteria.

I have already posted two characters in this thread - Gunbunny and Mr. Whacky - who are built on 400BP, are closer to the top of their game (ranged and melee) than I believe Mr. Lucky is (although Gunbunny is definitely a less rounded combatant, terms of defense and survivability, than Mr. Whacky in his chosen field), and have plenty of potential to advance both karmically and through nuyen/'ware.

I also concur Synner should GM the encounter, as I'm sure we will all cry foul if we feel he is less than impartial.

Looking forward to seeing your character...

We've gotten way off track, despite my best efforts to remain so. If you look back in this thread, I never claimed that Mr. Lucky met the challenge in its entirety, just that he met it for Pistols. The full character concept to fulfill the challenge has been posted. The OP has even conceded. As usual, and as is common for SR4, it will take me several days to complete the character, but others can run with the concept if they're impatient.

I think people see Mr. Lucky, remember the fights, and blow their tops automatically. He is proof of principle that you can max out one area, but not the actual proof. Look back to the first pages of this thread, and repeatedly throughout, this is what I've said all along. This time, I'm not arguing that Mr. Lucky breaks the system, and I have no idea why the others are. Instead of arguing the principle, the same people who couldn't win the previous Mr. Lucky arguments are chafing at the bit for a rematch.

If someone wants a scenario, they're welcome to do it themselves. They've got the character(s), they've got the tactical situation as I remember it, they've got what they need. If they want to run under a biased GM, or do it themselves, they can. No matter what I do, no matter how many encylopedias of proof I provide. I am not going to convince the anti Mr. Lucky crowd that the character is highly effective. I'm going to just barely be able to keep this argument on track.

Now, the question is this: Can we create a character that has no meaningful room for karmic advancement? I've provided two characters that fulfill the principle, and the vital parts of one that meets the challenge. Would someone less controversial like to finish the character for me? Once I add an Edge of 8, the usual crowd will explode. This is the best way to avoid a flame war.

Can we watch the fight now? Yesterdays game sucked, I want to be entertained.

Many protestations there Cain, that you're trying so hard to keep this thread on track. Please re-check the title of this thread, Cain. It is a personal challenge to you to post a character that is:



All of your means of distracting from actually posting this build, are NOT "keeping this thread on track." What would be keeping this thread on track would be to post such a build. Please do so like you claim you can.



Actually, you did:



Nobody has been convinced by this. However, taking your latest statement of what you think (and I'm glad you concede that Mr. Lucky does not meet the challenge), you have said that you can create a character that does meet the challenge. Please do so.



You have posted 1 (one) character so far - Mr. Lucky (which you said might be out a few points here and there). Nobody thinks Mr. Lucky meets the challenge, not even (at last), you. Please post the character that does meet it which you claim to have created / be able to create.



You are trying to attribute personal bias to your detractors. Given that most people are merely saying that they think Mr. Lucky is a reasonable build, but not optimal, I'm hardly picking up the instinctive blowing of tops you're accusing people of. As to your comment about Mr. Lucky being a "proof of principle" but not "actual proof" I think you should take a couple of classes in logical debate. We require proof, not what constitutes in your opinion a "proof of principle." You have said you can produce such a character, please do so.



Win? Last time? See - here is the problem. You are entrenched in a battle to win an argument on the Internet. You are incapable of accepting that you are wrong or logically inconsistent without accepting that you have "lost." This is unfortunate because you are both wrong and logically inconsistent. Nobody here is out for your blood because of the last thread (at least not many), we're just sick of you spending six pages saying you can produce a character out of chargen with no practical need for advancement without acceding to constant requests to actually do so. Again - please post this character or accept that people will disagree with you without proof. You seem unable to do the former (or you would have done so) and psychologically incapable of the latter (because then you would "lose").



We don't have the character. Please post it.



We are not asking for encylopedias of proof. We are asking for a post of this character you claimed you could build. And cease claiming you are nobly trying to keep this thread on track when you start throwing up straw men about an "anti- Mr. Lucky crowd." We are saying that Mr. Lucky does not meet this challenge. Something you yourself have said. If you want to keep this thread on track, then post a character that does meet this challenge. You've said you can so please do so.



Actually no, the question is will Cain ever actually post a character that meets the challenge like he keeps saying is so easy? Or, after six pages, is it more likely that Cain is just going to string out the thread as long as he possibly can with his usual inability to engage with reality. I would be interested to see that complete build for such a character. If you can actually post it, then please do so.

In Cain's defense, he did say it would take him a few days. Regardless of whether or not it takes anyone else that long to create a character, Cain indicated that it would for him. He reiterated that point in his last post, if I remember correctly, too, so give him a chance.

See, this is what I mean. Instead of arguing points, now we're arguing personalities. I've seen no refutation of my points that wasn't buried in Ad Hominems; to the point where they're near-indistinguishable. If this were someone else making the argument, it'd be over already and won in his favor.

Can you utterly max out part of a character at chargen? Yes. Are people arguing this point? Yes, and I have no idea why. Does anyone here seriously believe that you cannot max out one area of a character at the very beginning? Then the point is made. Can you come so close that further improvement won't make a difference? Yes. Mr. Lucky is proof of the principle that you can do so, since there's exactly one die worth of karmic pistol improvement possible for him.

No matter what character I provide, the moment I give him Edge 8, someone is going to complain that he's not well-rounded enough. So, since this was an ill-defined challenge to begin with, I'll ask the OP for clarification. Oh, wait, he already conceded. I thus postulate that no one is going to provide agreeable enough terms for this challenge to possibly be met. Please define what an "area" is.

I think the argument is not that you cannot get close to maximum in a particular combination of attribute and skill, such that you have limited ability to improve in that combination using karma (although as FrankTrollman pointed out, not being able to improve and choosing not to improve are two different matters).

I think the crux of the argument is that maxing (or close to maxing) a particular skill does not mean there is not room to improve karmically in order to make the character more viable in their chosen area (i.e. Pistols combat for Mr. Lucky). For example, it is clear that Mr. Lucky could improve defensively, either by increasing his ranged or melee defense dice pools or by increasing his body. Yes, Edge can act as a subsitute for these things, but surely you can't argue that the character would not be better if they can reduce their reliance on Edge. Similarly, the reliance on Skillwires could be dropped by karmic improvement.

If you truly believe you can create a character who will be the epitome of Pistol combat then all we are asking is that you post it. If it takes time to do, then take the time.

And for clarity, I would regard the epitome of Pistol combat as being a character that is so dominant and well rounded when using a pistol in combat that they can succeed again and again even when the odds are stacked against them (i.e. multiple combatants, they don't have initiative, situational modifiers are against them), rather than situations where they catch a bunch of people with their pants down and get some lucky dice rolls.

I know the popular saying is 'better to be lucky than good', but luck will only carry you so far...