I believe with that firearms skill he would crit success alot, and if memory serves RAW would/could mean he would get an edge back, right?


*edit* But then again, as I write this, since there really isn't much of a way to crit success with a firearms skill (no set threshold) is there......
Carry on... nothing to see here.

lets see... start with an elf, get em an agility cap of 8. add a custom cyberlimb with agility 8(12) and a cybertorso. reflex recorder, smartlink, and then get your skill to 7(+2). now you have stat 12, skill 7+2+1, with +2 smartlinked, for 24 dice of shooting. you can do it at chargen. lets assume we maxed out automatics, and are using arm strength 6 (1 pt recoil compensation) and the other bits to reduce recoil (no book in front of me atm and i forget the name of it)

24 dice is a lot. now, its only 22 outside of specilization, but being able to default to 11 dice for agility with that arm is usefull. maybe get 2 cyberarms maxed with ambidex, and have an SMG in each hand. dice pool splits to 11, which is plenty ugly to begin with(no smartlink).

heck, you can get even higher agility and thus dicepool, if you decide that cyberlimb attributes can exceed the augmented cap.

don't forget to Optimize your cyberarm(s) for shooting firearms.

Very true, but it is also true that a lvl 3 or 2 or even lvl 1 skillwire can make up for any skill based shortcomings...



The Skillwire Expert System partly makes up for this, but you could just swith off the skillwire and go Edge completely...



Yes, but we've already covered that, I (and some others) believe that just being able to shoot every firearm like Rambo on Speed doesn't make you on top of your game, for a combat character, surviving combat is just as important as being able to dish it out...

I also tried to make an answer to this challenge and it is possible to create a char that has very little room for improvement in his chosen field, but this would be a face, max charisma, get the skill group on 4, intimidate on 6, tailored pheromones, the whole nine yards, and still have a good amount of BPs left over...
Of course, then I figured I could improve him by making him an adept, but as Cain pointed out (in the other thread I think) the only ones that can keep improving are adepts and mages (and probably TMs)...

Shadowrun is at its heart, a realistic game. And the truth is that there is a limit to how accurate someone can get with a gun (when error due randomness of wind, target movement, etc. exceeds the error margin of user targetting); to how persuasive they can be to others they've just met (people's personality cannot suddenly be rewritten); how knowledgeable you can be about software (when there's nothing left to read). And so Shadowrun contains these limits.

And just as the existence of limits is realistic, the ability to start of near them is realistic. Is it wrong for me to say I want to create a thirty-year old character who has spent most of his adult career as an army sniper and is enthusiastic about being the best at his job? And if it isn't wrong to create a character background like that then isn't it realistic for such a character to maybe be very close to as good as they can get? After all, their ability is probably going to diminish thereafter. Particularly in areas of physical fitness. And so Shadowrun allows you to create characters near these limits because to forbid it means forcing everyone to create inexperienced adolescents or hum-drum adults for our characters.

Shadowrun's aim of realism demands reachable limits and not imposing draconian restrictions on character background demands that they should be near reachable at chargen.

If you want a game where the satisfaction is derived ever-increasing character power then you're going to have to play D&D or similar. The approach D&D uses works for D&D because it is acceptable to have level 20 fighters walking around with all their vast superiority over level 1 fighters. But the result of that is challenges are first of all based around character power rather than strategy and tactics. This is what we want from D&D, but you couldn't introduce ever-climbing character power in your PC's speciality area in Shadowun without producing a similar environment to D&D - one in which your "level 8" PCs come up against "level 8" opposition and the "level 1" guards are ignored. That's not what we want from Shadowrun. We want a game where you definitely don't want a "level 1" security guard coming upon you from behind with a SMG. And that's what we get.

For the record, I don't consider the original boast of being able to produce a character that needs no advancement to be anywhere close to met by the Mr. Lucky build, but I wanted to say the above in the context of hitting your limit in a specialist area. It's not a problem - it's necessary in order that Shadowrun should have the feel that it does.

My 0.02

-Khadim.

We're getting off the track of the original challenge, which was to create a character who was so good in his chosen areas, and so well-rounded elsewhere, there was little need for karmic advancement. I think Mr. Lucky as written fits that bill. We could also include a Pornomancer, who has every social skill at something like 20 dice minimum. Neither one of them really have any room to grow in their chosen fields.

As for adding other skills: sure, you can always add that Underwater Basket Weaving skill, but what's the point? If it doesn't add anything to the character concept, as opposed to the character abilities, then it's not really character growth, is it? It's just adding things for numerical advantage. I'm a big proponent of Hobby skills, and I'd rather see Mr. Lucky increase his Sports/Rodeos skill than add a technical skill against character type.

Mr. Lucky isn't on top of his game, IMHO, since he depends too much on how often Edge refreshes...
Also, he could improve his Agility and Reaction, but as you pointed out before this only makjes a 1 or 2 die difference...
He would also benefit from raising his gymnastics and UC...
But it is true that he benifits a lot more from money gain than karmic gain...
Which can be said about most mundane characters...
The pornomancer is, however, on top of his game, he's even quite beyond the game...
But you (Cain that is) yourself said adepts and mages can keep improving...
Anyway, Mr. lucky does prove that his shtick only benefits from 50 karma or so (very rough estimate)...
If his shtick is combat with pistol and fist...

So how would you classify "chosen field?"

For the Pornomancer, it's obviously him doing pornos, and everything related. Yippee.

For a Street Samurai Shadowrunner, it's Shadowrunning, and that means needing appropriate skills. Combat, stealth, perception, dodge, fast talk, that sort of thing. I'm not sure your Mr. Lucky meets the requirements of your challenge, Cain.

I just have to say that specializing Gymnastics in Dodging is too cheesy even for me!

Well, I'd say a pornomancers field is social, and he can (literaly) talk his way into and out of anything...
So Charisma, Influence and Intimidation...
For a sammy, it would be combat...
So Strength, Agility, Reaction, Body, Ranged combat skill(s), Close combat skill(s) and Dodge (or gymnastics)...

So where does that leave "Mr. Lucky"?

Needing Karma and ...

EDIT: And a lot mote than my original estimate, I was using another game system for advancement...
That's what happens when you dont pay attention...
But let's see...
Body: 5 (is enough, better to boost with ware, but this means upgrading some existing ware)
Quickness: 5 (7) (Buy up to 6 - it's his shtick - 18 Karma)
Reaction: 4 (6) (Buy up to 6 - 33 Karma; Would also benefit from upgraded wired reflexes, costly, but again, not in Karma)
Strength: 2 (4) (Same as with body)

Skills
Pistols (Semi auto) 7
Gymnastics (Dodging) 2 (Buy up to 6 - 36 Karma)
Unarmed combat (martial arts) 2 (Buy up to 6 - 36 Karma)
Con (Fast talk) 1
infiltration (Urban) 2

So 123 Karma in total (and tons of , to get on top of his (combat) game...

I have to say, after all the reoccuring hullabaloo about t3h Mr. Lucky, this build leaves me seriously underwhelmed... Quite like Moon-Hawk, I don't see him as hideously underpowered and unplayable, but he hardly is the monster he was made out to be.
As an answer to the challenge of presenting a character that is so "on top of his game" that there is "no room for improvement" however, this build borders on being off-topic. There are so many avenues underdeveloped or completely unexplored with this character, it's not even funny.
Even if his "game" should only be shooting people in the face with pistols, there are whole battaillons of gunbunnies that enter the game and outperform him straight out of the box. I mean, he shoots pretty well, with pistols, and Cain is probably right in saying that Mr. Lucky might have little incentive to improve his skill in shooting with pistols, but there is still room.
Apart from that, though, what is it that this char has going for him? His 8 Edge? Whoopee! In every moderately realistic game, he should be burning Edge left and right just to cover up the glaring obvious holes in his skillset. There is so much more missing than his level 3 skillwire - which, mind you, can only supprot up to 2 x rating in skillpoints at any given time - can cover up. AND his mental stats are a mess, he would be walked all over by everyody with one or two points in either a) any social skill, b) any infiltration skill, c) magic.
His ressources are few to begin with, and they are spread too thin, with the only thing to keep him alive his - quickly depleted - gimmick.
Now, Cain, don't get me wrong, if you enjoy playing that character, if he works in your game, then more power to you, I am just saying that, in any game I ever been in, both as GM or player, Mr. Lucky would not waltz all over the place, he'd sweat and cry like everybody else, maybe even a little more than some others. And he'd cherish every little karma point he could get his little hands on.

[edit: Or, to cut it short: What ArkonC said]
[edit2: Before he edited his post... you know, only the one-liner...]

Also, and I keep meaning to post this... What takes you so long to build characters, Cain? 2-4 days can't possibly be accurate. It takes me less than an hour, and that's even with being picky and using PDF's instead of books.

that argument would be a bit more compelling if SR4's firearm mechanics bore even the remotest resemblance to reality.

You point the gun at someone and pull the trigger and if you're accurate they get shot. If you're more accurate, the bullet is more accurately placed and the target suffers greater injury. That's reflected in the rules. Some weapons fire more damaging or penetrating ammunition and both of these are also reflected in the rules. I know little about fatality statistics for gunfire, but I get the impression that gunshots are often not fatal but easily can be. That's the sort of result you see with SR4 rules again. And you can spray bullets around an area with automatic weapons or try and keep shooting at a single target with multiple bullets. Again - covered. What's outside the bounds of "remotest resemblance to reality" ?

interestingly enough, DSF gun discussions actually make me want to take cover... =P

*hides*

Or maybe we could not start arguing the realism of trying to capture reality in dice rolls here...
If you want to discuss this, you should make a thread...

forgive my hyperbole, but d20 gets most of that right too. in terms of accuracy and its limits, SR4 fails pretty much universally--range, visibility, burst/autofire, and the like are so wildly misrepresented that it's largely useless to discuss the practical limits of accuracy. yes, there are practical limits to accuracy, but when an unaugmented, non-maxed shooter can reliably hit a target a klick away in complete darkness without stopping to aim, i think it's fair to say that those practical limits are not and cannot be part of the game. there can still be limits, of course, but those limits have nothing to do with what the realistic limits actually are.

edit: ArkonC is correct, this isn't the thread for this particular discussion. if anybody wants to have it, i'll gladly join another thread, but i've made my point here and i don't want to derail the other discussion.

Which, if the character is built at all accurately, he will already have. Being a pure street sam means you're not a ninja/rigger/decker/mage combo. It means you're good at combat, and there are many builds out there that are effectively maxed at combat. The Pornomancer is the uber-face with some shadowrunning skills; and come on now, there's not much more you can do to improve his social abilities in any meaningful sense.


Mr. Lucky has been played in several Shadowrun Missions games. So far, the only karma he's spent is to raise his Quickness to 6, and that was because I couldn't figure out anything else to do with it. And when I get to play, I have to bite my tongue to keep him from dominating a game. He took on an entire team of prime runners (named characters) by himself and won. He's never come close to spending all of his Edge, and has gone through at least one Mission without spending any at all. I have outfaced the face, been more sneaky than the ninja, and always dominated combat with that character. About all I haven't done is decking and magic, and those were deliberate choices when the character was built.

But once again, we're getting off topic. Mr. Lucky is proof of principle that you can completely dominate one area (in this case, pistol combat) and be so well-rounded in other areas, there's not much point in improvement. He doesn't actually need his other skills to be at a high level, he just needs enough to get by. High levels of, say, social skills is the province of the face. Shadowrun is meant to be a team game, and making a one-man shadowrunning team is not desireable in any way, form, or fashion. However, making someone who fills his role so well, he cannot bring anything more to the team except backup, is an easy proposition.

As I said earlier I think Mr. Lucky is prone to improvement...
I even gave a quick rundown of how he could improve his combat usefulness...
Anyway, I'm not convinced...

Like someone else said, it depends on how wide of an area we're discussing. "All combat" is too broad, while apparently people feel that "Pistols" is too small. However, the principle remains. There's nothing that can be done to significantly improve Mr. Lucky's ability with pistols. Maybe we can add a die here or there, but not a lot of improvement can be made. As far as the rest goes, melee combat is the province of the adept, so he only needs enough to defend himself with. Similarly, there's no need for an increase in Strength.

But if we go to "all firearms" as an area, we can take the basic Mr. Lucky build, and give him a 4 in Longarms and Automatics. Now we have a character with 18 dice in pistols and 15 with other firearms, and is well-rounded enough in noncombat skills that he doesn't really need to worry about improving them. Maybe raise the Quickness, but that's only one die.

Well, that ends that challenge, I shall not make any statements on it as that would give me the last word and prompt a response which is unlikely to convince me...
Let's say it's been interesting...

your challenge is impossible to meet because it's incredibly ill-defined.

Are you serious?
You say nothing of relevance the whole thread and when it's over then you have issues with the challenge?

i have issues with you arbitrarily deciding it's over after someone requests clarification on the terms of the challenge, yes. the discussion is interesting, even if i don't have anything to add to it at this point.

All right, in quotes then:

How I think Mr. Lucky can be improved within his chosen field:


I showed where I thought he could use improvement, Cain rebutted, do you really want me and Cain to go back and forth saying the same things in different words?
He thinks Mr. Lucky is on top of combat, I do not...
If you have anything to add that might change this, add it...
Otherwise, I don't see what else we can add...

Pistol combat, yes. There's not a lot more he can do to improve his Pistols ability.

Like Mfb said, I don't know what you mean by "area". I've shown two different builds that dominate in firearms; and I just have to mention the Pornomancer to show someone who dominates in the whole social arena. You want an ultimate shadowrunner? Then you want a character we'd all take one look at, cry "Munchkin!", and then reject from our tables. But if you want someone who completely dominates one area, and is well-rounded in just about every other area, that's more than possible.

As I said before, shooting a pistol is only part of pistol combat, not getting shot is also an important part...
And about the pornomancer you yourself said adepts can keep growing so the pornomancer is nowhere near the top of his game, give the pornomancer 500 Karma and he'll be a whole lot better than too damn fuckin' (pun intended) good...
I also said that a non adept or mage face can be at the top of his game straight out of chargen, in fact, I was the first to say that...
That is what I mean when I said repeating ourselves with different words...

he doesn't have to be on top of combat, assuming that by 'on top' you mean 'best he could possibly be'. he just has to be good enough to succeed in most situations, which he most certainly is. that's what Cain is talking about--not that there's no possibility of advancement, just that there's no real advancement that will be a significant improvement.

what you're talking about is branching out into other areas. Cain's guy is a badass pistoleer and a competent jack-of-all-trades; with the improvements you've listed, you're making him a badass all-around combatant. to be sure, that's not a bad thing to be, but it's not an advancing him as a pistoleer.

I agree about the UC and Str being branching out...
But not getting shot? (Reaction and Dodge(gymnastics in this case))
I'd say that is essential...
That right there is 69 Karma of significant improvement...

But Cain's character only has 2 Initiative Passes and a mediocre defense pool. He's actually not that impressive in combat, just at target practice. Edge isn't much of a substitute for a good defense pool.

His Full Defense is only 10 dice. Professional security forces with smart links rolls 8 dice and fire twice per round. And that's including his completely bullshit "Dodging" specialization on Gymnastics. Frankly I wouldn't bet on the guy against a 3 man corporate security team and I'd bet against him if the enemy had 4 or 5 guys. I've seen combat monsters who could (and did) take out six sch six enemies while armed with a pistol.

-Frank

Like I said, Mr. Lucky took on a full team of named Prime Runners in a SRM game, and won. YMMV, of course, but I've had a lot of good luck (pun intended) with that character.

At any event, we also have the pornomancer. Frank was the one who pointed out that even with tons of karma, adepts, mages, and otaku won't reach the uber1337 status in anything resembling a normal campaign. And even then, you're only going to be better by a handful of dice. Hardly a significant improvement.

I just prefer to start with a bunch of my mooks throwing 10s in the appropriate firearm test and avoid that whole nasty Edge=Win! business in the first place.

And then there's my "lieutenants"; three agility, three skill, homeground quality, smart link and a specialization for even some of the lowliest goon squad captains? It could happen. Don't forget about short wide bursts or medium choke shotguns sapping the defense pool either. Edge generally works best when you have a really high pool reroll failures with in the first place, and that particular usage isn't even really tied to how many Edge dice you can throw, although it is nice to be able to do so as often as possible.

The pornomancer was like the climbing build, kind of a "how many dice can you get?" build, focusing on con/seduction. Other social skills have plenty of room for improvement: Etiquette: 2 and Negotiation: 3, no Leadership or Intimidation - but tons of dice pool modifiers. This character rolls about 26 dice defaulting, although using the optional rule capping successes to 2 x skill would give the character more incentive to raise those social skills. Other than that, the character can shoot, dodge, and notice things, but still, to me, there's a difference between playable/lacking glaring weaknesses, and being truly well-rounded. If I actually played the pornomancer (surprisingly, it actually is playable), I would find plenty of areas to improve.

Of course, I pointed out the fundamental flaw of the build in another thread:

I've mentioned this more than a few times, so I'll reiterate it again: Mr. Lucky's effectiveness is entirely contingent on how a game is gamemastered (meaning specialists that do not depend on Edge are not and hence are "better builds"). At my table, a NPC Mr. Lucky gunslinger died in the second combat turn of his first encounter against my PCs, and a PC Mr.Lucky became Mr. Not-So-Lucky (almost died twice on his first run) so quickly that to this day the player regrets the BPs misspent on maxing out Edge. YMMV indeed.

I firmly believe many apparent imbalances attributed to Mr. Lucky are down to the fact that many gamemasters wing applicable modifiers in combat (IMHO also unconsciously avoiding reducing dice pools to zero which feels inherently "wrong" to many) and they do not use Edge for NPCs as a PC would (IMHO this is the result of a "residual" association of Edge with SR3 Karma Pool when it combines functions of both SR3 Karma Pool and SR3 Combat Pool).

Note - this consideration is not directly related to such extreme effects as The Shot Heard Across the Barrens which are entirely possible and expected under the Long Shot mechanic (assuming the shooter is the Luckiest Man on Earth and the gamemaster didn't veto the character in his game).


Would you like to do a Combat Walk-Through as proof of concept?

I'm up for it, I'll use the Prime Runners as stated in that SRM module, and you use Mr.Lucky and whatever other PC was involved and you get to prove your point in front of everyone.

I'm also VERY curious about this, as we've never put any NPCs into an SRM that I would consider Prime Runners.

OK... there's a new type of NPC, from "the_dunner" himself. Non-contact, non-Grunt NPCs that are not considered to be Prime Runners. What I am curious is do these NPCs follow the Prime Runner rules with regards to Edge usage?

Several people have had a problem with this before, so I'm going to try to clarify, SR4 introduced three subcategories of NPCs to aid GMs in using them. These categories were meant as aids and GM crutches and are definitely not all encompasing - in fact p.272, SR4 states that the rules for Grunts, Prime Runners and Contacts are simply guidelines for the gamemaster.

The GM can throw out a homemade NPC with any stats he thinks are appropriate. NPCs do not have to conform to the categories of Contacts, Prime Runners, or Grunts - these subcategories were introduced to respectively to: provide easy reference/pre-stated NPCs, an easy way to build balanced Named Characters/opposition, and speed up combat resolution.

All NPCs use the same rules as PCs unless specifically stated otherwise (as with Group Edge and Professional Ratings for Grunts, and Hand of God for Prime Runners). ie. the Fixer contact has Edge 3 because he's meant to use it.

OK, I'll bite. If the 3 categories are not all encompassing, then what other kinds of RAW NPCs should there be? Or would you rather I started a new thread to discuss this? Consider that this is with respect to the SRMs. House ruling should be minimised in this case.

Someone made a ninja edit while I was making this post. Something about my liking to argue about semantics.

Another thread would be appropriate this one is to evoted to the Cain Challenge(though there isn't really much to discuss: Base 13, the go-gang leader in the Hubris and Humility SRM module strictly speaking isn't either a Grunt, a pregenerated Contact, or necessarily a Prime Runner - he's simply an NPC that may or may not have been built using the Prime Runner rules, which is perfectly okay because those rules are guidelines simply intended to balance NPCs and PCs relative strengths.)

Getting back to the subject at hand though.

I believe that what Cain is referring to when he says Prime Runners above are the Named NPCs in an SRM module - correctly so, since, Prime Runners are defined in SR4 as "(...) signature characters that appear over the course of an adventure(...)" and "(...)a prime runner is the equivalent of the evil mastermind, the mastermind’s chief henchman, or the femme fatale. Most prime runners oppose the characters as chief antagonists, but some may be neutral, helping or harming the PCs according to their own personal agenda" (which pretty much covers every role a named NPC usually fulfills).

Ninja is my middle name - editing to my satisfaction is one reason I take ages to edit SR drafts. I tend to reword things 4-5 times before I'm happy with them.

Started a thread on the_dunner's home ground.

Thanks for keeping this so civil, guys.

As far as the Mr. Lucky thing, personally the character is nowhere near my arbitrary standard of "well rounded". He's fairly specialized at one thing, but then the aforementioned "performance in an actual game with an X factor GM" thing comes in. As even Cain has said, YMwouldV when playing it. Add in the banking on good Edge rolls to save your bacon and I'd not want to play the character as presented, except maybe as an experiment.

Sure. I don't remember which module it was. It had the introduction of Irina, and the job' s first part was to intercept a team of runners and take their place at a meet. We chased them off, but we spread out to try and finish them off. Due to a lucky (go figure) perception test, I locate them on a street corner, arguing about what to do. Unfortunately, we don't have the time left to assemble the team to take them on. I order my van to drive casually, to speed up on a verbal command, and start a drive-by.

The opposition consists of a Street Sam, a Gunslinger Adept, a Face, and a Decker. I have no idea if these were an addition by the GM, or if they were part of the adventure; I haven't read it. At any event, I get a surprise action, and shoot the street sam full in the face. (Direct hit with a disgusting number of successes behind it, too much to soak even with Edge.) My second shot isn't nearly as cool, and only wounds the Gunslinger Adept. (Read: She uses Edge.) As a free action, the van starts to acellerate.

First pass. I win initiative, and unload on the Adept. Needless to say, I hit, but she spends more Edge to survive/reduce the damage. It now goes to her turn, which is an ouchie for me. She fires four times, using her ambidexterity to good effect. However, I'm behind good cover; and even though the GM penalizes me for dodging in confined quarters, I manage to escape with only two hit points taken. (He also got the rules wrong: he only allowed rerolls, instead of the post-roll addition of dice I wanted.) Some Edge was used, but the good luck I had was that the adept botched on her last shot, causing her to drop her gun. Well, maybe not so lucky, since I now had to face her full dice pool. The face's shot gets me for one hit point, taking me to a Moderate wound, and the decker is frantically trying to locate my wireless signal.

Second pass. My first shot only wounds the adept, but she's now out of Edge, and the second shot finishes her. The face hits me, but I manage to dodge/soak the shot. I honestly don't recall what the decker was doing next. At this point, the GM rules that the van has pulled too far away to make another shot, so I'll have to turn around for a second pass. While I'm doing that, the Face and Decker decide to run for it. The adept is still alive, but the sam went into serious overflow; they grab the Adept, trigger her Docwagon, and run. I'm not about to take on Docwagon, and by the time I turn around, they're effectively out of combat range.

So, there you have it. I don't know if the Street Sam used HoG or not, but I do know that they were using Edge normally. That's the province of a Prime Runner. Certainly they were built on as many BP's as Mr. Lucky! He took them on, and clearly won, even if he didn't turn them all into a fine red mist.

The adventure in question is SRM02-13 Take Out Service. The encounter you're referring to is on p.9. Beyond that, I'll refrain from further comment, save to say that I don't believe the GM handled the encounter appropriately.

By Combat Walk-Through I meant a rerun of the combat scene (to the description you provide) with me as Gamemaster.

You may have confirmed the gamemaster was using Edge for rerolls, but I have no idea if he was applying all the appropriate modifiers (to both sides), whether you had exceptionally good rolls and the NPCs had exceptionally bad ones, whether he considered using Edge to undermine your initiative (possibly not on the first pass, but most definitely the adept on the second pass), etc.

How much Edge did your character burn in just this encounter? (I'm thinking at least 2 points possibly 3 at my table).

In fact, a lot of the luck you quote has little to do with MrLucky at all and your description of the combat scene could have worked equally with the hard-core Street Sam on my team (Edge 3), and does nothing to prove that Mr Lucky's high Edge was in any way decisive or even particularly useful - when compared to a typical street sam.

So, how about a rerun?

Actually, regardless of whether we use Mr. Lucky or not, I'd appreciate the opportunity to read and/or help out with this (similar to the old Idiot's Guide to the Matrix we did, Synner). As we've learned in other threads, I'm one of those GMs who seem to have a problem assigning modifiers in combat. The big one is that I learned good cover is -4 and not -2, but that was more a misunderstanding that an improper application. Regardless, I'd like to see your take on combat, Synner, to see where this goes.

Am I misunderstanding the surprise rules, or is your GM? I thought your surprise action was the first pass, and the surprise test determines who is able to take actions against whom.
Assuming you dominated surprise (not unsurprising, you certainly get the +6 ambusher bonus, although depending on perception/other factors they might've been able to get the +3 aware-of-ambush bonus, but let's assume they didn't) then in that first pass you're able to act against them normally, and they can't act against you. Then in the second pass everyone can act normally, right?

Which, if I'm correct about surprise, leads me to another question. If someone is surprised and therefore cannot take actions against their attacker, is it still okay for them to delay their action until pass 2 and take it then? I would think not, but I could see it going either way. If they could, it would go a long way towards reigning in the awesome power of the surprise action, if that were a desirable goal.

One more, then I'm off to work.

I have no idea if he was applying penalties correctly either, but I do know that I had a few penalties I was unfamiliar with. My rolls were mostly unexceptional, minus the ones I mentioned. As for Edge and the Adept, assuming that he was using the one out of the BBB, she only has an Edge of 4 and used all of them to dodge/soak. I certainly didn't finish her until she was out of Edge.

Actually, it proves the point that Mr. Lucky is more than a viable character, he's a dominating force. People whinge that an Edge of 8 is no match for smart tactics, and they're right; but that doesn't hold a candle to smart tactics *with* an Edge of 8. You're arguing the wrong point for this thread-- Mr. Lucky is proof of principle that you can have a character who dominates in one area (pistol combat) and is well-rounded enough in other areas, such that karmic advancement isn't a significant help. Edge as the game-breaker belongs in another thread.

But as I said several times before, he does not, in fact, dominate in pistol combat, he dominated in pistol shooting, he's also quite apt at getting shot by pistols...
You seem to be conveniently ignoring this part, which, as I have said before, I have said before...
Take Unreal, I am very VERY good at sniping, I can hit any pixel within 1 second...
I suck however at not getting shot...
Ergo, I have never been anywhere near the top in any Unreal game I have played...
Do you see my point?