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BlackHat
Yeah, the model they chose for metatypes makes sense when you're talking about elves, trolls, and orcs who are pretty much paying for better stats when they chose their metatype - but for any metatypes with stats in the range of human average (including about half of the ones in this book), you're paying for the special abilities and whatnot, not attributes.

For AIs in particular, you're paying for not having to pay for physical stats. (averages of 3 in 4 stats would run you 80 of those 110 points). In this karma system, that is completely overlooked.
Ears
Yeah I finally get around to posting Clamps stats for public consumption:

[ Spoiler ]


He was a Streetdoc and just recently switched to 'running. So his terrible low combat skills are a design feature. Also he won't get any Cyberware for personal reasons. Comments?


As for alternative build systems I have no problem with any other - as long as someone explains the new one. I only have the BBB - but from what has been written so far I don't see any compelling - at least for all of us, some builds will be better with another system, some worse - reason to switch.
crizh
Have made a decision about city yet?

I've been looking at the new qualities and lifestyle rules in RC and had some great ideas on changing up the TM character but I need to know where we'll be running to start a write-up.
DWC
QUOTE (Ears @ Aug 8 2008, 04:51 PM) *
Yeah I finally get around to posting Clamps stats for public consumption:

[ Spoiler ]


He was a Streetdoc and just recently switched to 'running. So his terrible low combat skills are a design feature. Also he won't get any Cyberware for personal reasons. Comments?


I didn't see anything for him to use to interface with the grenade launcher's smartlink. Since he's anti-cyber, a pair of retro Elvis-style sunglasses with built in low light, flare comp, image link, and smartgun link might be prudent. Beyond that, neat.
Oenone
@Ears I would suggest something in the way of gas grenades for Clamps. Because if your only weapon is going to reduce people to a coating of spam we'll draw a lot of attention really quickly! Also you don't want to be using too many high explosives inside buildings or else they might collapse. wink.gif

Personally my launcher of choice would be the pistol sized one from Arsenal. Which I think still uses the heavy weapons skill but is considerably less obvious. (Although I guess if you don't have the book it limits your options somewhat).

Oh and you might want to lower the strength in favor of more agility. As it will help your shooting and fits with a background in medicine more (while agility isn't often used for medical skills it's reasonable to assume medics have high scores for fine surgery etc).
cndblank
Nacroject Pistol and or a Taser are also good weapons.

They are both legal and quiet.
Ears
Thanks for the comments.

QUOTE (DWC @ Aug 8 2008, 10:20 PM) *
I didn't see anything for him to use to interface with the grenade launcher's smartlink. Since he's anti-cyber, a pair of retro Elvis-style sunglasses with built in low light, flare comp, image link, and smartgun link might be prudent. Beyond that, neat.


Yeah forgot to write up a pair of smartlinked goggles and thinking of that, ar glasses and gloves too.
Selecting gear is always my weak spot. I tend to loose interest while collecting a lot of individual low cost items and usually just create groups of 5k, round the cost of items up and allocate one BP for really obvious stuff i forgot to list for good measure.

QUOTE (Oenone @ Aug 8 2008, 10:34 PM) *
@Ears I would suggest something in the way of gas grenades for Clamps. Because if your only weapon is going to reduce people to a coating of spam we'll draw a lot of attention really quickly!


Yeah, my hatred for gear again. Thought of it, flipped the page, gone. I'll switch some real grenades for J.E.Friendly ones. But not all of them. This dwarf wants some nice explosions.

QUOTE (Oenone @ Aug 8 2008, 10:34 PM) *
Personally my launcher of choice would be the pistol sized one from Arsenal. Which I think still uses the heavy weapons skill but is considerably less obvious. (Although I guess if you don't have the book it limits your options somewhat).


Less obvious? On a dude looking like a kid on 'roids who couldn't hide a hideout from a blind man? Besides small people need big guns.
But if I find the free cash for another MGL-12 I'll just buy a -6 (found it in the 3rd edition arsenal) for it and burn the small change.
Hmm, if I'll go and do the math on gear properly anyway I might just find enough for an Ingram White Knight too. And yeah I'll add a clip of gel. grinbig.gif

QUOTE (Oenone @ Aug 8 2008, 10:34 PM) *
Oh and you might want to lower the strength in favor of more agility. As it will help your shooting and fits with a background in medicine more (while agility isn't often used for medical skills it's reasonable to assume medics have high scores for fine surgery etc).


Actually I thought long about dropping strength by two points and moving them into agility and reaction respectively but:
- As soon as I had dwarven doc written down I envisioned ER with a tiny guy in a coat in it, holding one arm of a thrashing patient perfectly still so a scared nurse almost twice his size could apply a sedative.
- If I remember the threads about Arsenal here correctly strength 9 nets me a point of recoil compensation which is twice as good with heavy weapons.
- Insane strength means I don't have to buy athletics and still be good at three out of four skills in the group. And my experience is that every 'runner sooner or later needs to run, climb and swim. Fast. Double so if they have short legs.
Oenone
6 Strength also gives the same bonus as 9 does if they're talking about the rules in Arsenal. wink.gif

The ArmTech MGL-6 (which is the pistol one) costs 1500 nuyen-ish. From what I remember of the book anyway...

I'd been idly thinking of giving one to my Technomancer to make up for her poor combat skills, but decided perhaps subtle was more her style (and to be honest my hackers always tend towards completely dumb weapons with as little to hack as possible).

- Edit

I now have this mental image of a Dwarf carrying so many heavy weapons on his back that he can't even fit through doors anymore...
DWC
QUOTE (crizh @ Aug 8 2008, 05:12 PM) *
Have made a decision about city yet?

I've been looking at the new qualities and lifestyle rules in RC and had some great ideas on changing up the TM character but I need to know where we'll be running to start a write-up.


Doesn't look like it. The votes seem to be split between Seattle and Hong Kong, but a lot of folks haven't weighed in yet.
BlackHat
I wrote some of Malloc.I's lifestyle stuff into Tokyo, but that was mostly just to be different. I'd be happy to either move his Network Hub to Seattle (or anywhere else) or let him telecommute - after all, Seattle is just a commcall away.
Intro
QUOTE (DWC @ Aug 8 2008, 07:24 PM) *
Doesn't look like it. The votes seem to be split between Seattle and Hong Kong, but a lot of folks haven't weighed in yet.

I don't really have a preference. My guy's roots definitely aren't in any of the places, so whatever works for everyone else.
Ears
QUOTE (Oenone @ Aug 8 2008, 11:11 PM) *
6 Strength also gives the same bonus as 9 does if they're talking about the rules in Arsenal. wink.gif


Yeah, just searched it up. I guess I won't change him anyway and hope for enough cash and downtime soon to get him upgrades to muscle augmentation and toner. I've already gotten used to my little muscle-man.

Bah after doing proper calculations I found I was a bit short on cash to arm him up fully. Guess what, air spirits no longer like him, and bamm another grenade launcher, a machinegun, some skills and contacts materialized.
But that's it. I'll stop changing him. wink.gif

[ Spoiler ]
cndblank
I guess the simple thing to do on the Karma Character Creation issue, is let people do it if they want and give the BP people an extra 15 or 20 karma to spend.

That way you are only doing it if you want.
BlackHat
ô.o

No, like I said before, I think that's exactly not the thing to do.

Gremish will mention if he/she/it wants us to have any karma at all - and if he likes the karma creation rules.
BlackHat
That probably sounded harsher than it was intended. wink.gif What I meant was that a few of us have raised the opinion that mixing and matching the character creation system would be worse than picking either one or the other. I apologize if it sounded rude.
cndblank
Null Sheen
Intro
So here's the stats for Abe, wilderness adept.

[ Spoiler ]

I've made him up to survive on a very low tech base, no smartlink, no real need for a lot of electronic gear. He tends to use his commlink the way people today use smartphones, not as the all-encompassing life organizer that it is for most people in 2070. (Though he does have assorted sensors in case people run a tacsoft). Only uses AR when he actually needs it for something, otherwise keeps the glasses in a pocket. Makes him slightly less optimal as a build and all, but I like the concept.

*Edit: Waffling.
Glyph
I am fine with either Hong Kong or Seattle. Dancer was originally a character who was born in Seattle, and went to L.A. for a fresh start, so it is easy to either have her simply stay there, or be making her fresh start in Hong Kong, instead.
crizh
OK, I've gone as far as I can here without GM feedback.

Need to know city and chargen method. For the record I'd love to give karmagen a shot but I'm happy with either.

Character wise I'm leaning towards TM, even thought that's the one archetype penalized by karmagen, but will go with summoner if there is a consensus that would be better.

@Oenone. Yes Shield is way, way better than Armour. Also, did you switch out Decompiling with Registering deliberately?
cndblank
I'll hold off my final spell selection until I know if I'm going to be the only one.

I'll also go full magician so we can have astral scouting.
Glyph
I'm waiting for a ruling on the monowhip thing (RAW rules or is parrying disallowed) before I post Dancer.

I have started working on the stats for her as an unarmed adept, just in case. Specializing in unarmed is a lot pricier, though, so she will pretty much lose her face abilities - she just be someone who looks nice (cosmetic biomods) and can dance. Right now we have a face and two backup faces already, so it won't be a big loss to the group if it comes to that.

I am also going to work on my eco-activist mage and gothy black mage ideas, too, in case another mage would be better for the group.
Oenone
QUOTE (crizh @ Aug 9 2008, 06:54 PM) *
OK, I've gone as far as I can here without GM feedback.

Need to know city and chargen method. For the record I'd love to give karmagen a shot but I'm happy with either.

Character wise I'm leaning towards TM, even thought that's the one archetype penalized by karmagen, but will go with summoner if there is a consensus that would be better.

@Oenone. Yes Shield is way, way better than Armour. Also, did you switch out Decompiling with Registering deliberately?



Actually they still turn out better if you're playing a human. Weaver totals in at 6 Res and complex forms at 6 in Karma gen. As opposed to 5 and 5's in BP.

Yeah I figured I could just kill any sprites which go rogue in cybercombat? As none of my sprites can actually erm attack back..... So being able to register then seemed like a better deal unless I'm mistaken?

(If you would advise against that I might switch back, as I suspect you have superior TM knowledge!)

Edited. Here is how Weaver works out under Karma Gen. The gear is the same under this system so I've left it out.
Compare the two and you'll see just how much better the Karma system ends up as.
[ Spoiler ]
crizh
Thing is, everybody is better off using karmagen, so it becomes possible to play a rounded TM.

However, the one thing that is more expensive to buy with karma than BP's is Complex Forms. You're example spends 11 BP's each for CF's @ 6...

TM's using karma are much better than TM's using BP's but significantly worse than anyone else using karma.


As to registering, bear in mind that it is twice as hard as compiling so it's not the sort of thing you can dabble in. In that karma build you would be better off keeping CF's @ 5 and using the extra karma to buy a proper Registering skill.










DWC
Ok. Aside from Blackhat's AI being installed in Tokyo (but capable of working anywhere there's matrix access), it looks like votes that have come in are split between "Fine with anything" and "Seattle or Hong Kong." Based on that, I'm proposing that we narrow the field to Hong Kong or Seattle, and everyone pick which one they'd like to see. This shouldn't have to dictate who's from where, but the sooner we can nail this down to one place, the sooner several folks can finalize characters.

I'll start the ball rolling by voting for Hong Kong.
cndblank
Seattle
Glyph
Seattle.
Scope_47
Seattle
Oenone
Seattle.
Oenone
QUOTE (crizh @ Aug 10 2008, 03:54 AM) *
As to registering, bear in mind that it is twice as hard as compiling so it's not the sort of thing you can dabble in. In that karma build you would be better off keeping CF's @ 5 and using the extra karma to buy a proper Registering skill.


Good point. I've done a little re-write of the Karma build (lowering the CF's and raising the Registering skill and all the skill groups with the extra points) and will drop Registering from the BP build entirely.

Not much point trying to register a sprite if I'm throwing a 6 DP up against a DP of 10....
Glyph
I have both versions of Dancer done, as well as Viper, the gothy black magician. The eco-activist Celtic druid, I only have the rough stats (everything but gear) and a general idea of his personality so far. I'll wait on Dancer for now, but here is Viper's sheet:

[ Spoiler ]
crizh
@Glyph. Dang, that's a lot of background. Wouldn't want to get in a fight with her though. How many dice does she roll for combat spells? Holy hannah, nasty.....
cndblank
Nice.

Well now I can work on my spells.
cndblank
Are optical Night time vision enhancements available?
cndblank
Considering the level of hacking talent on the team...

Does the rest of the team need to spend cred on programs?

Perhaps we can all put in some cred and let the hacking talent create a library of software?

I realize we might not even be a team yet, but I thought we should ask the question now while we are in character creation.

I guess that leads to the question, do we have any shared gear?
DWC
QUOTE (cndblank @ Aug 10 2008, 09:23 PM) *
Are optical Night time vision enhancements available?


Other than a sustained spells and racial abilities, I don't think there are any non-implanted low light vision options. The only standard visual sensory system that has a listed optical option is vision magnification.
cndblank
Here are a tentative list of spells for EZ. I'm trying to complement Viper's.

Mentor Spirit is Wise Warrior (+2 Combat and +2 Detection)

Detect Explosives, Extnd.
Mind Probe
Analyze Device
Detect Life, Extnd.
Combat Sense
Stunball
Lightning Bolt
Silence
Hot Potato
Physical Mask
Trid Phantasm
Shapechange

Comments and suggestions?

We missing anything?
DWC
QUOTE (cndblank @ Aug 10 2008, 11:42 PM) *
Here are a tentative list of spells for EZ.

Detect Explosives, Extnd.
Mind Probe
Analyze Device
Detect Life, Extnd.
Combat Sense
Stunball
Lightning Bolt
Silence
Hot Potato
Physical Mask
Trid Phantasm
Shapechange

Comments and suggestions?


Can't hurt to grab Heal. It's less of an issue with a full blown team doctor, but still not a bad thing to have available.
cndblank
QUOTE (DWC @ Aug 10 2008, 10:41 PM) *
Other than a sustained spells and racial abilities, I don't think there are any non-implanted low light vision options. The only standard visual sensory system that has a listed optical option is vision magnification.



That is what I thought. Just making sure I wasn't missing something.
cndblank
QUOTE (DWC @ Aug 10 2008, 10:48 PM) *
Can't hurt to grab Heal. It's less of an issue with a full blown team doctor, but still not a bad thing to have available.



I agree, but Viper has that on her list.

Spells=
Flamethrower
Stunball
Stunbolt
Heal
Increase Reflexes
Improved Invisibility
Control Thoughts
Fashion
Levitate
Makeover
Sterilize


On the Shapechange, I don't fancy running around with no armor (or cloths for that matter), but it is just so useful a spell to get in to and out of places.

The Trid Illusion should cover most cases and he can do a pretty strong one several times (force 4 (so all electronic devices will be fooled) has a 5 stun drain and he has 15 dice to resist the drain)
Glyph
Yeah, I think I'll just forget about Dancer and play Viper for this one. Viper's biggest downside was having such strong ties to Seattle, but it looks like we'll probably be starting there, so it isn't a downside any longer.

As far as programs, Viper doesn't really need any help yet - Force: 3 programs are pretty cheap.

The last word on char-gen by Gremish was 400 BP, but if he does allow Karma char-gen, then some of us may need help changing our characters over to it. I don't plan on getting Runner's Companion until it comes out as a physical book.
crizh
QUOTE (cndblank @ Aug 11 2008, 04:40 AM) *
Considering the level of hacking talent on the team...

Does the rest of the team need to spend cred on programs?

Perhaps we can all put in some cred and let the hacking talent create a library of software?

I realize we might not even be a team yet, but I thought we should ask the question now while we are in character creation.

I guess that leads to the question, do we have any shared gear?


Perhaps we could also informally decide on Group contacts. For example, Warezhouse24 is going to be a popular Virtual Contact but there is no need for 3 characters to pay for it. If one of us spends the 14+ BP's (or 28+ Karma) for it the others could take other more useful contacts instead of duplicating effort.

If we all put in some of our starting cash as a kitty then the hackers can purchase a bunch of cracked software in game and we can configure the team network after we start.

Everyone should buy some decent hardware and some low rating basic programs and we'll figure the rest out as we go.
BlackHat
I don't expect that the TMs (Are there 1 or 2) will be interested in buying many programs. Malloc.I has some programs in his equipment, that he will buy cracked (so they'll degrade, but he could share them) and would be happy to set them up on otehr people's commlinks. Do we have anotehr hacker?

Extra money would allow the ratigns to go higher, or for some programs that didn't make his list (the team could particularly chip in for a tacsoft).

Again, Gremish should probably weigh in on if he wants to allow pooled money, or not (and hopefully he weighs in on some of these issues today, as we have not heard from him since Thursday) - but some basic IC and firewalls can be handled by Malloc.I regardless of whetehr or not anyone chips in.
DWC
I'm fine either way. I found the cash to get Vice a cracked out custom OS for his commlink, along with some sensor software and a fairly basic agent, but less cash spent on software means more cash for guns, ammo, and (if I can fit it in without killing him) cyberware.
crizh
QUOTE (BlackHat @ Aug 11 2008, 12:07 PM) *
I don't expect that the TMs (Are there 1 or 2) will be interested in buying many programs.


I think there are going to be two and on the contrary I think I will be purchasing lots and lots of software to make up for all the complex forms I cannot afford to buy with BP's.

Sprites are great and all but they do have limitations, not least of which is the maximum number that you can have bound at any one time and the restricted CF sets that they have.

Agents/IC have no such restrictions so make a useful additional feather in ones cap so to speak.

On a side note, I was thinking of taking Resident AI as a disadvantage on my Lifestyle and wondered if we might somehow manage to make you that irascible squatter.....

Are you still planning on buying Warezhouse24 as a contact because if you don't then I will and we can just prepare a shopping list and I'll supply it.

Modified background to follow shortly.
Gremish
I apologize for not posting the last few days, I was gone on a camping trip all weekend. I will be reading and replying to everything throughout the work day today!

Thanks!
BlackHat
QUOTE (crizh @ Aug 11 2008, 09:13 AM) *
I think there are going to be two and on the contrary I think I will be purchasing lots and lots of software to make up for all the complex forms I cannot afford to buy with BP's.

That sounds good. I think that there will be two problems. One, being that TMs have their own versions of cracking and electronics skill groups - so unless you buy those skills twice, when you go to use those programs, you will have no ranks in the skill to use them. Also, I think there are a lot of programs that you would find useful, but your TM persona, and the persona on your commlink (who has the programs) are seperate. You couldn't, for example, hack your way into a node as a TM, and then use your disarm program on your commlink to disarm a databomb you found there. You would have to re-hack in with the commlink to do so (which would be a lot easier if you set it up with a legitimate account from the inside).

Maybe you're already aware of these limitations, but I thought I would bring them up in case you hadn't thought of it.

QUOTE (crizh @ Aug 11 2008, 09:13 AM) *
Sprites are great and all but they do have limitations, not least of which is the maximum number that you can have bound at any one time and the restricted CF sets that they have.

Agents/IC have no such restrictions so make a useful additional feather in ones cap so to speak.

No arguments here. Loading an agent with the progrmas you need, and having it follow you around would probably work better than trying to hack in with your commlink and your biological node simultaniously.


QUOTE (crizh @ Aug 11 2008, 09:13 AM) *
On a side note, I was thinking of taking Resident AI as a disadvantage on my Lifestyle and wondered if we might somehow manage to make you that irascible squatter.....

Up to Gremish if he'd be okay with that. It might not be considered as much of a disadvantage if it was a PC AI (although, I would happily make it one, if that helps). The other thing would be that it would mean scrapping my lifestyle, and latching into yours, because an AI can only have one home node.

A better fit might just be to use the roommate rules, and have the AI be a roommate in your home. Then, rent becomes cheaper for you (as though you had taken a negative lifestyle quality), and the AI doesn't have to be a disadvantage to you, necessarily.

The lifestyle he is set up with now give him a high-end node to reside in, and good physical security to protect his data. I might be willing to relocate him, but if he's squatting in a shack underneath a highway overpass, his home node isn't going to be very well protected.

QUOTE (crizh @ Aug 11 2008, 09:13 AM) *
Are you still planning on buying Warezhouse24 as a contact because if you don't then I will and we can just prepare a shopping list and I'll supply it.

Modified background to follow shortly.

I was planning on it - as it would be nice to have an outlet for purchasing new pirated programs, or cracked patches. Depending on how Gremish rules the virtual contacts work, though, I might have enough points to go with a different contact I wanted, which was a pervasive spyware network - focused more on backdoors, worms, etc than pirating or writing software. I don't have neough points for both, though.

Speaking of my AI, I've been meaning to put his background down to text. I have a pretty good idea of what I want him and his everyday life to be like, but I need to explain that, or nobody else will know. biggrin.gif I promise to get that done soon. I've sort of been slacking until some of the other details about character creation were finalized - but I don't really see why that should stop me.
BlackHat
QUOTE (Gremish @ Aug 11 2008, 09:34 AM) *
I apologize for not posting the last few days, I was gone on a camping trip all weekend. I will be reading and replying to everything throughout the work day today!


No problem. I appreciate the head's up. Sorry we let about 4 pages of posts sneak up on you. wink.gif
DWC
@Gremish: How do you want to handle adding minor modifications (like spoof chips) to vehicles leased per the Lifestyle rules in RC?

Edit: Nevermind. Think I'd rather stick with what I did by buying a car, then have something random like a Range Rover as a leased vehicle for legitimate driving around.
Oenone
My virtual contact is an online technomancer group, rather than something like Warezhouse24 (and thus it requires GM approval). Which should be different enough in function/uses to make it worth the points. (For example I would hope they could help find tutors for complex forms etc)

Program wise the only ones I've taken are basically decoy programs to make the commlink look used. Oh and in theory if you can use the command complex on a device you have admin access for then I'll be able to use encrypt on things via my commlink. It wouldn't be awesome, but it'd be better than nothing.

Can anyone think of any flaws with the party set up at the minute? We have (At least I think we have) two mages covering a mix of combat and utility spells, an AI hacker, a TM hacker and I think Granny was a TM Rigger?, Wilderness Adept, cybered face and a driver / simsense starlet.

We do seem to be lacking a dedicated muscle character, the question is do we need one with all the combat spells and the three characters with decent IP's. If Crizh does go rigging it'll mean some additional drone support too, which generally work well as combat muscle.
cndblank
I guess we are golden as long as we have a couple of people who are good at intimiation, inflitration, athletics, and hand to hand combat.

I will miss having someone that could carry the two mages around at a full run.
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