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Coldhand Jake
QUOTE (ElFenrir @ Oct 23 2008, 03:13 PM) *
Ahh, gotcha. Yeah, I have to read on the Echoes and Resonance Trodes a bit. Wait a minute...by the sound of that the blasted Complex Form itself has the ability of Critical Strike and Killing Hands, or else I can't figure out how you smack someone upside the head with Resonance Trodes and inject an IC into their brain. I need to dig into Unwired more.

Heh, posted just as I edited my dood. I think he's more prime now.


She does a nice blade-hand strike, doing as much damage as a Panther Cannon to your body, then, as the contact is made, she instantly assaults your mind with the complex form as well. She does this by running Black Hammer as a complex form, her own meatware as a commlink with hot sim, and her contact with your body as a set of trodes. Swat, splat, thank you twat. She's "The One". The Bitchy One.
ElFenrir
That could be nasty vs. a plain old hacker who might not be as well armored. But Hackers, then again, have the mind stuff to protect. It's sort of a double-edged sword; hackers might lack the damage resilience and combat skills vs. the regular attack, but their minds are much better to take the other. Our combat monkies have enough dodge, armor, and soak dice to eat an attack from an old SR3 Panther Cannon(If not reverse it...sheesh, Basher's running 40 dice on melee turnaround!) but the mind-thing is the weakness to them; even if converting it to stun if not outright soaking it isn't that hard, I have a feeling even a little contact causes black IC damage.

Solution: Assault with magic. biggrin.gif Or just all three at once.

As for the toxic shaman and the mage...yeah, I'm glad we have a couple good mages on our team. Again, I can't shake it that those are the scariest somehow.

[Which makes me think about just how powered SR4 people can get. I mean, nowadays when I hear ''damage of a panther cannon unarmed'', I just think ''Ah, I made a little old Strength 2 man who was an adept with that and 400 BP under standard rules.'' Which...scares me how easy it is to get these days. It's almost like if you AREN'T doing Panther Cannon damage minimum unarmed, it's like ''Get with the times, man! Shotgun Unarmed damage is so last year! We got guys hitting for Thor Shots these days! grinbig.gif ]
Coldhand Jake
I'll tell you how it went the first time.

Yokozuna, the troll cybertank, rode out to investigate some defaced gang tags...and got plugged by the team sniper and the techno, putting machine sprites into the guidance systems of mini-missiles, and siccing them on him. This, of course, alerted Judas to the troll's death, and he issued a threat through Denver's dataweb...

Once he was riled, basically, the whole team sat around in a Hardee's, and the vouduni astral projected, leading an army of bound spirits against the outer defenses. Taking out the outer gun emplacements of this hardened compound, and bashing against the Olympian-aspected background count.

Then Mob Mind began being abused. Guardian spirits (Charon) and bound fire spirits (Greater Cyclops) were turned against Hekate, the greek neopagan, being retasked and sent in to attack her. This was done repeatedly until she dismissed her spirits to get them off the battlefield, and projected out to deal with the assault...and he Mob Minded her to return to her body, and murder Snowman in his plugseat. She failed the Willpower, not surprisingly, and Death Touched the guy at maximum force, then opened herself to the Drain, dying with him.

At the same time, the techno (Wasabi) went full VR, and rode a Kanmushi drone into the base's Signal overlap, and was assaulted by Belladonna, and he wasted her. Belladonna eventually reformed, and Jenna and Mange escaped...but Snowman was the target, so a 50% killrate with no PC losses was not bad.
ElFenrir
Oh, wow. So even though these guys are like, super; some really good ''super'' runners themselves can plan good stuff. That was a clever way of taking out the troll.

Death Palm=Death Touch Spell, I'm guessing? Overcast at an insane Force with insta-death drain if failed, it also looked like.

I wonder once our team is ''assembled'', what kind of tactics they would have? We do seem to have a team of well-rounded specialists so far.
pbangarth
Since the PCs have been around a long time, and successful, we would have to play them as cooperative, creative, implacable and ultra-cool.

Meaning we would have to step up our game a notch or two! spin.gif

Peter
ElFenrir
Yeah, once everyone's got their characters together, we can think of how this team got together, just for some flavor or whatnot. If this thing is getting used for a story/con thing of sorts, it might be cool to find out how an orc tough thrash-metal listening dood with pistols, machineguns and a super-duper mean right hook, a New Orleans elf voodoo Cuban cigar smoking man who can by the look of things do very nasty things with magic, a Pimpass gunbunny with a Super Pimp ride, a manga-demon giant elf who can kick holes in skulls, tanks, or sneak around while kicking said holes, a Hawaiian Dwarf Eastern Dragon Drake Mage who seems to be very rich, a relatively normal at first glance Technomancer in this whole menagerie, and soon to be a Face, Rigger, and an ''Implacable Invincible Man-Tank'' actually DID get together.

Well, can't say we aren't balanced. smile.gif
pbangarth
QUOTE (ElFenrir @ Oct 23 2008, 04:27 PM) *
... it might be cool to find out how ... actually DID get together.

Well, can't say we aren't balanced. smile.gif


Kick-hoop, twisted-sense-of-humour fixers.

Peter
Bobson
QUOTE (ElFenrir @ Oct 23 2008, 01:31 PM) *
Magic: 6
...
Adept Powers(8 Power Points-6 from magic and 2 from initation)


How do you get 8 power points, with a magic rating of 6? I don't think initiation gives any PP directly... if it does, I'm going to have to go spend more grinbig.gif
Bobson
QUOTE (Coldhand Jake @ Oct 23 2008, 06:02 PM) *
She does a nice blade-hand strike, doing as much damage as a Panther Cannon to your body, then, as the contact is made, she instantly assaults your mind with the complex form as well. She does this by running Black Hammer as a complex form, her own meatware as a commlink with hot sim, and her contact with your body as a set of trodes. Swat, splat, thank you twat. She's "The One". The Bitchy One.

I think that's a call for me to post the troll tank. wink.gif Panther cannons tickle.

I will note that flavor is not my strong suit. I love crunching, but I'm not great at backstory. So my characters tend to be more of "this is what he is now" instead of "this is how he got there", and also kindof light on contacts and/or knowledge skills. Since I want to move on to the rigger already, this one's light on all three. Anyone else is free to make suggestions for breathing life into the statistics, or they could be left available as a "Customize the character's interests" bit in the final adventure. I'm also not quite happy with his name, but that's what popped into my head, after his theme did so.

Some notes:
  • He needs one more minor negative quality, or some economy somewhere else, to have enough BP left over to actually be able to buy contacts. (I'm actually 7 BP in the red right now)
  • I assumed that essence loss acted as a negative modifer to Magic, rather than an actual reduction, since that's what the spreadsheet does. If standard assumption is that it reduces then the cost to improve is calculated, let me know and I'll go spend those extra karma points
  • I'm not entirely sure "Shields" is a valid category for Adept's Item Attunement, and I haven't yet spent the Karma to bind the shield. But if it works the way I'd assume it does, that'd be an extra 2 armor dice (not armor rating) that is not included anywhere below
  • I didn't buy a lifestyle or any misc gear, but I did dedicate 12,550 nuyen towards all that. Probably not enough to secure a decent lifestyle along with everything else, but not bad.



The basics:

[ Spoiler ]


The Numbers:

[ Spoiler ]


The Magic:

[ Spoiler ]


The Gear:

[ Spoiler ]


Damage:

Unarmed: 7P (9P in armor), 1 reach (5 dice)
Monofilament Sword (foci): 7P (9P in armor), 2 reach (12 dice)


Naked Armor (Orthoskin, enhanced dermal plating, mystic armor): 14/14

Armor when suited up (above + armor, helmet, and shield): 39/35 (-1 for knockdown tests)

Dice to resist damage: 17 + Armor, ignore one point of damage

Dice to resist spells: (11 or 13) + resistance stat.



So, really tough. A 10P/-5AP weapon doesn't really phase him (52 dice to resist 10+hits damage, on average it'll take 3 net hits to even scratch him). When he spends a point of Edge to reroll all failed damage resistance dice, he practically gurantees that he won't get hurt. I could have made him tougher (SWAT gear + full PPP + full body armor has more armor ratings), but this is what fit the concept.

As far as style goes, he imagines himself to be a knight in the tradition of medieval England (at least, as popularly conceptualized). Hence the sword and shield, "plate" armor, latin chanting, etc. Bear's Berserk disadvantage serves as somewhat equivalent to a code of chivalry (at least as far as battle is concerned). He leaves the literature behind in an attempt to educate others (by preference Mallory, but anything up to and including Shakespeare qualifies). Feel free to rewrite any of this last paragraph nyahnyah.gif
pbangarth
QUOTE (Bobson @ Oct 24 2008, 10:50 AM) *
How do you get 8 power points, with a magic rating of 6? I don't think initiation gives any PP directly... if it does, I'm going to have to go spend more grinbig.gif


There is an optional rule somewhere, though I can't find it at the moment, that allows adepts to acquire a PP instead of a Metamagic Technique at Initiation.

There is also an optional rule that allows the purchase of Metamagic Techniques without Initiation.

Speaking of optional rules, I avoided them, indoctrinated as I am by the stricture against them in SRM. Are optional rules available here? Not that I am going to bother changing anything, but just to know.

Peter
ElFenrir
Yeah, wasn't it in...Street Magic? I have to look again. I simply used it because I noticed Glyph used it without a problem, and figured it was an OK. But I have a feeling it's there since Adepts don't have a hell of a lot of metamagics they can aquire and actually do something with.

But nice tank. Not overly offensive(though with his sword he does very well...actually, his unarmed damage would be 8P, since you round up for that-his sword would grant him an extra reach and AP which is nice, however), but enough that he can lay down some punishment if necessary; making him enough of a threat that they just don't want to ''leave him alone, he can't hurt us.'' But moreso, TAKE the punishment. Wow, that's a lot of resistance dice. I mean, you'd need one of those missiles from Arsenal to even have a chance of scratching him physically; one edge point spend for rerolls can almost assure him just not even taking stun(and remember a weapon has to do OVER the armor to do more than stun; an Ares Predator vs. and Armor Jacket needs to have at least 3 net hits to do physical, for example...so for a panther cannon to actually do more than stun to him...it needs to have it's damage boosted to over his armor. Stun can take you out of a fight just as well, but of course, at least you have a shot of getting back from that.


And a nice touch with the Signature literature. grinbig.gif
Glyph
One of the optional rules added to Street Magic in the errata (so it won't be in most people's books yet) gives adepts the option to get a Power Point instead of a metamagical technique when they initiate. I asked about it in my first post, on page one, and used it after it got greenlighted.

@Bobson: Your character has shielding - giving him a shielding focus would be a much better bargain for him, because it adds its dice to all counterspelling. For the cost of the two Force: 2 counterspelling foci, you could get a Force: 4 shielding focus, or get a Force: 2 shielding focus to get the same +2 to counterspelling but save 4 Build Points.
Bobson
QUOTE (ElFenrir @ Oct 24 2008, 06:28 PM) *
But nice tank. Not overly offensive(though with his sword he does very well...actually, his unarmed damage would be 8P, since you round up for that-his sword would grant him an extra reach and AP which is nice, however), but enough that he can lay down some punishment if necessary; making him enough of a threat that they just don't want to ''leave him alone, he can't hurt us.''
Indeed. He certainly doesn't even compare to a 400bp physad I built for a one-shot that had something like 16 or 18 unarmed DV, but he's good enough to keep anyone who isn't him busy... and since the sword's also a weapon focus, he can whack on spirits and such too. Maybe I should give him astral perception so he can beat on things on the astral plane as well...

QUOTE
But moreso, TAKE the punishment. Wow, that's a lot of resistance dice. I mean, you'd need one of those missiles from Arsenal to even have a chance of scratching him physically; one edge point spend for rerolls can almost assure him just not even taking stun(and remember a weapon has to do OVER the armor to do more than stun; an Ares Predator vs. and Armor Jacket needs to have at least 3 net hits to do physical, for example...so for a panther cannon to actually do more than stun to him...it needs to have it's damage boosted to over his armor. Stun can take you out of a fight just as well, but of course, at least you have a shot of getting back from that.
True, it can, and he certainly can take less stun damage than physical damage. But a pain editor will take care of that. (I just managed to find that again. I remembered it, but I was thinking it was a drug, not more bioware ork.gif )


QUOTE
And a nice touch with the Signature literature. grinbig.gif
I admit that that wasn't my idea, but when it was suggested to me, I went "That's perfect". wink.gif

QUOTE (Glyph @ Oct 24 2008, 11:47 PM) *
One of the optional rules added to Street Magic in the errata (so it won't be in most people's books yet) gives adepts the option to get a Power Point instead of a metamagical technique when they initiate. I asked about it in my first post, on page one, and used it after it got greenlighted.
Good idea. That might be a better idea than Attunement (Item)... After all, I didn't include the karma cost or the skills to bind to the shield... And an extra PP would be two more spell resistance dice... Thanks for finding it.

QUOTE
@Bobson: Your character has shielding - giving him a shielding focus would be a much better bargain for him, because it adds its dice to all counterspelling. For the cost of the two Force: 2 counterspelling foci, you could get a Force: 4 shielding focus, or get a Force: 2 shielding focus to get the same +2 to counterspelling but save 4 Build Points.

Ooh. I'd entirely missed advanced foci. I'd love an anchoring focus, but that's not really feasible, but I'll certainly swap in a shielding focus. Thanks!
Bobson
Ok, here's the new version. Stuff I removed is struck through, new stuff is bolded. He currently has 12,550 nuyen and 9 karma/bp left over for misc. gear, lifestyle, and contacts.

The basics:

[ Spoiler ]


The Numbers:

[ Spoiler ]


The Magic:

[ Spoiler ]


The Gear:

[ Spoiler ]


Naked Armor (Orthoskin, dual-layer dermal plating, mystic armor): 14/14

Armor when suited up (above + armor, helmet, and shield): 39/35

Dice to resist damage: 15 + Armor, ignore one point of damage

Dice to resist spells: (11 or 13) 15 + resistance stat, can reflect.



Major changes include:
  • Added pain editor. No more being knocked out from minor points of stun damage in combat (biomonitor in his armor solves the "How damaged am I" question)
  • Reflection Metamagic added, Centering removed (he's got enough dice to resist drain already)
  • Added Biocompatability, Combat Monster (which stacks with the Bear Berserk, and synergizes with the Thrill Seeker), and Low Pain Tolerance (which he can ignore, because of his damage compensator. He takes penalties for every two boxes past 12 instead of every 3, but he only has 13 physical boxes). Removed Tough as nails.
ElFenrir
Whenever i see Combat Monster mixed with a tank, rather than seeing dishing out the attacks, I end up picturing them ''Hurt me! KEEP HURTING ME! Is that all you got?!?!'' grinbig.gif But that's awesome defense; the magic defense will come in awesomely handy.
pbangarth
Of course, we could get REALLY twinky, and have Uncle Zola summon a Force 12 spirit (I limit the example to 12 'cause that is pretty safe for U.Z. to summon) to possess Sir Thomas (not that Sir Thomas would ever AGREE to this, but just for example), make it a Guardian Spirit with Skill in Sir Thomas' monofilament sword, and you would have a combined entity with :

BOD 22 ( 12 extra dice for damage resistance)
AGI 16
REA 18 ( 12 higher INIT)
STR 21 (+6 DV)

and a dice pool for the sword of Skill 12 and AGI 16 = 28 dice.

Peter

P.S. This is something to keep in mind when we come face to face with Sir Thomas' evil twin.
ElFenrir
Could one of those spirits possess any of us? For example, could Azael's 20P kick become...more?

*evil grin*

Hmm...so it's basically take the stats and add the Force on? So Azael, for example, would become:

Body: 18(6+12)
Agility: 22(10+12)
Reaction: 21(9+12)
Strength: 25(13+12) kicks are used as if 27 str

Wow. 22+1(reach)+11(unarmed + spec) dice to attack with(34 dice), with, in armor(+3 str), a damage code of...15 base, +2 martial arts, +3 bone lacing, and +6 Critical Strike for 26P. Well crap. Against barriers, it's a power of 52.

He wouldn't be as damage-soaky as Sir Thomas but the offensive capabilities of this is insane. grinbig.gif
pbangarth
QUOTE (ElFenrir @ Oct 26 2008, 11:41 AM) *
Could one of those spirits possess any of us? For example, could Azael's 20P kick become...more?

*evil grin*

Hmm...so it's basically take the stats and add the Force on? So Azael, for example, would become:

Body: 18(6+12)
Agility: 22(10+12)
Reaction: 21(9+12)
Strength: 25(13+12) kicks are used as if 27 str

Wow. 22+1(reach)+11(unarmed + spec) dice to attack with(34 dice), with, in armor(+3 str), a damage code of...15 base, +2 martial arts, +3 bone lacing, and +6 Critical Strike for 26P. Well crap. Against barriers, it's a power of 52.

He wouldn't be as damage-soaky as Sir Thomas but the offensive capabilities of this is insane. grinbig.gif


Yes. The thing is, it wouldn't be Azael in charge (nor would Sir Thomas) -- the spirit would be in control, subject to the command of the magician who summoned it. Azael would be along for the ride, only. But yes, the stats would be improved as you indicated.

If a character would have the Channelling Metamagic Technique, then he would retain control of his body. Possession tradition magicians can have that Technique -- as does Uncle Zola, for example. So he can control his actions, or command the spirit to do something.

The hyper-powerful and armoured type of character would tend to be susceptible to forced possession, as the Opposed Test for possession pits the spirit's Force X 2 against the target's INT + WIL. In the case of Sir Thomas and the Force 12 spirit for example, this would pit the spirit with 24 dice against Sir Thomas with 7 dice. That's why Sir Thomas wants magicians with Counterspelling and/or Banishing on his side.

This discussion reminds me that I made a small oversight in Uncle Zola's creation. He does not have the Banishing skill, which is fine but I forgot to give him the Slay (Spirit) spell, so he could deal with possessed teammates without harming them. There is that old military truism, "Always have a way to defeat your own weapons." He can still deal with such a spirit, but the damage will affect the host, too. Well, I know where the next 5 Karma will go.

Peter

[EDIT] Hmmm... I don't think Counterspelling helps against possession attempts.
ElFenrir
So in Zola's case, when he commands a force 12 spirit to possess him and such, does the spirit get a ''Resistance Roll'' to try to do its own thing against Zola and get control over his body, or does Zola automatically ''win'' because of his Channeling metamagic? (we never did have anyone in SR4 every try any kind of possession or such thing, so I admit I'm funny on the rules there, too. So far our folks have been a bit more ''basic'' with the metamagic techniques.) Does a body possessed(without the Channeling metamagic) black out and possibly not remember anything that happened, or is it like they are watching, but can't control themselves?

And sheesh, Fx2 against Int and Will...anyone without the technique would want someone on their side(a normal human with no Exceptional Attributes would have a max of 12 dice to resist...a Dwarf could get up to 13..but vs. 24, the little guy would probably still get possessed anyway.)
pbangarth
QUOTE (ElFenrir @ Oct 26 2008, 02:47 PM) *
So in Zola's case, when he commands a force 12 spirit to possess him and such, does the spirit get a ''Resistance Roll'' to try to do its own thing against Zola and get control over his body, or does Zola automatically ''win'' because of his Channeling metamagic? (we never did have anyone in SR4 every try any kind of possession or such thing, so I admit I'm funny on the rules there, too. So far our folks have been a bit more ''basic'' with the metamagic techniques.) Does a body possessed(without the Channeling metamagic) black out and possibly not remember anything that happened, or is it like they are watching, but can't control themselves?

And sheesh, Fx2 against Int and Will...anyone without the technique would want someone on their side(a normal human with no Exceptional Attributes would have a max of 12 dice to resist...a Dwarf could get up to 13..but vs. 24, the little guy would probably still get possessed anyway.)


A possessed character without Channelling is aware of what is going on, but unable to do anything about it. Very horror show.

Uncle Zola is in charge and doesn't have to compete for control of his body, because of the Channelling Metamagic. If he commands the spirit to do something, then for the period of time that the spirit is acting, it is in control and Uncle Zola can only watch, or re-exert control whenever he wants to, even if the spirit is not done yet in which case the spirits action is aborted. Now, say one of the two initiates something (spell or power) that is to be sustained, as I understand it the sustaining bit can go on, even if the other 'inhabitant' of the body is doing something actively. Sustaining a power or spell can be accomplished even from one plane to the other. So, for example, Uncle Zola may choose to have a Detection spell ongoing, and instruct the spirit to stick with the party and engage in gunbattle if necessary.

Yes, a Force 12 spirit is scarily powerful and can possess just about anyone it wants to. Fortunately they don't usually want to unless instructed to do so. Even Uncle Zola would resist an opponent's spirit with only 13 dice to the spirit's 24. That's another reason Uncle Zola likes to already have a spirit in there with him. (Think Dr. Venkman conversing with the Gatekeeper in "Ghostbusters".) Remember, Uncle Zola has made a career of fighting the Shedim around New Orleans, and they hate him (Spirit Bane). It would be sweet for such an entity not to kill him, but to possess his body, say after he has been knocked unconscious or projected into the astral plane. Having a spirit already possessing him prevents that from happening. When 'swapping out' a spirit, say at sunset, he will be extra vigilant astrally. Can't be too careful.

Ironically, this opposed test must be made even for his own spirits, and the possibility exists that he, subconsciously and automatically, could resist the possession by his own spirit. Fortunately, for his own spirit Uncle Zola's body is considered to be a 'prepared' vessel, so the spirit gets 6 more dice. This is why Uncle Zola may on occasion use a lower Force spirit, especially a Bound spirit -- but not too low as it probably would fail.

But hey, Force 12 spirits are NOT common. Uncle Zola has focussed on being able to Summon and Bind spirits, and particularly to survive the pernicious Drain of doing so -- physical drain for anything higher than Force 8. This is his version of being a 'tank'.

Peter
pbangarth
OK, this is silly. Of course Uncle Zola would have learned Slay Spirit. It is integral to his story. I have swapped Slay Spirit in and Makeover out. He will just have to wash his face and brush his teeth like the rest of us.

Peter
Bobson
QUOTE (ElFenrir @ Oct 26 2008, 03:47 PM) *
And sheesh, Fx2 against Int and Will...anyone without the technique would want someone on their side(a normal human with no Exceptional Attributes would have a max of 12 dice to resist...a Dwarf could get up to 13..but vs. 24, the little guy would probably still get possessed anyway.)


Yeah, there's some things it's just not possible to prepare for...
pbangarth
This is true for all characters -- everybody has weaknesses that can be exploited, and which need to be covered by other team members.

Peter
Ryu
QUOTE (pbangarth @ Oct 26 2008, 11:37 PM) *
OK, this is silly. Of course Uncle Zola would have learned Slay Spirit. It is integral to his story. I have swapped Slay Spirit in and Makeover out. He will just have to wash his face and brush his teeth like the rest of us.

Peter

The possessed and the spirit share one monitor, and each "gets to keep" the accumulated damage at the time of separation (IIRC). So "Slay Spirit" would IMO not help, too.
pbangarth
QUOTE (Ryu @ Oct 26 2008, 10:31 PM) *
The possessed and the spirit share one monitor, and each "gets to keep" the accumulated damage at the time of separation (IIRC). So "Slay Spirit" would IMO not help, too.


The sidebar on page 103 of SM supports your point clearly. Damn. These PCs have been around and are supposedly some of the best in the biz. Silly me. What Uncle Zola really needs is a Slay Spirit type spell that does S damage, not P. Stunball would affect both host and spirit. It would appear that the only way Uncle Zola could drive a spirit out of a body he wants to save is by using Banishment. Finally I see more value to that Skill for him. I avoided that Skill because I saw Stunbolt and Slay Spirit as sufficient. Silly me.

In battling Shedim, Uncle Zola would have encountered many instances in which the body was already dead, so no problem. But the last thing he would want to do is blast away the street sam beside him to get at the possessing spirit inside. Yet once more back to the drawing board. I hope the revisits to the drawing board end before Jake closes the submissions.

Thanks, Ryu. Humour me, Jake.

Peter
pbangarth
So... I had to pick Shedim to be the spirits that don't like Uncle Zola, didn't I?

Uncle Zola is now edited to be able, well, to have a chance to deal with Shedim and spirits in a body he doesn't want to hurt. Basically, I added Banishing to level 4, dropped a spell, reduced Arcana Skill by 1, moved BP and Karma around and used Group costs to start the Conjuring Group.

Even the Attack of Will does P damage, so that too would harm the host. And touching a Shedim is bad news. Sucks to be Uncle Zola.

Question:

Shedim are described in SM, page 155. There it says they can be considered Free Spirits. On page 106, Free Spirits are all said to have the Banishing Resistance Power. Back on page 155, that power is specifically listed under Master Shedim, but not under normal Shedim. So do normal Shedim also have the Banishing Resistance Power?

As far as I can figure, they do, and the listing under Master Shedim was a redundant listing. Opinions?

Peter
Bobson
QUOTE (Bobson @ Oct 20 2008, 01:18 PM) *
The other one is less well defined, but it's going to be an updated version of a SR3 edition character I played. A fairly typical rigger type, with two primary vehicles. A highly tricked out van and a walker drone that's loaded to the bolts. The version I had before had two arms with assault weapons, and had another chest mounted... The one time he fired all three off on full auto at once (unaimed), it took out the supports for half the building we were in. How well that'll translate over to SR4 I don't know, but I'm hoping it works out well.


Well, I'm both happy and frustrated with the SR4 vehicle customization rules. I forget exactly how customized the old van was (I still haven't managed to find the sheet), but I'm certain it was more so than the 16 slots of an Ares Roadmaster allow for now... I'm going to have to rethink what I can actually stuff in there...
pbangarth
The Mana Static spell (SM p. 173) creates a background count of 1 per hit. Background count reduces the Force of spirits in the area of effect 1:1 (SM p.117). Any spirit whose Force is reduced to 0 in this manner is disrupted.

Disruption (SM p. 94) is described as having a spirit's damage track filled. It is specifically said that spirits joined to vessels, "...are only disrupted if they suffer sufficient Physical damage to kill them through damage overflow."

So, if Mana Static were cast in an area in which a spirit was possessing a living vessel, and disrupted it because its Force had been reduced to 0, would that by definition mean that the spirit received killing Physical damage, and by extension, the host as well?

My sense is 'yes', and so Uncle Zola's problem would not be solved by this spell. Any thoughts?

Peter
ElFenrir
I can't help but think there are more ways to get a spirit out of something without harming it, besides Banishing.

Now, Stun has the benefit of...while ''harming'' the person, pulling enough hits will just leave them knocked out and with a nasty hangover when they wake up. It would suck if you needed them for the mission, though, as it takes time to recover.

I don't see how Mana Static would hurt the host. The host is just...a body. I could walk through an area with Mana Static and it wouldn't hurt me. Why would the spirit being hurt go to the body...unless they share a damage track, which I didn't think was the case, but I may have misread something about them.

pbangarth
QUOTE (ElFenrir @ Oct 27 2008, 02:17 PM) *
I can't help but think there are more ways to get a spirit out of something without harming it, besides Banishing.

Now, Stun has the benefit of...while ''harming'' the person, pulling enough hits will just leave them knocked out and with a nasty hangover when they wake up. It would suck if you needed them for the mission, though, as it takes time to recover.


Yes, that is my main worry - disabling a teammate.

QUOTE
I don't see how Mana Static would hurt the host. The host is just...a body. I could walk through an area with Mana Static and it wouldn't hurt me. Why would the spirit being hurt go to the body...unless they share a damage track, which I didn't think was the case, but I may have misread something about them.


SM, p. 103, sidebar: "Physical damage inflicted during possession is tracked as a single entity. If the spirit and vessel separate, both retain the full amount of damage they've taken while joined..."

Now, I may have missed the most obvious thing: the above talks about Physical damage. Maybe a simple Stunbolt is all that is needed --IF-- the controlling persona (spirit or Channelling mage) is the only one of the two affected by Stun damage. If only the possessing spirit in control of a character would be hurt by Stun damage, then it would be simple to get rid of it. I can't find anything that specifically says Stun damage is shared as well.

Can anyone else point me to a definitve answer?

Peter
ElFenrir
Hmm...in a loophole bit, doesn't Mana Static reduce the Force of a spirit, possibly disrupting it...WITHOUT technically ''damaging'' it? It's a small discrepancy, but it could mean a big difference. So physical damage is shared if a spirit is possessing someone. We don't know about Stun. But Banishing doesn't hurt the host...and doesn't Mana Static technically disrupt/banish the spirit rather than damage it?
pbangarth
Well, Uncle Zola now has Banishing, and talk in the Possession FAQ thread tends toward saying a mana effect such as Stunbolt that does Stun damage can be directed at either the spirit controlling the body, or the body. If that is the case, then U.Z. has at least one, possibly two or three ways to attack a spirit possessing someone he doesn't want to hurt.

Peter
Glyph
Here's the face. Kind of a femme fatale. After I was completely done with her, it occurred to me that a covert ops/disguise master type of face would probably have been better. Oh well, she'll fit in with the rest of the pink mohawk crew we've got going here, anyways. nyahnyah.gif

Stats:
[ Spoiler ]


Background:
[ Spoiler ]
ElFenrir
I like it. Excellent and face-ing and rounded to boot; plenty of stealth and perception, and Monowhip weapon focuses are always nice for if bad stuff happens. And yeah, I mean, we have a rather fun motley crew of prime runners anyway, so I think she'll fit in just fine. grinbig.gif She's still in almost Pornomancer range with the dice(up to 34), has plenty of contacts and will help the group out a lot, given their not too facey-ness otherwise.

I think Count Blacula is our only mundane so far. The dwarf drake is a mage, Zola's a mage, Syren, Basher, Azael are adepts with cyber, Sir Thomas is a Mystic Adept and we have a Technomancer; unknown about our Rigger yet. But, then again, Awakened and Techno-Awakened are just...awesome.

Also: Good to hear that it looks like Stun might be another answer to the Possession dilemma; well, half-dilemma. In the sense that the more ways you have to deal with it, the better.
Bobson
QUOTE (ElFenrir @ Oct 28 2008, 07:39 AM) *
I think Count Blacula is our only mundane so far. The dwarf drake is a mage, Zola's a mage, Syren, Basher, Azael are adepts with cyber, Sir Thomas is a Mystic Adept and we have a Technomancer; unknown about our Rigger yet. But, then again, Awakened and Techno-Awakened are just...awesome.

The rigger's going to be mundane.

QUOTE (Coldhand Jake @ Sep 9 2008, 12:01 AM) *
Up to 400 BP can be potentially spent on the base 8 Attributes...I wouldn't recommend it...but there you go.

For the record, it's impossible to spend 400 BP on core attributes. THe maximum is 355 if you have an exceptional attribute, 330 if you don't.

As a side project I'm throwing together some stats for a pure non-cybered mundane. He might have minimal cyber or bio, but he'll have at least 5 essence, and nothing to reduce the essence costs. I want to see what I can do with all that BP...


On first pass, he's a human with 7 reaction and edge, 6 agility and intuition (and essence!), and 5's in every other stat. He's got 30 active skills at 4, and another 10 at 1-3, lots of really nice positive qualities (speed reading & photographic memory, for instance), his negative qualities mostly relate to him having a record trail (and a day job, but I'm not sure doing what - "legal" mercenary, maybe?)... and I'm only 58 Karma over the 800 limit. 10 more points of negative qualities available, and 50k cash to spend right now. Back to the rigger for now, but I'll follow up on him later, if I get a chance.
Bobson
QUOTE (Bobson @ Oct 27 2008, 01:12 PM) *
Well, I'm both happy and frustrated with the SR4 vehicle customization rules. I forget exactly how customized the old van was (I still haven't managed to find the sheet), but I'm certain it was more so than the 16 slots of an Ares Roadmaster allow for now... I'm going to have to rethink what I can actually stuff in there...


Ok, the van's finished. It's not as uber as the SR3 van was, but it's what I was able to put together. It's an Ares Roadmaster stealth/detection/getaway transport. No weapons (but it has the two default gun ports) except for an anti-theft system and a ram plate (and the speed to use it). Even the troll I built will have problems by being rammed at 65 m/turn (which is a rather paltry 1.3 kph or .8 of a mph, and which I can easily reach from a standing start in one turn) - he'd have to resist 48P damage with his 50 dice to resist impact damage... Not happening.

Also, packed with sensors and the best software money can buy. Total cost is about 155,000, which really isn't that bad.


I'm running into problems with the walker, though. THe old one was a centorid form, with four legs, two arms, and a torso. It was also the only drone he had, but it was loaded. Rebuilding it doesn't really seem to be viable in the SR4 rules, at least without GM approval (which is something to be avoided in these scenarios). So faced with the option of re-imagining his drone forces. I could make either a stealth or combat-ready anthroform, based on the two Arsenal models, or I can get a bunch of combat lynxs or the combat drones, or something else like that... Basically, do I want one or two uberdrones (and for combat or for espionage), or a series of lesser ones? I can certainly afford both, but it's a question of what I'm able to transport and still have room for the rest of the team. Roadmasters are big, but not that big (the old walker had braces on the floor in the center of the van, and the rest of the team braced against it along the sides). Thoughts?
pbangarth
Ok, gang, I've had a character kicking around since before Uncle Zola, and decided to see what would grow out of the vat if I threw him in with another 400 points beyond the base.

This character is probably dearer to me than Uncle Zola, and I really don't know how he would perform in a 'prime runner' environment. Please kick his tires and let me know what you think.

I present Bongo Slade, Mystic Drummer:

Background

[ Spoiler ]


Stats

[ Spoiler ]





Peter
Glyph
Hell with "prime runners", you got the ultimate singer/dancer and the ultimate drummer. Syren and Bongo could form a band. rotfl.gif

I like the character. He doesn't quite fit the "make a superpowerful version of X to go against otherwise untouchable opposition." What I like about things like high BP and karmagen, though, is that you have enough points to explore concepts that wouldn't be nearly as feasible in a 400 BP game. With the standard 400 BP you can make effective characters, but points are tight. You usually don't have enough to really get a nice spread of things outside of your main specialty.
ElFenrir
That is the exact reason why we use the 750 Karma these days. You CAN make characters like that. My recent fellow, despite being a sam in build and implants, has a really high Armorer/Weaponsmithing skill and Artisan/Metalworking skill, along with Armorer Kit/Shop and everything; and Knowledge Skills that go with this. He can basically just make his, and his team's, own weapons once he gets a facility; but he more or less does it out of the love of doing it; he has some rather nice swords and knives that he makes, in a variety of styles. He prefers making melee weapons due to the basic qualities that go into them. While it does have *technically* more of a shadow-runny purpose, he would like to basically open his own specialty store one day and sell some of his ''masterpieces''.
pbangarth
I just took a look at Syren. Wow. Hyper-charismatic, double-jointed exotic dancer with a whip. love.gif

This is the kind of person inspiring Norah Jones' "I've Got to See You Again".

Peter
pbangarth
One combination tactic that Uncle Zola would have practiced and know cold, but which I would like feedback from the crew here to help me understand, involves combining spirit possession of a vehicle and the reinforce spell. This combination would have many uses, from enhancing our getaway vehicle to hardening a fuel tanker as it is hurled at high speed into a target we wish destroyed.

The thing I am not sure of is how fast could a vehicle go, aided by the spirit's movement power, before various physical forces tear it apart. For example:

1) Hack a tractor-trailer of jet fuel, then physically destroy the electronics that would allow re-hacking (the spirit will drive, and dispossess just before it hits, 'cause Uncle Zola doesn't want to piss off spirits any more than he already has)
- Body of 24, Armor of 8, Speed of 90 (Arsenal, page 193)

2) F12 spirit with the Movement and Guard powers possesses the vehicle.
- add 12 to Body, Armor, Acceleration and Speed of vehicle
- treat vehicle as if it has hardened armor of 24

3) Cast Reinforce on vehicle and sustain.
- on average for Uncle Zola, this will have 5 hits, so add 5 to Body and Armor

So, the possessed, reinforced tractor trailer would have:

Body 41
Armor 25 (plus hardened armor effect of 24)
Max speed of 90 X 12 = 1080 meters/ Combat Turn (over 1200 kmh!!)

Somewhere between standing still and going at max speed the wheels would fall off. Any guidelines, maybe based on Body/Armor, on how fast the vehicle could be made to go and still hang together?

For a getaway vehicle, handling would be a big issue, so keep that in mind. For a 'possessed missile', probably going pretty much in a straight line, handling may not be so difficult. But the spirit would have REA of 12, and also would have the Guard power to help prevent accidents.

Peter
Bobson
QUOTE (pbangarth @ Oct 30 2008, 12:44 PM) *
Max speed of 90 X 12 = 1080 meters/ Combat Turn (over 1200 kmh!!)


Why are you multiplying here? I thought it was add 12, which would mean only 102 m/turn.
pbangarth
QUOTE (Bobson @ Oct 30 2008, 10:29 AM) *
Why are you multiplying here? I thought it was add 12, which would mean only 102 m/turn.


Possession adds the Force of the spirit. I forgot to do that! The Movement Power multiplies. SR4, page 289:

QUOTE
Movement
Type:P â—? Action: Complex â—? Range: LOS â—? Duration: Sustained
The critter may increase or decrease the subject's movement rate within the terrain it controls. Mulitiply or divide the target's movement rate by the critter's Magic.


Peter
pbangarth
So, where do things stand with this idea, Jake? Is there more that you would like from us?

Peter

P.S. Man, I sure know how to kill topics! Including this one, in which I posted last, 5 days ago, the last time I checked I had posted in 29 topics, some going way back, and in 8 of them I was the last poster.
Bobson
QUOTE (Bobson @ Oct 28 2008, 01:29 PM) *
I'm running into problems with the walker, though. THe old one was a centorid form, with four legs, two arms, and a torso. It was also the only drone he had, but it was loaded. Rebuilding it doesn't really seem to be viable in the SR4 rules, at least without GM approval (which is something to be avoided in these scenarios). So faced with the option of re-imagining his drone forces. I could make either a stealth or combat-ready anthroform, based on the two Arsenal models, or I can get a bunch of combat lynxs or the combat drones, or something else like that... Basically, do I want one or two uberdrones (and for combat or for espionage), or a series of lesser ones? I can certainly afford both, but it's a question of what I'm able to transport and still have room for the rest of the team. Roadmasters are big, but not that big (the old walker had braces on the floor in the center of the van, and the rest of the team braced against it along the sides). Thoughts?


Given the lack of other people's thoughts, I've decided to do a series of mission-specific anthroforms, of which he'll probably only use one at a time. This rigger (as yet unnamed) refers to his actual body as the "soft body" and his other drones/vehicles as the "mobile body", "heavy body", etc, or something like that. When you have .27 essence left, and almost all of that is due to headware, it kindof messes with your concept of self...
pbangarth
Sorry Bobson, I missed that question. If it matters now, I tend to think small and flexible is better.

Peter
Cthulhudreams
I'm slightly disappointed not to see an ally spirit merged with a vampire. That would be the most powerful character you could make with 800BP.

Not clear how you'd pay for the vampire though haha.
Glyph
You know, I've been following the Divine Comedy game thread, and it's just struck me that Syren and Portia have a similar trauma in their backgrounds. Both of their lives were turned upside-down when they found out their families were involved in gruesome business practices. Interesting.
Bobson
First pass at the rigger:
The basics:

[ Spoiler ]


The Numbers:

[ Spoiler ]



The Gear:

[ Spoiler ]


The Van:
[ Spoiler ]


The van's basically a mobile command center, although it's not armed (other than the anti-theft system, the camera neutralizer, the ECM, and the ram plate). It's packed with sensors, camouflage, and speed, and the pilot's smart enough to basically run it itself. It only takes two turns to get up to maximum speed (which sadly didn't get boosted), and nothing's going to survive being rammed by it once it's had one turn to "run" (or two to "walk") and passes the 60 speed line... because then it's doing 48P+hits damage to whatever it hits, and resisting 16P+hits (with 32 dice). Even the troll I built before can't survive that without getting really lucky.

His personality (what there is of it) amuses me too. Clearly he spends too much time communing with his pilot programs.
Glyph
Cool character. Very good at his role, good fit with the team, and even the dry stats for him and the van have "personality". cool.gif
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