In the world of SR4, most of the hatred seems to be oriented towards Orks and Trolls. This is understandable - they're huge, they're ugly, and the're far more fecund than their human counterparts. (In fact, unless I have the math wrong, about half of Seattle would be Orks by 2070.)
There are no shortage of reasons for small-minded people to be scared of them, but an important distinction must be made - these are all on a societal level. Elves and dwarves, on the other hand, are likely to be loathed on a very personal level for a simple reason:
They don't die.
When an elf enters the corporate structure, he's already got a leg up on his human counterparts - a greater degree of innate social ability (+2 charisma) will help him climb the social ladder. As time goes on, an elf will never fatigue from age (at least not for a long, long time), eventually reaching seniority over any human unable to afford or use leonization by virtue of not being dead. It doesn't matter if he climbs the corporate ladders slowly - he's got a good three or four human lifetimes to do it . Dwarves are almost as bad, though they don't fit in to corporate culture quite as well or live quite as long.
Because elves, dwarves, and the rare leonized human generally won't retire or die in the scope of the Shadowrun setting, positions near the top of corporations will open infrequently or not at all: it's hard to compete with someone who's older than you, in better physical and mental condition than you, and is going to be that way for decades after you die. As the decades go by, the upper eschelons of any corporation will be increasingly filled with elves, with humans relegated pretty far down the chain of command.
As such, there's probably quite a lot of hatred for elves amongst white-collar humans - enough so to create a huge amount of support for Humanis and a big market for shadowruns that create vacancies at the top.
Full Version: Elves and dwarves - why doesn't everyone hate them?
Frankly, because they're not old enough yet. The oldest (non-Spike Baby) elf in SR is only 60 years old. Wait for them to be the majority of centurions and still working and things get touchier. We've touched on the problem with the Ancients, whose tendency for a static leadership differentiates it from other gangs and leads to some serious frustration among the younger and newer members, but life span by itself generally doesn't engender resentment in humans except over a long period of time. The average life expectancy of a human in ethnic group A is 35 years; the average life expectancy of a human in ethnic group B is 75 years. Do you hate human B for the fact that he's statistically more likely to grow older? Is that a guarantee that human B will live longer? Hell, no. He could get cancer, or a disease, or hit by a car.
Most people LIKE Dwarves.
Because they are small.
Many short Stories and Little Jokes can be told about them.
Including minor plays on words. Miniscule things like variations of the word small.
And they more or less have a reputation of being honorable hard working people, mastercrafters.
and they have the reputation to love a good life. good food, good alcohol, good houses.
As for elves?
Yeah everybody pretty much hates them.
Because they are Racist bastards that look better than you. And they make you feel as if they WERE better than you too.
Yeah, accidents can and do happen . .
Because they are small.
Many short Stories and Little Jokes can be told about them.
Including minor plays on words. Miniscule things like variations of the word small.
And they more or less have a reputation of being honorable hard working people, mastercrafters.
and they have the reputation to love a good life. good food, good alcohol, good houses.
As for elves?
Yeah everybody pretty much hates them.
Because they are Racist bastards that look better than you. And they make you feel as if they WERE better than you too.
QUOTE
He could get cancer, or a disease, or hit by a car.
Yeah, accidents can and do happen . .
Sounds pretty reasonable.
Unless metahuman rights haven't advanced to the point that elves and dwarves get hired equally as often.
Old school corps may resist hiring such metahumans like they would have at one time resisted hiring blacks or women.
Unless metahuman rights haven't advanced to the point that elves and dwarves get hired equally as often.
Old school corps may resist hiring such metahumans like they would have at one time resisted hiring blacks or women.
Why would ANYBODY resist employing dwarves?
They take up less space, they are more durable, they are stronger, they are not fugly, they tend to keep to themselves and if not are usually a bit grumpy or party people.
They take up less space, they are more durable, they are stronger, they are not fugly, they tend to keep to themselves and if not are usually a bit grumpy or party people.
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ May 10 2009, 10:02 AM) 
Why would ANYBODY resist employing dwarves?
They take up less space, they are more durable, they are stronger, they are not fugly, they tend to keep to themselves and if not are usually a bit grumpy or party people.
They take up less space, they are more durable, they are stronger, they are not fugly, they tend to keep to themselves and if not are usually a bit grumpy or party people.
Do you have a lot of midgets working in YOUR office? Little People, with their reputation for positive attitudes, never-give-up gumption, and cute little feet should be in everyones workplace right? Except that they can't reach the light switches, get anything from the top shelf or keep up in a foot race. I'd think that while dwarves may well fill the ranks of drudging factory workers, dwarves, like trolls, would find their size alone precludes them from most workplaces. And while they may not be UGLY, their apperance is still arguably outrageous. I assure you, if I saw a dwarf, I would have to try really hard not to stare, point and whisper.
But this all brings up another question: What are the metahuman rights? Have the civil rights movements achieved the same for elves, orks, and others as they once did for minorities and women? Would unregulated racist hiring practices keep everything but humans disenfranchised? I mean they haven't been around very long, and plenty of people would argue that 400 years later, blacks and first nations peoples are still being forced into the lower rungs of humanity.
QUOTE (LamplightSlasher @ May 10 2009, 09:13 AM)
Do you have a lot of midgets working in YOUR office? Little People, with their reputation for positive attitudes, never-give-up gumption, and cute little feet should be in everyones workplace right? Except that they can't reach the light switches, get anything from the top shelf or keep up in a foot race. I'd think that while dwarves may well fill the ranks of drudging factory workers, dwarves, like trolls, would find their size alone precludes them from most workplaces. And while they may not be UGLY, their apperance is still arguably outrageous. I assure you, if I saw a dwarf, I would have to try really hard not to stare, point and whisper.
But this all brings up another question: What are the metahuman rights? Have the civil rights movements achieved the same for elves, orks, and others as they once did for minorities and women? Would unregulated racist hiring practices keep everything but humans disenfranchised? I mean they haven't been around very long, and plenty of people would argue that 400 years later, blacks and first nations peoples are still being forced into the lower rungs of humanity.
But this all brings up another question: What are the metahuman rights? Have the civil rights movements achieved the same for elves, orks, and others as they once did for minorities and women? Would unregulated racist hiring practices keep everything but humans disenfranchised? I mean they haven't been around very long, and plenty of people would argue that 400 years later, blacks and first nations peoples are still being forced into the lower rungs of humanity.
"Welcome to Mitsuhama Corporation. We are honored by your presence. On AR you can read our laws before entering our property."
Which topia?
Dystopia
I don't think anyone really hates dwarves. They haven't been behind any major social problems. The problem with trogs is that they look big and scary, and many of them are -- it's not that they're inherently violent, but social prejudice has made them poor, and that has made many of them into criminals, which has made them violent, reinforcing the stereotype. Dwarves still experience prejudice and stereotyping though. People are likely to think that dwarves can fix their car, and they'll do it happily because they all love to tinker. Dwarves are likely to get hired for factory and mining work, because everyone thinks they love that stuff. They wouldn't get hired for office work, not because they're too short, but because the prejudiced humans think they just wouldn't be happy if they can't get their hands dirty. I bet some humans are shocked when they meet a dwarf for the first time, and he doesn't speak with a Scottish accent, or carry a battle axe...
As for elves, humans might hate them more if they didn't hate each other so much. As has been pointed out, other elves are quite angry with the fact that their elders never die off and allow them to move up the ladder. It's true that elves think they're better than humans, but most of them probably think they're better than all the other elves, too. In fact, many elves might be nicer to humans than to other elves. It's easy to play nice with someone when they know you're more attractice and graceful than them. For humans, that's a fact that they can't dispute. Being mad an an elf for being pretty is like being mad at a celebrity for being pretty -- it makes no sense, they were just born with it and you weren't, and you can't change that. Many humans probably accept it pretty easily, just like they accept how pro athletes are stronger than them and celebrities are more famous than them. It's s a lot harder for elves to play nice with another elf though, someone who has all the same grace and charm, wants to take what they have, and can probably do it. The fact is, most humans who actually know elves will be pretty cool with them, because of how charismatic and attractive they are. That's how come we have elf posers. I don't think the facts bear out that people would be prejudiced against anyone who's better than them -- just look at Hollywood. These people are richer and more attractive than any of us will ever be, often by accident of birth, yet the vast majority of us would fall all over ourselves to touch them. Their superiority, in most of us, generates adoration, not hatred. Some people hate celebrities, just like some people would hate elves. But it wouldn't be the most common outlook.
The issue with seniority in corporations also probably wouldn't come up that much, since elves are such a small minority. And while humans might have to deal with elves living much longer than them, the elves would have to deal with entrenched power structures that regard metahumans suspiciously. Unless an elf can demonstrate his absolute loyalty to the governing interests of the corporation, he'd never be allowed to rise beyond a certain point. An elf might have a longer life, but he also has to prove himself all the harder because those who currently own the corp fear him plotting to take it over more than they do their human employees. Someone with more inherent ability and longer life is harder to control, and if there's on instinct that drives the ownership interests in a megacorp, it's the drive to retain control. And don't forget, even though elves are more charismatic than humans, they are not by nature smarter or stronger willed. Many humans are likely to outmatch many elves in the game of corporate powerplay. Because humans have a shorter time to achieve, they work that much harder -- elves take a longer view, but having a longer view doesn't automatically make them into unstoppable geniuses. An elf might move more slowly in situations that call for speed, he might miss opportunities based on the fact that he has no pressing need to seize them at any particular moment. He might work less hard to improve himself because there's no rush. Long life doesn't automatically translate to superiority, and might even work against it. Elves trying to compete with humans might find that they just don't care as much, and it's easier for them to go live with their own kind who operate at a much less stressful pace.
As for elves, humans might hate them more if they didn't hate each other so much. As has been pointed out, other elves are quite angry with the fact that their elders never die off and allow them to move up the ladder. It's true that elves think they're better than humans, but most of them probably think they're better than all the other elves, too. In fact, many elves might be nicer to humans than to other elves. It's easy to play nice with someone when they know you're more attractice and graceful than them. For humans, that's a fact that they can't dispute. Being mad an an elf for being pretty is like being mad at a celebrity for being pretty -- it makes no sense, they were just born with it and you weren't, and you can't change that. Many humans probably accept it pretty easily, just like they accept how pro athletes are stronger than them and celebrities are more famous than them. It's s a lot harder for elves to play nice with another elf though, someone who has all the same grace and charm, wants to take what they have, and can probably do it. The fact is, most humans who actually know elves will be pretty cool with them, because of how charismatic and attractive they are. That's how come we have elf posers. I don't think the facts bear out that people would be prejudiced against anyone who's better than them -- just look at Hollywood. These people are richer and more attractive than any of us will ever be, often by accident of birth, yet the vast majority of us would fall all over ourselves to touch them. Their superiority, in most of us, generates adoration, not hatred. Some people hate celebrities, just like some people would hate elves. But it wouldn't be the most common outlook.
The issue with seniority in corporations also probably wouldn't come up that much, since elves are such a small minority. And while humans might have to deal with elves living much longer than them, the elves would have to deal with entrenched power structures that regard metahumans suspiciously. Unless an elf can demonstrate his absolute loyalty to the governing interests of the corporation, he'd never be allowed to rise beyond a certain point. An elf might have a longer life, but he also has to prove himself all the harder because those who currently own the corp fear him plotting to take it over more than they do their human employees. Someone with more inherent ability and longer life is harder to control, and if there's on instinct that drives the ownership interests in a megacorp, it's the drive to retain control. And don't forget, even though elves are more charismatic than humans, they are not by nature smarter or stronger willed. Many humans are likely to outmatch many elves in the game of corporate powerplay. Because humans have a shorter time to achieve, they work that much harder -- elves take a longer view, but having a longer view doesn't automatically make them into unstoppable geniuses. An elf might move more slowly in situations that call for speed, he might miss opportunities based on the fact that he has no pressing need to seize them at any particular moment. He might work less hard to improve himself because there's no rush. Long life doesn't automatically translate to superiority, and might even work against it. Elves trying to compete with humans might find that they just don't care as much, and it's easier for them to go live with their own kind who operate at a much less stressful pace.
The age thing is kind of not relevant because of the tech level. If you look in Augmentation there are game rules for Age Rejuvenation. In the 40 years it will take elvian long life to become a major social issue, the medical procedures for Leonization will be much cheaper, that or it will be common practice for banks to loan money to pay for the procedure.... how is it not a good investment to loan someone the money to pay to be able to work for another 40-50 years.
QUOTE
It's true that elves think they're better than humans
This doesn't appear in my SR4A section on elves. Perhaps you're just showing bias.
QUOTE (Larme @ May 10 2009, 11:55 AM)
The issue with seniority in corporations also probably wouldn't come up that much, since elves are such a small minority.
They are not THAT small a minority. What percentage of General Electric's 320,000 employees has the word "Chief", "Chairman" or "President" in their title? Way less than 1%. Maybe 0.1% if you count the divisions in addition to just corporate.
I don't hate elves per se. Just the immortal ones and those elves with the "My, am i not better than you short lived lowly human being?", but outside the Tirs, how many think like that or actually show that attitude?
QUOTE (HappyDaze @ May 10 2009, 12:57 PM)
This doesn't appear in my SR4A section on elves. Perhaps you're just showing bias.
That is because the elves have taken over printing and other arrangements.
QUOTE (GreyBrother @ May 10 2009, 10:42 PM)
I don't hate elves per se. Just the immortal ones and those elves with the "My, am i not better than you short lived lowly human being?", but outside the Tirs, how many think like that or actually show that attitude?
The Ancients for example.
The Wakyambi? Isn't that another Elf-Only-Country?
And in the Allied German States there's Pomorya . .
And then there's basically every single elf ever played or written.
QUOTE
Just the immortal ones and those elves
Immortal elves can't really be called elves anymore than drakes can still be properly called metahuman.
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ May 10 2009, 11:17 PM)
The Ancients for example.
The Wakyambi? Isn't that another Elf-Only-Country?
And in the Allied German States there's Pomorya . .
And then there's basically every single elf ever played or written.
The Wakyambi? Isn't that another Elf-Only-Country?
And in the Allied German States there's Pomorya . .
And then there's basically every single elf ever played or written.
*shrugs* An Elven only gang? So what? There are Troll and Ork only gangs.
Wakyambi are a race, not a country.
Pomorya... i can ignore it. Just bad Fanfic, and thats about it.
You are just biased, so your last comment is irrelevant too in this question. Anything useful?
QUOTE
Wakyambi are a race, not a country.
IIRC, one of the old SR novels did have an elf-dominant African nation. Azania, perhaps?
I love dwarves personally.
- J.
- J.
Great, just great.
Now I have Soft Cell playing on repeat in my head.
BlueMax
/dang you all
// Dang you all to heck
Now I have Soft Cell playing on repeat in my head.
BlueMax
/dang you all
// Dang you all to heck
QUOTE (SpasticTeapot @ May 10 2009, 06:39 PM)
Because elves, dwarves, and the rare leonized human generally won't retire or die in the scope of the Shadowrun setting, positions near the top of corporations will open infrequently or not at all:
Poor SK employees. If an elf or dwarf's bad, what about a damn dragon? Still they voted Dunkelzahn for president.
That dragon oly holds a single position. There's still plenty of sweet spots for talented metahumans in SK. Of course, "on the menu" is one of them...
QUOTE (HappyDaze @ May 11 2009, 07:47 AM)
IIRC, one of the old SR novels did have an elf-dominant African nation. Azania, perhaps?
Perhaps. I have to say i don't know. A check on Sixth World Wiki just brought this up
QUOTE
Legends states that the Wakyambi are descendants of the sky people, who exist in the myths of some African cultures. Therefore Wakyambis enjoy in their homeland a good reputation and many privileges.
If someone wants to rage about that.... 
I just can't stand that "All elves are played as arrogant nature loving assholes" babble Stahlseele is famous for. Nothing against you, but cut it out. Are we frickin roleplayers or humanis trainees?
Depends.
Ever played a Humanis trainee? *snickers*
Personally, i hope i get to be a Troll ^^
I have the experience from trolling people/boards on teh intarwebs *grins*
and i can't really help it.- Elves just rub me the wrong way somehow <.< . .
I'd prefer Ghouls as Team-Members over elves for petes sake x.x . .
And yes, that part with the Wakyambi was my mistake, i had thought they had their own nation in Africa.
Ever played a Humanis trainee? *snickers*
Personally, i hope i get to be a Troll ^^
I have the experience from trolling people/boards on teh intarwebs *grins*
and i can't really help it.- Elves just rub me the wrong way somehow <.< . .
I'd prefer Ghouls as Team-Members over elves for petes sake x.x . .
And yes, that part with the Wakyambi was my mistake, i had thought they had their own nation in Africa.
I never understood the elven stereotypes as well. It even said in black and white there can be poor and ugly elves, too. I mean, think about how THEY must feel. I dunno why all elves are potrayed as instantly drop-dead gorgeous. (Okay, so my elven sam is a good-looking guy. But so is my friend's human. And I've seen handsome orks and trolls played as well. There is nothing in the book that hard-wires one race into being ''ALL pretty automatically'' or ''ALL ugly automatically.'' Orks and trolls, due to their tusks, tend to get shuffled into the ugly pile but I don't see why some can't express a little different than others.)
Anyhow, I don't have a problem with any of the races, but I admit the random ''elf hatred'' does bug me, simply because there is NO point to it. (For the record, random dwarf, ork, and troll hatred bothers me too, but they aren't as vocal.)
The only thing why I can try to explain why elf/dwarf haters seem more vocal is:
-They somehow feel bad, inside, for orks and trolls, since picking on them seems like picking on real-life minorities, and it hits a bit too close to home for them.
-Elves and Dwarves have had the whole time in fantasy worlds, and have longer-time exposure, thus more time for folks to build up pointless hate toward the fantasy races.
-Whenever a race is seen as being good-looking, it seems to be habit that folks kinda sometimes shy away from them, due to the real life views of Hollywood starlets and the like. This could partially be due to peer pressure.
-Orks have the best BP ratio.
I mean, I could be totally off with things, but this is a stab.
Funny thing is, I know some folks who are, say, prejudiced against Elves because ''eh, they're all pretty and full of themselves'', then they will turn around and make a Troll with 15,000 nuyen of cosmetic surgery turning him into the 8 foot tall Adonis, and this is ''okay'' since ''he's not an elf.'' I mean, there is nothing wrong with wanting to play a character that looks good, but why pick on a race for looking good when you enjoy playing good looking characters? And again, remember, all elves automatically do not look good.
Anyhow, I don't have a problem with any of the races, but I admit the random ''elf hatred'' does bug me, simply because there is NO point to it. (For the record, random dwarf, ork, and troll hatred bothers me too, but they aren't as vocal.)
The only thing why I can try to explain why elf/dwarf haters seem more vocal is:
-They somehow feel bad, inside, for orks and trolls, since picking on them seems like picking on real-life minorities, and it hits a bit too close to home for them.
-Elves and Dwarves have had the whole time in fantasy worlds, and have longer-time exposure, thus more time for folks to build up pointless hate toward the fantasy races.
-Whenever a race is seen as being good-looking, it seems to be habit that folks kinda sometimes shy away from them, due to the real life views of Hollywood starlets and the like. This could partially be due to peer pressure.
-Orks have the best BP ratio.
I mean, I could be totally off with things, but this is a stab.
Funny thing is, I know some folks who are, say, prejudiced against Elves because ''eh, they're all pretty and full of themselves'', then they will turn around and make a Troll with 15,000 nuyen of cosmetic surgery turning him into the 8 foot tall Adonis, and this is ''okay'' since ''he's not an elf.'' I mean, there is nothing wrong with wanting to play a character that looks good, but why pick on a race for looking good when you enjoy playing good looking characters? And again, remember, all elves automatically do not look good.
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ May 11 2009, 11:19 AM)
Ever played a Humanis trainee? *snickers*
Something similar. And theres a difference between being and playing something.
No go back to work, ya slacker!
i AM at work right now <.< . . pity me! ;_;
May MAIN-Problem with elves is, that they get the Charisma-Bonus.
Evenif the Elf is portrayed as ugly as all fuck, Rules-Wise he will STILL be more Charismatic than the best looking Dwarf, Human, Ork or Troll . .
And i am still not happy about close combat and heavy weapons now being agility linked instead of strength or Body . .
May MAIN-Problem with elves is, that they get the Charisma-Bonus.
Evenif the Elf is portrayed as ugly as all fuck, Rules-Wise he will STILL be more Charismatic than the best looking Dwarf, Human, Ork or Troll . .
And i am still not happy about close combat and heavy weapons now being agility linked instead of strength or Body . .
ALso, don;t forget one of the biggest obstacles that Orks and Trolls have to overcome, and one that Elves and Dwarves do not: Goblinization.
Oh sure, it's incredibly rare these days, effects one in a million people or so. But less than 60 years earlier, it had been common enough, and led to the Night of Rage. I imagine some parents still use Goblinization as a way to scare kids, the way some parents use the Boogey man (Clean you're plate, or you'll goblinize!).
Also, at the end of the day, Elves and Dwarves look "Normal". Dwarves are a bit short, but that's easily overlooked. And Elves have pointy ears, but they're also, on the average, "pretty". Hell, outside of these boards, look at the love Elves get in almost any fiction. Look at the Legolas fangirls. People like pretty. And as has been stated, the longer lifespans haven't had time to really come into play yet.
Oh sure, it's incredibly rare these days, effects one in a million people or so. But less than 60 years earlier, it had been common enough, and led to the Night of Rage. I imagine some parents still use Goblinization as a way to scare kids, the way some parents use the Boogey man (Clean you're plate, or you'll goblinize!).
Also, at the end of the day, Elves and Dwarves look "Normal". Dwarves are a bit short, but that's easily overlooked. And Elves have pointy ears, but they're also, on the average, "pretty". Hell, outside of these boards, look at the love Elves get in almost any fiction. Look at the Legolas fangirls. People like pretty. And as has been stated, the longer lifespans haven't had time to really come into play yet.
Re: Charisma bonus-remember Charisma is usually seen as different than looks. Yes, you can be a charismatic bastard and look like you fell out of the ugly tree.
This somehow means that the ugly-ass Elf is somehow more...magnetic than the Adonis Troll.
This somehow means that the ugly-ass Elf is somehow more...magnetic than the Adonis Troll.
And this is supposed to work HOW?
He looks like a Greek God or something.
Why is he not as charismatic as that fugly elf?
Don't tell me Force/Power of personality <.< . .
He looks like a Greek God or something.
Why is he not as charismatic as that fugly elf?
Don't tell me Force/Power of personality <.< . .
Well, if you read the description of Charisma, it does say it's more than just looks. ^^
Damn, I now have a character concept from all of this discussion. Ill have to come back with it later.
Damn, I now have a character concept from all of this discussion. Ill have to come back with it later.
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ May 11 2009, 01:04 PM)
i AM at work right now <.< . . pity me! ;_;
Ditto. But you know what i mean, right? We all have stuff we hate and could rant and rage about (my preferred target would be the new World of Darkness) but it's bad karma to plaster this opinion in every thread you encounter. Netiquette and stuff, it's not mandantory but darnit it's good enough to use um, savy?
And now i think i will take my bets and play a troll as next character. Maybe a rigger.
If the Rigging stuff would not totally nerf my preferred field of action(read, hurting people), i would constantly play Troll-Riggers ^^
Yes, yes, i know what you mean. I don't even rant about SR4 anymore ^^
Yes, yes, i know what you mean. I don't even rant about SR4 anymore ^^
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ May 11 2009, 08:26 AM)
If the Rigging stuff would not totally nerf my preferred field of action(read, hurting people), i would constantly play Troll-Riggers ^^
Yes, yes, i know what you mean. I don't even rant about SR4 anymore ^^
Yes, yes, i know what you mean. I don't even rant about SR4 anymore ^^
But...you can overload a Tank with Big Guns and Missiles and have an army of Drones with Big Guns and Missiles...and hurt things just fine! And you could remote-control TWO tanks for double the fun!
Yeah, but no Hands-On-Stuff ._.
No bending Humans, Elves and Orks untill they break in half <.<
No using Dwarves as Thrown Weapons or to hit other People with.
But the explosions are pretty, you are right in that ^^
Pure efficiency, rigging tops out Combat just like that.
But i don't get to have nearly as much fun ^^
No bending Humans, Elves and Orks untill they break in half <.<
No using Dwarves as Thrown Weapons or to hit other People with.
But the explosions are pretty, you are right in that ^^
Pure efficiency, rigging tops out Combat just like that.
But i don't get to have nearly as much fun ^^
I don't think Elven longevity is ever going to be a factor in prejudice as described in the OP.
By the time this has become relevant, sometime about 2060 probably, the entrenched human power players in the Mega-corporations and Politics already had access to Leonization. It's mentioned a number of times in canon that there is a growing trend of upward mobility being restricted by a lack of dead men's shoes to step into.
The gracefully ageing Elves that were expecting to start monopolizing the top of Corporate power structures about now are no doubt finding that they are just as stuffed as humans. The top tier is now full and nobody is going anywhere.
The only way to move up the ladder is to push somebody above you off or to start climbing a new one of your own.
By the time this has become relevant, sometime about 2060 probably, the entrenched human power players in the Mega-corporations and Politics already had access to Leonization. It's mentioned a number of times in canon that there is a growing trend of upward mobility being restricted by a lack of dead men's shoes to step into.
The gracefully ageing Elves that were expecting to start monopolizing the top of Corporate power structures about now are no doubt finding that they are just as stuffed as humans. The top tier is now full and nobody is going anywhere.
The only way to move up the ladder is to push somebody above you off or to start climbing a new one of your own.
Well, for the longevity . . who the hell dies of old age in shadowrun anyway? O.o
Especially not elves i'd wager *snickers*
Especially not elves i'd wager *snickers*
Orks and Trolls do. Orks and Trolls...
But yes, my Rigger Concept is essentially just a commander. He doesn't jump in, he has an army of different drones for different jobs, be it surveillance, area denial, direct and indirect destruction, electronic warfare or even hand to hand combat. And he is probably just standing there with his Electronic Video Assistent (10 "Hah i knew it!" Points for those who get the connection) and pointing at small little dudes, feeling all powerful while in the background, an Ork dances to "You can't touch this". (another 10 Points, and a golden washing machine)
But yes, my Rigger Concept is essentially just a commander. He doesn't jump in, he has an army of different drones for different jobs, be it surveillance, area denial, direct and indirect destruction, electronic warfare or even hand to hand combat. And he is probably just standing there with his Electronic Video Assistent (10 "Hah i knew it!" Points for those who get the connection) and pointing at small little dudes, feeling all powerful while in the background, an Ork dances to "You can't touch this". (another 10 Points, and a golden washing machine)
Yeah, okay, i ran straight into that one i am afraid <.< . .
But we should include "killed to death and it being their own fault somehow" to the list of natural causes of death for elves.
But we should include "killed to death and it being their own fault somehow" to the list of natural causes of death for elves.
You know who is really going to hate elves?
Wives.
Sure, at 20, everything is good. You still have your tits. Maybe you're not as pretty as the your elven room mate Sandra, but at least you're in the ballpark. You can go clubbing together, and when she was your bridesmaid, you could still be the most beautiful woman in the room.
Then 39 rolls around. Babies have stretched you out. Laser surgery got ride of the stretch marks, but the baby fat keeps coming back after lipo. And there's nothing you can do for wrinkles and crow's feet except paralyze your face so it looks like a wax mask. Meanwhile, Sandra's still bouncy and gravity-defying. She looks like she just got out of college yesterday. She doesn't even have to dye her hair! The slitch.
And then your husband starts his mid-life crisis...
Wives.
Sure, at 20, everything is good. You still have your tits. Maybe you're not as pretty as the your elven room mate Sandra, but at least you're in the ballpark. You can go clubbing together, and when she was your bridesmaid, you could still be the most beautiful woman in the room.
Then 39 rolls around. Babies have stretched you out. Laser surgery got ride of the stretch marks, but the baby fat keeps coming back after lipo. And there's nothing you can do for wrinkles and crow's feet except paralyze your face so it looks like a wax mask. Meanwhile, Sandra's still bouncy and gravity-defying. She looks like she just got out of college yesterday. She doesn't even have to dye her hair! The slitch.
And then your husband starts his mid-life crisis...
Leave it to a Woman O.o . . . Or is you a male Nezu? o.O
Hey Steele, you were the one linking prettiness with CHA, despite the RAW specifying that it is more about personal magnetism.
Actually I think that biosculpting is sufficiently advanced and widely available that your aging wife can still look as good as she did when she was 20. She probably has her fat rolled away in her lunchbreak. If you're ugly, you're poor.
As for elves and dwarves being resented in the corporate structure, I think AH has made my point for me. It's not been long enough for an elf's life expectancy to have given them that much of an advantage. Certainly not enough for them to have claimed all the high level positions.
Actually I think that biosculpting is sufficiently advanced and widely available that your aging wife can still look as good as she did when she was 20. She probably has her fat rolled away in her lunchbreak. If you're ugly, you're poor.
As for elves and dwarves being resented in the corporate structure, I think AH has made my point for me. It's not been long enough for an elf's life expectancy to have given them that much of an advantage. Certainly not enough for them to have claimed all the high level positions.
Biosculpting is *extremely* insane in 2070. I mean, if you read the descriptions, simple moderate sculpting can basically re-construct your face totally, and I doubt it has the ''Ken Doll'' problems that modern severe plastic surgery does. Severe? We're talking chopping your body apart and putting it back together with other parts, adding Surge-like parts, all for the cost of about 20k nuyen and up to .5 essence, and that's for the *extremely* hardcore stuff.
Yeah, thinking about it again, I don't see how looks would come into play here.
Yeah, thinking about it again, I don't see how looks would come into play here.
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ May 11 2009, 10:25 AM)
Leave it to a Woman O.o . . . Or is you a male Nezu? o.O
On the Internet, no one knows you're a dog.
Biosculpting isn't overly detailed in the Holy Texts. I don't know about your SR4 stuff. Regardless, it costs essence (and a pretty penny). Middle managers aren't exactly going to be rolling in it.
As a note, can't the same justification be used for lifespan? Right now, the oldest elf is 60, which is still well under the average lifespan for a human. And the average lifespan for humans is leaping forward. Leonization is ten years old. (And do keep in mind, the average lifespan for a middle class or above person who survives birth is going to be very high, higher than the overall average.)
I imagine someone just entering the workforce now figures by the time he's 60, they'll have the technology to allow him to live to be 160 - and to make him still look 20. If that's the case, why is anti-elf bias warranted at all?
(I will say though, the thought of competition will still be fierce. In person, oftentimes people dislike 'beautiful people'. I imagine female elves will still have bad names among small wife cliques - and among the males who wish for them.)
That's pretty much how I run it ElFenrir. And even if you can't afford biosculpting or swish clothes, you can always attach stuff like that to yourself through AR. To some extent, people probably aren't going to be too hung up on appearance, since anyone can look pretty, so underlying personality traits will be more valued. Alternatively everyone will be suffering from body dysmorphia, and either suicidal or hooked on mood stabilisers (available in hard or wetware).
One question that's worth asking is what kinds of diseases of poverty are most prevalent in 207x? Do poor people get scurvy or beri beri? What about leprosy or polio in the barrens? I'm not talking about fatal stuff, but disfiguring stuff. I'm thinking about running it with a high level of carcinogenic pollution, but how do you incorporate that into your in game world? It's kinda twisted to randomly afflict a player with cancer, although it might work if they have been accruing more money that you like.
It could be funny to have a guard pull one aside during a security screening on an infiltration mission. The PCs would be all "but our SINs are cast iron! How did he pick us up?" And then the guard says; "I'm sorry Mr Woods, I have some bad news for you. Our bodyscan has detected a cancerous growth in your liver. We can put you in contact with our medical wing who can fix that for you for :yen:5000. However, if you take out our health policy for only :yen:50 per month, we can discount the treatment. It's also tax deductable if you are a corporate resident!"
One question that's worth asking is what kinds of diseases of poverty are most prevalent in 207x? Do poor people get scurvy or beri beri? What about leprosy or polio in the barrens? I'm not talking about fatal stuff, but disfiguring stuff. I'm thinking about running it with a high level of carcinogenic pollution, but how do you incorporate that into your in game world? It's kinda twisted to randomly afflict a player with cancer, although it might work if they have been accruing more money that you like.
It could be funny to have a guard pull one aside during a security screening on an infiltration mission. The PCs would be all "but our SINs are cast iron! How did he pick us up?" And then the guard says; "I'm sorry Mr Woods, I have some bad news for you. Our bodyscan has detected a cancerous growth in your liver. We can put you in contact with our medical wing who can fix that for you for :yen:5000. However, if you take out our health policy for only :yen:50 per month, we can discount the treatment. It's also tax deductable if you are a corporate resident!"
I wouldn't assume polio. However, sterility, birth defects, eating problems, cardiovascular problems, heart disease, genetic diseases, etc. should be more common, especially among the poor. I imagine the rate of cancer will be high, but so will the rate of mutation. Most of these would be undetectable, but it'll include a lot of mental diseases.
For those poor people who survive birth, I really have to imagine that mental defects will be the most debilitating problem. Brain chemistry is a delicate thing.
For those poor people who survive birth, I really have to imagine that mental defects will be the most debilitating problem. Brain chemistry is a delicate thing.
Biosculpting is detailed in Augmentation. It is expensive (depending on what you want to do) but that may be a price most elf-posers are willing to spend to become "better".
I would like to point out that while an elf can seem to "live forever" that doesn't stop them from being fired/disposed for their position. If you have a public corp all it takes is some other company to come along and buy you out and poof your out of a job. While SR may have a cure for old age, they still don't have a cure for fate.
I would like to point out that while an elf can seem to "live forever" that doesn't stop them from being fired/disposed for their position. If you have a public corp all it takes is some other company to come along and buy you out and poof your out of a job. While SR may have a cure for old age, they still don't have a cure for fate.
Don't forget mandatory retirement ages. They're used to both A: Keep company health care costs down and B: Keep younger employees further down the ladder in the company by giving them advancement opportunities. There have been quite a few lawsuits over these types of policies as older employees don't understand why they're being pushed out of a job for a less qualified employee, so they claim age discrimination.
QUOTE (Octopiii @ May 11 2009, 10:49 AM)
Don't forget mandatory retirement ages. They're used to both A: Keep company health care costs down and B: Keep younger employees further down the ladder in the company by giving them advancement opportunities. There have been quite a few lawsuits over these types of policies as older employees don't understand why they're being pushed out of a job for a less qualified employee, so they claim age discrimination.
Why on earth would any Megacorp give a rats hoop about age?
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I really don't think that companies are going to retire people as a matter of course. Using it to get rid of employees, sure, but they don't need an incentive to keep people employed. Fear of the barrens should be enough to motivate people to try and keep their jobs. They're called wageslaves for a reason.
QUOTE (ornot @ May 11 2009, 12:32 PM)
I really don't think that companies are going to retire people as a matter of course. Using it to get rid of employees, sure, but they don't need an incentive to keep people employed. Fear of the barrens should be enough to motivate people to try and keep their jobs. They're called wageslaves for a reason.
They need to keep people who have talents they need. Sure, they can give him a 24/7 armed "escort" to ensure he doesn't head off for greener pastures and bigger desks, but it's far cheaper to just give him that new title and nicer office in the long run.
Furthermore, you're forgetting it's not just about retention, it's about recruitment also. What person is going to sign up for corp A if they have to wait 30 years for a promotion due to the fact that the management level above him will never retire in his lifetime (so his only vertical career move is to hope the company either expands, or creates a new position just for him), when they can go to corp B and wait, say, 5 or 10. Even an Elf is going to weigh a 30 year waiting period being stuck with low level crap duties.
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