Wow, now it all makes sense!

Orks and trolls are the SR equivalent of black culture.

Elves are the SR equivalent of Jews (oi vey!)



Dwarves are still just dwarves.

And humans are WASPs. But where are the hispanics?

I'd put them with orks/trolls as well.

Note: I am not any sort of prejudiced person, but the different metas do seem to have a sort of real-world tie somewhat.

Excellent point! Perhaps a tad exagerated, but (like the turn-of-the-century political satirists) calls attention to the core truth by pointing out parallel exagerations. I like it.


*thinks about that a minute*
Um, yes and no. I have known people who were generally ok but had one specific group that just totally made them irate. I can see it being a lot more dwarfs being anti-elf while being ok with the "trogs". But generally I would have to agree.


This is very true, but I THINK the OP was why (in the fluff and canon novels) there SEEMS to be less overt (and violent) day-to-day hatred of the two earliest Metahuman variants, based on their observations. I agree that what automatic suspicion (as opposed to hatred) that exists is probably based on that idea.

My personal observation, however, is that over the last twenty years, the agregate baseline level of fear, hatred and violence towards metahumans has generally dropped significantly. This would essentially mirror the drop in outward racism in the later decades of the 20th century. There were still radical skinhead groups and not-so-silently steaming elder statesmen from Souther states, but across the board each new generation was born with a higher general acceptance of integration by the simple expident of experience and familiarity. People who were forced to swallow the whole "political correctness" idea in the 1990s resented and continue to choke on polite fictions and euphamisms while generations after that have always known only those references wonder what the big deal was in the first place. A woman earning the franchise at eighteen in 1980 would find the idea utterly alien that she should not have the ability to cast a vote as little as a century earlier. So while Humanis and their ilk, and the Tirs *grins at Ornot* represent the ongoing and essentially permanent core radical idiot hate group that always exists throughout history.

Nezumi:: you just figured that out? Seriously? Jews have been persecuted throughout the centuries for being "puppetmasters", "subversives" and other variations on those themes. That directly parallels them with the immortal elves. The UGE Meta-subtypes are the disadvantaged minorities, down to the urban slums (Orc Underground?) and guys in white pointy hats doing lynchings. The difference between the two is that it's still really easy to spot the "trog" (colored guy) in a crowd while an elf (Jew) takes a little more looking.

Hence the reason I said "perceived racism" and not "racism"

Though as far as the immortal elves are concerned, they are conspiring, and trying to run the world.

And that actor guy who did the blue faced Scottish warrior movie in the late 20th century would say the same thing about the Jews. It's all a matter of perspective, and how close to the "truth" you really are.

Hello? Orxploitation?

The Tir Tairngirie/Israel parallels are pretty strong.

I am not talking IC, from what we (the players) know, the IEs are plotting. It's not a matter of point of view, or anything, it's simple game world fact.

Just because they're out to get you doesn't mean you're not paranoid.

I've been playing since well before there were any immortal elves, so my preconceived notions on what other peoples' preconceived notions were were set well before the IE plotline came along to reform the generally held preconceived notions.

(The ork = black thing I figured out well, well before orxploitation.)

Fuchs and I may disagree on whether or not we are playing Fantasy Future but here we agree. Some IEs plot to rule the world.

As for Orxploitation, and trog parallels ... let me look across the bay into Orkland. Yeap, spot on.

BlueMax

Hold. the. phone. Exactly what do you mean by the first clause? Are you implying when SR1 hit the streets, none of the writers had IEs in mind? This would be fascinating to learn about but its hard to accept.

BlueMax

I have been with the game since first printing twenty years ago, myself. I guess MY perceptions are colored because back then IIRC the hatred of the "trogs" was so strong it totally overshadowed the elves in all the fluff. Feeling towards the elves was much more akin to the the Republican characterization of Democrats: effete simpering sissies and dandelion eaters. *grin* My recollections of the "immortal" plotlines go back a long way, including something about an elf named Leonardo. *wider grin*
I really meant no offense and no disparagement. I was just surprised that the connection hadn't occured to you, given the insight I've seen in so many of your other posts.

*Kerenshara eyes you with narrowed eyes speculatively*
Did you know Grandpa?

I want to clarify something. In First Edition , elves were Dandelion Eaters. Elves were vegetarian as part of the game mechanics.

The first act of the elven conspiracy was to have this changed.

And yes, I too think that IEs go way the fark back.

BlueMax

Ok, speaking strictly OOC, I conceed that there are IE plotlines, but that being said, there are immortal DRAGON plot lines, too. And Dragons seem to be either adored and worshiped, feared or hated. That particular hate doesn't seem to be so much racial as more along the lines of the hatred for the mega-corps as general entities.

The dragons don't get the hate because the dragons are interesting. Well, most of them. Ghostwalker, Hestaby, and Aden still suck because they are little more than Godzilla with wings. Lung, Lofwyr, Dunkelzahn, and the other noteworthy greats figured out how metahuman society worked and leveraged their wealth and intellect to beat metahumanity at its' own game. Now, they push their own agendas in the same ways that Damien Knight, Roweena O'Malley, or any career politician would.

*Laughs delightedly*
Exactly! People hate them because they're like their own megacorporations, or own their own mega (see Lofwyr with Saeder Krupp as an example).

Well.. Maybe I was exagerating a little bit. Prior to Harlequin's Back/Dunkie/Horrors etc. towards the close of SR2, Immortal Elves weren't really all that plot important. They really only appeared in one book (Harlequin, which our group didn't have), and as some odd comments in other books, neither of which really made them important to world politics. They didn't own banks or run corporations or any of that jazz (that we could tell from the street). Since they weren't really politically important, there was no 'conspiracy'. Elves were judged based on elves, and IEs were basically unknown to everyone, runners included. The writers clearly had IEs in mind, but I don't think they imagined IEs actually being well-known.




None taken. I wasn't sure of your background either. I just always had my mind set in one place, with IEs basically being unknown. Having never read the SR4 book that mentions the conspiracy theories, it was completely new to me




Hmmm... strong evidence.

The elves just mediablitzed 1st edition so folks would have this feminine, vegetarian, dandelion-eater, harmless tree hugging hippy stereotype of them that would cause them to be constantly underestimated throughout the rest of the game's lifespan. I know it's worked for my characters.

There is tech to improve one's attributes via metagenetics. Tech to improve the effects of a given attribute rating. Tech that improves other abilities, like vision, hearing, etc.

Sure that elf will still have a +2 CHA over what you get baseline but with optimization, you get +1, other ware can help you compensate. Leonization and other anti-age related procedures will make you live long time. Low-light vision, not a problem. Agility, again no problem here.

The only real benefit is that the Elf gets it for free. You have to pay for it. Kind of like getting a perm to make your hair curly. Some people get that for free from genetics (like me). Others have to pay money for it (like my wife).

The elf can also use those same technologies and keep +3 ahead.
"Uhh Blue, you meant to say +2."
Nope, +3. Because his +2 allows him to take even MORE advantage of technology.
6/9
8/12

Also, as my fluff was trying to convey: Hate isn't logical.

BlueMax
/at least not always.

The real Elven Conspiracy^TM is that there is no Elven Conspiracy^TM, every elf knows this...

Uhuh, then why trademark it?

BlueMax
/we dwarves have it easy
//but we are short on charm

Never said the Elf couldn't take them either.

Just wanted to point out that you as a baseline Human can get rather close to a baseline Elf with some tech adjustments.

Sorry, I do not disagree at all with the statement that
"A baseline human can catch up to the Baseline elf with help"
I missed the point and the shame is mine.

My focus is on the top end. Where I state
"12 is a whole success better than 9 and in Fourth Edition, a success means something."


BlueMax
/who can be dense
//wishes it was muscle density.

Hm? What? OH don't mind that...
Instead, pay attention to the insult down there...

That's not all they're short on...

If we're talking DPs of 20+, 3 more or less is not really that important - especially once you factor in edge.

So, really, elven or human racial attributes pale when tech takes effect.

OK,
This is where you get to laugh at my group(s). Ain't nobody throwing 20+ DP
OTOH,
If I had a choice to hire a Elven geard up to the max negotiator and a Human geared to the max, I would take the Elf. Unless a Dryad Surge Survivor who had been genetically enhanced after being born with an Exceptional Charisma was available.

BlueMax
/no slashie

With the exception of the adventures Harlequin and Harlequin's Back, the vast majority of the IE stuff is in the Shadowtalk - which makes it less fact, and more of something for each GM to determine the truth about for his/her own games.

[bites tongue]

mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm mmmmmm mmmmmmmm

While there is a measure of truth in the above, I wish there were more.
For a decade, or more, I ran my games without any interference from the metaplot. When we moved Editions, this made it harder on us. There *was* a Renraku Shutdown. Yeats was dead. I could go on and on. The point is the metaplot is official. A GM may set whatever she wants but it may not fly. People want what they know.

I have a table of people who *want* 1993 Shadowrun. Its what they know. And here I am dragging them into 2008 Shadowrun, kicking and screaming.
My Sunday game is still playing 1990 Shadowrun. We just finished Bottled Demon for Rod's sake. Its not a big deal to play an adventure you ran 15 years ago. I hardly remembered anything.

BlueMax

Game Information in Threats chapter "The Atlantean Conspiracy" give away a handful of facts, out of context, including the number of IE in the world and the way their immortality works. Any GM is still free to ignore things he does not like.

Our most recent party ran through the old "Food Fight" intro (not the new one online) from the back of the old 1st Ed hardback, updated for the new rules. It was a blast! (Ok, to be completely honest, it was more fun for some people than for others. My dice loved me and I could do no wrong. But that's another - very funny - story if anybody wants to hear, since I wrote it up as a short story.) We even used the old "color, consistency and flavor" charts and wound up covering one party member in neon blue "Mango Bannana Curry Beef Jerkey^TM" which actually came out a lot more like a thick liquid after being hit by machine pistol fire. Classic.

I do not think Shadowrunners are the measure for the kind of skill and talent the corporate elite has. You don't rise to the top in the megacorps without having the kind of talent and resources where your base racial advantages don't really matter that much anymore.

The whole "Immortal Elves are trying to rule the world" theory is just the newest team in the game. Humans have been trying to rule the world for the past five or six thousand years (or more). I think any prejudice against elves will have "competition" at its core. Look at the tensions between the Irish and the Italians in the US New England region during the 1900s. The Irish came to the US in large numbers before the Itialians, set up shop, and became part of the norm. Then, the Itialians came over, found resentment when they found jobs and resentment when they didn't. Even through the 1960s, in some areas (Boston for example) the tensions were as bad between these two groups as the they were between blacks and whites in general. On a global scale, sure there may be elves trying to control the world, but what is new isn't the game, but the players.

Elves experience a lot of hate. Seldom have I seen a grey area when it comes to partiality to elves. You either love 'em or hate 'em. The nobility from the Tirs has contributed to that.

Just because [redacted] wants to [redacted] while [redacted] believes instead that they should [redacted], doesn't mean that there is a conspiracy. Hell, I know for a fact that [redacted] has [redacted] where she brought to light [redacted].

Note: This message brought to you by the letters A, D and N, and the number 7.

I wonder if there is any grey area when it comes to partial elves?
Or do some people hate the whole package, and admire those nice thighs?

There ARE no partial elves.
you are or you are not.- it's pretty binary.

Unless we chop them up. I'm sure there are some partial elves in Tamanous' banks.

Sorry I wasn't more clear, Stahlseele. I believe BishopMcQ understood where I was going with my comments.

Nah...elves are just too skinny! Now Ork ladies...that is where it's at! (I would comment about troll women, but we just do not have enough illustrations of them to draw an educated opinion)

I can't believe I am about to do this... *sigh*

"Elves?! Bah! What yeh need is a nice two hundred fifty pound dwa'f, with a bea'd y' kin hold ON to! Hah!"

LOL! (Literally)

I probably would like ork thighs better ... and shoulders. I like shoulders. Well defined, strong, athletic female shoulders. Meh. Who needs elves, all waify and such. Not so sure dwarves are my thing. I wonder if ghouls generally like one metatype over another. I wonder if steak sauce makes a difference. Elves and teryaki. Orks and steak sauce. Dwarves and barbeque.

Okay, maybe I shouldn't be posting after a 10 hour night shift.

For those with a fetish of big breasts or big butt, there's nothing better than troll women.

Unfortunately for the general consensus of most of those posting, if you're a leg man, it's tough to beat the length, definition and suppleness of an elven leg. Although, I am increasingly ammused.

Troll-Legs are allmost as long as elves are tall O.o

Troll arms are what's long. All the pictures of trolls I saw had legs that weren't terribly all that long. A bit short in proportion to their bodies.

I still remember the classic SR2 guy with the scythe.