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Penta
QUOTE (Whizbang @ Sep 20 2009, 02:23 PM) *
Sorry I haven't gotten my character sent in yet....work's been a bit busy. But after an open to close tommorrow I should be off for the rest of the week (in theory). So plenty of time to get to work on a character then. smile.gif


Perfectly okay. Just PM me when you're done, and I'll send my email address.
MusicMan
QUOTE (CollateralDynamo @ Sep 20 2009, 12:32 AM) *
Alot of good stuff has been considered today. I agree, the Classique looks good. I've been looking over mods and I have a few thoughts.

We've been talking about boarding other vessels, this is going to be very difficult to do. Zodiac boats might have the ability to get us in close, but actually getting up the level deck of any real vessel is going to be a serious problem, especially if we are taking enemy fire. As such, here is my proposal for general boarding/defeating of opponents:

1) Have our Classique yacht standing as if stranded out in the ocean near where we know our target is going to be. From here we can either
a) send out an SOS and hope that our fake permits and heir of legitimacy with our classy yacht will get the other ship come to us or
b) we actually have everybody who will be boarding the enemy craft in a zodiac boat some distance away with a fair forced tri-d phantasm
2) get in close to the enemy vessel using STEALTH. We won't be able to get into a real dog fight with pretty much anything we run into. We need to get in close and finish off hostiles quickly. This involves NOT rushing them with jetskis, we want to keep alarms low.
3) As we prepare to hit the deck, fire off every jamming device known to man. Ideally we have spotted this craft far enough away that our resident hacker will already be in their system and could help us a great deal with this.
4) Eliminate hostiles above decks, capture bridge. The capture bridge part may actually be obsolete, if we already have our hacker in place as admin, he should be able to re-route commands through himself.
5) Be damn sure of exactly what it is we are going to find downstairs: how many hostiles, what floorplan, what cargo.
6) Take lower decks quickly, systematically, and with as little bloodshed as possible. Perhaps even give the crew one last time to surrender and get dumped on a life boat.

In my mind, to pull this off well we need a number of things:
- Our yacht needs to look legitimate from a long distance (proper paperwork and the like that we can hopefully shift around after every job)
- Our yacht needs to look legitimate from a short distance (no obvious gun mounts, gun ports, or armor stapled onto our classy yacht)
- Our boarding vessel needs to be small enough to fit in a tri-D phantasm
- We need a mage with tri-D phantasm
- Our boarding vessel needs to be really fast
- We need to have a wide variety of jamming capabilities (likely we can find all sorts of wonderful jammers and buy them up from our group funds)
- We need to be good enough in boat driving and combat to get to where we need to be and down our hostiles

On top of this it would be nice to:
- Have a yacht that can make a good get away
- Have a boarding vessel that is stealthy without the aid of magic
- Have a land vehicle for when we go ashore (mule a la Firefly anyone?)
- Ultrasound is a good vision mode to consider, perhaps even radar domes, it could give us an edge while below decks

With these things in mind I am trying to work up a yacht at a reasonable cost, and even squeeze in another vehicle or two. Does anyone disagree or have an alternative to how we want to get things done? This is just my concept, I'm definitely open to other ideas.


It is VERY noisy out on a ship, and RIBs are not all that loud. If we play our cards right, they should not hear us coming. I know that RIBs are used as boarding ships by SF soldiers and pirates. You just need some rope and a little elbow grease.

The way I figure it, most ships will be pretty much run by pilot following a GPS rout and the human element will be rather low. As long as we can fool the pilot program, we should be okay. Bringing in our ship gives us a good chance of being identified and/or sunk.

I think our best plan of attack is to get our rigger/hacker onboard so he can take over the ship and lock down any security below-decks and out of our way. If we are getting shot at before we make it abord our target, then we need to consider aborting...

I know the SOS signal trick works both IRL and in movies... but I've never liked it. I think, if we are going to do it, we should wait until we have access to a second ship and use a ship we don't mind losing...
MusicMan
As a little inspiration, I found this on youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9hYlTOEKkU
Marwynn
Also, I do have Trid Phantasm as well as Vehicle Mask. Plenty of possibilities there.

My first payday will hafta go to getting some Foci because I'm tapped out at the start.
BaronKen
QUOTE (MusicMan @ Sep 20 2009, 01:56 PM) *
As a little inspiration, I found this on youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9hYlTOEKkU

Thanks for the link. However, it would have been more inspirational if they had to board while being fired upon. wink.gif
Penta
An update: Milk ducks has been approved.

As an aside, I just got Street Magic today. First FanPro printing, so if there's Errata, I'd like to know.
MusicMan
QUOTE (BaronKen @ Sep 20 2009, 06:45 PM) *
Thanks for the link. However, it would have been more inspirational if they had to board while being fired upon. wink.gif


It is my understanding that if you are being shot at, you don't try boarding actions; it's too casualty intensive.
milk ducks
QUOTE (Penta @ Sep 20 2009, 07:09 PM) *
As an aside, I just got Street Magic today. First FanPro printing, so if there's Errata, I'd like to know.


There is an erratta, I believe. I might have one on file I could toss you.

-milk.
MusicMan
Milk Ducks, I see your character has a SPAS... approval, I has it.
Penta
And MusicMan wins 2 karma for later expenditure.

Why? Because he went out and statted up a Zodiac for me.
---
Zodiac International Hurricane VI RHIB

With over 80 years of history and development, Zodiac's Hurricane line of rigid hull inflateable boats is the best selling and most well-known RIB in the 6th world. The Hurricane is fast, small, manuverable, and easy to transport. They are commonly used by militaries and law enforment officials who need a quick an power craft that can be easily deployed from a larger ship or helicopter. Over the years the Hurricane base model has been kept highly streamlined, boasting only simple manual controls and only the most basic of sensors. These options can be added-on in more advanced models.
Std. Upgrade: Assembly Time Improvement

Handling +3
Accel 15/35
Speed 90
Pilot 0
Body 10
Armor 4
Sensor 1
Avail 9
Cost 30,000Y
---
Rulings I'm making: Each Zodiac holds 16 people, including the 1 operator.

Disassembled, your typical Zodiac fits in about a cubic foot, excluding the engine. Assembly takes Body minutes, and uses one tank of compressed air - which costs 1Y at your local gas station and .5Y for refills.

This is only your 'stock' version. Zodiac sells numerous modified versions, all made in the UCAS.
Marwynn
Contacts are bought as standard right? Just clarifying as I put the final touches.
CollateralDynamo
Yes, we never managed to sell Penta on the "free contacts based on stats" thing. Which pained me as I spent somewhere in the ballpark of 30 pts on contacts. But I guess he did give us free 20 BPs, and I can't stay mad at that face!
Penta
Heyyyy, I feel like I'm being mocked here...

Your only free contact is Kevin Roberts.
CollateralDynamo
notworthy.gif Eway are not orthyway. notworthy.gif Just messing with you, I got no problems with how you did it so far.

I'm still playing with boat plans and will probably have a few proposals for you based primarily off of Arsenal things by tonight.
Penta
Right.

FYI, my aim is demon penta 2 without the spaces.

If you want to chatter, that or gchat is a good way to get ahold of me.
Marwynn
Ahh just clearing that up, I knew I had those free points for a reason.
Penta
Okay, I was going to post a listing of who's finished and posted, but my brain is melted from school.frown.gif

Who wants to take 5 minutes and do that?smile.gif
milk ducks
QUOTE (Penta @ Sep 21 2009, 11:21 AM) *
Who wants to take 5 minutes and do that?smile.gif


I'll take care of it; gimme a few minutes to change and feed my son, and I'll get right on it.

-milk.
CollateralDynamo
I already have a list running of people who want to play up thread Milk Ducks, should make your job easier for updating and re-posting.
milk ducks
QUOTE (CollateralDynamo @ Sep 21 2009, 10:43 AM) *
I already have a list running of people who want to play up thread Milk Ducks, should make your job easier for updating and re-posting.


Yep, yours was exactly the post I was looking for. smile.gif

Approved and posted in OOC thread:
MusicMan: Alexander "George" Andreou
milk ducks: Alan "Albatross" Brass
CollateralDynamo: Robert "Zalermo" Bennicimo
Budoka05: Approved!

Currently unfinished characters:
Knight Saber - posted character on page 8, instructed to email the packet to Penta
Marwynn - Seems to be almost finished, perhaps awaiting final approval
Whizbang
BaronKen
Ears

-milk.
Penta
many thanks guys.

Budoka is actually approved, he just has yet to post.
CollateralDynamo
So, I'm thinking about more options for boats, and trying to go a little off the beaten path here, but I would like a ruling from the GM before I start going over board on concepts:

- The rule of thumb of 2 body per occupant for transportation makes sense. But what should our rule of thumb be when it comes to living? We are doing more then simple travel on this boat. It looks like we already have 9 people, assume we might need to transport an extra one or two at some point, throw in cargo on top of that, and we are looking at a very large vessel. Even if we keep quarters small and double up, if we want any sort of cargo capacity at all I think we'd require at least a body 30 vessel to hold us. Agree? Disagree?

- There is a rule for converting the costs of things not covered in core books based upon real world costs. (I believe it is 1 usd = 25 nuyen), since we are going so off the beaten path here, can I get a nod on using this to try to find an appropriate vessel type? Obviously you would have final say if a certain type of vessel was obtainable.

- Costs for ships in the books assume top of the line and new, second-hand I would imagine that it would be cheaper, if in a state of disrepair. In SR3 I know they had rules for buying crummier versions of the norm, does Penta want to make a judgement call on modifying some base stats to save a percentage? (Modifying one ship stat down a notch saves 10% or somesuch)

Thats all I can come up with for now. But I would like to reiterate that we are going to need a BIG vessel if we go by standard rules, and we might want to recheck how price ranges are being figured.
milk ducks
I do think we're going to need a fairly large ship; larger than a minor surface combatant (like a missile boat) at the very least. In my opinion, anything smaller than, say, a Cutter, is going to be pretty cramped for nine guys ... especially if the nine guys involved are a rag-tag group of semi-suicidal black-ops specialists with less-than-standard moral values and itchy trigger-fingers.

And especially especially if some of them are trolls.

We should probably be looking for something big and sturdy that we can pick up at a discount, like Dynamo said.

-milk.
Penta
I'm going to presume 1 body per person for living....Only, however, if the vehicle is body 12 or higher, though, and only for ships. (IOW, aircraft and other things you wouldn't expect to live on for months have no living space). This presumes, at middle lifestyle, you have roommates. The H&W classique III, for reference, I'm presuming can hold about 20 people. RW yachts do at least that well. Cargo we will abstract severely.

I remember that rule re costs, thought it was 1 usd=1 nuyen. However, yes, go out and seek.

No, I don't really want to have to restat stuff.smile.gif

MusicMan
Ooh, can I modify my HK to have an internal magazine and be clip fed? That should make reloading easier... I can bring back the en bloc clip from the M1 Garand...
Penta
Did you not just see me say I don't wanta restat stuff?
CollateralDynamo
Alright, fair enough.

I agree with Milk Ducks that we need something big. I'm not quite as convinced as our GM that you can fit people 20 people comfortably living on a classique, but we'll run with that assumption, it makes the numbers easier anyway. However, I also agree that a Classique doesn't feel right for the campaign. I see that Penta is allowing us to take the Classique without the luxury lifestyle mod saving us 10 grand. I also see that anything that was once militarized is well outside of our price range.

Basically the only statted vehicle that we can both afford and fit in comfortably seems to be the Classique. So, my thought process is "what has the same stats (roughly) as a luxury yacht, without the luxury?" Poor handling, not so great acceleration, but plenty of capacity. I am thinking some sort of Fishing Trawler. However, with our price range, we'll probably have something more like this. But I am cool with that, its dingy, its gritty, and its got character.

So, how do people feel about an old converted fishing vessel as our primary base of operations? I'm particularly interested in Knight's opinion as captain. It would be cool if we could go with something old mil spec, but unfortunately all of that seems too small or out of our price range.
CollateralDynamo
QUOTE (MusicMan @ Sep 21 2009, 11:51 AM) *
Ooh, can I modify my HK to have an internal magazine and be clip fed? That should make reloading easier... I can bring back the en bloc clip from the M1 Garand...


There are alot of fun things you can do with the Arsenal rules for modding weapons. I'm away from that book at the moment, but I'm pretty sure you can do something similar with actual rules before you need to go poking at a gm for rules mods. nyahnyah.gif
Penta
Exactly, CD!
---
You guys have 500k nuyen total from your employer for whatever the heck you choose to buy (boat, common gear like diving stuff, ship weapons, mods to the ship, whatever). This 500k is a rock-hard un-expandable number. Think of this like packing for the journey when you played Oregon Trail in grade school.smile.gif

Employer advised you during your initial meet that you'll want to blend in, especially in the Carib.
---
Now, part of the reason why I suggested the yacht is that it does that - in Florida and the Carib, speaking as someone whose parents have a condo down there in FL, those small yachts are actually pretty common. True enough in 2009, I see no reason it'd change by 2072.

It also was what the last group used, so I did all the math already 2 years ago.smile.gif
---

If you guys want to write up the ship as lightly-used, okay, though no stat changes. If you want to build a ship with R3 and convert it over, okay - though you'll be doing all the math!:P
MusicMan
QUOTE (CollateralDynamo @ Sep 21 2009, 12:59 PM) *
There are alot of fun things you can do with the Arsenal rules for modding weapons. I'm away from that book at the moment, but I'm pretty sure you can do something similar with actual rules before you need to go poking at a gm for rules mods. nyahnyah.gif


Nope, SR totally failed to distinguish between "clips" and "magazines." In fact... it's kinda lame that they are confusing the two, as any serious marksman will slap you over the head and give you a stern talking-to for calling a magazine a "clip." In fact, I have to resist the urge to correct it every time I see it on here... wacko.gif

The other thing that I didn't see in Arsenal was muzzle breaks (to include flash suppressors and recoil compensators)... though I guess that technically could be a Gas Vent I system. They also totally ignore the concept of rail systems, which are pretty much ubiquitous on modern firearms.

Then again, a firearm's "power" is based on it's caliber, and the difference between individual handguns is mostly a matter of personal preference. For the most part, there should be little variation between weapons in the same class (up to assault rifles). IRL there is no difference in the stopping power between a High-Point 9mm and a HK MP-5; the MP5 is just a better (read: more stable) platform. The only difference between a SMG and a handgun is the SMG's ability to be set to full-auto and its larger size makes it more stable enabling better control over the weapon.

I would like to see another stat added to the weapons though: reliability. That is the main difference between most firearms, how well they can resist malfunctions. If they stated a reliability code as well, the number could be the weapon's ability to resist glitches (or at least, downgrade them). I think that there should have also been a sidebar in arsenal about the types of malfunctions that can occure with a firearm.
Penta
extinguish.gif

SR is meant to be abstract.smile.gif
MusicMan
QUOTE (Penta @ Sep 21 2009, 01:41 PM) *
extinguish.gif

SR is meant to be abstract.smile.gif


Cause all those modification rules in Arsenal and all that stuff in Rigger 3 is totally "abstract." cyber.gif
Penta
Touche.
MusicMan
Just remember: shooting a M-16 requires a totally different skill than shooting an AR-15...

.. but if it makes you feel any better, glitches do happen: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11fcg543Jow
Marwynn
QUOTE (Penta @ Sep 21 2009, 11:35 AM) *
I'm going to presume 1 body per person for living....Only, however, if the vehicle is body 12 or higher, though, and only for ships. (IOW, aircraft and other things you wouldn't expect to live on for months have no living space). This presumes, at middle lifestyle, you have roommates. The H&W classique III, for reference, I'm presuming can hold about 20 people. RW yachts do at least that well. Cargo we will abstract severely.

I remember that rule re costs, thought it was 1 usd=1 nuyen. However, yes, go out and seek.

No, I don't really want to have to restat stuff.smile.gif


So then we can all squeeze into a Zemlya-Poltava Crest?

It's a whopping 200k less than the Classique, though it is known as a speedboat. Half the body of the Classique and 2 points less armour but it has a topspeed of 80.

I just don't see plenty of stats for big ol' ships in SR4, and I'd prefer something less obvious than a speedboat. It could be worth considering, and our employer could perhaps pay for mods to a ship we capture ourselves. We can lavish our attention upon it then, instead of starting out with a fully fleshed out boat.

But I'm going to dig through the SR3 books just in case. I don't fancy we'd survive for long in speedboat.
MusicMan
The idea was that we could use the classique as a floating FOB, but use a Zodiac for actual runs.
Marwynn
Yeah I got that. What I meant was could we instead use the Crest as our Mothership and acquire the rest.

Is the Classique good with everyone? I'm alright with it to be honest.
MusicMan
I think we would have more flexibility with the classique... I know that Penta her Rigger 3, and that has some other stats for the boat that he is using.

I pretty much think that we have received the Voice of God that the classique should be our starting ship...
CollateralDynamo
I'm fine with it, its modifiable and could make for an interesting base of operations. I heard dissent on the concept earlier tho.
budoka05
In regards to out budget, I just realized that we should set aside fund to take care of Docking Fees, Waste Disposal Fees, Boat Taxes, etc.

Unless we can go off the map for those things of course wink.gif
Penta
It's not Voice of God at all.

When I do Voice of God, it'll be really, really clear. I leave voice of God for the important shit, like no lasers.

No, at the moment it's an earnest suggestion.
---

I'm going to presume that fees, taxes, etc. are so marginal as to be unnoticable. Say a flat 50 yen. I certainly don't want to have to bother with em.
CollateralDynamo
Hey guys, it sounds like we are least taking the stats for a classique, if not a classique itself. As such I whipped up some thought on mods for it that I want you guys to kick around and give me some opinions on. The cost comes out a little high already, so we may need to pull it back as we pick out other things. I'll thumb through arsenal tonight and try to pick us out some diving gear and food and the like, someone did some work on that earlier I believe.

Classique III (24 available mod slots)
-03,000 Pilot (Upgrade to 3)

-01,000 Additional Fuel Tank (For when we just can't make port)
-05,000 ECM Rating 5
-02,500 Fuzzy Logic (Helps when the ship needs to pilot itself)
-01,250 Improved Economy (Doubles Economy, GM says that fuel economy will be monitored, so this seems a good buy)
-05,000 Lock-On Countermeasures (Need it, and don't have it....)
-02,500 Nitrous Injection (Its the only affordable speed booster)
-05,000 Personal Armor Rating 10 (Adds 10 Dice to damage resistance tests if inside the vehicle)
-02,500 Rigger Adaptation
-03,000 Shielded Smuggling Compartment (A)
-03,000 Shielded Smuggling Compartment (B)
-00,600 Winch (Classic)
Total Cost: 225K (ship w/o luxury mod) + 34.35K (13 Slots of Upgrades)

Expensive (but undoubtedly handy) Options:
-20,000 Concealed Armor Rating 20 (-4 perception to notice armor, ballistic and impact armor, costs 1,000 per rating 20 max)
-12,000 Sun Cell (This doubles economy again as long as the sun is present. It is somewhat costly and I don't see whether this would double our base economy, or our modified economy, can I get a GM ruling on this?)
-08,000 Signature Masking Rating 4 (this negates 4 points of sensors. There are two problems with it, the availability is higher then what is usually acceptable at char gen. So I need to know if the GM signs off on it, it also takes up 4 mod slots, but we have the slots to spare)
-48,000 Hydrofoil Capability (By far the most expensive upgrade on my list, doubles speed and halves fuel economy. This is the only real upgrade I see that gives us a chance to escape another vessel. But the cost is really harsh. Thoughts?)

If we take all of this the cost goes up by about 75K and 8 slots...like I said, expensive.

Final note, Rigger Cocoon, do we need one? I think not.

What do you guys think of these mods? Things to add? Remove? I'm still very flexible. What random gear do we need to buy? How many Zodiacs do we want?

Budoka05 Raises a good point, we should save some of the money if that is possible, but i think somewhere between 20 and 50k would be more then enough for fees and emergency costs.
Penta
The Classique (and all ships I can see from SR4 or Arsenal) seems to run on diesel, so I don't know how much a SunCell would help - sorta sidestepping that ruling, yes.

I'll waive avail on the sig masking.

"Inside the vehicle", for a ship, I'm going to rule means "belowdecks", ie inside the superstructure or other enclosed spaces. If it's exposed to weather, it ain't covered by personal armor.

I cannot tell by RAW if a ship is meant to have two smuggling compartments.
CollateralDynamo
The books are kind of ambiguous. Basically I want to have it set up so we have two seperate places to stash things. So, even in the worst case only half our illegal things get found. Or if we have to show port authority something...we only need to empty out one. Is that only one upgrade?
MusicMan
VOG has said that the SunCell is not available for the Classique.

I don't really think that we need the speed upgrades. I think we should focus more on having a vehicle that will pass an inspection and look "innocent." The Classique should be a BASE not a weapons platform. We're not going to be flying a skull and cross-bones from the mast, and no one should have a reason to chase us.

That being said, even with hydrofoil, engine upgrades, and nitrous... a stock security craft could still catch up to us; making the whole idea pointless. On that note, the concealed armor is a little much, and I think we would be better off with the mod that lets us change the colour of the ship (can't remember the name). I agree with all of your initial mods, but I don't think we need concealed armor or the hydrofoil, and I've already gotten a "no" from Penta on the SunCell. Perhaps multifuel engine?
Penta
I...Y'know what, I'm going to say yes, one upgrade.

Because I can't tell either what the heck was meant.
MusicMan
Oh, and I'd skip on personal armor... it's a waste on something that is not supposed to be a fighting ship.
Penta
MusicMan: You're thinking of chameleon coating.
Marwynn
I think two Zodiacs with one unassembled and stored on the Classique should be good for us.

I like 'em all, and I vote for your upgrades as well. But I don't see any guns.

Also, what about the Ducted Waterjet? -4 to detect it. Satellite Communication? Also are we adding Gunports, Weapon Mounts, Torp Launchers? Drone Racks?

Whoops, replied late. Though I don't think it'd be too bad if we get pulled over and have a few guns, our employer will square that away won't they? Cham Coating sounds great. But I'm still for some concealed armour, we'll be sailing around in an Armour 8 boat.
CollateralDynamo
The personal armor is cheap and only restricted. You won't get any argument from me that this place is a base and not a weapons platform. But I think defense will be important. Even the best laid plans...who knows who we will piss off, when the mob comes knocking for us while at port we'll want some armor.

I hadn't run the numbers and you're right, I can dump the speed boosts.

If we are dumping all the armor, then we may as well dump all the jamming, and evasion mods of all types. We can't assume that we won't get shot at, as a matter of fact I think we need to assume the opposite. Are we really going to use 250 grand on "random required goods"? I don't think so, with this extra money we need to invest in defenses, and those defenses include making sure that our boat can take damage. I agree that concealed armor 20 may be excessive, but if we have the cash, there is no written rule that says its easier to spot then rating 1.

Anyone else want to weigh in on this issue?
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