Chameleon Coating will run us 24K and since the sun cell doesn't work anyways that can be added to the list.

Ducted Waterjet seems pointless as our ship is already so big.

Satellite Communication could be done, but it would involve adding a huge dome to our ship, it seems a better option to just get it for our commlinks since it won't make for an unusual ship mod. But we could do it.

Gunports is a possibility, but at this point I would have to say that they would be just too suspicious for us to have any legitimacy. Weapon mounts and torpedo launchers would be very obvious. I would propose we get those on a small vessel that we take with us places. Perhaps on a zodiac (along with the ducted jets if possible). Drone Racks is a possibility, but that needs our Riggers input.

Keep it, I say. It's 20,000 and will come in handy for when we do get shot at. We can't always assume we'd remain invisible, or won't be targets ourselves.

Off the current topic.


I has a question for Budoka:
How did your character make it through an entire military enlistment and manage to not pick up a single firearms skill? You should at least have something like Firearms Skill Group 1 or Automatics 1...



Back on topic:

I think that our best defense will be evasion/deception. I honestly don't think we need gun turrets or any somesuch. Think about it this way... given the nature of what we do, if we are found, it'll be by a formal security force, they will attempt to board us and seize our cargo. We're not paramilitary, and we're not running a warship. They'll want evidence, and they'll want to take whatever we've stolen back. This means that sinking us will be a bad idea.

The military/Coast Guard doesn't sink smugglers and pirates unless they absolutely have to. They capture them, because they want to recover the material cargo that was stolen. Furthermore, putting smugglers and pirates on trial is better publicity than just sinking them.

Military boarding us is one potential option. But you also need to consider other pirates, organized crime syndicates, runners hired by disgruntled people to take us down, sea dragons, other crazy things I can come up with.

That's assuming they own the stuff to begin with. What if we're recovering stolen property? Sinking us seems like a good two-for-one.

It's the same principle we apply to our characters. My guy doesn't wear armour hoping to get into a fight, just when he does get shot at it'll save him. Also, we're fairly legal aren't we? With Letters of Marque? Unless it's a national navy that doesn't care about corp policies we can flash that.

We can have both Evasion/Deception and Defense.

...The LoMs are secret, Marwynn.

It's like any other shadowrun in that regard, your employment contracts are not for public knowledge.

There is no letter of marque... it's a Mr. J giving us his "nod of approval." I think it just means that we have consistant work from the same group.

D'oh!

Well all the more reason to be prepared I say.

Here are some numbers for a submersible version of the Cutlass patrol craft... I picture it as one refitted as a covert ops ship from the 2030s, recently sold as surplus... of course, the government might want some off-the-books favors in exchange for the sale to my character.

Cutlass (which has 2 pintel mounts, so light machineguns can be attached to them or stowed as needed)

Ballast Tanks 128K
Large Landing Drone Rack 20K
Ducted Waterjets 3.2K
Life Support Level 2 128K
Rigger Adaption 2.5K
Satillite Communications .5K
Searchlight 1.2K
Smoke Projector .7K
Smuggling Compartment x2 6K
Weapon Mount: Reinforced, Concealed, Heavy Flex Turret, Armored and Remote Control 25.5K holding
GM Light Cannon 50K

That comes to 455,600, with money left for ammo, drones, a pickup truck, etc. Too crazy?

I agree that armor would be good (and explainable), but how much better can we do with weapons mounts equipped with whatever we can buy, than we can do with small arms? I figure that rifles and LMGs will put out just as much firepower than anything we could put on a mount... unless you guys want a frackking deck gun?

If we get into a battle where it comes down to mounted weapons, we'll have lost in the first place. We might as well focus on not fighting that battle. If it comes up... we can mount up in the zodiacs and haul drek.

I have one question. Instead of a submersible Cutlass, why wouldn't the gov't just...build a sub?

Appearances?

I like that ship... or boat.

I just crunched a few numbers:


Any of the LMGs or MMGs listed in Arsenal, when used with APDS rounds have higher damage potential than a GM Light Cannon. FA at 6 trumps the SA at 13.

Secondly, if we REALLY must put out that much damage and get the AP value, a Ballista with AV rockets will give us alot more bang for our buck as we can use it in more places and it is even more concealable. Or we can just buy LAWs...

I'd also like to point out that mounted weapons require the Gunnery Skill, which only two of us have so far, and we don't really have much of it. If we use something like a PJSS with ADPS we can use the longarms skill, which we have MUCH more of.

Well my character has Heavy Weapons 1, but I figure I can be doing more than shooting when shipboard fights happen.

Indeed.

To prevent tailchasing, I'm going to throw you all some OOC hints, doing my best to not reveal key plot details. You've wondered what a Voice of God post looks like: This is it.

---
Your employer has a navy. If they had wanted to get some beatdowns going...They would use it.

My intent for the campaign is subtlety. You will get your chances to whip out the toys, believe me.

But you want to blend in. You are not a warfighting asset, though tensions ICly are high. Explosively so.

You are an intelligence-gathering asset primarily, commerce raiding a very close secondarily, stand-up fighting last of all.

The fact that you'll get to raid ships and be all pirate-y is to your employer a bonus.

It's how you'll make your money, but it is not necessarily the objective of the operation.
---

So don't think like a warship. Think like a spy. Think like...Privateers.

I have a suggestion on the turrets: why not use Smart Firing Platforms (SR4, pg. 311) equipped with L/MMGs and/or Rifles with APDS ammo (or whatever). My character is built as an armorer/advanced marksman and has a datajack... he can wire the platforms into his datajack and give them orders as needed. If we upgrade their pilot and autosoft they can provide some serious fire support.

I don't think we were really planning on becoming a WarShip (not with a Classique anyway). But rather for the inevitable confrontation. Do we expect these naval patrols to have magic support? Otherwise, give my character some warning and we can go all "These are not the droids you're looking for" against the run-of-the-mill guys.

Defensively speaking, we can probably get away with Concealed Armour. It's restricted but we can forge a license for that, no?

ECM's Forbidden, but a necessity. Also, if we can get a license for a Missile Defense System (requiring an Improved Sensor Array) we can pass off the guns as a defensive measure. But again that may just be much ado about nothing, the trick is not getting shot at I know. But it's nice to have something for when you do get shot at.

Weapon mounts get big and pricey fast. Might not actually be worth it, come to think about it.

Drone Racks would probably be a necessity. How many of our guys are rigging? Even if we only have one they can be useful.

Also, do we have a refrigerated storage bay? Might be useful, even if it's just for our own use.

How about a submersible Classique? That Cutlass' Level 2 Life Support seems to be way too pricey, I have it at Body x 2000, and the Cutlass has a body of 16, so 32000. Ballast Tanks L1 should cost the same.

Slightly pricier on a Classique... give me a moment or three.

Apperances, as mentioned... The surface arm of the navy wanting to get one over on the submarine arm, or it was proposed by a contractor who had family ties with Congress that let it get a limited production run. It's an eccentric idea, and deliberately so. The GM could put some limitations on the submersible capacity... it probably leaks, for starters.

As far as combat. the cannon would be useful for warning shots on unarmed craft... a cannon fired across the bow will make a much, much bigger impression than a spray of machinegun fire, and missiles are expensive to waste like that.

Vis a vis taking a yacht as the ship, it could have the cover (and even day job?) as a charter fishing boat. People sitting on the deck not doing much wouldn't attract any attention on one those, and the rocket launcher/LMG level of weapons, easily concealed in smuggling compartments, would be pretty efficient and genre appropriate.

Okay guys, consider this heavily modified Classique III.



Total: 417775 :nuyen: 23/24 mod slots

That uses up almost all 24 mod slots. Yes, it's pricey. We can trim the costs here and there (ECM 10 anyone?) but I think it's worth the price. Also, I don't think SatCom is going to be that big a deal, we get portable satlinks for our commlinks.

Here's a thought... instead of "submersible ship" what about a Cutlass with Hydrofoils to start with? That'd give it incredible speed, 120 on the water... They'd be below the water when not in use, so it'd look like any other broken down surplus hull, but it was actually a limited-production surprise pursuit vehicle. There was a ship like that in the GI Joe comic, an unassuming freighter with some extras like hydrofoils and a phalanx.

A leaking submersible is a submersible that doesn't come back up. Just a thought.

Meanwhile, the yacht as charter is an idea that makes your GM smile.

Marwynn: I don't want my yacht to be submersible, that may just be me tho. The cost is stupid high and the benefit is not. Sure we can hide beneath the seas when everything goes south, but i'd rather handle the foe and flee at maximum speed then sink and run off.

But, if others like the 100k sinking ship idea, you included the luxury cost in the cost of your classique, GM said we can take that out and get 10K back. I would also recommend we also pick up signiture masking at at least 4. Which means we need to dump a few mods. I'm not sure that smoke projector is worth squat. It only is a 30 meter radius after a full round and if its windy it goes away in no time. Stick a smoke projector on a zodiac and i am with you. On our big old base ship, I don't think so. I kind of think the same for the search light. It looks weird to have that on a yacht. You could use the cover of late night deep sea fishing...but it seems something we could easily get rid of. Also, I believe VoG told us that we only need one smuggling compartment upgrade and its assumed to be a few seperate hiding places.

Knight: Has the GM ruled that we could all fit comfortably on a Cutlass? If so, I could support the hydrofoil plan, but we'd need some really stellar fake permits to start getting away with having some of that stuff. What is the cost without sinking and with some hyrofoils and boost capacity.

MusicMan: I don't think we really need a weapon mount either, I don't see it as necessary. Smart firing platforms seem a cheap solution. What about throwing a fixed firing mount on a zodiac? Then we can still fire warning shots, possibly remotely with a rigger from an empty zodiac boat.

After tweaking my ship design: take my post upthread and:
- subtract nitrous injection and the second smuggling compartment
- add concealed armor 20
- add Signature Masking 4
- add chameleon coating
This brings the mod slots up 21, and the total cost to 305.85K. The main thing that it is missing that I could still fit into my design is a drone rack. There is not enough space left for a weapon mount with the current mod list. However, my option is so far the cheapest, which gives us wiggle room on smaller, secondary vehicles with things like smoke projectors, weapons, and other crazy upgrades.

I'm going to do something I'd promised myself I wouldn't do...Basically throw you guys my ideas, totally unstatted but my ideas, on the ship I would have imposed on you had you really come up with nothing.

This is explicitly NOT a Voice of God post. Rather, it's a suggestion. I want it to be debated and argued with.
---

First, start with the Classique, just for argument's sake. It takes handwaving until you consider that when the other group did it, starting as you guys did by stripping out the luxury accommodations, they actually got a huge whack of space. I'm going to presume the Classique III seen in Arsenal is bigger than the Classique seen in R3, ok? The 1 person per 2 body rule is a rule of thumb at best. I would be flexible with it, especially if you're downgrading quarters. (It actually looks to my eyes more like a patrol boat than a yacht when you look at the pic. Hey, I'm blind, but it does.)

Second: Actually consider: Dwarves and Trolls would fit very badly aboard a ship. Not everything can be modified to fit them, including essential systems...And with trolls, the cramped conditions of most ships come even more into evidence.

Third: Go with a new-build. ICly, your employer would be generous and give you guys only the best to start with (it is in his interests to see the mission succeed after all), in exchange for your services. Even a new ship can have character...Especially one as heavily modded as you'll inevitably turn it out to be before the sucker even gets delivered. If you -want- to go with a used build, I reserve the right to impose flaws.

Fourth: Work up a story, then pick a ship that works with the story.

This was the mistake I made with chargen - resulting in Budoka's getting through a military enlistment with no firearms skills, something that is less his fault than my fault for not catching. I didn't make it explicit.

In my view of any RP environment, you write the background...then do the stats. Not all at once, not stats with a justifying story. Story, then stats. What's done is done, but when it comes to future characters and this ship, we're going to do it right. I've never hidden that I'm learning as I go, and I thank you all for putting up with that process.

Fifth: Think surprise. You can actually arm your ship...But hey, I suggest the weapons be on concealable mountings.

Coast Guard tends to freak out when anybody but them is armed, after all.

Sixth: About the only activities your employer will ban you from doing is attacking his ships....and engaging in the slave trade. The latter, you will understand why when you figure out who it is, he will persecute with extreme prejudice. (Not that I'm banning you OOCly from that rioute, but it would come with heavy IC consequences.)

Finally, as this post is huge: Let me re-emphasize: story, then stats. A limited production ship is unlikely to wind up in the hands of you guys, it'd be parked in a secret museum. (Yes, there are such things.) Subtlety, not stand-up fighting.

Some actual Voice of God stuff:

Characters - until play starts, you get a one-time opportunity to withdraw your posted character and change it. Not change it wholesale, but to flesh out the background, fiddle with the sheet, whatever, for whatever reason. Call it GM learning credit. Talk to me if you want to do this. Again, you may only do this once, and only until play starts.

MusicMan is essentially my go-to guy on military sheets - making sure I don't miss anything stupid. I make the final calls, but I mention this to make a broader point: if you have specialist knowledge, I'm willing to listen if contacted privately. I'm a setting geek, not a rules geek. In the real world, I'm a gimpy...geek. I used to be rated as "above-average" intelligence as a kid, not Mensa but enough for gifted programs...not sure how much that holds true now, but my spectrum of interests remains wide; I know a little about a lot. I use that base of knowledge liberally here.

CollateralDynamo wins 2 karma for doing yeoman's work keeping the numbers straight. This is karma to be spent later...and it's his job to remember he earned it.

Knight Saber: I have your background and sheet. I'm going over it with a fine-toothed comb, in part because you took a while to get it to me and I have the time to go over it. *shrugs* Not your fault, but the slower you are, the more I notice.

Ship stuff, I'm going to let you guys keep arguing on til you come to a consensus. When I see things turning into tailchasing, I'll speak up. Similar if I think you're misinterpreting the setting.

I'd like, PMed, some suggestions as to posting format and such. I'm not a very visual person, unsurprisingly, so help in making IC posts look good but be readable is welcome. If there's a dumpshock standard, please tell me.

Thanks for the direction GM, I think one of the problems we are having with putting a real story behind our boat now is we are unsure what its going to be doing a few in-game months down the line. We have vague concepts, but who knows which way it will go.

That said, I'm already seeing stories emerge from the four different vehicles we have proposed, here are some concepts that I already see:

Marwynn's Submersible Yacht: A yacht that is submersible is not difficult to believe in the least. Originally it was created to give those rich kids a chance to go down beneath the surface and wave at their wealthy friends snorkling in the reefs. In the end though, it was bigger and better yachts that stole the hearts of the Tad's and Trixie's that wanted to spend their parents money and the boat model was abandoned...for a time. Eventually the model of boat fell into the hands of a different type of user. It still runs cover with the chameleon coating showing itself off as any one of dozens of high-rate tourist companies. But now it a few less then legitimate mods to cause confusion and escape if necessary.

Knight's Submersible Cutlass: A small group within the navy has been looking into the capability of underwater surveillance/gun class vessels. In the end it was still not the most profitable program and the early versions of the vessel were sold off at private auction to cover expenses. Only the most prestigious of collectors even know of the project, let alone how many of these vessels were sold to private interests. But one found their way to the ports of Miami, and Mr. J thinks it might just be the thing we need.

Knight's High Speed Cutlass: The seas are lawless, but the Coast Guard of the CAS and UCAS do their best, not to mention the Cuban Nationals. Smugglers are always trying to outrun blockades, so this "Smuggler Buster" vehicle design is fairly common in the Carib. Its never sold to private interests before being demilled, but with a few connections and money in the right hands, you can find a weak link. As long as you are broadcasting a believable Fake SIN as a Navy man, you can usually get away with the illicit gear..assuming nobody looks too close...and assuming you are in the right nation's waters.

CollateralDynamo's Fortress Yacht: The wealthy love to spend their money. On top of this, the wealthy love to be kept safe. This vessel was originally contracted by a wealthy (but paranoid) industrialist working out of Miami. Unfortunately, the boat took too long in construction and, by the time it was finished, the original buyer was taking a long dirt nap. His loss, however, is the Shadow's gain. A few calls to the right people put this custom designed and highly defensible ship into our very capable and loving hands.

These are just rough thoughts and I don't want to step on the toes of anyone making their ships if you have your own story for them that you've yet to share. I'm just attempting to illustrate the different ways our ships could appear, fall into our hands, and to a lesser extent, how we could play them off while we own them. Thoughts?

Ahh my bad, yes 10k out and perhaps a whole slew of extra space (RP-wise for the tall amongst us).

We can dump the Smoke Projector, the second Smuggling Compartment, and Searchlight though. Signature Masking I didn't put in because of this part "moderate reshaping of the vehicle's exterior in order to scatter signals". It might be harder to pass ourselves of as some sort of private charter or contractor or whatever our excuse is if the yacht doesn't look quite right.

I did have a story for this, the ship itself being a rich man's private sub-yacht. Purchased from Harland and Wolff as one of their more elite models. It's not so much unique as it is rare, something for the slightly higher-up executives to show off. Ours would have been taken when the owner was abducted or "extracted" in a previous run. Some of the team may even have been present for that run. The ship was declared lost, but it's been reregistered as another vessel.

Our updates would've been done later. Stripping away the luxury stuff, packing in all that gear... Even Chameleon coating can be explained away as coming standard, to look cool and trendy.

Do we need a Rigger Cocoon?

By my calculations, without the Smoke Projector, second Compartment, and Searchlight, and no Luxury amenities the Submersible Classique III (or the Classique III Elite?) is 399875 .

Just a quick thing to make the history geeks among us smile as you all consider your maritime options.

No VOG here...Just something my mind tripped over.

H&W is a real company. For SR purposes, unless someone can point to canon that says different, I'm guessing it remains independent.

Without looking it up, tell me one ship they built IRL.

Well even without knowing what it is I can guess.

Damn, you nailed it in one.

So basically, there is no way we could be the LEAST successful H&W venture. Excellent.

Well we can sink while in drydock... Ironic that they'd build ships now that are meant to sink.

Also, one weapon turret of some kind would probably be necessary. But before we get there, what is our excuse? I mean what are we passing ourselves off as first and foremost? That lets us design within some parameters. Are we a private yacht? Some corp executive's ride? Charter and hired guards? Explorers?

That dictates what we might be able to get away with if they board us for an inspection.

Okay, almost all of our characters so far are ex-military. So we should try to use that to our advantage. We should also start getting a vote together on exactly which ship it is we are going to be running with. I note that most other PCs have backed out on our boat discussions, so I hope they'll come back and give us a vote. I see our basic options as:
Submersible Yacht
Secure Yacht
Submersible Cutter
Speed Cutter

My first vote is for the secure yacht, my second for the speed cutter.

With the speed cutter we would need fake permits all over the place. But our cover story could fall into place easily enough. We could pose as a mercenary team hired by a government (much like present day's Blackwater or other private company). Surely these type of companies exist out in the Carib as piracy is all over the place and private companies as well as governments will be looking to protect their interests. So with that all we need is documents that can handle inspection and the ability to con our way past patrols. That said, every time we run into a patrol boat we will probably be pulled over and have to go through the whole rigmarole, which is why it is my second choice and not my first.

For my first vote with the Secure yacht, i see this sort of style as being super common. I admit, with Signature masking our cover would be a little blown. So I can replace that with a concealed weapon mount, since people really seem to want it. If we get permits on it everything might be ok. Our cover then becomes either a) we are on our way to pick up are rich guy, we are his security detail and crew. or b) we already have our rich guy (I am a pretty damn convincing liar) and you are my security and crew. Thus knight remains in captain duty of the crew, and I play the role of silly rich guy and keep others busy. The gun is "just in case of any nasty pirate business".

Of course, for this to work we will again need plenty of permits. And I'll need a new fake SIN to play the role of "Rich Guy X", but at least they won't be sniffing around any merc camps whose name we might be using. They'll just see us, get confused, and hopefully tell us to move along when our documents check out.

I've been on the side of a secure yacht the entire time.

We can turn signature masking on and off as we need it.

Also, you might want to check... I remember that Chameleon Coating was not compatible with a few things, I know it's not compatible with smart armour; I don't remember if concealed armor was included in that.

I think we should just make our cover that we are freelancers who contract with corporate parties and rich kids' birthdays...

Haha, rich kids b-days!? I like it.

And you can turn the electrical component of sig masking on and off, but there is an outward modification of your vessel to make your ship less detectable in general which would always be active. We could try to say that its just post modern art (the kids love us), but it would be a GM call if we could get away with it.

Chameleon coating works with concealed armor, it does not work with smart armor, sun link, or...something else.

Chsmeleon coating, if I'm reading the desc on Arsenal pg 134 right, isn't compatible with smart armor, but that says nothin about concealed armor.

Please note though that it only coats the hull. Not, say, anything sticking out of the hull.

I'm going to rule that the masking of sig masking, insofar as it involves changes to the exterior of a ship, mostly involves things like changing angles to reduce radar return. Mostly, you can pass it off as cosmetic changes. It is the Carib after all.

The "something else" you think of is reflective hull.

I looked back at CD's Secure Yacht and added a few things.

Armed Secure Yacht


Total: 324375

Now that Weapon Mount is tricky. It can only hold an LMG but it is fully concealed and has a 360 by 90 field of fire.

The alternative is to squeeze in Signature Masking instead, which is 6 slots instead of 7 but is 1500 more for rating 6. I do believe that may come in handier than a rotating LMG.

Masked Secure Yacht


Total: 325875


Note: The Drone Rack is able to catch any small or medium drones for immediate retrieval. We have ECM 6 and Signature Masking which are Forbidden (or Weapon Mount).

Also, the Smuggling Compartment is doubly shielded: they're airtight so they won't get wet or get sniffed, they're also wifi shielded meaning radar scanners and the like can't peek through them.

The "Masked Secure Yacht" looks good to me.

Masked Secure gets my vote as well.

With the extra money we can buy up a few hand held rocket launchers and hide them in a compartment. Also we have plenty of cash to trick out our zodiacs and maybe even pick up some drones for the rigger on the company tab.

1. Do we have a rigger?
2. Who is going to drive the boats of doom?

Ears said he was rolling a rigger/hacker for us, haven't seen him in awhile. As for driving a zodiac, NOT IT!

I'll roll-up a rigger to replace my character with... just in case.

Of the list, who's still with us?

Okay...It looks like we have a consensus forming? around the "Masked Secure Yacht".

This is good.
---
Who's characters I have:

Approved and posted
Milk ducks - Albatross - Ork Adrenaline Junky
MusicMan - George - Human ex-Greek Marine
CollateralDynamo - Zalermo - Human face
Budoka05 - Kojiro - Elven Adept

Still in creation

Knight Saber - The Captain.
Marwynn - Mage
BaronKen - Medic/Cook

Neither hair nor hide (In other words, they've said they're in but I've seen nothing)

Whizbang
Ears

So I'd say we're at 7. We can handle a max of 10.

If you still want in, and you aren't on this list, please talk to me soon! Sooner the better!

If you're in the 'neither hair nor hide' category, please...Get SOMETHING to my PM box soon!

If you're Still In Creation, well, chances are things are moving along.

If you're approved but want to modify or withdraw a character - Talk to me. Nothing is final til play starts, then everything gets locked in.

Vis a vis a Rigger Cocoon, a Skinlink would be much, much more useful... It's a big ship, the Rigger could just go hide in the smuggling compartment if he's going to be away from his body, or anywhere else. The cocoon is more for, say, cars, where a passed-out driver is an obvious invitation to put a bullet in his head.

Weapon-wise, a concealed below-the-waterline torpedo launcher might be the way to go... very difficult to see, great for surprise attacks in tense situations and not something we could use to shoot out with everyone who looks at us cross-eyed. Other combat duties could be handled with man-portable heavy weapons, on pintel mounts that double as fishing rod holders.

The secure yacht is a good notion. Perhaps rather than having it as a shiny, modern boat, it can have a dirty, run down exterior and be part of a "Shadowrunner Fantasy Tour" for rich young people... Shadowrunning is very big in the media, after all... TV shows and games glamorize it.

It'd be like a baseball fantasy camp, taking people on a "tour" that includes a simulated run, letting them fire off guns with blanks as they "steal" data from a beachhouse (And maybe "save" some women in the house to take them back to the boat). Thus, any time we were spotted doing real 'run activity, it could be written off as another tour.

I really like the Shadowrun Fantasy Tour idea... It also makes sense as to why teh crew would be a bunch of ex-military types.

Shadowrun fantasy tour!?!? After reading corporate enclaves I really LOVE that concept.

The Masked Secure Yacht can squeeze in a Skinlink for an extra 5000 and eat up the last mod slot. Unless Penta allows for over-modding we're outta slots.

I like that idea. A Reality Trid show...

Instead of a rigger cocoon or somesuch, why not have a workstation so our rigger and/or armorer can have a space to do stuff?