There was the apology email with $10 store credit voucher sent out to preorder holders at the end of last August, so it's not exactly correct to say they haven't communicated with the customerbase. If you want to say they haven't communicated enough, I could certainly see that as a fair assesment, but to say that they just haven't communicated at all doesn't reflect the facts.

At least you get answers... My Emails to Battleshop remain unanswered...

Oh, I never once got an answer from Battleshop. Not once. To get my address updated I had to email Adam (prior to his departure) and he got me to Troy (also prior to his departure). In fact, I still have open, unanswered trouble tickets on file with them about my address change.

I was referring to the email I got after the notification that my LE was being processed. That email said if I had any questions to respond so i did; a couple of times until I finally got a response. That response was from Tara Bills and her personal email address; suggesting that she was the one processing the orders.

The last few comments underline some of the reason why Catalyst has been crap for a year, and what's happening now is just it all coming to a head...
...And why I'd so turned away from SR.

It's been broken for a long time, so I don't really care.

I did kind of care 13 months ago when I ordered, but the lack of communication, rubbish BattleCorps, money grubbing, badly proofed SR v4, etc = no more biz from me.

the only explanation I see is that CGL/CGL's distributor shipped the copies for wholesalers pretty early - especially when you consider that some people in Germany got their LE two days ago. I dunno, but I'm guessing that the LEs weren't sent via air mail (which would probably be very expensive) but via ship, which means they must have been shipped at least two weeks ago.
I am not complaining about that, since I am one of the people who actually benefited from that situation, but for the sake of the satisfaction of customers buying directly at CGL it would have been better to process their orders before those of the wholesalers.

just my two cents

I used that credit to buy a set of SR dice which BattleShop said was "In Stock" after 3-4 months wait time I was told, oh whoops, sorry bout that we forgot to update our inventory. But we have these other newer cooler dice. So agreed to them, AND THEN was told, oh whoops sorry bout that we don't have them yet, but they'll be here some day...

Don't know why I expected anthing else. So, yea about that store credit, it's worth everthing it's printed on.

Mark

Did everyone really get one of these?

I did not get such an email.

I've got one in my email. I was saving it for a rainy day though. Not sure if it would still be valid now.

From an insider's POV:

Generally, a publisher gives a street date to their distributors, who then ensure all the retail stores can receive the item at the same time. Distributors give the street date to retailers, and for the most part in my experience, retailers are very good about adhering to that street date. Honor among stores and whatnot (so every store has the same sales opportunity as every other store).

The general distributor would normally send all the books on the same date, so Battleshop would receive theirs at the same time as the other distributors - and that gives Battleshop a week, generally two, to pre-package everything so all the books ship on the street date (this is how I always saw Troy Garner, the Battleshop shipping fellow, do things). The stores receive theirs in time to put their books on the shelf on the street date, too. So pre-orders ship on the street date, and stores can sell on the street date. That way it ensures a retail shop isn't being hurt by direct pre-sales, which can damage relationships between a retailer and the book seller, since it if presales arrive prior to books on store shelves, you (hypothetically) encourage customers to abandon their FLGS. (And in my experience, most RPG publishers want to encourage the health of the FLGS because of the far-reaching benefits to the gaming community in total, vs the short-term benefit of higher direct sales.)

Since I see that CGL posted a May 3rd street date, and then retailers started selling books on April 27th, my only guess would be that two separate street dates were given. (Not a happy situation and not one that happens in a professional environment.)

Of course that store credit won't be useful for anything unless its to discount another purchase. The "I'm Sorry" credit is really more of a "Give us more of your money" ploy. I honestly would have been a LOT happier if in August I got an email saying, "We are sorry, here's why this version of a book that is already on shelves was delayed, here's how things have been fixed, and here's a timeline of when you can expect it." Instead, I got "give us more of your money, and wait another 6 months to hear anything." As a customer, I'm not bought off with a coupon. In fact, I'm insulted by it. Communication should have been the key, but that's not CGL policy.



I understand the need for FLGS and the reason a company doesn't want to piss them off by stepping on their feet with pre-orders. In fact, except for a book like the LE, I always buy from one of my FLGS for that very reason. I'm lucky enough to live in Sacramento where I have options when it comes to which FLGS I want to shop with. Considering that some of these stores are as bad as the stereotype comic/games store gets, it says something that they are more organized than CGL.

Hm. Well, as I've never once received any e-mail from Battlecorps for any of my purchases, address updates, or any of that.. this kind of bums me. I would've bought a print copy of Battlerun.

After doing a board search, I found this post from Adam:

By that description, I shouldn't have gotten one, because my only outstanding pre-order at the time was the SR4A-LE, which did not have a street date. Since this was apparently unrelated, and the one I got was by accident, I take back what I said upthread.

Worked fine for me.

Or the May 3rd street date was not given by the publisher, or there was actually no street date for retailers.

That I can verify easily. I'll go to my not so friendly LGS and ask them.


(Edited to redact speculation. It does me no good)

"Street Date" is misleading a bit.

For gaming products, 99% of the time, Street Date simply means "The date at which the product should be readily available in many, if not all gaming stores". Often, this date is based solely on when the publisher and distributor estimate that the book will reach gaming shops. There are exceptions to this, but usually only on really large, big name releases.

The only ones I can think of in recent years were D&D 4th and White Wolf's new World of Darkness edition a few years back. In both cases, because demand was so high for he new books, product was shipped a couple weeks in advance so that stores could be assured to have plenty of stock on hand, and to be able to set up displays, arrange in store demos, and the like. In both of those cases, however, many stores broke the "street date" and were selling it early. White Wolf didn't really care, so far as I know. WotC wasn't happy, but didn't pursue the matter, because it's not a good idea to try and shut down or cut off your supply chain, when the market is so narrow.

With other larger mass media, mainly movies and music (and sometimes games), they do hold to a firm street date, which is why the confusion comes in. In these cases, the stores cannot sell the item in advance, or they risk sanctions from the companies producing the material. (I worked for a bunch of years at a Suncoast dealing with movies, and for a couple years at a Gamestop doing video games, so I know the retail side of these, at least).

Anyway, long story short, there is no hard "Street Date" for RPG material. There's no "You'll get it on this date and not before" mandate. The Street Date is just there so that we, as consumers, have some idea of when we can expect to be able to go up to our local gaming shop and pick the book up.

Bull

Or, go into the local gaming shop to look at the book we bought over a year ago.

Hey, I'm not defending the lateness of the book. Only clarifying the Street Date situation, to the best of my knowledge (Which is also not an insiders perspective either).

Trust me, I've been mostly unemployed for the last year, and that $80 I dropped on March 11th last year could have been useful elsewhere.

Bull

It wasn't meant as a dig at you. Just the absurdity of the situation. Last year, my total game budge wound up being around $125 for the entire year, so I understand what you are saying. That was a big part of it, yet I've got nothing to show for it.

When the news hit, I linked the announcement in emails to the SR groups of which I am a member.

Not a week goes by without some sort of complaint related to me forcing them to buy the book. Perhaps I would even go so far as to be anti CGL like some but... After buying the newer Battletech books, I am a convert.

If they can move Shadowrun books from this nightmare, to something as beautiful and well edited as Masters and Minions or A Time of War... they can have my entire paper gaming budget each year.

BlueMax

No, it's not. Conflating "Release Date" and "Street Date" as you have done is what confuses and misleads people. With the small number of distributors in the gaming industry, it's perfectly possible to have Street Dates to gaming stores.

Again, I'm paying a premium for inferior service. Businesses go under on just such a plan.

Christ I'd be okay if someone came out and said "you'll get your book by the 10th". I could live with that. Sort of. Fact of the matter is, aside from Jason, who has about as much say in this as a fart in the wind, we ain't hearing dick from the company.

Rational, logical thought would dictate that ordering directly from the company should get you a product in as timely a manner as going to the local gaming shop. The only solace I have is that if my LGS actually had the book, it'd be opened, read through, scuffed, the spine would be broken, it would be smeared with greasy potato chip fingerprints, and then sold for 120 dollars.

And guess what? For that premium and inferior service, they're barely managing to stay in business. What a surprise.

Got mine... Used it for a few PDF's last week...

Keep the Faith

Ahh, my apologies. You're right. I did. Like I said, I was judging it based on what I knew from the two retail outlets I worked at that did deal with strict Street Dates for merchandise, and generally speaking, Release Dates and Street Dates are interchangeable in that area. Both terms are used to mean the same thing. I've also heard both terms used by the guys at my local game store. And again, they just drop things on the shelf pretty much as soon as Diamond or Alliance or whoever ships them in.

And I do agree it's possible, just not saying it's done very often, nor that most game stores bother to adhere to it. I know my game store back home start handing out pre-ordered copies of D&D4 and World of Darkness as soon as they came in, which was a week or better before they were supposed to be available, and I remember seeing one bookstore and hearing about at least one more in Indy that were selling the WoD book several days before it's release at Gen Con.

So I guess where's this lie then? If CGL (or any game company) sets a Release Date, or Street Date, or what have you, is it on the stores to not sell before then? Are they even told about this? Or is it on the Distributor? Or is it on the Game Company itself?

Bull

Seeing as my question about 'Vice' was never answered, can anyone point me to an email address to have it removed from my order, so at least I have even a slight chance of actually receiving my LE?

Edit: Emailed quartermaster, but I know that won't go anywhere, any other suggestions?

Whats the point of 'pre-ordering' if your not going to get it before its released at the 'FLGS'?

You mays well buy the bloody book from the FLGS and get them to pay the ridiculous shipping prices and make some profit for themselves. You also pay the same price, and get it before everyone else. Wheres the logic in that?

Edit: spelling

Here's the major difference between hobby games and movies, video games and music releases, and why Street Date and Release Date are interchangeable in them: movie, video games and music all have a mandated release day: Tuesday. Comics are the same way -- new comics come in on Wednesday, because so much of the comic market is served by Diamond. If you try to release media on a day other than those, you'll fail: the businesses down the stream won't want to deal with your odd practices, and the customers are totally trained to show up on a certain day of the week anyway. Your "new" comic will be old by the time people come on Wednesday to check out the new stuff.

If the hobby game trade would agree to release new titles -- print and electronic -- on only a certain day of the week, things would be a lot better off to begin with. For starters, they would only be 4/5 "New Release Days" per month, so street dates would be easier to track. It would drive fans to the store on a specific day, and encourage multiple purchases at the same time, among other business benefits.

(I'm not interested in debating WHICH day of the week would be best ... that's very complicated.)



One of the problems is that chain stores often break street dates on titles they consider minor -- like RPG titles -- and when a local chain store breaks the street date, the local game stores typically do the same, to be competitive. I haven't heard of a chain store breaking a D&D street date within at least the last six months, though, so hopefully that's improving.

Look at the way that Comic Book Wednesday fosters community: not only do comic fans buy their new-and-familiar issues on Wednesday, but they congregate at the store and talk about comics, AND they check out new ones, because it's drop-dead easy to figure out what's new each week.

It would be pretty nice if, the week a new Eclipse Phase book came out, all the local gamers that are into EP hit the local store, grabbed a copy, and chatted a bit. Look at how well the Magic: the Gathering pre-release and release events bring people into a store and socializing/gaming/trading with people they otherwise wouldn't know! WotC is doing the same thing with Wednesdays, with their Dungeon Delve events. Wednesday is already turning into the day to hit your FLGS to play D&D, look at new stuff, talk about the game, and network for new groups -- and the Wednesday Dungeon Delve events are only a few months old.



The game company tells the distributors what the street date is. The distributors ship books to the game store, with a clear manifest indicating what the street dates for each are (if there was a New Release Day each week, this would be even easier). The game store reads the manifest and puts things out on the appropriate date. That -- along with each tier marketing appropriately to their customer base -- should be how things work.

I cannot speak for what happened with the SR4LE "Street Date" and why it doesn't seem to have worked out as expected. Typically, Catalyst has done well with communicating their Street Dates to distributors/stores, as best as I know.

THere are two reasons to pre-order.

The first is a self-serving reason, and that's to guarantee you get a copy when it releases. This is especially important with something like a Limited Edition of a gaming product, since there are only so many copies made. THis is why I pre-ordered the LE. There is no guarantee that a gaming store is even going to get a copy, even if they order one from the distributor, because there may just not be enough supply to meet the demand. (This is also why I pre-order things like the Warcraft Expansion Collectors Editions).

The second is supporting a store or company. Pre-Orders help the company gauge their potential sales and order accordingly. This is why I used to regularly pre-order games from Gamestop, like Halo or Fallout 3. In these cases, I wasn't concerned about availability, but I used to work at the Gamestop I pre-ordered from, and was friends with the guys there. Pre-Orders were something the company tracked, so it helped them. ANd on a smaller level, this was the same reason i had a pull-bin with my local comic shop, and why I would usually tell him about new products that I planned to buy before they came out, so that he knew to order accordingly, because he had a sale, And on a smaller scale like that, it helps the shops a lot if they can get a semi-accurate gauge as to what they will sell.

Now, I will point out that in both the latter examples, I didn't actually pay for the products in advance. At the FLGS, I didn't pay anything till product came in. At Gamestop, I usually just put down a $5 or $10 deposit, unless I had the extra $$ and just wanted to pay off the order ahead of time, but that was my choice.

And, well, even in the world of big name Video Games and such, Pre-Ordering only gets you so far. For example, I preordered Starcraft Ghost for the X-Box at one point, and that turned into Vaporware after going through two different game companies. I have a buddy who still has a Funcoland Pre-Order Receipt for Duke Nukem Forever from 2000 or so.

Also, Pre-Ordering online almost never gets you the merchandise any faster. If I pre-order Warcraft Cataclysm, the next World of Warcraft expansion, from Gamestop, or even Amazon, unless I pay through the nose for same day shipping, I won't have the item until late the day of Release, because they won't even mail a copy of the game until the release date.

Another thought too.. Pre-ordering a game or system at Game Stop didn't even guarantee you a copy on release day. It was rare for games, but occasionally with games that we'd get enough orders for, we wqould actually run out and have to wait a day or two to get resupplied before filling teh remainder of the pre-orders. Those were generally First Come, first serve. Even if you were the first person to order one, if they got 200 copies and you were person 201 to show up with a receipt, you got shafted.

And lets not talk about Gaming Systems. Every time a new generation of game system comes out, there's a wait list 6 months long. At least with those we tried to sell more or less in order of who pre-ordered earliest.

I'm not trying to defend all of CGL's Mail Order business here. Obviously this was bgungled, badly. And apparently their mail service uses diamond studded jet planes to make deliveries, because their shipping prices are ridiculous. But, at the end of the day, the only thing the preorder does is guarantee that you will get a copy mailed to you at some point. Nothing else.

Bull

Man, that would be cool. Shame it doesn't happen

I know for games, the store I used to use usually got two shipments a week. One on Monday, one on Friday, from Alliance. They also had another company they ordered from semi-frequently that would usually ship on Fridays as well. But taht wasn't a guaranteed thing. Sometimes they'd show up on Thursday instead.

That's something RPGs are losing some of, the real life community, assuming there ever really was one to begin with. I've alwasy been lucky enough that the game stores I shopped at were friendly enough that they didn't mind you hanging around and talking, though none of them ever had actual gaming areas. I understand they're a pain and increase your overhead, but every game store IU've ever seen that does have something like that always seems to really help boost it's local gaming community, and helps foster sales a good deal.

Ahh, anyway, way off topic But thanks for answering.

Bull

The quartermaster address is the best one to use. You should get a response. And I understand that it would be good to have pre-orders first, but another purpose of them is to guarantee that you get a copy. With the small number of LEs that will be out there, that's not insignificant.

Jason H.

Considering the number of gaming stores, how many would have to be printed to make sure everyone who wanted the book actually got a copy? CGL can't know precisely where the books would go in order that the folks who want it will find it.

I mean, it's cool that you stumble upon a LE book in some out of the way used book store in a town with 400 people and one stop light. But it'd be better if everyone who wanted one would actually get it.

And I don't want to haunt my FLGS, or in my area, run from one to the other to see if I can snag a copy before someone else does.

So I pre-order to make sure I get a copy. That someone got theirs first isn't a big deal to me. Heck, I'm not going to be using the book so it's not like I can't play until I get my copy.

Carl

My problem is that I can no longer even find my order for the SR4A LE on my Battleshop account. I have verified that the money was spent and received by them via my PayPal account, but I cannot find the order on the site to verify any of my details.

Do you have your confirmation email?

This just keeps getting better and better...

One of the advantages of Weekly New Game Day would be -- if it were early in the week, such as Monday or Tuesday -- that Thursday/Friday restocks could arrive in time for the weekend, after initial sales/demand has been gauged.

I pre-ordered because I wanted to guarantee myself a copy. Who got theirs first isn't such an issue. However, the fact that CGL has had my money for over a YEAR, it is frustrating as things continue to be pushed out. The way that CGL handles their pre-orders is not efficient cost-wise, or customer service wise (at least not based on they way its been described to me). By purchasing the book directly I get no savings, and in fact pay more due to shipping costs. This is why I have only done so for the LE. Perhaps my sample size is too small for some to warrant my opinion, but when a company drops the ball like they have with the Crown Jewel of the gaming line, I don't have any faith that anything else will be handled better. Monday is the announced street date, my book has been "processing" for 8 days now, I hope that this means that my book arrives on street date. It is frustrating that a date was given that apparently is not being adhered to. Even if CGL's only role in the early sales was, "we waited a year to get this to our customers, we're not waiting another week," they are still the root of the problem.

By the way, I know there are a lot of people like you that are just buying it to shelve, and that's fine. But I will always be someone the buys a toy to play with; I've actually been waiting for this book for over a year so that I can play without using a PDF; and I know I'm not the only person. With the way they've treated me on this product there is no way they'd get me to pay for it twice by purchasing a non-LE copy.

Looks at quotes above, checks Street Date, looks at Calendar ( In Australia it is May 3 already ), looks at Battleshop Order Status. Still "Processing".

Not happy. What is going on?

Yeah ditto man, ditto.

IIRC, the "street date" is determined by when distributors can deliver the book to brick and mortar game stores. There are reports that some FLGSs already have them in stock, or should in short order.

Unfortunately it has no bearing on when Battlecorps will ship our copies.

Still no reply from quartermaster about getting Vice removed from my order

Edit: I mean in all seriouness, if they are ignoring me because they dont want to lose money by having the book removed from the order, if they can guarantee me that Vice will be released as a book again (which I doubt they can, as their license thing) I will PAY them the additional shipping fees to have it shipped at a later date. Even though I beleive I have paid enough in shipping fees.

If we're really lucky, they'll go out tomorrow.

At this point, I ain't holding my breath. Remember, the person responsible for shipping the books out is on vacation this past week.

'cuz that really engenders us to CGL.

1) The word you're looking for is endear. "Engender" means something very, very different and renders the sentence more than a little squicktastic.

2) The correct usage would be to say that it endears CGL to us, rather than the other way around.

Sorry, I normally manage to keep a rein on my grammar-Nazi tendencies, but sometimes I still slip. Plus, you know, "engender."

No; street dates in hobby gaming are set by the manufacturer. The distributors will, of course, tell them if it's impossible to fulfill that street date (not enough time to get the product in, break it down, pack it up again, and ship it to stores) and suggest a different one, or they'll suggest a different one if they think it's financially inefficient.

If the manufacturer doesn't set a street date, distributors typically ship stuff out as soon as they can. Product sitting in the warehouse is money not being made, and distributors make money by volume.

So has anyone posted a pic of their received copy of their LE, yet?

K.

I intend to as soon as it arrives. Probably four shots: Book and slipcase side-by-side, close-up of slipcase, close-up of book, close-up of copy number.

Dang, I just realized I set my LE for USPS shipping. Since I never got a notice that Running Wild was delivered and it got sent back before I found out it was on it's way, I'm not looking forward to the mess that the LE is going to be.

I'd thank Troy again for working out that issue for me, but well, you know.

pretty sure this is the big day, isn't it? you should know shortly whether or not CGL still has the license.

Thanks for the clarification Adam. So does the street date have any bearing on books shipped directly from Battlecorps?

It doesn't have the slightest bearing on what Catalyst/Battlecorps decides to do. You're silly for actually *expecting* that the company that makes Shadowrun could fill orders in a remotely timely manner.

If they were professional they'd at least get the books out in the mail today. However, I'm about as expectant about that as I am for wild monkeys to fly out of my butt. It's noon on the west coast and there's only a few more hours for mail to go out.

It's funny, you'd think they'd be all over getting this sh*t out in a timely manner to show customers they've gotten their act together. It really strikes me as one of the biggest indicators that the owners don't think Catalyst is going to be around much longer.

Oh, and further up thread, you're right, engendered wasn't the word I wanted, I had been talking while I was typing, which is always dangerous for me.

Well the Esdevium Catalogue for this week (usually arrives wednesday, but we've had a bank holiday so I'm expecting Thursday), has SR4LE in it.

click on the May 3rd document to see

Just in time for my birthday

Well, the mail has been delivered today without a box from Battlecorps and my copy of the SR4LE is still as elusive as the fabled North American yeti....

One of my buddies ordered next day delivery, or two day, wonder if his will be one of the first to ship out.

BlueMax