Of course the mechanics matter. Because the mechanics have a hand in the stories. The mechanics define how the world functions, they resolve the conflicts, which is what actually produces a story. Conflict + resolution = story. Perhaps it would be better put that there is more than one set of mechanics that can evoke the spirit of the 6th World. In the same way that 4e retained so much the spirit of 3e while seriously reworking the nuts and bolts of the mechanics.

But D&D 4e? Well it's built for different kind of world. It does have things going for it, such as being "team" orientated. But it's gridness, which is fairly integral, and a few other things aren't the best fit for SR ranges and such. There are more appropriate choices out there.

Midnight has a March 22nd Street Date. Of course, it'd be even nicer if I, or any of the other people who worked on it, were paid...

I think my biggest problem with D&D is how little skills matter.

If you have a 5-player group, with 1 player trained in Arcana, and everyone rolls for a check - chances are the character who actually knows something about it will be surpassed by another player practically every time.

Now, I like when in a game *sometimes* an untrained person can have a glimpse of insight, but in D&D it happens all the frakkin' time.



Also, classes. It seems to stifle all creativity when it comes to designing a character.

(Though I admit, that might just be most D&D players... )



I like my Level 4 Hybrid Wizard/Rogue with a level in Artificer who's a secret Changeling (showing herself as Human to the PCs - they have no idea)

The PDF is out for Midnight, yeah.

I pre-ordered it and the Limited Edition Rulebook for my birthday, and got the PDF immediately.

D&D 4e solves a -lot- of the problems that SR4 has. It might not be a perfect fit, but if it would result in a SR session where all the players sat down with characters that were of about the same level of competency and the GM had some sort of clue of exactly what they could or couldn't handle, it might be worth it. It might be a worse fit if melee didn't play such a large role in SR, but it does, so rules based off D&D 4e would work pretty well since they do melee and ranged.

Please continue all D&D 4E discussion's HERE, reserving the current thread for the CGL conversation.

Thanks!
-Redjack

understandably . .

Now, this is a genuine question, and not meant to be sarcastic, but when was the last time a freelancer received payment for their work on SR?

One presumes it has to happen fairly regularly.

You sure about that?
What do you know about the Payment Model?
Paid by Word? Paid by Paragraph? Paid by Chapter?
Seems as if the poor sods did not get any for quite some time now.
I think Frank complained about this even before he left dumpshock.
And Demon Eyes Elite followed soon after if i remember correctly.

FrankTrollman used the amount of $850,000, I find that oddly similar to the amount that was 'stolen' from Palladium. I'm not saying it isn't true, I'm not saying he is lying, I do have my doubts. CGL will not start yelling "The end is neigh!", that would cost them to much money in sales. Again, I'm not saying they're lying, it's just none of our business what goes on financially at IMRP LLC.

I would hate to see CGL go the way of the Dodo, they did some awesome work with the BattleTech property. Their work on Shadowrun has left me less then impressed, but they didn't start 4E SR (FanPro did). I'm not overly concerned with the rules changes, just the direction they took the SR world and the art, but maybe CGL produced some quality products (I just didn't see them). I'm mostly concerned for the financial repercussions for those who work at CGL when the future of their company and the licenses they use are in jeopardy. Same goes for the folks that haven't been payed yet for the work they did, while it's not OK to not get paid, it isn't exactly an unique prospect in the industry. I'm glad I learned that years ago before doing any freelance work (map illustrations, if Paradigm Concepts couldn't be bothered to send a contract in a timely fashion, how could you expect them to pay on time).

To be honest we'll see how thing end up in a month or 2-3 when the deadline for the license renewal passes. I hope for the folks over at CGL that they keep it. Three folks leaving might just indicate that they didn't like the consequences for the person who 'misplaced' funds, some of the SR/BT community have very... 'Outspoken' (not to mention extreme) ethics, I could imagine that they wanted more consequences then the offender got. Not everyone is as good with numbers as some, most folks (that complain) don't have to juggle more then a salary and some expenses, I can understand how an intermingling of personal assets and company assets could lead to big mistakes (no criminal mindedness required). But the co owners are just as guilty of not making sure that personal assets and company assets weren't split up long ago, I can understand it happening with a starting or really small company, but CGL is far from small anymore. Also keep in mind that the co-owner in question has friends and family, saying it is a criminal act and possibly claiming insurance, is going to have nasty consequences. Are you willing to destroy a friends live if he/she has promised to rectify the situation? To folks here the person in question is just a faceless corporate geek who did "WRONG!™" to (most) of the folks and owners at CGL it's a friend and/or co-worker. Folks on the internet are far to willing to crucify individuals (and companies) with little or no information, it's the internet mob mentality...

I've had run inns with (former) Moderators/Admins of Dumpshock, I wasn't the only one, so Bulldrek was created as an alternative board. Can't say I've had run inns with Bull, on the basis of that single 4E post Frank linked to, I think Bull overreacted. But, that's only one post, some of the SR community have a nasty ability to pull blood from under ones nails with seemingly ok postings, over time those piss off (some) people.

As for the property going to another company, I really hope not to an already existing one. Mongoose: Shudders! White Wolf/CCP: White Wolf has some serious skills with RPGs (although I don't like nWoD), since they're owned by CCP we were promised a pen and paper RPG for EVE, three years down the line still nothing, that bodes badly for SR/BT. WotC: Already dropped Star Wars as a brick and is starting to get TSR like qualities (producing a lot of books, were already at PHP #3 for 4e). Steve Jackson: Might be me, but I don't want SR/BT GURPS. Paizo: might be a good fit, is doing good things with Pathfinder (has a steady release schedule as far as I know). Red Brick has some nice licenses but the last time I checked their release schedule it was pretty bare. AEG has dropped most of it's RPG properties except L5R, doesn't have a great track record of supporting licensed sci-fi settings (FarScape, Stargate SG1). Crafty Games is probably to small to cough up the dough for the licenses and they don't have a great track record with releases. DP9 is having their own issues. FFG is out of the RPG business.

Hmm, question here:
how would saying this hurt sales exactly?
If people now tried to panick buy stuff that might become something people pay more for as a collectors item, it could actually help . .

Heres hoping they can get things worked out with payment. But as a fan I gotta say I'm really liking DotA and really looking forward to the second half and the setting book we've been teased with that concludes the series.

Well... Some might panic buy, most just wouldn't buy at all, preferring to watch what happens. Most gamers see their purchases as an investment and stop investing when their game has an unsure future. And it doesn't only affect gamers, stores and distributors also play a big role in book sales, those folks get spooked easily. And if Trollman has it at the right end of the stick, CGL is going to need all the money they can get.

The contracts are based on a paid-by-word model. I haven't been a freelancer for awhile now, so I have no idea what the payment schedule has been like aside from hearing some of the current freelancers grumble about non-payment.

I do know that it was very rare to actually get paid by the time the contract said you would be paid (typically "net payment 30 days after publication"). I think it maybe happened once to me, in all of my time writing for FASA, then FanPro, then CGL. And unfortunately, way too often getting paid meant having to badger the publisher, which shouldn't be necessary. I had to send many terse e-mails and often heard no reply back. And payment would not be the only delay, sometimes I would be expected to turn in final drafts before I had even signed a contract. Before I had even received a contract. Such a situation was what led to me backing out of work on the Manhattan e-book and ended my freelancing with CGL.

Catalyst is unfortunately behind on freelancer payments, but you'll have to forgive me if I don't want to disclose too much information. A lot of freelancers, though, have received at least some payment in this calendar year.

Jason H.

I bought Unwired, Arsenal and Augmentation yesterday.

Nothing against Jason, who I think has been dealt a craptacular hand by fate (and CGL), but he came in way late into the SoLA ship. Before that, we had the book's lead developer go completey AWOL (to protect his anonymity, I'm going to nickname him "Nosnek"), Synner jumping in to take the helm, and then (and only then), Jason giving a hand with the draft edits.

I've made it clear before, though, that I don't like seeing CGL products blatantly using stuff from SoLA without even so much as acknowledgement in the credits.

Of course, leave it to khadim to try and contradict other people by panicky buying stuff *snickers*

Folks on here aren't your average customers (as if that wasn't obvious , these are the hardcore players, not the casual gamers. Who might buy less individually, but make that up in large numbers.

Hi DI! A couple of questions:
1.) Does "net payment 30 days after publication" mean that they pay the whole amount after 30 days or only part? Any payment up front?
2.) I know that FASA and FanPro where bad with paying on time, was this also as bad at CGL?
3.) The contract not being send and signed before you start the job was something I encountered with Paradigm Concepts (and consequently refused to do the job), but did that happen often with CGL?
4.) Any experience with freelancing with other game companies (then mentioned above) and did they also have these issues?

I know that working on RPGs wasn't very profitable to begin with, very low compensation per word/illustration, but if the above is true most of the time for most of the freelance personnel (writers, illustrators, etc.) then it surprises me greatly that CGL has any freelancers. The stress would probably kill me...

We do it for love of the game. Management...not so much.

Coincidentally I just bought every single SR4 book that I didnt have... But this was 3 days before this annoucement.

So far, the only projects I did for CGL were 10 Jackpointers and CorpGuide. As the latter hasn't been released yet, I did not expect any payment anytime soon, anyway, and 10 JP was JUST released, so I had (and have) no worries there, too.

However, as a lot of bad things have been said about payment in the RPG industry in general, I want to give a counter-example:

I did some artwork for some kind of "Monster Manual" for Battlelords of the Twenty-Third Century RPG by SSDC (http://www.ssdc.com). The release date of that book has been shifted as the whole RPG is under review (the last new edition was what - 2001?). Much to my surprise I just received a paycheck for the work I did on the Manual so far WITHOUT ASKING FOR IT! How great is that??

Oh, and one thing about "missing payment" for the art on 10 Jackpointers: I actually initially DONATED that artwork (I was on the SR "insider forums" because I contributed on CorpGuide. There I learned about "that 10 JP PDF project" for which no art was planned (because, well, the payment for PDFs SUCK, BIG time!). Seeing that it would be a shame to have even a PDF without art I volunteered to donate my talents (yeah, I know: never do that!), until Brent (the Art Director of CGL) INSISTED(!!!) that I get SOME payment.

This doesn't mean or deny the fact that other freelancers have not been paid or MAY have been treated unfairly (I dunno, I'm still a n00b), this is just MY personal XP with CGL.

AAS

raben-aas: I really like your work. The girl in Jackpointer Art 02 looks exactly like an ex-girlfriend of mine. The resemblance is kinda creepy!

The whole amount is due 30 days after the piece is published. There is no payment up front.



I didn't freelance for CGL very long, so I'm not the best source there. In my experience, CGL wasn't as bad as FASA or FanPro, but CGL also did promise us out of the gate that they would not have the problems with contracts and payments that the previous two publishers had, which was part of the reason I kept writing for CGL even after being bitterly angry about how FanPro had treated the freelancers at the end. For instance, I was told that CGL had an Operations Manager (one of the recently resigned staff, actually) that would make sure late contracts were a thing of the past. It didn't work out that way.



Yes, even though we were told it wouldn't happen. I'm not sure if they got better at that after I stopped writing for them, one of the other freelancers would have to speak to that. In the case of the Manhattan e-book, CGL wanted final drafts before I had even seen the contract. I repeatedly e-mailed the Operations Manager for the contract and then eventually quit the project because I was not getting an answer. Of course, shortly after I quit the project, the contract showed up in my e-mail.



I haven't written for any other game companies, no. I've written for non-RPG outlets, though, and there's a world of difference.



Like AH said, we did it because we love the game. I still get ideas now and then that I would love to send in, or I see an upcoming book that I would love to be part of, but I don't let myself do it anymore, because it's just not worth the hassle.

I think its worth offering a big thanks to Jason Hardy for being on top of this problem and keeping the fans informed. I see he's been posting in several places over the last few days and is obviously doing his best to keep the Shadowrun line moving forward.

(Need to get release date for DotA 2 posted up on SR4 site still.)

I appreciate the note--and the reminder! I'll make sure it gets up there!

Jason H.

Yeah now would be the time to snap up all the CGL books that you can because they might be out of print if CGL goes under - which i see as unlikely but possible. I've been watching books on amazon steadily raise in price withe runners companion peaking at 250$ about 3 days ago. I'm a collector and I'm very proud of my collection that includes the full IK 3.5 line all Delta Green books in first edition (Countdown was a punch in the wallet at 300$) an regardless of the outcome of the financial crisis i plan on playing SR4 for some time to come and contributing to a open source online fan community if necessary to keep it alive.




I agree. It's nice to see employees get personally involved here on the forums to let us know what is going on.

Don't worry about dead trees, stock would still be around for a while.

But you could kiss the searchable, DRM- & watermark-free PDFs from BattleShop goodbye instantly. And while it is quite likely to see new prints with a new publisher, seeing PDFs again… not so much.

Not sure if I pointed this out up thread here or over at RPG.net but Crafty just announced Spycraft 3.0 so I really doubt they are interested in the SR license. They are also very small as you point out.

FFG is certainly not out of the RPG business. The big, awesome box of WFRP 3rd Edition that is sitting on my shelf would argue otherwise, along with the recent shipping of the Gamemaster's Toolkit as well as the announcement of a Deathwatch RPG to complement Dark Heresey and Rogue Trader.

Doh! I completely forgot FFGs WFRP, DH, and RT! I even have all of them sitting on a plank behind me. Let's call it a momentary lapse into being stupid, sorry. I'm not a great fan of WFRP 3rd Edition, I have it, but just not doing 'it' for me. But if the quality of DH and RT is any indication, they would deliver some great SR/BT products. On the other hand if WFRP is any indication, they release three books before they turn it into a board game...

Yes actually FFG would be a good fit. Especially since Battletech kind of falls into their wheel-house: board games. Picking up the license gives them a tried and tested Table-Top Miniatures game as well as Game Universe for an RPG. Shadowrun not so much but they'd do a good job of it. Plus I wouldn't mind seeing a full re-try of an SR miniatures game a la DMZ (wasn't a fan of that action figure game they put out a while back). Or maybe a re-try of the CCG.

I wonder how WFRP 3 is doing for FFG, I think that would determine if they go that route again. Thier RPGs have not been as successful as their board games but SJG said the same thing in the shareholder report. RPGs just don't sell like board games. After playing Desolation I'm tempted to try WFRP at a con, it made me realize custom dice are kinda cool.

I'm sorry. At this time, it looks as though I was incorrect in stating Midnight's street date, which has now moved to undetermined, I believe.

Tease...

Oh man. If things do go all the way south, I hope this leads to a massive PDF release rush.

Is there a reason they wouldn't go all fire sale on us if it really was the end of days? There seems to be a bit of talk about how they've got stockpiles of stuff waiting on release. That's assuming they can clear tabs with the FL writers I guess...

I just hope that if CGL retains the licence, they don't try to recoup the money by rushing out a 5th edition and trying to squeeze more money out of everyone. And if someone else takes over, that they don't do so either.

K.

It must have been an alien wizard that made off with the money!

Developing, publishing, and flogging a new set of rules isn't exactly cheap. There is serious up-front outlay for that sort of thing, which is exactly where CGL isn't right now, given that they've been making only small print runs for some time.

Well, technically, they should/could have been doing that for quite some time now.
If you look back, each version of shadowrun had a life time of about 5 years.
And shadowrun 4 is about 5 years old now if i am not mistaken.
Technically, it is time for a new version of Shadowrun no matter what happens at/with/to CGL . .

lol, shoot it! shoot it! shoot it again!!

I'm in 50% agreement and 50% the other way. If Catalyst retains the license, I hope they don't try to put out another edition. OTOH, I would love to see another company give a go at creating SR5.

Wasn't there a rumor about SR5D20 some years back? *runs for his life*

5 * 20 is 100. SR + D = SRD, System Reference Document. Put together the clues!

All is clear, gaming vibrating at the 100th harmonic of colour!

That was an April Fools joke. Shame on you for bringing it back up.

SR and Ctech sales halted?

That doesn't sound so reassuring.

First, I have never been so sure about ICV2's news, as it has been wrong in the past.
Second, it seems that it is a selective list, not total. It would be nice if we knew which sales
have been stopped. I expect it is going to be the books that are still needing to get their
freelancers paid.

I notice that it did not list Battletech sales being halted, which could imply either
a) There are no products that Freelancers on Battletech had not been paid for, or
b) The unpaid Battletech Freelancers accepted the payment schedules sent out, while
the SR and Cthulhutech people did not
or c) The SR Freelancers made a big stink, someone threatened with a lawyer, and CGL
decided to stop the books with unpaid Freelancers, despite doing so costing them potential
revenue, to pay the Freelancers first.
or d) The books that are on the list are pre-order books, and CGL is trying to make sure they can
cover the pre-orders, since the books are delayed in printing either because of this or from
other considerations, and, overall, has no bearing on the rumourmill.

Can we get a listing of the books that are (likely) temporarily halted on sales?

I did a bit of searching on the Battleshop. I found only two books which had their PDFs pulled: Vice and
Seattle 2072. They are also out of stock on SR4A. It seems likely these are the books they asked distributors
to stop taking orders for, as a) They obviously cannot keep up with the demand for SR4A, and b) I have never
seen a book available as a PDF go to "book only" from CGL. Vice and Seattle 2072 are also the only SR4 books
missing from Drivethrurpg.

Interestingly, I see no CthulhuTech books missing from either source. Also, I would expect the SR4A LE to be
among the "halts", simply because of all the delays with that book getting here.

The DotA:Dusk PDF is missing from BattleShop. Sounds like some freelancers are serious about copyright.

Again: If you are interested in specific PDFs, now seems to be the time to get them.