What about "Frak" in the new BSG? That worked very well. Or "Smeg" in Red Dwarf. Both words are such an integral part of the show, things would go wrong if you replaced them.

The same is true of shadowslang. Love it or hate it, it's part of Shadowrun, and suddenly losing it hurts the game.

I don't mind change in the world; but it should be "organic" changes, that come from within the world itself. Things like the Arcology or Dunk's Will are good examples of things that change the world from within. Suddenly grafting a bunch of changes onto the world doesn't work.

I used 'frak' before nBSG.


On Red Dwarf, that show was crazy over-the-top bonkers. A major cast member that evolved from the ship's cat? So why would grossly silly not work?


P.S. Plus, you do you know smegma is, right?

That was in the original Battlestar Galactica from the late 70s. And it meant the same thing back then. That it worked this time around and not back then is a comment on something, but I'm not enough of a linguistic sociologist to tell you what.

I don't mind the shadowslang, per se; what bothered me was the notion that it had completely replaced words that had been in the English language for centuries. I prefer real cursing, but I can see that there's a useful place for the shadowslang as well.

And we really need another frelling thread about this, because as many have pointed out, this is way the hell off topic for this thread.

Why not Drok and Stom from Judge Dredd fame?
Also, how did Bill and Ted win?
Terminator had 4 Movies, Videogames and Books o.O

Geez, I really like old SR slang... I even use words "drek" and "frag" in RL quite often.

I always thought "Smegmo"/"Smegma" would be a great name for certain character types in that other game.

I use frag all the time...from FPSs. Drek, although an actual word (Yiddish) just fell dead for me. Because the Hasidic Jews didn't get their own country in NA? Because NY-NY was effectively a big whole in the setting? *shrug*

But it works so well in Battlestar Galactica (new version) and Caprica. And at the gaming table it also works a lot better, parents/spouses/siblings tend to find it unacceptable if the F word is used as if it was a bad HBO flick. I hadn't really noticed that they removed the slang curse words and replaced them with current curse words, but that would be one of the first things I would house rule.

I think it is entirely dependent on the group you play with.

Now wasn't there a topic around here somewhere...

To me, the old SR slang sounded more like slang from another country that was suddenly forced onto American English. It just felt awkward and embarrassing to use with any regularity.

My problem with the slang wasn't that it existed, it was that it replaced effective language (yeah, love it or not, swearing is effective language at times). I have no problem with it still existing, though I think the real-world alternatives should be used in the text where appropriate too.

And yeah, we've strayed off-topic.

and



To me it's not a "grounded in reality" issue but it has something to do with suspension of disbelief. Prä-SR4 was based on the mid to late 80s. However SR's set in a near future based on our own. While I agee that SR's a parallel universe it was increasingly hard to take SR seriously when e.g. the iPhone became better than a cyberdeck in some aspects. SR simply needed an update for sustaining the suspension of disbelief.

Oh, please. No one complains about the unreality of Buck Rogers or Star Wars, despite the fact that their technology is supposed to be super-advanced. In some ways, their technology is behind ours. The new BSG really didn't have much technology that was ahead of ours, and was actually behind ours in a few ways.

But to get back on topic: Adam, do you mind telling us a bit about why you decided to leave Catalyst? They lost one of the best people in layout in the industry, so I'm surprised they let you go easily.

Yeah, I don't think that's the problem. SR4 with cyberdecks could have been done and it could have been awesome, really. Part of it was developer/publisher decision; there was a definite direction stated with SR4 and some things were non-negotiable. Part of it is that Shadowrun is a game with a timeline and as the plot and history moved forward, there was a certain narrative momentum that felt like the technology should move forward too. If Shadowrun didn't have a metaplot, it'd be much easier to keep it in a world of cyberdecks and chrome limbs.

Apart from the fact that Star Wars' not even set in our galaxy none of those are near future settings firmly based on our reality. I can live with a 6th world without MS or Goolge, but I can and will ask why their tech's underdeveloped in central aspects like W-LANs and smartphones. And don't tell me something about the crash. Did they forget how to read books? As a matter of fact I'd love to see more aspects of our reality in SR. Especially the climatic change. Bruce Sterling has associate that with Cyberpunk years ago.

In the words of the Dude
"That's just like your opinion... man"
Which is aimed at all of you discussing Shadowslang , 4th ED and just how freaking awesome I am in a thread with very different and very important subject.


BlueMax
/she isn't my special lady
//I am just helping her conceive

Hehehe... It was turned into Ghoulgle (or is Ghougle better), for looking up your next meal, graveyards, etc.

Yes, it could have been done for the old players. (Well, I am an old player, running since 1993, but I still love the changes...) But I doubt it would have attracted many new (read as young) players. Generation X-Box simply wouldn't buy Cyberdecks with wires.

Yeah, its even in the disclaimer: "A long time ago in a galaxy far far way..."

I see a certain connection. At least regarding the changed setting. These points are important, particular if we might face a new edition with new devs and maybe new developments concerning the future setting.

Yes, I do. I believe that it is important that the general public know I'm not working at Catalyst anymore, but the details are for myself/Catalyst and selected people [friends, family] to know.

I am far more interested in my future than my past.

and turn the game into a political statement?

Given that logic, it would fit into any thread at any time. My point is that we as a community have hashed out the wireless pros/cons/assumed realities and the desires related language before in other threads , whereas the post by Frank and the responses are new ground.

The only transfer suggested in this thread which grabbed my interest was a pipe dream, Weisman. One that I would enjoy muchly.

There is most certainly going to be a new edition.... my SR4ALE is on the boat... or so the current spiel goes.

BlueMax

Please keep the posts in line with the subject of this thread. Shadowslang for example has nothing to do with Catalyst Game Labs. Open another thread boys. That's why we've got so much space. I'd much rather this thread not get bloated down. Thanks.
-F4.0

I'm glad I'm not the only person who really, REALLY misses all the SR slang. The first time I saw a real-world swear word in Shadowrun 4th (I forgot which book... Emergence?) my heart sank a little. It seemed a little childish at first, but seriously, that slang is a surprisingly large portion of what made Shadowrun feel unique.

It's like A Clockwork Orange. One reason why it's so unique is because of the slang used in the novel to really create a feeling of a different culture. Cribbing from modern English robs the game of a slightly alien feel. Not enough games pay attention to such small details.

Who isn't? Unless of course you are Jason Bourne (if other people can derail this thread, so can I)



Wasn't this resolved by the foundation of the Amazonian Nation and the fact that the entire brazilian territory (Rio de Janeiro - São Paulo axis the exception) had its native vegetation grown to the original status pre-portuguese colonization?

Of course as a business student I had no problem with suspension of disbelief. "Okay it is like our world but instead of investing all their consumer research into frivolous crap like phones with applications they instead poured all their money into Virtual Reality, Man/Machine Interface, Biotechnology, and Space Colonization." One of the biggest problems my group had was with HOW FAST humanity had progressed in 70 years -- until you've lived something like that (ala our RL grandparents) it is jarring to think about the pace of technology. Seriously, something like 10 orbital habitats and now a Mars colony in the span of 70 years?

Sorry. Please let me just finish my thought and I'll stop the OT immediately.



No, just opening new playgrounds for evil corps vs. eco-activists and conflicts between low lands like Bangladesh or Oceania and industrial countries. Maybe some corp fights (and runs) for a thawing Antarctica.

--

Now, BTT.

Crap. I posted before I saw the admin no-OT talk. Sorry. Very, very sorry. I won't OT any more.




Okay, I'll state my major problem with the tech in Shadowrun.

Hacking is too f*cking easy in character, and breaks the paradigm of ubiquitous data.

There I said it.

I put myself in a situation where I think like someone who wants to secure data from even casual attacks, and my solution is, time and again, to either take it off the matrix completely, or spend copious amounts of money on security software, or hire someone to browse my system, real time, looking for intruders.

For every rational, real-world-inspired security solution, there's an instant, spiffy program you can buy/pirate/download online that end-runs around that. Encryption is utterly useless and no replacement apparently was researched in 10-20 years since encryption was destroyed (which I find hard to believe). Firewalls? Hah! Go down to the stuffer shack and buy a program to bypass most of those buggers. While you're at it, hell, go ahead and hack the stuffer shacks' point of sale system and score some credits or ultra-cheap merchandise. Why not? It's not like anything they do can really, seriously stop you if they're linked to the matrix at all. Every game I've run with a hacker PC they just hack sh*t randomly to screw with people, steal things, and run amuck, because they know that very few people are hackers or are capable of resisting their efforts. It'd be like if the street sammy decided to walk down the street and murder at random, because the player knew the rules as written couldn't provide a law enforcement response he couldn't just defeat out of hand. Having a Hand of GOD operative hunt you down for hacking stuffer shacks, or every single commlink you try to hack being armed with an agent and high level ICE is just silly. I don't mind the concept of a spider, but it seems like the approach of actually hacking back at an intruding hacker is akin to trying to eat an elephant with an olive fork. Log the problem connection/account, block it entirely, shut your firewall down if it's a severe enough security breach, and then repair the damage.

It seems utterly insane. The paradigm of real world balance seems broken, skewed to the side of "attack" instead of "defense". The real world paradigm is that every time an exploit is generated, even the other black hat hackers will attempt to find ways to block that exploit, simply to be the person who did it. I mean, a few years ago DDOS attacks from botnets were *the* way to bring down even large portions of the internet. Now it's relatively straightforward to configure strategic routers to be more or less resistant to anything other than a custom designed DDOS. While exploits will always predate countermeasures by the very nature of the game, countermeasures *must* keep up with and seal off exploits, otherwise the flawed system will be abandoned. This is the first, primary, and most important axiom of internet technology. If a flaw exists, it is a critical/fatal flaw, and the flaw can not be fixed, it will be (usually quickly) superseded by technology that *will* plug that hole. I simply don't see how a data-driven economy could function within SR4's current matrix rules.

Maybe I totally missed it, but the more I dig into the matrix side of shadowrun as the editions go by, the less interested I am. AR was awesome, but it's also the most readily open way to exploit ANY shadowrun team (since the benefits are so great) without a dedicated hacker that has better software and dice pools than the other hacker.

Shadowrun 4th has made me into something that I never thought I'd be: A neo-luddite in a cyberpunk setting.

i dont think exploit, stealth, or any of the other hacker programs are sold over the counter at stuffer shack.

also, a SR character, at least a SR4 character, is a professional. As such, a SR4 hacker will be one that have spent some serious time and effort becoming good at getting into secure systems.

and then there is the wish to make a hacker a playable character, without the rest of the group going for something to eat while the GM and player cracks some system that the player things is important while the GM knows is not, but cant really just say so without tipping his hand about whats going on.

why play a hacker, in the gibson sense (more like a 80s phone phreak really, when access to a regional phone switch was protected by a unlisted phone number more then anything else) when the best way to get in is by having the troll apply a rubber hose to some clerk so that he gives up his password?

and that may be the major one, the legacy of the gibson hacker. That may be the single biggest indicator that SR still have not gone post-anything...

No, you're entirely right. I should have phrased that better. It wasn't meant to imply you had (or had not) expressed any interest in the job, simply that no interest had been expressed by you publicly (ala here, I guess). My apologies. It wasn't trying to put intent or words in anybody's mouth, most especially the White Jesus' mouth.

You sound you come from a tech background if not a security background.

So let me put it to you this way - imagine a world where the IT architects and Flash developers win - and pure accessibility of information becomes of far greater importance than the security of the information.

Honestly, give it another 60+ years of security pros just banging their heads against the wall and I can easily see this dystopian technological nightmare occuring.

- J.

I wish you a bright future, then.

However, inquiring minds want to know. Speaking hypothetically, if the issues that caused you to leave Catalyst (whatever they are) were resolved, would you want to go back? Or do you consider your bridges burnt? Likewise, do you think you'd be welcomed back at Catalyst if the situation changed?

Additionally, if Frank's prediction about the Shadowrun license going to someone else comes to pass, would you want to be a part of the new team? I personally think you'd make a kick-ass line developer. Or are you simply done with Shadowrun for now?

Thank you. It will be.


No interest in discussing anything hypothetical, especially in public, especially for free. More lance, less free.

in general, i have found that it doesn't matter how good of an employee you are... if your boss is a douchebag and has decided that (s)he is right and you are wrong, no matter how stupid the decision they are making is, and no matter how blatantly obvious it is that they have no clue what they're talking about... at some point, if you won't pretend the emperor is dressed in a beautiful robe the likes of which has never before been seen, you quite suddenly become expendable.

and since being treated like a piece of month-old leftover fish that's been sitting in the trashcan is widely considered to be not fun, i certainly couldn't blame anyone for wanting to leave, be it under those exact circumstances, or circumstances similar to it.

or, in other words: just because he is very good at layout, doesn't mean his boss has to acknowledge the reality of the fact that he's really good at layout.

(disclaimer: i have no special knowledge of why Adam left. i could speculate that since two other employees left CGL at almost exactly the same time, with one leaving for "ethical reasons" and the other leaving for "similar reasons" (ie probably also ethical reasons), the third person quite likely could also have left for ethical reasons, but it would be just that: speculation. that said, i'm going to stick with that as my speculative reason for Adam leaving, in which case he's not likely to go back to working with CGL unless some really huge changes happen... like a substantial portion of employees, especially upper-level management, being replaced. even then it probably wouldn't be likely; in all probability, by then Adam would have found someplace else to employ his talents. after all, he *is* really good at what he does.)

Well I say we leave Adam alone about what happened and just hope that something comes to pass that would interest him in working with SR in the future. You've done great work and while you had your reasons to leave, you would be a great asset to any team.

Heh, Adam the ice cold pro merc . . pity you're gone, it would be a perfect fit after all ^^

Sig worthy, I needed one....and in an ironic twist since I'm no longer in Calgary (is your meatbody still in Edmonton?) I guess you'll have to wait for payment till I can make it to GenCon on a year you are there.

Adan, do people who somehow get you an actual lance get anything besides funny looks now? (I just woke up...)

You did, after all, say "More lance":)

Well i for one am glad to see this thread finally petering out, it's better then more gloom and doom and folks trying to grind the story for blog material.

Shadowrun will endure, CGL may or may not but in absence of hard evidence to the contrary I think they will. Plus for the good of the line I hope they maintain as jumping publishers once again would almost assuredly trigger a jump to 5th and honestly I just feel like 4th is coming into it's own with SR4A.

Okay, so today I was banned from the Shadowrun freelancer forums. The reason being I was telling other freelancers I thought Jason was being dishonest in his statements, and one of them (who shall remain nameless) snitched on me. Truth be told, I haven't been happy with the situation at CGL for quite some time and this comes as a bit of a relief as much as anything. Several weeks ago I sent an e-mail and certified letter to Loren Coleman stating I would withdraw copyrights unless I was paid in full for the books I was owed (a check was cut and mailed to me about a week later). That also means I was paid when several other freelancers were not, so when the extant of CGL's financial troubles started making the freelancer rumor mill, I was less in a position to hold back drafts or remove copyrights than several others - because I'd already been paid for most everything.

So, now that I've been removed for fear of undermining Jason and the company, I'm calling it quits with CGL. I'm done freelancing with them, and I'm going to send them an e-mail tonight terminating my contracts. I will no longer be a Shadowrun freelancer (sniff) but I hope to be again one day under a different company and a different line developer.

Holy crap. They AH has "retired" from freelancing SR. That really pisses me off. I was up to now hoping CGL would muddle through and get it sorted but now I want them to sell upn the SR license and give someone else a go.

How much would Dumpshock need to buy it, I hear that a whole lot of people with experience writing/making SR books are out of work, and we could try and get Synner back as developer...

Actually I am almost serious about this.

AH - To address you personally, that's a damn shame, I love your writing (particularly the infected which agreed with my houserules), and have spent hours comparing my theories with yours. You saying something about the background is almost canon to my mind (and I suspect to others here). That said I have full respect for what you've done, clearly a hard choice for you.

Edited - to talk to AH not over him.

Ancient History,

Being an old timer here on dumpshock (pre the 02 crash) I want to say that it was a happy day when I heard that you were going to be working on 4e. I had been pretty negative when Fanpro released it and was happy when they lost it to Catalyst. Now that you will no longer working for Catalyst I feel sad. Its like all the people I respected as authors are like rats leaving the ship, which I suppose is not surprising with the news about Cthulhutech on top of the other Catalyst problems. I just wanted to say thanks for the work you did do and I hope that whatever happens to Shadowrun you can find a freelance gig you enjoy.

I'm sad to hear you've had such trouble AH. Thanks for your efforts.

Making a good product takes time and effort. If as much effort went into shadowrun as went into battletech that fact checking would be assumed. From the battletech books I have picked up the production value of the battletech books bitch slap the shadorun books so hard I'd say SR needs dentures but you kind of need a jaw to place them in.


I don't see the numbers so maybe its justified, but it looks like SR was the red headed stepchild of catalyst.

So on the off chance that Catalyst retains the license what happens to the books in development. With freelancers leaving can they still produce that material (ie Almanac,toolkit,Dota and follow up book). Or does all of that material go into limbo? If catalyst looses the license with whom should we discuss investing?

Heh, never say 'never' (or 'finally' in this case).

I beg the question: will there be a 6th world almanac yet?

As long as I'm developer, I'll be working to get the 6WA out.

Jason H.

Unless we have some Drownball champions, I wouldn't hold your breath for that.

Thanks to everyone for all the kind words!

The license or the IP? The amount is probably in the seven figures at a minimum.

And if you think a new company (I'll say it once: The idea of Shadowrun going "open-source" is probably the most delusional idea I've yet heard on this thread) would necessarily do any better where it counts (the business side), you are, to be quite honest, not seeing the reality.

CGL is a small company (for some reason my mind says the biggest they've gotten in terms of full-time employees has been something like 6, though I'd be damned if I could source it) trying to handle multiple licenses probably worth millions, in a very low-margin business.

Meanwhile, their freelancer pools for BT and SR alone are probably in the dozens, each? (I won't even hazard a guess re other game lines.) Each one of those is a creditor, on top of all of their other creditors. Accounts Payable is a tricky thing for any small business. It's why companies like OfficeTeam and Administaff make millions providing people who do just that.