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Cergorach
This rumor should be easily verified, get a store that carries SR/CT call the distributor and ask. As no distributor in the Netherlands carries CGL products, I can't help you folks verify this on my end. It now being the weekend does suck wink.gif

ic2v.com has posted inaccurate reports before, but as this could be easily verified from their end, it should not be a rumor. But sometimes news articles don't get checked as thoroughly as they should.

As to why certain releases were pulled. It can't be the SR/CT licenses, then everything would be pulled right now, including PDFs. The only thing I can imagine is the freelance issue, folks not getting payed 30 days after publication. The products that seem to have been 'pulled' have a release date that is older then 30 days.
TW
QUOTE (ICV2)
Catalyst is attempting to get the rights to continue to sell both game lines, but has given its distributors a list of products that can no longer be sold effective immediately.

After some browsing through DriveThru and Battleshop, it looks like the list of products includes Vice, Seattle 2072, and Dawn of the Artifacts: Dusk as they seem to no longer appear in the catalog. Dawn of the artifacts: Midnight I couldn't find on DriveThru anymore, but it's still available on Battleshop.
Grinder
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Mar 19 2010, 06:10 PM) *
But you could kiss the searchable, DRM- & watermark-free PDFs from BattleShop goodbye instantly. And while it is quite likely to see new prints with a new publisher, seeing PDFs again… not so much.


Why do you think so?
Rotbart van Dainig
Why I think so about the first part?
Well… just read the posts above.

Why I think so about the second part?
Because WotC pulled the D&D4 PDF line, citing piracy – the industry is pretty paranoid about PDF releases (no matter that the books are scanned & pirated anyway), at the very least watermarking them or considering going back to the DRM age (see iPad, Kindle, etc.).
It was IMR that pushed the hassle-free PDFs for SR and BT, before becoming CGL…
Saint Sithney
QUOTE (Garou @ Mar 16 2010, 01:25 PM) *
maybe we could use some funding scheme, like the Kickstarter, to raise the funds for the books that are missing/non printed yet.

here is the link


They got a feature on Wired.com, and there is so much JUNK that has gotten enough money that, hell, who knows?

www.kickstarter.com



I'm still interested in hearing what others think of this kind of model for publication. Think if we could get enough upfront scrilla to pay the freelancers that they'd put the latest PDFs back out in the world? I was putting off getting Seattle 2072 until my team was finished up down south.

I know that there have already been some painful resignations over this situation, but, if we let the sales build up through kickstart in the manner of a pre-order, all the up to a point where CGL could pay according to contract with nothing out of pocket at all, do you think the aggrieved parties would go for it? I mean, it sucks mighty hard to get paid contingent on sales figures, but not getting paid at all sucks double plus hard.

plz to opine
Stahlseele
QUOTE (fistandantilus4.0 @ Mar 20 2010, 05:09 AM) *
That was an April Fools joke. Shame on you for bringing it back up. biggrin.gif nyahnyah.gif

heheh nyahnyah.gif ^^
JM Hardy
It's not always easy to figure out just what to say about various steps in this process, but let me at least say this: books being pulled from sale are not tied to the renewal of the Shadowrun license.

Jason H.
Demonseed Elite
No, very likely they are tied to unpaid freelancers withholding copyright.
Stahlseele
QUOTE (knasser @ Mar 18 2010, 11:43 PM) *
I bought Unwired, Arsenal and Augmentation yesterday. embarrassed.gif

QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Mar 19 2010, 12:23 AM) *
Of course, leave it to khadim to try and contradict other people by panicky buying stuff *snickers*

i'm taking it back
QUOTE (Demonseed Elite @ Mar 20 2010, 02:21 PM) *
No, very likely they are tied to unpaid freelancers withholding copyright.

oi
ShimmerGeek
:/

Man, why did I look at this thread... Now I'm even more paranoid about getting my pre-orders :3
Tiger Eyes
QUOTE (Demonseed Elite @ Mar 20 2010, 08:21 AM) *
No, very likely they are tied to unpaid freelancers withholding copyright.


Quite a few freelancers, from what other freelancers are telling me. Of the products I've heard from my freelance friends (because we all work together on these products), the list includes: Running Wild, Seattle 2072, Vice, Dusk, and Midnight. Ebooks might be affected, as well; I haven't heard yet about those. I've also heard a rumor about Unwired. To the best of my knowledge, none of the freelancers owed money on SR4A (or other, earlier books) have pulled copyright yet.

While I'm personally sad that I'm out thousands of dollars for my work, I do consider it only fair that CGL stopped sales of the items they didn't have copyright on -- following the receipt of a Cease and Desist letter (let's be honest here, they had to be forced into it) -- rather than continuing to sell them. Of course, the ideal situation would be if all the freelancers were paid and the fans could buy the books - like has been said on this thread many, many times, we don't write for the money, we write for the love of the game. But it is painful to see your work being sold and profited upon without ever seeing a penny of what you were contracted for...
Stahlseele
Question: Stopping sales means less money for CGL to give to the Freelancers right?
Of course, wether or not they do give the money they make from these to the freelancers is a completely different question . .
Rotbart van Dainig
Midnight is now gone from BattleShop, as well as Running Wild.
Tiger Eyes
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Mar 20 2010, 11:20 AM) *
Question: Stopping sales means less money for CGL to give to the Freelancers right?
Of course, wether or not they do give the money they make from these to the freelancers is a completely different question . .


I guess the answer to that would be to look at the street dates for the various books and consider that... August of 2009 for several of them... August of 2008 for SR4A... and consider how long CGL has had to pay the contracts, and then ask if the freelancers are doing this because they have lost faith that the company means to uphold its contracts...
Stahlseele
Ah, i see.
Dwight
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Mar 20 2010, 08:30 AM) *
Ah, i see.

Further it increases the pressure to get the missing money back (and then out to the freelancers). Because, and running off assumptions about the speculated amounts, a relatively small fraction of that amount should be enough to pay off the freelancers.
Stahlseele
Dunno.
How much does a Freelancer get if we go from what Demoneyes Elite told us?
Some hundred Bucks? Some thousands? Do they get percents from sold stuff?
What about interest for the time it was not paid in?
Dwight
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Mar 20 2010, 08:55 AM) *
What about interest for the time it was not paid in?


Speaking from contracting experience, extremely unlike this would happen. Only way you might see something like that is if it went to court imposed settlement.
Demonseed Elite
There won't be any interest for unpaid time, that's just not going to happen. Nor is there a percentage of sales worked into any of the contracts. It's straight amounts based on word count, usually around 3.5 cents per word. So it depends on the length of the piece. For instance, the Hong Kong chapter of Runner Havens that I wrote (45,000 words) came out to about $1500.
Rotbart van Dainig
Otherwise, see Michael A. Stackpole.
Stahlseele
QUOTE (Demonseed Elite @ Mar 20 2010, 05:03 PM) *
There won't be any interest for unpaid time, that's just not going to happen. Nor is there a percentage of sales worked into any of the contracts. It's straight amounts based on word count, usually around 3.5 cents per word. So it depends on the length of the piece. For instance, the Hong Kong chapter of Runner Havens that I wrote (45,000 words) came out to about $1500.

Thanks for clearing that up.
Demonseed Elite
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Mar 20 2010, 12:04 PM) *
Otherwise, see Michael A. Stackpole.


Yeah, novels typically work differently, though I have no idea what sort of arrangement CGL was planning for new novels.
Penta
Jesus. Has there ever been a time in which FASA/FanPro/CGL has not had issues with accounts payable?
BishopMcQ
QUOTE (Cardul @ Mar 20 2010, 12:58 AM) *
Interestingly, I see no CthulhuTech books missing from either source. Also, I would expect the SR4A LE to be among the "halts", simply because of all the delays with that book getting here.

Neither SR4A nor any CthulhuTech product were included in messages from IMR to their distributors to cease and desist sales to the extent of my knowledge. SR4A is in stock and available through distribution channels, if it is out of stock . As stated before, the LEs are literally "on the boat." Once they arrive at the warehouse, an official street date for the SR4A LE will be announced.
Demonseed Elite
Michael Stackpole's post linked above is pretty enlightening as to the motivations and feelings of the freelancers, though. No one who writes for a game company expects serious money out of the deal. We all know that going into it, there is no deception there. As Michael wrote:

QUOTE
Loyalty doesn’t just run one way, however; and it isn’t just something between FASA and me. Do I think a failure to keep accounting up is a sign of disrespect? Do I think that a failure to attend to contract negotiations in a timely manner is a sign of disrespect? Do I think that not paying me money owed to me is a sign of disrespect? How can I not think these things?

Yes, they are signs of disrespect, but not malicious. They’re the by-product of some serious disorganization.


I never expected fame or fortune out of being a Shadowrun freelancer. But I do expect a respectful, trustworthy business relationship. Not getting paid on time is troubling. More troubling is contacting these people that you work with and not getting any reply. In nearly every case (though these new allegations would be an exception, if true), it's not malicious. Most of the time it's just sheer disorganization and disrespect. But that doesn't really make it much easier to deal with, in the long term.

Case in point: when FanPro collapsed and the Shadowrun license was moving to CGL, I was waiting for payment for Runner Havens and Street Magic, over 65,000 words worth of material. Rob Boyle, who was the Shadowrun line developer at the time, was helping me get in contact with FanPro's owners, Ross Babcock and Werner Fuchs. I wrote a polite e-mail inquiring to the payments and I attached scanned versions of the related contracts, in case they needed that information. The only reply I ever received from either one of them was this automated message from Ross Babcock's e-mail account:

QUOTE
I apologize for this automatic reply to your email.

To control spam, I now allow incoming messages only from senders I have approved beforehand.

If you would like to be added to my list of approved senders, please fill out the short request form (see link below). Once I approve you, I will receive your original message in my inbox. You do not need to resend your message. I apologize for this one-time inconvenience.

Click the link below to fill out the request: (link removed)


Needless to say, I filled in the request form, but still never received a reply. Every time the Shadowrun license changed hands, the freelancers were optimistic that things would be better. CGL made a lot of great promises in the beginning and I was truly excited about the crew of freelancers we had. Peter Taylor as line developer was exciting too, because I'd worked with and brainstormed with Peter for years. He's a creative force and many of us were pitching new and different ideas that Peter was receptive to (just look at all the unpublished stuff Bobby's been posting on another thread). Unfortunately, many of CGL's promises started to fall apart, Peter was pushed out, my disagreements with CGL came to a head and I left, and many of the other freelancers started to see late payments and lack of response from management. Which I guess leads us to where we are now.
Dread Moores
I have to admit a little concern with the freelancer contract setup. I'd imagine CGL's approach probably isn't that different from other publishers in terms of how it is handled. It does seem a little strange though. The writer (freelancer in this case) has already done the work, and presumably handled any rewrites requested from proofing/editing/fact checking folks. It's only personal opinion here, but it seems that the pay out for the work already completed should be done at that point. The responsibility to turn a profit from sales of the actual book falls on CGL, not the freelancers. If the freelancers were paid, upon completion of the material to "print-ready" status, it wouldn't matter about the potential for pulling copyright or freelancers constantly being in backlog. It would indeed matter that CGL would need to make a profit on their products, but isn't that really their responsibility already? I'm sure there's a business reason for this approach, but the whole thing just seems a little off to me, with the potential to cause way too many problems. Like the issues we're seeing now, due the current financial problem to be sorted out.
Method
Hmmm. So it really is as bad as it appeared...
Doc Byte
QUOTE (Dread Moores @ Mar 20 2010, 05:33 PM) *
I have to admit a little concern with the freelancer contract setup. I'd imagine CGL's approach probably isn't that different from other publishers in terms of how it is handled. It does seem a little strange though. The writer (freelancer in this case) has already done the work, and presumably handled any rewrites requested from proofing/editing/fact checking folks. It's only personal opinion here, but it seems that the pay out for the work already completed should be done at that point.


I've just signed a contract for translating RPG books. (Can't name the game or publisher but it's not SR.) Commonly the publisher will pay 1 to 2 months after the book's been published. (That's plus editing and printing.) So, that seems to be a common approach.
Dread Moores
I figured as much. It still seems all kinds of wrong and screwy, even though it is likely industry standard. You should be paid for the work you've done, not the money the company will eventually make off your work sometime down the road.
Method
Thats totally true, but as has been stated most of the freelancers write for love of the game not the money. Unfortunately it seems their good intentions have allowed them to be taken advantage of.
Dwight
QUOTE (Method @ Mar 20 2010, 12:04 PM) *
Thats totally true, but as has been stated most of the freelancers write for love of the game not the money. Unfortunately it seems their good intentions have allowed them to be taken advantage of.


Or, written another way, they are willing to substitute a certain amount of monetary gains (or the probability there-of) in return for some other thing they value. Negotiations happen, market values are determined, capitalism marches on.
Stahlseele
Hmm, i just thought of a question all this threw up for me:
If CGL does both SR and BT, do the BT freelancers have the same problems as the SR freelancers?
SecGuard
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Mar 20 2010, 06:27 PM) *
Hmm, i just thought of a question all this threw up for me:
If CGL does both SR and BT, do the BT freelancers have the same problems as the SR freelancers?


They probably do, hope we don't loose either of these games.
Stahlseele
CBT being an official board, i don't really expect an answer, but i asked this question over there too.
Method
Let us know if you get an answer.
Dread Moores
QUOTE (Dwight @ Mar 20 2010, 02:24 PM) *
Or, written another way, they are willing to substitute a certain amount of monetary gains (or the probability there-of) in return for some other thing they value. Negotiations happen, market values are determined, capitalism marches on.



You're right. It's totally a choice on the part of the freelancers to even accept the contracts. I would have just hoped that maybe CGL didn't have some of the same practices that I feel are quite broken in other creative/artistic based industries. Especially considering past promises to not run into the same issues with freelancers (and authors) that both FASA and FanPro encountered/caused.
Stahlseele
QUOTE (Method @ Mar 20 2010, 08:09 PM) *
Let us know if you get an answer.

Sure, but i would not hold my breath . .
Saint Sithney
So, to break down the kickstarter.com method of fixing this shizz, we would need someone from CGL accounts to go through each book and tally up how many funds they would require to meet the payments for unsatisfied contractors, add on whatever, if any, % of sales go to staff, the 5% kickstarter take, and maybe even tax. Then, with lawful oversight provided by the FLers, they could start up a kickstart project with its listed goal at that amount, and offer up PDFs for a donation of their regular price and above and hardbounds at their price and above. Then, if somebody wants to buy it (or just donate for some reason,) they're linked to the kickstart page where they can pledge the price of the item on kickstarter, and if the total money goal is met, people who want swag get swag, the workers get their druthers, and CGL gets the publishing rights back without bleeding a single red cent from their miser's palms. If the goal isn't met, then people who want swag get their money back and it's a null equation all around.

Seems a shame no one is currently in the position to make this happen.
JM Hardy
I just posted this in the stickied thread, but I thought it should go here too. Management has issued another statement to address some books being pulled (which was originally reported by ICV2.com, which explains the header of the statement. The statement in its entirety follows.

>>>
In Response To ICV2.com’s News Item, 03/19/2010 09:34pm

ICV2 is a great website that rapidly compiles information across the width and breadth of the gaming industry, as it occurs, and tries to provide a single source for all such news. However, there recent report contained some factual inaccuracies.

First, there has been no halt to sales of any CthulhuTech products. We’re are in negotiations with our friends at WildFire for how best to move forward, ensuring this great book line continues to grow. As such, neither Catalyst Game Labs, nor WildFire, have put a stop to any books from being sold.

Second, the stoppage of a small, select list of Shadowrun books has nothing to do with the license for Shadowrun, which Catalyst still holds. Instead, the halt to sales is due to on going negotiations between Catalyst and its freelancers. We’re moving quickly and thoroughly to resolve this situation to mutual satisfaction, so the community can have access to these great Shadowrun books in short order once more.
>>>

As has been my wont, I'll continue hanging around to answer what questions I can.

Jason H.
Tiger Eyes
Excellent to hear. Although I personally have not been contacted by any of the management of Catalyst regarding my request for payment, I'm happy to hear they are in "on going negotiations"... with... someone...

LurkerOutThere
So yea as covered earlier ICV2 jumps the gun again and posts rumors as news.

I personalyl found it very intertaining that the ICV2 article linked a forum post as a source which linked dumpshock and then the ICV2 article.
Ancient History
One can only wonder what this "negotiation" entails. Most of the freelancers I know are just asking to be paid according to the terms of their contracts. Pay the freelancers for their work, and you can do what you want with it. Not a whole lot of room for negotiation there.
Method
It sounds like the freelancers need a face to represent them...
LurkerOutThere
Yes this is the problem for a publishing company in a money shortfall Best way to get money > Publish > Requres copyright >> requires payment >> Requires Money.

I won't prepare to understand the full story and maybe the freelancers have reached the point where the nuclear option of withholding publishing rights seems like a good idea. But until then it seems like a null gain situation.
Rotbart van Dainig
That's just legalese. If you can claim that you are in "on going negotiations" with the other side about the fullfillment of a contract, you can wiggle out of that fullfillment being overdue. Usually, the standard response is to deny that there are such.
KnightRunner
OK I admit it, it was me. I jinxed it. I decided to get back into SR after a long break. Just played my first game last Saturday. I was very excited and made the comment, "Things seem to be going well for CGL, they appear to have their stuff together."

Sorry. A Shadowrunner should be more paranoid.
SecGuard
QUOTE (KnightRunner @ Mar 20 2010, 09:52 PM) *
OK I admit it, it was me. I jinxed it. I decided to get back into SR after a long break. Just played my first game last Saturday. I was very excited and made the comment, "Things seem to be going well for CGL, they appear to have their stuff together."

Sorry. A Shadowrunner should be more paranoid.



I'll take some of the blame as well, i just started looking at getting back into the game after a massive break.
Chrysalis
I started thinking maybe CGL would be a good place to start my freelance writing career.
nyahnyah.gif

-Chrysalis
LurkerOutThere
Well they might be hiring, of yourse you may have to take your payment in PDF credits nyahnyah.gif
Freejack
QUOTE (SecGuard @ Mar 20 2010, 04:35 PM) *
I'll take some of the blame as well, i just started looking at getting back into the game after a massive break.


Funny, I think it's me. See I've been running Shadowrun pretty much exclusively for the past 3 years, buying up PDFs _and_ deadtree books (multiple copies).

Last weekend I ran a game of Deadlands Reloaded.


I'm sorry. grinbig.gif

Carl
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