And I would like to believe those mistakes are being addressed on a long-term basis (and not just as an short-term fix), but I've been involved with three Shadowrun license holders now and I've heard that exact statement a few times already, including from Catalyst years ago.

RE: Ancient's quote from the WildFire site

That would seem to fall into the slow-to-print issues that CGL has had for a while now, which is possibly related to what has been going on with their finances? The post is not specific; the 'renegotiations' could involve some sort of withholding by WF to get CGL to pay on something, or it could involve WF trying to get CGL to up the print run or reprint certain material beyond whatever existing contract might exist.

The notice was posted March 11th, another sign that the issue in question might have been known about and was being dealt with well before being made public?

I can't dispute that, unfortunately. Mistakes have been made by various license holders. As I mentioned earlier, the only proof of how the new processes will work will be what happens next. If Catalyst cannot get its house in order and cannot pay freelancers, it will deserve what it gets, and what it gets will not be good.

Jason H.

Really, either path is a gamble.

Stick with CGL, who so far has shown itself to be of questionable integrity, and who has lost the loyalty of some of the best writers Shadowrun ever had. IF they right their boat, they're going to be taking on a lot more freelancers to fill out the ranks. What quality will their work be? That depends a lot on management and the line developer. We're gambling they'll keep more or less the same view as has been established. CGL has made some good products. I don't normally consider buying books for an edition of a game I don't play, but the CGL products look to have been good stuff. But with this turnover, past performance is not a dependable indicator of future performance.

Move to someone else and... well, even a bigger gamble. I don't totally understand the Topps/Fan Pro relationship, but Fan Pro has taken good care of us. Would they sell to Hasbro? Would they hold onto it for some little new guy? (CGL was a 'little new guy' when it acquired Shadowrun - but it advertised a lot of passion for the brand name, which it held to.) If they sell it to someone else, I think we can bet on a new edition in 2011/2012. If it's new management, maybe a few of the older freelancers will come back/follow along (I don't know AH personally, but from what I've seen of his work, Shadowrun is in his blood, and he couldn't stay away for long, and I think Bull "comes with" the property ). But what would fifth edition look like? It almost certainly will take another step away from SR3, and won't be like SR4. It'll be... different. Good different or bad is still just a toss of the dice.


Choose between the evil you know or the evil you don't. Looking at the odds though, CGL seems to be the safer bet.

Personally, I'd rather see CGL pull it off.



@Jason
You are correct. At least you guys know what the situation is, as far as the fans are concerned, and you are trying to move forward. While I know you can not control the ownership, I think that a greater accounting for the situation that lead up to $850,000 missing would be a good thing. In this case, I think heads need to roll as well.

If "a significant balance" in company money can go missing without anyone moticing, either through bad bookkeeping or plain theft, the company DOES have a significant problem. And not just a monetary one.

First, let me just say that I am totally not in a position to say anything about any dollar amounts, and nothing I say should be taken as any sort of commentary, one way or another, on those numbers.

Second, Catalyst is a privately owned company, meaning there will be activities that will not take place in the public eye. For many reasons, businesses tend to keep their financial info and other business matters private, and that's going to be the case here. The owners, however, need a greater amount of info about the whole situation, and I am told that have been and will continue to receive it. Others involved with Catalyst have also been provided with additional information about the situation, what is happening next, and why management has made some of the decisions they are making.

What people will do in response to this information is their decision. What more comes out to the public is not my decision--management will continue working on official communications as the situation progresses.

Jason H.

Off a link on RPG.net, I'm assuming the info has been updated seeing how I read it on Saturday and I cant get rpg.net at work. As of Saturday they were considering legal action if necessary, but it sounds like they are working it out with CGL now. Its just pointing to that it would appear that CGL has problems paying people on time PERIOD. Not just Shadowrun freelancers. Maybe they don't have the money but all in all it looks grim to always pay your bills late.

Telling your employees to keep working, they'll get paid when the company makes a little money is one thing. Saying that and "accidentally" making hundreds of thousands of dollars while people working for you are tightening their belts is outrageous (if in fact that is what's happened).

I hope when all of this settles down, the owners have the guts to come on here, if not to explain themselves then just to get an ear full from the fans.

scares the crap out of me.

It's been that way when FASA caved in and FanPro, a former sub-licensee, took over. It's been that way when FanPro caved in and CGL took over. Sure – not everyone continued marching on.

While I'm not an entirely big fan with the german additions or changes under FanPro and even acknowledging that some of the people (the nicer ones) from FanPro now work at Pegasus – it didn't ruin Shadowrun.

Sure, I might not like the changes in layout design or the covers (and, honestly – there are people hating the original covers even more) – but it's far from "some horrible image".

There is no guarantee for nothing. On the other hand, history seems repeating itself, so I'm considering the likelihood that Pegasus stops being a sub-licensee and becoming the main licensee quite more than "slighty bigger" than "very slim."

Such info was probably originating from the WildFire board, where their head has posted a few things in response. It mainly adds up to WildFire is keeping their options open, currently willing to continue to work with Catalyst and in negotiations with them, but also considering other options to continue CT as a product if their relationship with CGL is not resolved satisfactorily.

Here's the thing to keep in mind in both cases though... WHen the properties were licensed, the staff had already been in place. It was a staff of folks who had worked with the previous company extentsivly. CGL pretty much just brought over all of FanPro LLC when they got it, for example. There was some change, but by and large the chain of people working on Shadowrun has been unbroken despite the changes in companies.

Of course, that could potentially happen yet again if, somehow, everyone who left got together to form a new company and were able to raise enough captial to start up a publishing business and acquire he license. But chances seem somewhat slim on that front.

Bull

or they get hired on by the new licensee. Right now anything can happen.

It sounded like some of the people who left are/were already part of a new-ish company, Posthuman Studios.

Jason, it's pretty clear now that the slow pace of publishing at CGL had something to with the criminal actions of company members. Money was being made, but that money was not going to fuel new publication at an efficient rate. Like parasites in a body. We all wondered about it, speculated about it. Watched the line of developers change seats until you found yourself there. I have friend who want to buy books and a store owner who was devastated to hear about this issue at CGL. He's a new player and now he's wondering if he should even carry your products, both out of ethical concerns and the effort of promoting a product that has been so mishandled.

You've been doing spin over the last few days. Do us a favor and stop. I know you want to keep positive about this, that doing so is a part of your job. But you aren't going to be in that seat long if things are as bad as they sound. If things are, say 25%, as bad as they sound we should have heard about the resignation or termination of someone by this point and a court filing. I have not seen anything like that, so I can only assume that the same ability and capacity to do the same harm to my beloved game are still in place and no treatment has been started. CGL has had some time to deal with this out in the open, but considering how much time you must have been privately aware of this I must say I'm disappointed with the present state of things. Just two weeks ago I can recall telling someone that I loved the work CGL was doing and that I honestly believed you were one of the best outfits in pen and paper gaming today. CGL has made me regret that statement and I've been very sorry to see most of the people that I based that on leave in the wake of this fiasco.

Be honest, Jason. It might not seem like it but it's always worth it. Spin is mostly half truths, and a half truth is as good as a lie. A lie may buy you time but it never pays it's debt.

Posthuman Studios has existed since 2008; we own the rights to Eclipse Phase and some other things we've been working on.

Regarding people trying to gain the license - Smart people don't conduct negotiations on public internet forums....

I don't think this is fair or that you appreciate the delicate position Jason is in as the line developer. First and foremost, he is an employee of Catalyst. So I'll start by asking that you respect that position before someone vaults from your post into personal attacks.

I have to agree here, just because CGL doesn't want to air all of it's dirty laundry at this time, doesn't mean that they're not taking care of business.

Grexul

PS my screen name is missing an X

Grex

I have heard rumors in regard to some SR books being recalled because of this. Do we have a list of which books are being pulled, so some of us can run out and buy them?

They've hired a team to take care of it real quiet-like, so I've heard.

Okay, I'll be a little more blunt. If I'm saying something that you believe is not honest, call me on it. Don't tell me I'm spinning, or not being honest, without telling me what it is I got wrong, specifically. And I would hope, if you're telling me to be more honest, that you are basing that on something other than the fact that you might have a different opinion of events than I do. That's okay if you have a different opinion--lots of people do. But I don't think it should be implied that I'm being dishonest simply because my opinion differs from yours.

I'd also like to point out that there were plenty of things contributing to the slow pace of Shadowrun products being released, and likely neither you nor I know all of them, so we should be cautious about making overly broad conclusions.

Jason H.

The four titles I've heard are...

Vice - Hasn't made it to print yet?
DotA Midnight - Hasn't made it to print yet?
Running Wild
Seatle 2072 - Print copy still listed on Battlecorps, no PDF

Dusk doesn't seem to be listed either, so it might have been pulled as well?

It's not many titles in the scheme of things, but it is their most recent titles.

Guess this means I have an order to make.

For what it's worth, I just hope everything gets settled, no matter the outcome, so things can move forward.

As an aside, I worked at a place where a high up exec was brought in for a while. After about a year on the job the employees were all called in for an announcement. The exec would be taking some time off for a medical treatment program. That is literally all that was said, aside from outlining how the organization structure would be altered during his time away.

So, even employees aren't always subject to officially knowing all of the facts and details in a company, especially when the person involved was in an executive position.

When the person involved did return, their position was one in name only. They'd essentially been stripped of any real power and most responsibilities, but kept on payroll according to their contract. Part of the reason he was originally hired was still useful to the organization despite the problem. Action was taken to correct the situation and protect the organization, even though the action was not made particularly public.

Frank has always been a mixed bag. You can trust him to get some things right and roughly the same about of trust that he's got something way out in the weeds, too. The trouble is always trying to sort one from the other. *shrug* I do see differences between Ancient's and Frank's posts. I also see similarities. But I don't think the answer is simple as the matches are The Truth, as I get the impression they are working from roughly the same sources and position which means having some shared biases.

Is your last name Weisman? No. Do you have deep and complete insider knowledge beyond what you've sene here? Probly not. Do you have first hand knowledge of what's going on to CGL? Before you answer that go look up first hand and save us both some time. If you are going to call someone a liar you need to state how you think their lying, otherwise your just another internet troll playing at legitimacy with the same information or the same caliber of information (second hand or third hand) that everyone else here has. Even Frank more or less stated that his information was given to him by others making it second hand when it reached him and third hand when it reached us. Stop pretending like you have the basic clue about what's going on when it's obvious your understanding of the whole situation is no more complete then an angry fourteen year old's understanding of copyright. No amount of your righteous RAGE at injuries you yourself have not suffered gives you a right to call Jason a liar.

I for one appreciate Jason coming on here and talking to us, it's certainly better then some other game companies do.

Vice is in print and in Stores, wasn't pulled from the shelf at the LGS at least.

and with little to no source references, just a bunch of "its there" (maybe if one look at it at just the right angle and squints).

First round of vice shipped before things went to hell in a hand basket, second DotA book got fubared by just a few days.

That's a lot of "righteous RAGE at injuries you yourself have not suffered" from you, LurkerOutThere.

And, basically, just as meaningless as the one you are criticizing: You are preaching to the choir – or, to be more precise. to people playing Shadowrun about information, sources and trust.

I preordered my SR4A LE around a year ago. To-date, the most current information I have is that it's finally on the way. Since I put the order in, I have moved. I sent a couple of tickets to the default contacts trying to get my order updated so that I would eventually receive my book. In the end, I had to send Adam an email before I got any response. He helped me get my address and order updated.

In my mind, that was CGL's second chance. I was fairly dissatisfied at the amount of effort it took to ensure that a book I ordered a year ago would go to the right address. Simply put, after I get my LE (if I get it), I may not pick up another SR book for quite some time. My group will need to be playing SR more often and a book will have to really call out to me for me to spend money on it. I do know that I will only be buying through my local gaming store though since I will not again trust CGL with my money when I do not have the product in my hand.

Sorry, but I think he's calling it like it is.

As Redjack pointed out, Jason Hardy is a CGL employee, first and foremost. That means he's going to toe the company line first, help us out second. I appreciate him talking here, and I understand that his perspective on some things is going to be very different than a disgruntled ex-freelancer. However, he has not come out and contradicted any of the facts laid out by others. Instead, he's tried to put a positive face on these facts-- "spin", in other words. By doing so, he's hurting his credibility, and by extension, Catalyst's as well. Most of what he's stated boils down to: "It's not as bad as it looks."

Frank Trollman gave us facts and numbers to look at to support his conclusions. If Jason Hardy is going to contradict that conclusion, he needs to also give us facts and numbers to look at. For one, telling us exactly what's going on with the books in limbo would be nice. He hasn't come out and said: "These books are being held because freelancers are withholding copyright pending payment." We're just making that assumption. I understand that Catalyst likely has a different view on this; but come on, he can give us something solid to examine.

I'm new here, so I don't understand the politics of the forums. That being so, forgive me for asking what seems to be an obvious question.

If Frank Trollman doesn't currently work for CGL (which is the impression I received from previous posts), where is he getting these facts & numbers? I see no cited sources in his post that backs up these specific details.

Obviously the general comments made in his post are correct. Otherwise the CGL press release wouldn't have so many similarities to his post. But the specific details? I don't buy that he knows them unless he has a specific inside source. And if he does, why didn't he say so?

I have a friend who's a journalism major. His cynicism regarding insider knowledge by outside sources has sorta rubbed off on me. That's the reason I'm taking a "grain of salt" approach to this whole debate. (And FYI, even being a freelancer, I only know about as much on this situation as has been posted to this forum.)

OK, i asked Frank the same Question some hours ago.
guess what answer i got:
Correct, he can't name his source because doing so would get them in trouble.
He's basically wikileaks in this case and some whistle-blower who would like to stay Anonymous is giving him something to distribute.
And no, Frank doesn't work for CGL anymore. He was one of the first Freelancers to go i think. When was this? One or two years ago?
He usually does not come to dumpshock anymore either, because he had a falling out with the mods i think. But this was important.
Too important for him to not distribute to what is basically the number one shadowrun source/information/discussion node on this planet.

Interesting words from everyone.

My views...
1. Who cares ??
Shadowrun died when FASA died. It was resurrected. It's an RPG. When it died, fans still produced material. If it does now, why would they stop ??
What's going on behind the scenes isn't anything we can influence, so what's the point in "he said, she saids" ??

2. CGL are a company. If they can't do their job, they deserve to fold and be forgotten.
I've written several times about the proof-reading/editorial issues, their inability to communicate to customers and get product to people who've had their money taken.
About the only thing I have liked is the layouts finally being what they could be

3. The current situation could possibly be traced back months.
Sudden price cuts across their whole lines to generate quick cash. Inability to organise deliveries.

4. People like Adam J may have jumped ship because they would rather work on their own projects, rather than work for someone elses.

5. If SR is to be bought by another company, then GURPS or Mongoose are better choices than most.
They have a good track record and don't seem to be suffering problems at a time when others are.

6. If someone had written several years ago that SRv4 was to retcon background, rewrite rules and change the focus of the game, most people would probably have complained. Why complain now, if someone else does the same ??
I don't play or run SR at all anymore. I don't like what happened to it after SR v2. It stopped being a world, and just became criminals. What a waste. Everyone wants different things, and anyone who takes it on will force changes on the game.

7. If the owners wanted, they could license it anyway they want - to companies, or some sort of open license.
Or they might not license it all. Just because we like it, doesn't men it's actually worth anyone else wanting to make money from it, in the current climate, with the current level of interest beyond the few existing players.

8. Does it need to be sold as a complete RPG at all - it is, after all, source material and rules combined ??
Why not allow it to be sold as pure source material, so others [al paying small licence fees] can't use it - Savage World, BRP, GURPS, etc.
Several games have changed rules and done well out of it.
If it uses rules that are usable by anyone, ad the sourcebooks make money, which generate revenue, why would the owners not be happy ??

9. Considering how much fan material is out there, and no one is closing down, there's no necessity for official SR to continue.
Fans write source material, write rules, write fiction, write supplements, do artwork - and none of that involves the company [except to get some sort of "ok for fan use" ??].

10. If people really want material, why aren't they writing it already ??
There are numerous websites for people to contribute to. People were gagging to submit material for the magazine [that's been totally killed - obviously the organisers were completely unaware of the amount of work involved, since they spent much time hyping and then killed the idea].

That's my lot, possibly badly worded but I hope the intentions are there.

Oh, things were taken with a grain of salt originally. The problem is, enough facts have been verified (generally, by Mr. Hardy, but some by other freelancers and ex-freelancers and employees) to give the story some credence. Not enough facts have been verified to tell how severe the problem is. Jason Hardy's "spin" was noticed, and that just made matters worse. Now we believe he's hiding something. When combined with the other facts (highly reputable employees suddenly leaving due to "corruption issues") the situation does not look good.

While I appreciate the fact that the Shadowrun Line Developer has taken the time to post here, the truth is, he hasn't been able to make people feel better about the future of Catalyst and Shadowrun. He needs to post more facts and numbers to counter the ones Frank showed up with.

In Jason's defense, I don't think he would be allowed to post exact numbers, even if he had access to them, which he might not.

I've been a Shadowrun fan since about 2003. That's nothing compared to some of the oldbies, but I've put a ton of time, money, and love into this game. I have to say that all these recent events do nothing but infuriate and disappoint me. Maybe only driblets of information are coming out right now, but the tune seems to be the same from all around, and the writing is on the wall.

Put simply, CGL has fucked up bad, and the managers and people at the top ought to be fucking ashamed of themselves. Anybody who stole money from the company and anybody currently DEFENDING them are all accountable in my eyes. My hat goes off to those who resigned in protest, and I fully back any and all of the freelancers currently putting the thumbscrews to the company leadership for their inability to live up to their contracts.

Much as it pains me to say this, I hope CGL tanks for this gross betrayal of Shadowrun's fans, and the blatant and indefensible malfeasance of the management of the company. It *NEEDS*, at this point, to go to somebody else, who will maybe, fucking finally, after years of repeating this same stupid shit, give the IP and source material the love and fair treatment it deserves. The fans and the freelancers deserve no less, and CGL and Shadowrun wouldn't be anywhere without them.

Edit: Just noticed that my ironic signature, well... isn't quite so ironic anymore...

Facts are neither positive or negative, they are facts. You state that facts and numbers are what Frank Trollman used, well i can claim that aliens exist because there are 30000 abduction reports each year, how do you disprove? Again Frank has no obligation to be truthful in his post and actually a lot of incentive to not be as by his own statement he's got a bit of a history. While none of that makes his original post suspect it certainly doesn't assure us some of his unsourced figures and facts aren't sensationalized. Basically the "spin test" can only be passed in your eyes if Jason had come out and said something negative about the company for example how it is going to explode in a vaguely ball shaped outpouring of superheated plasma. Then i'm sure would have garnered praise from you and some of the others looking for blog material of insider leaks straight from Jason's lips. But it wouldn't be accurate if for no other reasons then business ventures seldom produce superheated plasma when they go up no matter what you use for doping material.

So my point is those who accuse him of spinning or being untruthfull that can prove it or at least put their own name down and say how they got these deep insights into what's going right there right now in the company aught to shut up. Spin works both ways and Otakusensei is basically spouting off at the mouth with conjecture, same as what's been keeping this thread going for almost 30 pages now. That's fine, but Otakusenssei basically said "spin is as good as a lie, stop lieing to me" when he has no way to prove outside his ten year old outsiders understanding fo the facts that's what's going on here.

Sorry folks--just because someone post rumors in no way obligates a company to share any confidential information. There are reasons some information is not publicly available, and those reasons do not go away just because rumors are floating around. And let's look at it this way--since some people aren't inclined to believe me anyway, why would they suddenly believe that numbers I posted are better than other numbers? How much of the company's confidential information do I have to spend time exposing before people would be satisfied?

Short answer: Too much.

So am I trying to put things in a positive light? Yes! First, I'm generally an optimist. Second, there would not be much point to me continuing to work if I thought it wouldn't come to anything. I understand there are problems, and I know how difficult the situation is--honestly, as both the line developer and a longtime freelancer, I know it better than just about anyone else in this thread. But I took this job because I want to move Shadowrun forward, and that means trying to move it forward as long as I have a chance, and not just laying down in the face or considerable adversity.

Jason H.

Well, I hope that Catalyst will survive because that's the safest way to prevent SR5 in the near future. However, I have a Plan C. (Not Plan B, as B's reserved for 'brutal'.)

Kidding aside, from my point of view one can't do anything now but just wait and see, if one's not part of the crew.

I'm going to go into complete conjecture (best guess/blow smoke out of my drekhole) based on what has been said on the boards here by catalyst (JM Harding) and others.

For some time the free lancers have not been paid as agreed.
For some time one of the part owners of the LLC* has been mixing a business account with his personal account.
Recently there was an audit of the books (did catalyst get some new owners? what prompted the audit? a change of book keepers?)

They found money missing in the audit and brought it to the attention of the owners (amounts of $850,000 over three years according rumors). The owner said yeah, mea culpa. I'll pay it back. The other owners said sure we accept that.

The free lancers get wind of this (maybe one of the owners told Frank, Frank might be spot on, who knows?, maybe frank heard it from a disgruntled employee involved in the audit, maybe he heard a rumor and being one of those freelancers owed money called in and got some information, this information could also be partly right and mostly wrong or vice versa). But with Frank Trollmans post, he has gotten word out that not all is right at CGL--and CGL admits this bit. Some Freelancers, as do some employees quit because of this.

Why do they quit? Maybe they don't like the owners decision, or don't feel they can trust management any more. This might have been one of those last straw type things too-especially if you have to keep hassling people (like the owners) to comply with your contract and keep getting ignored from the freelancers perspective.

I would note that JM Harding did say they were working on getting out notices to the freelance community on what was still owed and what the payment plan would be. However, if as a freelancer you don't trust the management, then this promise will most likely be ignored. I'd add that this happened in the span of less than a week, so I would not expect either a final agreement being signed between the partners, and consequently I do not think that CGL will be in a position to say when the freelancers might get their back pay.

*Note for those not familiar with what an LLC is, it is a business partnership or sole proprietership that provides some benefits that being corp (limited liability) and being a partnership (in catalysts case) where there is no double tax (on the company and then the individual). This also means that the owners/partners are only answerable to each other and their creditors (if their happy, there ain't drek all an employee can do other than quit to show their frustraion with the situation) .

Now as independent contractor, the freelancers have the right to withhold their copyright,so they must get paid at some point or there will be lawyers involved. This lawyer scenario will get expensive for all sides. The best solution is for everyone to take a deep breath, and go into arbitration or negotiation to settle all the back payments. This will take time, depending on the liquidity of the assets the owner will sell/borrow against to make the payments (if any).



PS: I have a hard copy of Vice. So it is in print at the FLGS unless it sold out already.

PSPS: Sorry for the long rant, and bull I'm with you on the slang---the real four letter words come out more as crass than anything IMHO. It helps get me in character too.

Drek,drek, drekitty drek drek...slot.

Vice and Running Wild were both already out in print, as was Seattle 2072. And I just got an email from Battlecorps that said my print copy of Midnight is shipping today.

Also, the whole thing about Jason entering a full spin zone (I'm so getting sued) and how Frank's "facts" (otherwise known as completely unverified rumors in any way shape or form) are spelling the doom of the world...yeah, this is why we really, really need to calm down.

In true Shadowrun style, we really just need for someone to go to CGL and (select one or more of: datasteal/extract execs/shoot people in the face) until we have The Truth. Who knows some expendable zeros that will give it a go for chump change?

Ok gang, I'm shutting this down. I'm not stopping you from talking about things. I'll open another thread, but this particular thread has gotten a bit lengthy and unwieldy, and this is a good time to step in and remind you all to play nice.

People are throwing out accusations, on both sides here, calling folks names, calling them liars, and it's degenerated into the usual spiraling disagreement.

Everyone take a deep breath and step back from this topic for a few minutes, let it digest a bit. And when you come back, lets try and keep things calm. YOu guys have been really good for the most part, I'm really impressed. I expected this to go south within 100 posts, 200 at the most. We're up to like 650 or so, and what issues there are so far have been pretty minor.

I'll open a "CGL Situation Thread, Part 2" in a moment for you to continue disucssing the situation.

Also, please be nice to Jason. Hes spending a lot of time to try and answer questions and reassure the fans. There's a limit to what he can and what he should say, and I'd ask everyone to respect that. He could simply stop posting over here (And it would likely make his life much easier if he did), and we'd be lefft with nothing but conjecture and the official press releases for CGL. Try not to scare him off, if you could.

Bull