Hours = Duration. Almost all RPG events run for four hours.
Slots = Times when events run. Typically, that's 8AM, Noon, 4PM, and 8 PM. However, different cons do different slotting. Some allow more than 4 per day, some allow no more than 3 per day. Some cons insist on meal breaks.
Event = An event entry in the catalog. A single event can include multiple tables which may require multiple GMs. (e.g. the SR Tournament at GenCon Indy has 12-14 tables. I'd also often schedule SRM events with 12 players and 2 GMs, and also have a standby GM for generics.)

That's pretty much covered in my recommendations above -- I strongly discourage folks from trying to run more than 20 hours (5 event slots) over the course of the con. Most folks don't realize just how draining it is, when you're competing with all of the other voices in the convention center, gamer funk, sleep deprivation, unhealthy eating, and 10 bajillion other distractions.

To break down dunners #s, a theoretical robot GM (as that's pretty much what you'd have to be to hit that maximum) for SR could run 14 events, while the same robot GM could run 112 BattleTech events.

The more practical maximums would be 5 SR events vs 40 BattleTech events. This amounts to a 8:1 ratio of BT:SR events (though this does assume all BT events are 2 hours). The 7:1 ratio being discussed seem pretty damn reasonable for giving equal support to each game.

This also assumes that events only run the length they are supposed to, which at least the SR tourney at GenCon never does. Most groups seem to go 6 hours, and I've seen groups go 8-10 hours. Normal events are a bit more constrained due to other events starting after them, but even so this makes it harder for the GMs running the tourney to run other events due to exaustion.

These guys work their butts off to provide the number of events they do, and usually have to spend most of the next week recovering. Complaining about this as a sign of lack of support for SR is inaccurate and offensive. (This last bit is obviously directed at Cain, not estradling)

While I agree that the number of con events can't be used as an argument for Battletech's supremacy over Shadowrun at CGL, I don't really think Cain is saying that Shadowrun GMs are lazy and need to do more work. More a question of why CGL hasn't tried to get more GMs, a question that I think has been more than adequately answered by many in this thread.

As a one without and con experience I can kind of see were Cain is coming from. If I look at a Con schedule and saw 7 or 8 Battle Tech events to every 1 Shadowrun event, knowing no different I'd assume equal effort per event. I would then assume from this "Appearant Effort" that someone in the business had a hard-on for Battle Tech and Shadowrun was the the red-headed stepchild when it came to Con events.

I'd be wrong, but until someone explained to me why (like what happened in this thread) I would have continued in my wrong assumption.

It sounds like Cain wants 7 to 8 time more effort put in on Shadowrun then on Battle Tech so that it would 'look like' the same amount of effort was being put in. That doesn't seem any more right to me then the reversed way that it appears to be currently

It's making more sense, but still not adding up.

Let's run with Dunner's numbers, and assume that the average human being can only handle 20 hours of GM time during the average con. That means five Shadowrun events, or ten two-hour Battletech events. Now, having been in more than a few BT games in my life, I can say that reffing four games is a major feat of endurance and ability. Realistically, if you want to conserve your GMing resources, you're going to stay at two, tops. That means in the same number of man-hours, you can have 5 Shadowrun events versus 20 BT events.

However, at Origins, we're looking at roughly 20 to 149. That doesn't add up to the expected 1:4 ratio. Not to mention, With 8 SR GM's officially on the books, that's 160 man-hours or 40 potential events. Not only would that improve the ratio, it'd make the most out of your existing GM's. 40:149 is close to 1:3, so that's be fair-- at least well within the expected ratio! But we're not seeing that. And since I really don't play BT much, the only reason I'd even go to a con is to play Shadowrun. It's like the D&D thing: I don't play competitive MtG (and it's all competitive these days) so there's be no point in me going to a WotC-sponsored con with a ton of Magic events and only a few D&D games.

I would love to see more GMs signing up. Unfortunately, it's taxing, and it sucks up at least half of your convention, if not more. For many, this is their vacation, and they don't want to spend it working.

Bull

Wait are you seriously debating based on what you "think" the numbers should be, against those that run them and have experience over multiple Cons say that they really are??? Seriously???

you do realise that those numbers have been mentioned repeatedly over the past few days, and that he ignored them the first four or five times they were mentioned too, right?

He's pulling a Cain.

You do realise your talking to Cain, right.

Oh that is hardly fair... I admitted to being wrong.

*click* and finally the light comes on.

Add this into your equation: Most GMs only volunteer for 2-4 events.

You can only work with what you've got. If you have twenty events worth of GMing available, you can only run twenty events. Period.

And with that, I'm done here, because like folks are observing, Cain only sees what Cain WANTS to se.



-karma

Stop. Stop twisting things around and using selective information to support your little crusade.

It's not 20:149; it's 29:149. If you are hell-bent on ignoring the games that aren't "new," then there are many, many games out of BattleTech's 149 that not new, and their number needs to be adjusted accordingly.

But really: just stop. Your rants, often "supported" by selective information, that continually ignore the viewpoints and facts that people with more experience and better information bring up, do nothing good for you, your reputation, and for Shadowrun and its reputation.

As someone that loves Shadowrun, I'm telling you: worry about your games and your fun. Whatever happens with Catalyst will happen with or without you, and based on years of your digging-in-heels-and-repeating-yourself approach, you are not going to influence those that you wish to.

If I can consistently get two GM's a week in a small town, why is it such a problem to get 8 GM's for a major event like Origins, where you're offering swag as well as bragging rights? Seriously, I don't do con's that often.


I'm running with John Dunn's numbers. He is an expert.


And I'm not saying that I think CGL is favoring BT over Shadowrun. Only that I'm confused as to why it looks that way.


That;'s just it? Why are there only twenty events of Shadowrun available, when there's over a hundred BT events? Personally, if I were twenty years younger, I'd do all twenty or die trying. Twenty events doesn't seem like enough, with kids who'll pull all-nighters for their favorite game. Why are there so many BT GM's, who'll run close to 150 games, when there's only enough for twenty-some Shadowrun games?

Or it could be that they aren't recruiting Shadowrun GM's as heavily. Or more likely, they just know more BT GM's who are going to be there. D&D4e is quite popular around here, and I could find 10 D&D GM's if I had to, for a major event like this and if I bribed them. That's because I know a lot more D&D players. This means that CGL simply knows BT better than Shadowrun, a point I'm not alone in mentioning (AH brought it up originally, IIRC). That's fine. It doesn't mean Shadowrun is the red-headed stepchild of CGL's products. But it does show where their expertise lies.

First off, stop saying 20. It's *29*. You've been corrected several times. Since you're so worried about numbers and ratios, 29 is almost a 50% increase in games over the 20 you keep stating.

Second, as I said. GMing is hard work, and it means you miss a significant portion of the convention. Most of us are going to see thing, meet people, hang out with friends we only see once or twice a year, play games, and demo new games.

Third: The maximum number of events you could GM at Origins is 12. That would involved running both event slots (Noon to 4 and 5 to 9) on Wednesday, all three slots on Thursday through Saturday (8 to Noon, 1 to 5, and 6 to 10), and one slot on Sunday (10 to 2). Origins has specific slots that they organize their events into, so that there are essentially "forced" lunch and dinner breaks.

Fourth: After about 20 hours, you lose your voice. I don't know that it would be physically possible to run 12 event slots of events. This effects GMs espeically since you are talking nearly non-stop through each game.

Fifth: It was advertised on DUmpshock, as I said. It was advertised on the SR4 web site. THere's little else you can do to advertise for Shadowrun GMs, honestly. When I organized the events, the majority of the GMs I was able to recruit were friends, people I gamed with and people I knew from ShadowRN, IRC, and later the DRF/DSF boards. And even then, with people who were die hard Shadowrun fans and personal friends of mine, it was rare to get someone for more than a year or two. Because, as I've stated again, it's a LOT of work and it really puts a crimp in your con.

Sixth: I'll say this as nicely as I can Cain... Stop it. YOu are wrong, what you claim is wrong, what you think is wrong, and what you insinuate is wrong and insulting.

I've sold old game books on eBay to pay for food and travel expenses to get to Gen Con. I spent 12+ hours on a Greyhound Bus several years in a row to Milwaukee to attend Gen Con. I've flown, I've driven, I've bummed rides with friends, I've driven part way there and then carpooled with friends. There is no excuse, none, that I will accept for not attending Gen Con or Origins, especially if you're going to sit there and despairage the work that gets put into the con. As I said above, put up or shut the fuck up. You get your ass to the convention, don't whine about airfare unless you're flying in from fucking Australia or Russia or some shit like that, because there are several die hard Shadowrun fans who've made that flight on more than one occasion. You get here, and we'll put you to work for 12 game sessions. We'll see what kind of tune you're singing then.

Now drop the damn subject, because you're starting to piss off every single one of us who busts our ass at these convention for ungrateful little fanboys like yourself.

Bull

No you're not. Not even close.





They are all saying it's 8-12:1 event ratio for each GM brought in, yet you say their numbers translate to a four to one ratio. On top of the time ratio, a BT GM only needs to know one or two books for most events (I believe level 1/2 rules are still considered the standard, with the possibility of a second book to demo a new product), while SR GMs need to know the rules in eight books, plus the mission they are running, so it is easier for a BT GM to handle the stress of 30+ hours of gaming in four days compared to SR GMs.

Not really. You completely ignored the part where I said a BT GM could run multiple tables simultaneously. Unless you've worked a major con, you've no idea what it's likely dealing with the background noise and distractions. It's no more difficult to handle multiple different wargame event tables than it is to run a single RPG table.

I can't speak to what happened this year, as I wasn't involved. However, historically, I can, without question, tell you that the BT community steps up for these events MUCH more readily than the SR community.
Getting GMs, for any game system, to volunteer and then actually show up to run their events is an exercise in herding cats. Getting them for Shadowrun is much more difficult than any other system with which I have personal experience. (Which is to say, more than 40.)

I go to play and run games. I don't really know anyone offline in the area, so seeing people isn't much of a motivator.


Have a Ricolla. Wasn't that you at the marathon Shadowrun session that ran for twelve+ hours? It's been so many years I've forgotten. Granted that I'm not a kid anymore, but we're not talking about twelve events per GM at Origins. We're talking about four or less.


Local gaming stores. Meetup.com. Hell, I've advertised for games in the local alternative papers and on Craigslist. You're a smart guy, Bull. Don't "pull a Cain".


You say that simply because you know there's no way my handicapped butt can get onto a Greyhound bus. I may be mistaken, but you may have witnessed me pull off twelve hours of Convention GMing. I don't go anymore, there's not much in it for me and with my disability it becomes tricky to maintain my health. I will make you this much of a deal, though: I'll continue to organize local events, and continue to pull GM's out of my butt as needed. You continue to work hard, do the good work that I know you do, and try not to let an off-the-cuff observation needle you so badly. Deal?

He did indeed. He was quite the hero of the forums for said action. And sort of laughed at a bit for the insanity.

Edited: Am I just missing a delete button here?

Knock it off. Sick of reading constant arguing for arguing sake.

OK, let's pretend that I added it in, for anti-flame purposes. Fact is, because they know BT better, and they know BT people better, it's easier for them to get BattleTech GM's into the fray. And it's harder for them to get Shadowrun GM's. If that explains the difference, then why not say so? Some small apology on DSF or on the programs would probably suffice.

Arguing for the sake of arguing is the national pastime of Dumpshock and anyone who disagrees with that isnt pink mohawk enough for this site!

Arguing for the sake of arguing annoys the moderators...

Edited: Nope. Not going to do it.

Just because it's harder to recruit doesn't mean it's impossible. I regularly have to pull GMs out of my butt for a regular event. Finding GMs for special events is easy, bribing them makes it even easier. It's not about community turnout, it's about recruitment. If you're not getting enough people, you're not recruiting hard enough. This philosophy backs many sales operations, as well as the recruiting goals for the US Armed forces; so don't say they don't know what they're talking about.

Edit: D.M., you may as well just leave it alone. I seem to keep getting to your posts before you can delete them....

Since this thread is utterly off topic, I'm going to lock it down. Anyone who would like to continue discussing forthcoming SR products is welcome to start a new thread.

Edit: Removed because I shouldn't post in locked threads even though I can.