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The Dragon Girl
QUOTE (augmentin @ Jun 16 2010, 09:04 AM) *
I am offended that someone thinks boobs will make me more likely to buy the book, disappointed at the decision to alienate a potential female audience, sad that I can't buy this book because I'd be too embarrassed to read it in front of my wife or daughter, questioning the integrity/ethics of using sex to sell a product (and this is especially puzzling since JMH has shown a high degree of integrity through this whole mess and we keep hearing about what a stand up guy RNB is), and refer back to Tom Dowd's thoughts on the subject.




>.> I'm a girl and I approve of boobies \o/
Sengir
QUOTE (The Dragon Girl @ Jun 16 2010, 06:26 PM) *
...oh idonno.. aside from the stupidity of going into a gun fight with no body armor..which has -always- been a problem with fantasy and scifi artwork..

And after 4A I thought Shadowrun had finally grown up and adopted a more mature (in he meaning of "grown up" not "tits") art style...

QUOTE
I'd do it nyahnyah.gif

Run a B/W filter over it and change the font for the title to some illegible scribble, that could be the official black metal sourcebook biggrin.gif
hermit
QUOTE
See, here's where I disagree with you. I think the cover for Attitude is frelling brilliant, because it takes all the bad ideas Hollywood and the entertainment industry has in general, and amps them up a notch. It shows the absurdity of the media in the Sixth World, and just how badly they get their facts. I think the painting nails the artifice of the media in general, and in the 6th World in particular.

Karl Kombatmage does nothing for me.

The painting itself is also, for my own tastes, brilliantly done.

Well, good for you. I disagree there. wink.gif

The Hollywood emphasis deepens my suspicion that this is essentially an LA citybook (which is all but useless to me). I just hope Pegasus devotes a longer write-up to cover everything that is not Hollywood then.

QUOTE
So because you don't see the director or the cameraman, you're automatically sure they're not there? Whatever.

I always assume everything that is relevant to a picture is hinted at or shown (or missing in an obvious way). This is not the case here. Assuming the cover wants to show something like a set, a hint at that would have been really useful.

QUOTE
It's 2072 and I live in a media drenched society. It's cheap to look the part and I crave the attention. Did I mention I'm a shadowrunner?

There're flies with a longer life expectancy than you, then. At least in my games where publicity usually is the last thing you need for a variety of reasons too obvious to state.
RunnerPaul
QUOTE ([jackal] @ Jun 16 2010, 10:30 AM) *

Honestly after Exalted: Savant and Sorcerer, I don't think any book cover phases me anymore.

Having your book lumped into the same category of the one listed above is not a good thing.
Demonseed Elite
I just can't get that worked up over the cover art. It's not my favorite piece of cover art in the history of the game line, that's for sure, but that has little to do with the woman in the piece.

Excellent cover art (and interior art and layout) definitely help sell me on a book, but I don't typically judge a book by its cover.
Dr.Rockso
QUOTE (RunnerPaul @ Jun 16 2010, 02:02 PM) *
Having your book lumped into the same category of the one listed above is not a good thing.

After looking up said book I think I can safely say they don't deserve to be in the same category.
hermit

QUOTE
After looking up said book I think I can safely say they don't deserve to be in the same category.

Uhm, no. I don't like it, but it's not that.... grautitous.
Adam
QUOTE (hermit @ Jun 16 2010, 01:58 PM) *
The Hollywood emphasis deepens my suspicion that this is essentially an LA citybook (which is all but useless to me). I just hope Pegasus devotes a longer write-up to cover everything that is not Hollywood then.

Last I saw anything relating to Attitude!, it wasn't an LA Citybook.
Dread Moores
Hey, nice classy update today, Jason. Nice to see that Sandstorm affiliated products were pointed out.

Edit: I'd also love to know where the information came from that Attitude is Hollywood focused/LA citybook. I haven't seen anything that even mentioned LA yet.
hermit
It'S my own personal suspicion with the Hollywood centric theme of the book.
Dread Moores
*shrugs* I guess. I don't immediately associate a book related to the modern day entertainment of the 2070's with Hollywood. There is actually a world-wide entertainment industry. Then again, I didn't get the feel (from the very short description) that it was specific to any one region's entertainment industry, more general information on running alternative campaigns/characters.
Deadmannumberone
QUOTE (darthmord @ Jun 16 2010, 08:11 AM) *
In many ways it's a good thing that he's this vociferous about Shadowrun.

Why?

Because it shows his passion for the game and its setting. You **WANT** writers who are passionate about their work. They are far more likely to invest themselves in the work to make it sing & shine than some pay-me-write hack who doesn't care about the material.

Think about your favorite hobby. How much effort do you put into it?

Now think about your most hated activity. How much effort do you put into that?

See my point? An excellent writer will be passionate about his/her work, warts or otherwise.


Just because you're passionate about something doesn't mean you have to go off like a raving loon when you don't get your way, and just because you go off like a raving loon when you don't get your way doesn't mean you're passionate about what you're doing, and either way, no one wants to work with someone who argues over every creative change that you may want to make to their contribution to a communal work.
JM Hardy
QUOTE (Adam @ Jun 16 2010, 01:16 PM) *
Last I saw anything relating to Attitude!, it wasn't an LA Citybook.


Adam is right, which is something I never tire of saying. Attitude is not an LA city book.

Jason H.
Doc Chase
Hmm. A Hail Mary, perhaps, but is some of this SR finery going to be available at GenCon?
Platinum
QUOTE (Deadmannumberone @ Jun 16 2010, 03:25 PM) *
Just because you're passionate about something doesn't mean you have to go off like a raving loon when you don't get your way, and just because you go off like a raving loon when you don't get your way doesn't mean you're passionate about what you're doing, and either way, no one wants to work with someone who argues over every creative change that you may want to make to their contribution to a communal work.


No one is acting like a raving loon. I would rather work with a headstrong genius than an incompetent fraud. There is so much that still hasn't been translated to here from the dev forums. Bobby's work speaks for itself, and his passion.

Long and the short is there was a personality conflict that was not resolved correctly.

The problem started with divergent visions. It grew and festered, most likely compounded with trust breaking behaviours (on both sides). If it cannot be unified it needs to be handled carefully, and I am guessing it wasn't. I am guessing that conflict management or negotiations were not exercised, or the rolls were glitched.
Dread Moores
QUOTE (Platinum @ Jun 16 2010, 03:40 PM) *
Bobby's work speaks for itself, and his passion.


And here's the funny thing about that. It speaks differently to different people. There are actually people out there *shock and horror* that dislike his style and some of his work. That doesn't make them wrong. It's an opinion. Sort of like Ancient History's views on the current material. It's an opinion, not gospel.
last_of_the_great_mikeys
QUOTE (JM Hardy @ Jun 16 2010, 11:28 AM) *
Adam is right, which is something I never tire of saying. Attitude is not an LA city book.

Jason H.


Adam is always right!

Ya know, it'd be nice if there was some Nerps™ product placement on the cover of something...
hermit
QUOTE
And here's the funny thing about that. It speaks differently to different people. There are actually people out there *shock and horror* that dislike his style and some of his work.

And then there are people who like his style and most of his general ideas, but not some of his work. Like, y'know, me. It's a vast and complex place, this world.
Saint Sithney
QUOTE (Platinum @ Jun 16 2010, 12:40 PM) *
I would rather work with a headstrong genius than an incompetent fraud.


Before folk get knickers twisted, I'm just going to clarify here that you weren't calling JH an incompetent fraud.
rite? indifferent.gif


As to the cover image, I'm more upset that she has her bipod deployed, her optics uncapped and an suck-ass vietnam-era box magazine. Shame on her!
Bull
QUOTE (BlueMax @ Jun 16 2010, 11:26 AM) *
Rationality is not approved on Dumpshock.

Cats
Dogs
Living together
Pandemonium.

BlueMax


Mass Hysteria, not pandemonium. Get your quote right! smile.gif

Bull
Omenowl
My complaint about the covers both for Arsenal and Augmentation are they are too busy and appears to be flat. I like the war book a bit better because it has a lot of subtlety where the more you look at the artwork the more you discover, but it is still pleasing to view. Runner's companion is an probably the best example of good artwork. Your eye is drawn to one location and the artwork has depth rather than being flat. On War! The funny thing is my eye was drawn to the guy on the left because it represents more of how I see my characters.

Overall I think the fully clothed elf on SR4a is sexier than any of the other characters I have seen on the various covers.
Martin_DeVries_Institute
While I'm generally not a fan of the SR4 coverwork--Augmentation, I'm looking at you--I can at least stand them. I've seen worse covers. What really bugs me is some of the interior art. Look at the metavariant pictures in the Runner's Companion (pp 47 and 56). Jeezum Crow, it's pretty bad.
I'm just glad the days of Laubenstein are gone. Your mileage may vary, but I for one could not stand his artstyle.
As for bad covers? Look at Dragons of the Sixth World. It's incredible artwork, mind you, I would really enjoy it--except the dragon has nipple piercings. WTF?
Platinum
QUOTE (Saint Sithney @ Jun 16 2010, 04:11 PM) *
Before folk get knickers twisted, I'm just going to clarify here that you weren't calling JH an incompetent fraud.
rite? indifferent.gif


Correct. My statement wasn't tied to anyone. It was a general statement about personalities.
hobgoblin
QUOTE (toturi @ Jun 16 2010, 03:43 AM) *
This smells like... Shadowland shit. Makes me nostalgic.

Real personalities, real conflict, all emo! nyahnyah.gif

sadly, it makes AH seem no better then ol' frank.
hobgoblin
QUOTE (Platinum @ Jun 16 2010, 07:06 PM) *

looks like boba fett with boobs. Marginally better then the similar art in D20 future, simply because the armor do not feature a bare midriff (tho the black catsuit is, well, black colored "skin").

btw, checked the video she was from. Ugh, can they think up nothing better then to give the sith star destroyers and tie fighters? Heck, the main jedi of the video seems to the packing a companion droid not that dissimilar from R2. And here i thought the best that have happened star wars in recent times is the clone wars series that basically show the jedi fighting side by side with what eventually becomes the empire, complete with first gen star destroyers and storm troopers.

sorry, had to get that hammered out. rant over.
Aristotle
War! is going to disapoint me. I was really hoping for a more. Hot spots around the globe with plot seeds, rules for military campaigns, military grade everything... I dunno. What I'm hearing doesn't make it the complete guide to war in the gritty near future that I wanted.

The almanac... I think I want what AH wants. So much of the world remains undescribed, and I'd love to have seen interesting factoids and plot seeds for places ppreviously unknown to the game. I get that page count was an issue, but break the thing up into 2 or 3 books and release all of them within 12 to 18 months.
Adam
QUOTE (Martin_DeVries_Institute @ Jun 16 2010, 08:30 PM) *
Look at Dragons of the Sixth World. It's incredible artwork, mind you, I would really enjoy it--except the dragon has nipple piercings. WTF?


When a dragon shows up at your piercing studio, you do what he asks. The marketing opportunities are great--"We've pierced dragons, we can pierce you!"
KarmaInferno
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Jun 16 2010, 09:36 PM) *
btw, checked the video she was from. Ugh, can they think up nothing better then to give the sith star destroyers and tie fighters? Heck, the main jedi of the video seems to the packing a companion droid not that dissimilar from R2. And here i thought the best that have happened star wars in recent times is the clone wars series that basically show the jedi fighting side by side with what eventually becomes the empire, complete with first gen star destroyers and storm troopers.


Star Wars has always gone with a certain "look" for Empire and Republic Alliance ships, troops and equipment. It's actually deliberate - the viewer can immediately identify who's ships they are looking at without having it explained.

The droid was there as a nod the previous two Star Wars games that Bioware made - it's a virtual copy of the main droid character from Knights of the Old Republic.

There's a new video they just put out entitled "Hope" that has another Action Girl that doesn't show much skin.

Back to the subject, does anyone else have a problem with Caution Tape Girl's WIERD posture? Or is it just cos I'm an artist?




-karma
Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ Jun 16 2010, 10:49 PM) *
Star Wars has always gone with a certain "look" for Empire and Republic Alliance ships, troops and equipment. It's actually deliberate - the viewer can immediately identify who's ships they are looking at without having it explained.

The droid was there as a nod the previous two Star Wars games that Bioware made - it's a virtual copy of the main droid character from Knights of the Old Republic.

There's a new video they just put out entitled "Hope" that has another Action Girl that doesn't show much skin.

Back to the subject, does anyone else have a problem with Coution Tape Girl's WIERD posture? Or is it just cos I'm an artist?




-karma


There is something off with her posture and her face to me. I don't know what, but I get some sort of primal this is wrong feeling when I look at her. But I am not an artist so I have no idea what it could be or how to express it if I did.
James Taima
QUOTE (Zen Shooter01 @ Jun 15 2010, 12:45 PM) *
The 6th World Almanac sounds amazing...too good to be true, even. Forty nations listed? I'd love to see it.

Attitude. That brings a tear to the eye to those of us old enough to remember Shadowbeat.

War. Cry havoc. I admire SR4 for having the nerve to go in a direction the game has never explored before.

Where do I put my money down?



I remember Shadowbeat grinbig.gif

Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Jun 16 2010, 09:36 PM) *
looks like boba fett with boobs. Marginally better then the similar art in D20 future, simply because the armor do not feature a bare midriff (tho the black catsuit is, well, black colored "skin").

btw, checked the video she was from. Ugh, can they think up nothing better then to give the sith star destroyers and tie fighters? Heck, the main jedi of the video seems to the packing a companion droid not that dissimilar from R2. And here i thought the best that have happened star wars in recent times is the clone wars series that basically show the jedi fighting side by side with what eventually becomes the empire, complete with first gen star destroyers and storm troopers.

sorry, had to get that hammered out. rant over.



They actually tie it in somewhere in there games that the star destroyers and tie fighters being sith is because it is sith as the race, culture technology. They then imply that Sidious in the movies like what episode 2 is getting them made due to the information he has on that sith tech. The entire Star Wars universe is a universe where tech has not really improved or changed in thousands and thousands of years. There are lots of really old ships and tech working and lying around.
hobgoblin
QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ Jun 17 2010, 04:49 AM) *
Star Wars has always gone with a certain "look" for Empire and Republic Alliance ships, troops and equipment. It's actually deliberate - the viewer can immediately identify who's ships they are looking at without having it explained.

The droid was there as a nod the previous two Star Wars games that Bioware made - it's a virtual copy of the main droid character from Knights of the Old Republic.

There's a new video they just put out entitled "Hope" that has another Action Girl that doesn't show much skin.

So its a black hat, white hat kind of thing? Should have guessed as i think Lucas once said he was trying to recreate the Buck Rogers kind of epic with Star Wars.

Interesting video btw. First for the clone wars kind of thing with the republic troops wearing stormtrooper style helmets, and the sith fielding combat droids. Then there is the female jedi packing a dual saber. And did she pull the force equivalent of a hadouken at the end? ouch!

Faith partially restored i guess.
Martin_DeVries_Institute
QUOTE (Adam @ Jun 16 2010, 07:02 PM) *
When a dragon shows up at your piercing studio, you do what he asks. The marketing opportunities are great--"We've pierced dragons, we can pierce you!"

Well in that case, thank Ghost it decided not to get anything else pierced.
hobgoblin
QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist @ Jun 17 2010, 04:55 AM) *
They actually tie it in somewhere in there games that the star destroyers and tie fighters being sith is because it is sith as the race, culture technology. They then imply that Sidious in the movies like what episode 2 is getting them made due to the information he has on that sith tech. The entire Star Wars universe is a universe where tech has not really improved or changed in thousands and thousands of years. There are lots of really old ships and tech working and lying around.

i must have missed that particular hint, thanks.
KarmaInferno
I think he means the Emperor was getting a lot of his designs from ancient Sith tech.




-karma
Adam
QUOTE (Martin_DeVries_Institute @ Jun 16 2010, 11:12 PM) *
Well in that case, thank Ghost it decided not to get anything else pierced.

18% of dragons not pictured on that cover do.
hobgoblin
QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ Jun 17 2010, 05:16 AM) *
I think he means the Emperor was getting a lot of his designs from ancient Sith tech.

maybe so, but has that been stated anywhere in the movies or similar?
BlueMax
All this Star Wars talk, does this mean LightSabers are coming to Shadowrun?

BlueMax
hobgoblin
well, we have to replace the laser axe with something.

how about a sword with a blade made out of cutter nanites on kamikaze?
RunnerPaul
QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist @ Jun 16 2010, 09:51 PM) *
But I am not an artist so I have no idea what it could be or how to express it if I did.


I showed it to my girlfriend who is an artist, and aside from her laughing and saying she "could tell" when I told her it was going to be cover art for an RPG supplement, had the following to say:

QUOTE (artist girlfriend)
The anatomy's pretty awful, the composition's not all that great (the black guy looks like he's coming out of the chick in front's body), there's too many light sources, and the guy at the desk looks completely out of place, as does the chick with the mohawk who I can barely see. the color palette is very good though.


I then told her why I was asking by showing her Shinobi's post, and she expanded:

QUOTE
It's a primal wrong feeling, because the body and the pose don't look natural. Not only is the pose stiff and fake, the body is unnaturally off.


Another thing that I just now noticed was the the bucket of swords right smack in the middle of the piece includes Kit Rae's Luciendar - Sword of Light from the Swords of the Ancients series he did for United Cutlery, who retain copyright on that design and its likenesses. Now I don't know how rabidly their lawyers protect that design, but I do know that they've recently licensed it to appear in the videogame RPG Two Worlds 2.
Jaid
QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ Jun 16 2010, 09:49 PM) *
Back to the subject, does anyone else have a problem with Caution Tape Girl's WIERD posture? Or is it just cos I'm an artist?

-karma



QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist @ Jun 16 2010, 09:51 PM) *
There is something off with her posture and her face to me. I don't know what, but I get some sort of primal this is wrong feeling when I look at her. But I am not an artist so I have no idea what it could be or how to express it if I did.


i agree completely. her face is almost like a sneer, i would say, but not quite. but yes, it bugs me too. i call uncanny valley.
The Monk
RunnerPaul, I don't want to step on your girlfriend artist's toes, but doesn't the composition seem off because this may be a piece meant to wrap around the book?

I mean if you divide the picture in half, looking at it as two different panels, then it makes a hell of a lot more sense. Also, look at the shape of the piece, it seems a little too long to all fit onto the front of a book.

As far as the subject, I think if it looks a little awkward and out of place, staged and over done, then it works. It's supposed to represent a 2070s Shadowrun version of TMZ, Perez Hilton, Real Housewives of Orange County on steroids after all.


RunnerPaul
Hey, it's just an opinion. Everyone's got one.
Cardul
Issues with the piece:
1) Blatantly obvious boob implants. The breasts just do not seem natural. If they were that big naturally, they
would definately not be keeping the same relationship to the shoulders, especially since there appears to be no
actual support for them.

2) For her over all build, her arms are thin, almost emaciated looking.

3) The bone visible in her shoulders to her neck? If that is supposed to be the clavicle, it is over a bit far.

4) I am going to guess that the...things in her neck are actually implants of some sort.

That is all I see at a casual glance...

KCKitsune
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Jun 16 2010, 10:10 PM) *
So its a black hat, white hat kind of thing? Should have guessed as i think Lucas once said he was trying to recreate the Buck Rogers kind of epic with Star Wars.

Interesting video btw. First for the clone wars kind of thing with the republic troops wearing stormtrooper style helmets, and the sith fielding combat droids. Then there is the female jedi packing a dual saber. And did she pull the force equivalent of a hadouken at the end? ouch!

Faith partially restored i guess.

I wish for once that a person using a double-bladed lightsaber would NOT have it cut in half!
IKerensky
QUOTE (hermit @ Jun 16 2010, 03:10 PM) *
No, annoyed by the idea that men are some sort of slug with certain reflexes and will buy things because, hey, boobs.



"Hey, Boobks ...<flick>,<flick>,<flick>,... DUH !"


*thanks for giving me a new word to play with : Boobks smile.gif (not to be mistaken for Bookbs nyahnyah.gif)
IKerensky
QUOTE (Method @ Jun 16 2010, 04:01 PM) *
I will agree on Augmentation US = crap, Augmentation Germany = awesome.

But Companion is horrid. Just... horrid.


Why did you think so ? It was Compagnon's that sell the game to my Girlfriend, she actually say "Oh, an Elf goth ? can I play an Elf Girl Goth with tatoos and dual Uzi ?" (She is big time fan of Lara Croft too wink.gif ).
Grinder
QUOTE (Martin_DeVries_Institute @ Jun 17 2010, 02:30 AM) *
While I'm generally not a fan of the SR4 coverwork--Augmentation, I'm looking at you--I can at least stand them. I've seen worse covers. What really bugs me is some of the interior art. Look at the metavariant pictures in the Runner's Companion (pp 47 and 56). Jeezum Crow, it's pretty bad.


Yep, that are a two of the too many examples of bad interior art. Seriously, who approved the metavariant pictures? eek.gif
hermit
Matt Groening. wink.gif
IKerensky
Well, since FASA era I am more or less expecting some very very bad artworks to make their way into sourcebooks... But usually they are far more integrated than that. But I agree thoses pieces were nearly as bad as some Earthdawn Gamemaster Pack piece of crap.
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