I'm no expert, but from the encounters I've had, color layout vs b&w is barely different costwise, color art is about two-three times as much as b&w, however art is a very minor expense for a full size sourcebook (outside of a DnD monster manual), in total development might see a 20-30% increase in cost. In the US printing sourcebook type material in full color is three to five times the price of b&w depending on volume.

I do not know:

all 3 books had potential to be great, but i do not belive they are:

6WA: 40 countries is just about Europe, North Amerika and Asia, so all the contries in SoE. SoA, SoNA. If you do not have these books, good for you. But the concept AH suggests woud be really great.

War!: The concept is flawed: First of: No crunch in setting books was one of the premises of SR4, Now this will be broken again. Moreover War! should have been a book about Military and Mercenaries, not a Bogota Book (which was allready discriped in Feral Cities!). In the book should have been some Warzones, each with a few pages, e.g. Bogota, something in central africa, Russian, central china, desert wars... at least 1 Hotspot in every continent. So it is jus a book about Bogota with some gear in the back, to get better sales...

cya
Tycho

Well, first, let us all see what the books are before passing judgement?

Sure, 6WA or War, or Attitude, or ANY book could be better. Also, I am not sure War! is a setting book.
Actually, from the description, I am not sure what kind of book it is.

I will wait for the books to be out, then I will get them, and make my decision on if I like them or not from
there. Personally, I am kind of hoping War! is more like a redone Fields of Fire.

War! seems to be another misbegotten project that was changed over and over again, and probably will suffer some of the issues CG did. I hope there is, or will be, a plan for the wrapping up of the 2A war storyline. It might even try and wrap up the GC stuff. However, since Horizon and [mucho secreto book] seem to come before ... I guess it will be left dangling. I hope at least a little less indignantly than TT does.

Attitude has potential for greatness, but I kind of fear it will be tied too much to LA, which is closing up on the Berlin setting in pure inanity. Still, a long, LONG overdue product. I have hopes for this.

6WA seems to have wanted to be much more than is viable, which is sad, but it at least lays the groundwork and defines which nations exist, so these can later be explored. Tie-in ebooks Jason mentioned might help there too.

I'm disappointed that Tits McGee is going to be an actual book cover, and wasn't just a one-off art piece vetoed by the art director but kept around to pass off on some unsuspecting trade magazine.

Forget Caution-tape Lass....what about the....woman? in the background? Dwarf Ghoul?

It's some of each, but more printing than development. The layout isn't actually all that much more time consuming, but buying color art is more expensive than buying B/W art, and of course we have to pay for any text. That's not a huge deal, but the printing of color books is considerably more expensive than printing B/W books, and that's where the real boost in expenses comes in.

Jason H.

Goth dwarf.

But - since we're analysing that image now - what kind of a person emerging from a mist cloud is that behind Titty Galore? A Massai Vampire? And what is weapons geek person doing there? And Minicopter?

Bobby's issues with this book are 100% my fault. We went to the mat arguing this out, a bit over a year ago. The book covers as many countries as I could possibly fit into it. My initial specification on it had quite a few less than were ultimately written (well, written as of last summer), but I managed to persuade TPTB to up the page count a bit so that we could add in more.

Yes, there was a really old design document that called for more, as Bobby indicates. However, once I did a word count and page count break down, that design document called for a 700+ page book. At the end of the day, a 700+ page Shadowrun book is not economically viable.

I made specific design decisions on the almanac, in conjunction with RNB and John Helfers. At that time, it was still a pretty "coffee table" book with maps, flags, etc. as Bobby ntoes. However, I last worked on this project just under 12 months ago. I don't know what's happened with it since.

Well, it'd have been the first bullet proof shadowrun book at least . .
But the encumbrance on that one would have been horrific . .

/begin rant

I am offended that someone thinks boobs will make me more likely to buy the book, disappointed at the decision to alienate a potential female audience, sad that I can't buy this book because I'd be too embarrassed to read it in front of my wife or daughter, questioning the integrity/ethics of using sex to sell a product (and this is especially puzzling since JMH has shown a high degree of integrity through this whole mess and we keep hearing about what a stand up guy RNB is), and refer back to Tom Dowd's thoughts on the subject.

Yes, I know this is hypocritical given the cover of SR2. I guess the difference is that daisy duke bikini elf mage is a part of the art versus caution tape girl's boobs being the central piece of the art. In other words, as mentioned above, I wouldn't be embarrassed to read SR2 in front of my wife or daughter. That's kinda my default soft-porn sniff test. I'm not classifying caution tape girl as soft porn, it's just...disappointing and offensive that CGL/IMR thinks this will make us more likely to buy the book. Maybe they're right, but seriously? Go buy Maxim or so just turn off the content protection on google images. Let's leave this crap out of shadowrun.

/end rant

Sorry.

EDIT: One more thing. I've exchanged PMs with JMH and I really do think he's a good guy in an impossibly bad (though improving?) situation. That just makes this cover that much more confusing. My $0.02.

Well, that'll pretty much mean every piece of artwork for females in SR is tossed out the window. This isn't an issue specific to SR in any way. Also, for me, caution tape girl isn't really any worse than most of the rest. I do think like much of the other "sex sells" artwork that it just isn't very great quality artwork. Nothing will be as awful as the cover art for Augmentation though.

Much thank-yous, Jason!

Hmmm...the concept of "a bit of everything" doesn't sound that bad , I'm just a bit disappointed that it's only going to be Bogota and the war there. Would have preferred some more employment opportunities around the globe instead of just one conflict.


PS: So the rubber doll pic is called "AttitudeCover_Preview.jpg"...what does that pic (all of it) have to do with a "culture" sourcebook?

The main focus is Bogota, but some other hotspots will get covered in brief.

Jason H.

I disagree that every depiction of a female in Shadowrun art has been exploitive. The elf from the cover of SR4A is a good recent example of one that isn't. I could give dozens of more counter-examples, if I thought it was worth my time to try to extensively debunk such an absurd statement.

I like the cover, boobs and all (especially the boobs). For one, it is artistically solid, unlike A LOT of other crappy art we've seen over the years (<cough> Arsenal </cough>). And let's not forget the cover of the first culture/media book: Shadowbeat had hands down one of the worst covers in SR publication history.

Besides, I think it's fitting. The book is presumably about stuff like image, fashion, cosmetic surgery and well, Arttitude. Boobs appears to have all of those *and a gun*. Seriously? What's not to like?

Now, admittedly that is a cultural difference, but I'm not so sure this cover would alienate the female audience (women ought to be used to the look of boobs, after all). What I Agree with oyu is the offensiveness that this would entive the male audience. Quite frankly, it does not entice me. I'm a lot more indifferent to nakedness in general than Augmentin (I'd sigh and shrug just the same if that was a full frontal almost nude male on the cover), but uhm ... try for the content. Try for a cover that tells a story. This kind of entice-the-geeky-male boobaliciousness is essentially like porn. It has nothing but shapely naked skin to offer, and is, apart from that, empty. And that is just not enough for me.


Considering Ghost is wearing almost as little as Sally in that pic, I fail to see how this is as boobalicious ... wait. Actually, he is more dressed. Funny, I never in 20 years paid any attention to the dressedness of the characters on the picture. I coulda sworn Ghost's Vest was open.


I see what you're getting at. And to a point I agree. I wouldn't qualify it as porn, but it shares a certain shallowness and offensiveness in being such a blatant attempt to manipulate.


No. The worst SR cover ever still is American Arsenal, hands down. Shadowbeat's isn't exactly a pinnacleof SR cover design either, though.

Yes, it is artistically solid, but for a much more artistically solid sexy woman image, I refer you to the Companion. Even the German Augmentations cover (caution, work and stuff) is better - although it technically goes much farther into territory that would be considered porn.

And there are a number of good international covers as well - Running Wild, for instance, the Companion, the SR4A cover come to mind. This is not one of them.

Worrying about exploitation of women on the cover, really? I see more revealing clothing on an evening walk through just about any campus town, even in the middle of winter and sub 0 temps. The quality of the art is not what I would like on many levels, but complaining about it being exploitive when it's no more revealing than what many women choose to wear in the modern world is a bit silly.

No, annoyed by the idea that men are some sort of slug with certain reflexes and will buy things because, hey, boobs.

In many ways it's a good thing that he's this vociferous about Shadowrun.

Why?

Because it shows his passion for the game and its setting. You **WANT** writers who are passionate about their work. They are far more likely to invest themselves in the work to make it sing & shine than some pay-me-write hack who doesn't care about the material.

Think about your favorite hobby. How much effort do you put into it?

Now think about your most hated activity. How much effort do you put into that?

See my point? An excellent writer will be passionate about his/her work, warts or otherwise.

The moment we have trolls boobs, people will ask back for the boobs of old.
Also: xkcd

Honestly? Do we know the idea is that Caution Tape Lass is specifically meant to "entice geeky male gamers"? Also, did not someone mention
somewhere that that cover was made by a woman? Heck...I see more then that in the lobby of the hotel I work at!

For the record, BTW: I hate the Augmentation cover more then the Arsenal cover(actually...I like the Arsenal cover..and just think the Augmentation cover..
well, darn it! Could the guy have, at least, recoloured the Aiko 3 MechGirl outfit? Seriously: http://www.daz3d.com/i/3d-models/0/mech-gi...;cat=&_m=d)

I mean, I am not going to buy the book because it has a woman who's image consultant said "We need you to look like a whore." I am going to buy it
because the information in it is useful.

Rationality is not approved on Dumpshock.

Cats
Dogs
Living together
Pandemonium.

BlueMax

With the worst cover ever, I meant Augmentation US. I always seem to mix it and Arsenal up. Mea Culpa.


Just, an Orc Rapper or something to that effect, or a Brawl match, or something not looking like Titties &Guns 2072, would have been a better cover. This looks like Attitude focuses far too much on LA "shadowrunning" to go where Shadowbeat has gone long before, even. If you want to read more than "buy me because hey, boobs" into the cover, that is.

First, aren't we in like 2074 already?
Second, where do I buy this title?

For... research purposes...

BlueMax
/I subscribe to Heavy Metal
// I get my Titties and Guns 5-6 times a year
/// Depending on how sober Eastmann is

Honestly after Exalted: Savant and Sorcerer, I don't think any book cover phases me anymore.

When I first saw the attitude cover I thought this has to be the new cover for the redone cover of Arsenal. Then I heard that those redo's weren't getting done. So I thought all those guns...hmm War maybe? Then I hear attitude, an odd fit but I for one don't really have a comment on content of the pic, it's well done.

I will agree on Augmentation US = crap, Augmentation Germany = awesome.

But Companion is horrid. Just... horrid.

We begged to use the old art after we saw the new art in RC. Begged.

And they did, didn't they? Since I am a bit out of the loop with German SR, what was the new pic supposed to be like?

BLah, none of these books interest me at all. I don't care for these Settings sourcebooks because in 2 years there will be new books out that either change everything in these ones, or rehash the same stuff. Update core rulebooks instead -- didn't Augmentation and Street magic come out around 5 years ago? Surely tech and magic have advanced since then.

Oh yeah, as for the cover art with the caution tape woman: do they find people who have never played SR before to make the covers or what? How can the internal art be so good (SR3 excluded) and the covers SOOOOOOOOOO bad. The original SR4 BBB cover was TERRIBLE with the bald dude, but at least SR4A's is more in tune with the game. However, my god, Arsenal and Augmentation are so unbelievably bad that I kind of have to assume that the art director got those pictures for free.

The problem is not that a cover shows a scantly clad woman. The problem is the combination of insane Lolo Ferrari boobs, pinup posture and "me love you loooong time"-facial expression with some sort runner or soldier type. If the cover was a half-naked streetwalker I wouldn't bother and it would fit the scenario, just this "gun babe" theme sucks.

So...this image, which strikes me as a 6th world media attempt to sell a trid program about "shadowrunners" (and did I mention the word "sell"?) to a bunch of corporate wageslaves who need a little excitement in their life, isn't appropriate to a book about media exploitation? Really?

I'm mostly just watching the show, and it's not great. It's painful, in fact, to watch some of the stuff going on in here. Not all nostalgia is good....

Which art director?


It isn't exactly good. I'd have prefered something like this.

Why? Because its impossible to build a character that is both seductive and effective with a firearm? IMG the ability to look like a streetwalker (when appropriate) is an advantage.

Besides, I've never seen a female PC described as "ugly" or "homely" with an unremarkable body.

She doesn't look very firearms proficient to me. More like a model who's holding a gun in a way vaguely like she knows from action movies.

And sure, you can build a character to be proficient in seduction and killing. Mossad has a cadre of such women, too. Thing is, you cannot be seductive in the middle of a firefight, so wearing a boob window to battle is just stupid.

And sorry, I fail to see very much media relevance here. There isn't even a cameraman or director prsent, or some sort of recording equipment. Weird for this to be a set. It looks more like some sort of cheezy shadowrunner team cliché an artist unfamiliar with the setting might come up with.


I have. A couple, actually. There're also a couple in the novels.

Hello ... http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Shae_Vizla

Hello ... http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Shae_Vizla

Yes, she looks remarkably different from Attitude Bombshell.

For the same reason you wouldn't paint some guns on these guys and put the result on a book cover

That'd be so damn Retro, it'd actually be good.

See, here's where I disagree with you. I think the cover for Attitude is frelling brilliant, because it takes all the bad ideas Hollywood and the entertainment industry has in general, and amps them up a notch. It shows the absurdity of the media in the Sixth World, and just how badly they get their facts. I think the painting nails the artifice of the media in general, and in the 6th World in particular.

Karl Kombatmage does nothing for me.

The painting itself is also, for my own tastes, brilliantly done.

...oh idonno.. aside from the stupidity of going into a gun fight with no body armor..which has -always- been a problem with fantasy and scifi artwork.. I'd do it



I have, actually, I've -done- it too.

Really? I hardly think she was put on the cover to sell with the power of boob. If that was the case, I'm sure they would have shown more than just a little cleavage. As people have said, walk around outside and you can easily see at least 30% more breast on most people. If anything is off putting about her it's the way she accessorizes(caution tape?) and her over-emphasized neck tendons(just me, or are they 2 sizes 2 big?). Shadowrun has had some truly horrendous looking art( tentacle pants? Augmentation cover? The entire Rotten Apple pdf?). I think the entire spread fits the Attitude theme nicely and I think this is a step in the right direction. My .02 , for what it's worth.

Again, I would be interested in buying this product. I am a child of the original Shadowrun, set in the late 80's. This would be awesome.

To the group as a whole: Sex will always sell. Sexiness will always provide power. Men and women will always be different on a physical level (right?).

BlueMax

That struck me from the moment I saw it as kind of the point. It's The A-Team 2072, for crying out loud; youre half a second from someone off-screen, as it were, shouting "Cut!"

So because you don't see the director or the cameraman, you're automatically sure they're not there? Whatever.

It's 2072 and I live in a media drenched society. It's cheap to look the part and I crave the attention. Did I mention I'm a shadowrunner? Easy enough to rationalize this fine piece of art.

I'll withhold judgement until the copy is in my hands.