Hmm... while tempting... no. Adding a bit to space I'm fine with, allowing true post-scarcity nano-tech is still a bit beyond my tastes for SR (though that would be a topic for another thread, as this one is about space, not nano-tech).

Oh but they are intimately linked. You must have missed our earlier discussion on how the economics of space almost requires nanotech. But I don't even know where would be an appropriate website to discuss that one.

hi hi

I'm not sure if I like the Zero-G combat skill solution. It reminds me an awful lot of the Underwater Combat skill from 3rd ed, where you can suddenly become an expert in a number of different forms of combat that normally require separate skills just by going into an environment that is by my estimation more difficult. Gunnery suffers a little bit from that problem but is at least justified by the idea that it is more computer control.

I've come up with two different solutions for the "problem," so called:
-----
New Environmental Modifiers.

Low Gravity (about .2G-.01G) :
• -2 dice pool on all physical skills
• The base damage value for melee attacks is reduced by 1/2 unless braced.
• Running Speed reduced by 1/2. Speeds above 1/2 are possible by jumping.
• Jumping distances increased by x (not sure on the math there, I can check later)

Freefall ( less than .01G) :
• -4 dice pool on all physical skills (-2 to skills requiring only hands if tethered down)
• The base damage value for melee attacks reduced by 3/4ths unless braced.
• Un-braced melee attacks and projectiles will push the character backwards x meters
• Walking speed only unless jumping.
• Unlimited jumping distance

High Gravity ( 2-4G) :
• -2 dice pool on all physical skills
• Movement speed reduced
• Threshold of Athletics tests increased by 1-2

Extreme Gravity ( 5G +)
• -4 dice pool on all physical skills
• Movement speed reduced
• Threshold of Athletics tests increased by 3+
• Resist stun damage equal to the number of Gs experienced, interval every minute.

((Corollary: (Underwater)
• -4 dice pool on all physical skills))

New simple action: (Brace) The character braces herself against a structural feature, preventing movement.

------
Solution 1: (Traits)

Zero-G Training, Rank 1 (5 karma per rank)
• The character reduces dice pool penalties from low and zero gravity by 1/2
• Bracing becomes a free action
• Gains a +1 dice pool bonus to athletics tests to move while in low or zero G.
 • Gains a +2 dice pool bonus to resist stun damage from Extreme Gravity

Zero-G Training, Rank 2
• The character ignores dice pool penalties from low and zero gravity.
• The character reduces dice pool penalties from high or extreme gravity by 1/2
• Gains a +2 dice pool bonus to athletics tests to move while in low or zero G.
• Gains a +1 dice pool bonus to athletics tests to move while in high G
• Gains an additional bonus to resist stun damage from Extreme Gravity

(Underwater training (5 karma))

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Solution 2: (Skills) A simpler solution, but people who don't take Gymnastics might complain.
Zero-G training becomes a specialization of Gymnastics
 • Reduce dice pool penalty by skill rating.

Nano-tech is needed for space work yes, but full produce anything with the right blue prints nano-forges are not. I have no problem with dedicated nanites and even multi-purpose reprogramable nanites. Nearly grey-goo level nanites are a deal breaker for SR though.

As far as the Zero-G skills thing, I don't know how the Zero-G skill is written, but it would probably work well to use either your Zero-G skill or your relevant combat skill, whichever is lower.

How does that work with things like microgravity adaptation and space monkey hands?

hi hi

Wow... I totally missed the section in Arsenal about operating in Low Gravity. I did look, just not well enough I guess. I still think they at least need to add something in there about how melee combat is worse than useless in free fall thanks to Newton's third law of motion. (they are in general much less harsh than mine)

True.

If we are going to try and come up with rules though, we should try and pick out a framework to keep with. I think the level of realism to aim for in space is something like Ender's Game. It's a familiar enough setting for many people, and speaks to people in fairly deep ways. The other thing to keep in mind is that SR is rules heavy to the point of ungainliness, so it would be good if we can avoid stacking too much more on, or find some way that people scale the realism to fit their games (PARANOIA goes to an extreme by making three categories. I don't suggest we do that, just keep the idea in mind).

-- So far the only thing that strikes me as simply badwrong is that the Unwired satellite rules are rubbish. Basically, ignore everything it says under Satellite Links (Unwired, pp. 50-51) and forget you ever read it.

As Unwired and Augmentation are inconsistent in this, any lag time the GM considers significant should reduce Response to 1 and call it good. Any lag beyond a Combat Turn really isn't hacking in the Shadowrun sense of slinging programs though.

-- I would also ignore the weapon recoil movement unless you like Hollywood style knockdowns (assault cannons and rocket launchers may move you though).
-- Melee attacks are possible, but require bracing yourself on your target (i.e. leglock then punch) or terrain (grab a handhold then kick). Knife attacks and so on will also still be useful but you'll want to avoid swinging motions that might turn you around on a miss. The existing penalties are probably abstract enough to account for this.
-- I would allow full movement rates for using climbing if you have experience.

I always thought all of the modifiers in the main book for combat could be reduced to Visibility, Wounds, Movement. Each category tops at [-6], for a total possible of [-18]. This meshes pretty well with the three pools you get for rolling which basically beak down to [Attribute+Skill]+(Mods), which soft cap at [+6] each, for a total possible of [+18]. Since you want the runners to have the advantage, they can go up to [Attribute+Skill](x1.5)+(Mods), or [+24]. GMs also get to keep control of their stories by using situational modifiers that would generally cap, again, at [-6].

Your power gamer groups would only ever have to worry about the last two categories, the (x1.5) to skill and attribute, and the [-6] or so the GM doles out. Other gamer groups wouldn't have to pay attention to it, and 3 categories on each side plus about six dice in wild cards on each side is much easier to remember than the gargantuan tables and twisted references that make me keep breaking out the $imon$ez [Knowsoft].

^^ did that actually come across, or does it need a table format?

- Things that breed in humans, burst out of their chests when mature, have acid for blood and need to be nuked from high orbit to be sure.
- An awakened organism that turns humans into tentacly masses of goo that want to eat them. Cut off their legs!
- Biogenetic experiments gone awery and zombiefied former inhabitants mutilated by cosmetic surgery. This is also viable in an underwater mining facility, btw. You get a fantastically retro designed space/wetsuit, too!
- Dr. Betruger and his hordes from hell. You do get a chainsaw each, though.

Okay, enough with the sillyness.

[7] The team is hired to pose as replacement crew on a space station, and is supposed to
- plant surveillance devices into vital systems unnoticed
- plant a device they are told is a surveillance device unnoticed, which is really a bomb/AI home node/contains terrible viru programs though, and take the fall when the station explodes and an angry mega/government works overtime to find out who planted the device.
- find out which permanent crew member is funneling research/funds to the competition or is running the stationwide prostitution/drug/other vice ring.
- discreetly supervise operations for a week, because something significant is supposed to happen and [some NGO, Policlub or government agency] wants to have an eyewitness report. Someone will get eye cameras for this job.

[8] The team is hired to escort a rich person onto Shibanokuji resort, and on a lunar cruise with Evo's brand new space cruise ship Paradise I. Of course, someone wants to kill, harm, or kidnap the person, just to keep things interesting.

[9] The team is hired to recover soemthing from one of the derelict space stations, only to discover tzhe station stopped being derelict some years ago and now is a corp installation again.

[10] The team is hired to steal the plans for the Japanese spaceborne death ray station from a space habitat and bring them to the rebels on Okinawa. They get help from Ben, a Euro Wars vet who is burnt out and living in an old movie set in Tunisia, which now seems to be part of the Grand Egyptean Empire. Bonus Karma if hey escape the troopers in escape pods and land in a desert.

Actually space mining if done by A.I. controlled drones is relatively easy. You need a fusion plant, which can be made, a set of ion engines which we have now, a nano fabrication plant, which have a nice listed price, a small set of mining drones, I'd go for 3-5, and they only have to work once, and 4 or so high rating nano hives. The drones extract the minerals from the asteriod, which is then fed into the reactor to turn it into a plasma, and the elements are gas centrifuged off to purify them. They are then given to the hives for maintenance, and the nano forge to make larger goods like another complete ship to do more mining with. I don't know what a fusion plant is worth so I can't comment on initial start up costs, but you only need to build 1, and it can build all the other ones you'd want. Best of all, given the fact it can make pretty much anything, it can also upgrade itself, and all its daughter craft with plants received from earth. As for where to get the reaction mass from, there are volatile gases in the asteroids, and ships like these could even mine the jovian system, and use atmosphere mine jupiter itself for more reaction mass via atmosphere skimming if needed.

Actually space mining if done by A.I. controlled drones is relatively easy. You need a fusion plant, which can be made, a set of ion engines which we have now, a nano fabrication plant, which have a nice listed price, a small set of mining drones, I'd go for 3-5, and they only have to work once, and 4 or so high rating nano hives. The drones extract the minerals from the asteriod, which is then fed into the reactor to turn it into a plasma, and the elements are gas centrifuged off to purify them. They are then given to the hives for maintenance, and the nano forge to make larger goods like another complete ship to do more mining with. I don't know what a fusion plant is worth so I can't comment on initial start up costs, but you only need to build 1, and it can build all the other ones you'd want. Best of all, given the fact it can make pretty much anything, it can also upgrade itself, and all its daughter craft with plants received from earth. As for where to get the reaction mass from, there are volatile gases in the asteroids, and ships like these could even mine the jovian system, and use atmosphere mine jupiter itself for more reaction mass via atmosphere skimming if needed.

Oh yes, giving control over self-replicating nanites and essentially infinte ressources to build anything it wants to an AI is a brilliant idea for the SR world because never, ever has that gone wrong at all and it is totally unconceivable taht an AI could ever want to drop WMD on humanity just because it can or because it feels cranky. They could also build cylons to mine the asteroids and already arm them while they're at it.

Aside from that, you still have to get that stuff up the gravity well and the mined ore down.. So either you risk another Deus who has nanotech replicator weapons and returns with a vast fleet of kill vehicles, or you pay up. Neither possibility seems likely, given space mining in SR still isn't necessary because there are plenty of ressources left on earth and those are easily tracked down by mages and geomancers. So you'd be looking at the risk of yet another AI related cataclysm - the third in what, 15 years? - for the mining of ressources you do not need, spending vast sums of money on unnecessary capital. That fails to make any sense.

Just because it can be done from an engineer's point of view, does not mean it will be done against all political and financial odds. Otherwise, we'd have real space station colonies since the 80s.

Again, please keep it small, simple and within the bounds of the setting. This still should be recognisable as Shadowrun, and not turn into some sort of Space-because-we-can-run.

Actually this was something I was thinking of for an A.I. to do for itself, if only because people like YOU exist which would be out to cause it problems if its sharing the same rock as you.


OR you're and A.I. looking to create and off planet matrix network for you and all you're oppressed kind because a bunch of paranoid asshole humans are making your existence intolerable because they have some misguided notion you(without any biological needs) have some interest in kicking them off the biosphere, and you'd rather not associate with that kind of subsentient furless, monkey if you don't have too.


Yes, but to start this little project off, all you need is an A.I. with a decent engineering background, an jail broken nanoforge, the rest of the materials, equipment, and other goods pretty much make themselves.


I will, if you could tell me why it wouldn't happen? You as a person have demonstrated a prejudice against A.I.'s that would MAKE them want to leave the planet. Them doing this, and then mining the moon, belt, and then tenofroming venus to give themselves a homeworld is both possible, and probable given the level of technology, and the societal resentment they face.

double post

In his defense, he (and a great deal of Sixth World inhabitants) are worried about another Deus. If it wasn't for another apocalypse scenario Winternight was trying to bring about, he would've been the Matrix God he wanted to be.



See above. Deus was the biggest and worst - while Megara/Morgan and the Echo Mirage AI's were 'good folk', Deus was not. The rash of current AI's don't necessarily have humanity's best interests in mind either - such as xenoform AI's.


Sure, though I figure a ship capable of lifting that kind of mass would take awhile for a nanoforge to assemble - or at least the parts and drones to do the construction. At least niggling little details like life support can be cut out of the process, making it a giant engine with a couple cargo bays slapped on.



Why would an electronic being need a planet? It seems to me they'd only need a variety of high-power hosts to store themselves in and a top-notch wireless Matrix connection in order to communicate with the rest of the solar system (time lag notwithstanding).

hi hi

I figure that the Corporate Court would be regulating space travel, at least in the near earth zone enough to keep people from crashing things into each other.

-----
On firearms in zero gravity. If you were to fire ten rounds with a 7.62x51 NATO military rifle/MG cartridge in M80 ball loading (I grabbed the values from teh intarwebs, so it might not be 100%) a 80 kilogram person would experience a 1.4475 m/s change in velocity. Not huge, but not insignificant either. Plus, unless you were firing from your center of gravity, you'd pick up spin.


------

I wonder, would getting boosted into space help at all with people that are infected with things like HMHVV?

I would think that HMHVV-infected (read: dual-natured) beings would go stark-raving bonkers in orbit.

hi hi

I don't mean ghouls, vampires and the like, but someone who was bitten by a ghoul and is worried about making the next couple of body rolls. I'm not sure if there is a good way to parse that sentence. What do you call someone who is infected with HMHVV but isn't an "infected" yet?

(It is strange that Ben would own a drone, he's definitely not a rigger)

They would need a stable platform to host large computer complexes which are reasonably safe. Free floating asteroids and ships emitting large levels of comms traffic are easy targets, planets allow for larger more effective defenses to be mounted. You can put your computer core kilometers under the surface, making it reasonably immune to many forms of attack.

Cry me a river. Yeah, Deus was just misunderstood. Just like Stalin, Hitler, or Pol Pot. Or that thing on the Aztech station. Yes, this prejudice against AI is wholly unfounded, especially given all current AI *were born from the Singularity Deus created*. So in essence, they share it's code. It would be totally unfounded in the SR world to be wary of them.

Also, I was just accused to be a racist towards fictional characters. I LOL'd.


Megaera/Morgan were good flk. Mirage killed around 5000 people too, just because it could. Though granted, it did feel kind of bad about it afterwards.


You say that like the World Tree is no paragon.


Define 'help'. Since they're dual natured, they'd die. That helps metahumanity, though not exactly the infected.


Also, it would have to be launched somewhere, by someone. Well, maybe Horizon, they're a front of mindmelters and AI surpremacists anyway.


Well, in SR4, you're doomed, since Krieger's stopped being curable because of the crash or something. HHMHVV 1 infects you while you're dead, so these beings can arguably be called undead. II and III works more like Krieger's, and IIIa more like I.

I'd think the Krieger's-like infection just might be sanitised by exposire to space, actually. For Type I infected, all hope is lost and all you can do for them is a mercy kill.

Don't Shedim spirits get some weird protections by being in a dead body? The terrible Bio-ship + Shedim combo would be...I don't know.

hermit's point about gathering capital you can't use for production is valid. More than valid, it's a full limiting factor on technological innovation. Any assumptions on developments in tech need to be based on cash-flow analysis, more so even than on the technology itself. This is a huge problem for innovation for institutions that need to be profitable as the up-front costs for ideal solutions are often too high to use them. For instance, replacing the code the Internet is based on would allow the Air Force to enforce what would effectively be a Data Trail, which would do a great deal toward information security in the US, but replacing all that cruft buildup would be heinously expensive, so it can't (currently) be done. SR gets the Wireless Initiative because the destruction of the Wired Matrix from the Crash made the economics of it valid, whereas it would have been a slow, ugly, and organic process if the Wired Matrix had been around the entire time.

I've got an equation for making those decisions around here somewhere, but I don't think anyone wants that much detail to stick it's nose in.

-- Added a big update to the first post with all the space asset stuff from Wastelands. Will further update from other books, trying to work backwards from Corporate Guide as that's the most current in-universe book. Comments in parens with "huh?" and stuff are parts I find unconvincing or are inconsistent.

and humans all share the same basic genetic makeup as stalin and hitler... your point would be what exactly?


Not so more. More it was done to make a point to indicate that there would in fact be people who ARE racist towards them, and given they don't need much of the infrastructure a metahuman society does, its much easier for them to simply leave then to put up with the crap people throw at them.


If done before the virus actually transforms them, then only the virus at that point would be dual natured, and it would die. That should leave the host intact, but only if done BEFORE it gets in too deep.


Since it can do away with all life support weight, and food/waste systems, its actually going to be much smaller then one might otherwise expect. I am reasonably sure it could launch itself. Given that a fusion plant would allow it to not require fuel for the atmospheric portion of the launch as it could just heat, and expel the air its passing through. The whole think should be much smaller then a large jetliner, and should be able to takeoff from a conventional runway. Basically like a semi ballistic but with no crew compartment cause its all been replaced with machinery. Launch a second space plane which only has the reaction mass tanks, and link the 2 or transfer the tanks over, and then head to the belt.


Ya, I'm pretty much in agreement with you on this. Expose the virus to space before the victim succumbs to it, and you might save them.

As you sound like an econ sort of person I'll trust you on that.

-- All baseline humans are Hitler! That actually could be a rallying cry for metahumans

-- I don't think fusion air-rams are available in Shadowrun. Most likely because it appears fusion power plants are very large and bulky.

-- If the virus is dual-natured then it's a perfect cure. If the virus is mundane and converts you into a dual-natured beast you're screwed.

... your average Chaos warship.


They are racist with a reason. The AI didn't make a good entry, and have shown a love for butchering humans by the hundreds of thousands. And again, those were two of three AI existin back then. So them asking to be just accepted and trusted boggles the mind, really. They should be glad they are allowed to exist at all. It's more than they earned for themselves.

And given all these AI come from the same source, which is Deus, the worst AI ever, and given their code is much more intimatly tied to their being than the mead body to the SR world, where body and mind are not one, they can hardly claim they are all harmless. It only took a few years of them coming into the world for another of their kind trying to lob around bioweapons.


You have little idea of the power needed to lift something into space then. A glorified Ion engine would not do the trick. And even if it were large enough, it would generate enough radioactive fallout to again cause numerous deaths. More than a good reason to just shoot the vessel down and have the AI inside burn upon reentry.

And for the record, I don't see AI to be as accepted as Emergence would want them. An AI killed millions. The Corps, if not the general populace, should be more than paranoid about them, seeing as how much the arcology dilemma damaged Raku. Not to mention the less powerless governments. I'd rather expect Echo Mirage style AI hunter hacker teams to zone in on any confirmed AI and eradicate it on the spot. So far, AI have behaved much more like demons than rational beings. It would be appropriate to deal with them as such. I'd see the relation between humans and AI too damaged to repair.


Kauft nicht beim Elfen! (There's a novel about this sentence)

This file also holds some info on SR in space, specifically about the Proteus corporation. It is where I got my idea of space as Horror shelter got from. It's the game info section from the original German book, translated into English.

The translation is rocky, and the references to material only available from obscure German sources certainly are not helpful, but it gives a slight insight in the only corp ever to try itself in space stuff seriously after Harris-3M'S demise. Please note after the conspiracy is concluded, it effectively stops, and turns to being profitable instead.

I don't think the power plants are that large, they were being used in ocean going vessels in SR for a while now, so they technology should be reasonably small. Even if its not, its always possible to just make some 'disposable' sub orbital type vehicles to launch all the needed components for an orbital assembly.

I do like the idea of using space as a shelter from the horrors. I don't think they could really get up there very well. Just have to keep the human populations spread out in many smaller stations, and with minimal biologically based life support systems.

They're the same size and weight of the reactors powering a Nimitz class supercarrier. That is, their weight still should be in the hundreds of metric tons. Fusion reactors generally are dependent on a damn lot of shielduing and immensely powerful magnets which need to be shielded too. That'S not exactly a MEchwarrior man portable fusion reactor.

And even if they could lift themselves, there is no reason to not simply shoot the AI ark down, quite on the countrary.


Yes, I agree on that. Horrors are not 40K chaos and cannot sustain themselves in the void.

Ouch, ya, you do have a point there.


Which is kinda hard to do when people present with the attitude of 'you're lucky I let you exist'. Its also precisely the reason I could see them wanting to leave the planet.


Oddly enough I can make that same statement for humans, and there's billions of those thinks kicking around.


Ion engines are NOT radioactive. I'm not sure where you got that idea from. Also the ion engine is for use in transit from earth to the belt as they are very efficient, and would decrease the needed reaction mass.


Really go figure that.


Given the population of A.I.'s and that by no means are all of them derived from Deus as you claim, and that only small number of them have gone bad, I would wager plans to exterminate them would be a bit over the top. Then again, this is yet another reason for them to leave.

No reason not to shoot down a chartered flight? I'm going to call bullshit on that one. Given the current status of the A.I.'s I'm not sure you legally could, and if you did, you'd be hit up on depending on where the AI is from, murder charges and the like. Its also possible the AI isn't actually ON the ship just yet, at which point you've just made friends with someone with an earth side nano forge, techincal knowhow and near limitless patience. Sleep well.

I tend to agree the current SR setting has people reacting to reasonably to AI. Also, it is not racism to hate AI, as AI are not a race but an entirely different category of being with no biological basis. Hating orks is racism, hating AI an understandable reaction to the unknown, esspecially when what little is known is negative. If I were in charge of a corporate or govt. weapon system and saw an AI launch an arc into space, I would probably shoot it down out of fear of what it could do if it felt the desire. If an AI wanted to build a space habitat, it would have to be a lot more subtle about it than launching an unmanned ship to escape Earth.

Fusion reactors are perfectly reasonable propulsion systems for space flights, but not really for getting up the gravity well. They would be built in space and used as transport for things that are already in space or have been lifted up via other means.

Corps using non-sentient systems like SKs or the like to manage remote mining operations is quite likely though, and concievably the SK could have an x-event and wake up as an AI, leading to an AI controlled mining colony.

I see space travel in SR as serving a couple of basic functions: Research into the nature of the galaxy (which while it doesn't require people in space could benefit from it), research on the potential advantages of zero-g manufacturing, zero-g manufacturing, mining, and doing it because "we have the money, and we can." I think people underestimate what a corp will do because it can when they have as much money and power as they are presented with in SR. There comes a point where they can not use their money to realisitaclly continue to generate a good ROI, so they will use it to do things that they want to for no other reason than because they can. This won't lead to a massive space faring civilization, but it will increase the space presence of metahumanity of SR beyond that simply justified by the almighty nuyen.

Then there are always the hints of things worth exploring on Mars...

2 out of 3 humans are mass murderers? Hardly.


Depends on the fuel used. Also, to get into the belt you have to get into orbit first. Lifting a couple hundred tons into space is not easy at all.


Proof?


2 out of 3 is not "just a small part". Keep in mind that there weren't many AI before the crash, and all post-crash AI are derived from the singularity, which, essentially, was DEus, as the other two were sucked in and absorbed into it.


They're worse than the bugs. Would you also think it'd be believable the SR world is handing out rights to bugs?

hi hi

Getting out of the Earth's gravity well does take a lot of oomph. It takes more ∂V to reach escape velocity than it does to make a hohmann transfer to Saturn. Additionally, because exhaust velocity is roughly inversely proportional to thrust, you are probably going to be forced to lift off with an inefficient engine.

This is one of the reasons why the Corporate Court's mass driver would be such a big breakthrough in space travel.

However, it really depends on how much mass you need to lift. A Russian Proton Rocket can lift about 21,600 kilograms into low earth orbit for a low low price of $85 million (remember, a nuyen is worth more than a dollar). Once in LEO, a spacecraft could fire up a more efficient motor like the VASIMR and go just about anywhere.


This is one reason why mining the Lunar surface or an asteroid would be important for the space industry, because the wouldn't need to boost raw materials up into space anymore.
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The thing about AIs is that they are really good with computers, or so I am told. It is entirely within the realm of possibility that a group of AIs could commandeer some funding and spoof their payload records.

------
A good source of information on the economics of space travel.

A sound reason to keep a close watch on the SK, or not have them be too intelligent. You do not want an AI with self-replicating omniscent nanites rummaging about the solar system. At the very least, integrate a nuke into the spac eship design and blow it up should the ship ever refuse orders. OF course, this also puts the immense investment into the mining colony into question and is yet another reason why this is not economically viable.


And for that to be necessary, it would need a space industrty in the first place.

Also, an asteroid being dragged to earth carries the risk the asteroid crashes, causing a global catastrophe. I doubt many people would consider building things in space for the sake of being in space worth such a risk.


I can agree with 2 and 3. 4, I consider economically unviable. 1 makes little sense and would very likely be limited to very few PR heavy manned missions and mainly robotic probes. 5 is completly at odds with SR's hyper-neoliberal world, where only the bottom line counts. Spending money because you can is the opposite of such a greedy world.


Sorry, but that makes no sense. Not even Proteus worked like this; and Proteus is by far the most insane corp concept ever proposed in the SR world.

SR is not Star Trek. There is no age of plenty anywhee to be seen, and ROI still is the one and only thing that matters before anything else for a megacorp, if for no other reason than to keep up with the other corps.


Sure, but that does not require more than a few manned and probe flights.

Would you expect the A.I.'s to react any differently then any other group which has received discrimination in the past?


Oddly enough that's exactly what racism is.


And if I were beside you, I'd shoot you for provoking something which has the capacity to launch vehicles into space.


I don't see anything in the books which indicate that A.I.'s are unable to own property or travel. I actually see people trying to entice them to live in their home nodes, because the A.I. does such a good job improving the node.


Given a saturn 5 rocket could boost itself into orbit, and MOST of its weight was fuel, I'm pretty sure a fusion plant, breathing air could make the trip. Those rockets weighed 3000 tons, and so a 1000 ton fusion plant could quite likely make the trip.

Neither are 2/3 A.I.'s.


Given a saturn 5 rocket weighted 3000 tons, I'm pretty sure you could get most of the way using an air breathing fusion powered engine, and have it collect remass on the way up to finish the trip into orbit. Once there top off up hydrogen or water which is waiting from modified sub orbitals, and then get on your way.


Actually you're the one making the statement they are. So it is up to you to provide that. I know the R.C. says AI's come from all sorts of programs, and that no one knowns why they 'wake up', but makes no reference to deus.


No, they keep waking up all the time, sometimes from programs not even written at the time the crash happened.


Actually their not, the books quite clearly state people are attempting to get these entities to inhabit their electronics to improve their functioning. If the bug spirits provided such a useful service and did so without eating your soul, I assume they would be viewed favorable as well.

Would you expect humanity to treat AI any differnetly than other grave threats it has faced in the last decades (bugs, shedim)?


This is getting ridiculous. Tone down the personal attacks.


And people becoming vampires or bug spirits because that has such an improving effect on the body, too! And using blood magic because of the boni it gives your newly awakened magic!

Sorry, that is inane.


This is not how a fusion plant works. I really advise you to brush up on the basic idea of fusion plants before resuming this discussion.


... and on the setting.

Some books you might wnat to read before making such claims: Renraku: Arcology Shutdown; Brainscan, System Failure, Psychotrope.


Uhm, reference?

Xerox did, AT&T did back when it was a monopoly, in SR Azetchnology did this in a massive way with Dark on their board. Massive wealth has no function if you can't do anything with it. Corps do things that make no economic sense regularly in SR, Desert Wars being a prime example as there is no way it makes nearly as much as it costs to put on. As much as people talk about the profit motive being all important to corps in SR, their actions really don't back that up. Also I believe the term you were looking for to describe SR corps in neolibertarian...

Xerox is dead. No mega in SR is a monopoly, curiously. Monopolies get lazy and corrupt. In SR, competition forces all megas to not slog it like this, though.

And Aztechnology did that because they were infiltrated by a cult that old them the idea they could make the entirety of mexico horror proof that way. That's a good return on investment.


I imagine the ratings make up for a few goons being shot up. Also, it is a ritual to solve disputes that might otherwise turn into far more costly shadow wars. But yes, it is more than a bit wacky. Still, it serves a purpose. Going into space for the sake of being there, doesn't.


I chalk that up to bad writing. And yes, it probably is. Not being a native speaker sometimes shows like this.

And the prime motivator of ROI always comes back to having a cheap energy/power supply. The space industry can and will flourish if it is economically feasible, so how can it be made feasible? And based on which method is the most likely/most fun, how would the SR world get there?

--The immortality mentioned in another post would be a great way to get there.
--Corporate Elite living in space so they are effectively immune to the fallout of their decisions that leave millions in a state of hellish existence.
--Fusion power is magical fairy juice, so we can now get to LEO for the cheap price of a shovel-full of pixies.
--Funding for Marine Oribital Insertion Platforms has boosted research in that field, so getting to LEO is expensive and polluting but happens frequently anyway.
--Invoke the Space Is An Ocean trope and ride your Flying Dutchman to the gritty stars.
--Ehhh, no. Wintermute burns your face off, go directly to jail, do not pass go.

-- A space elevator makes getting stuff into orbit somewhat feasible

I would also like to expand on orbital space and habitation, even Lagrange stuff. Things like A-class corps moving their HQ into space because there are no taxes to be paid, banks and data havens operating from space stations because there are no laws there reining them in, the Corp Court and the UN scrambling to agree on orbit laws and falling over their feet, that kind of stuff.

With suborbital aircraft a semi-common means of travel, getting people and small payload nto space already is relatively feasible, too.

I'd like such stuff be expanded upon, and shift the focus of SR space into the near-earth reguions and poilitics/sociology of space, away from weird tech and von Braun's pipe dreams.


Zurich Orbital.


-- Neuromancer downloads you into itself. Your remaining eternal life is spent in an endless loop on a simulated beach in Morocco. But you get to bone your most recent ex girl, so that's kind of okay.

hi hi

Unless you're using some kind of super science fusion technology, fusion isn't going to be a very good engine for blasting off Terra Firma. A hypothetical high powered Hydrogen-Boron fusion engine weighs in at 272,155 kilograms and only produces 61,000 Newtons of force. That is 4.46 meters per second squared of acceleration with just the weight of the engine, clearly not enough to counter the 9.81 meters per second of gravity.

Also, said Hydrogen-Boron fusion engine will sometimes make a Carbon-12 atom and a gamma ray, and sometimes makes a Nitrogen-14 atom and a neutron. The first side reaction is quite a bit less likely than the desired reaction, but gamma rays are harmful and quite penetrating. The second side reaction occurs with secondary alpha particles before they are thermalized.

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I like AIs as a concept, I wouldn't mind having one as a friend, but they are not human. There is no reason to believe that they would think like a human, their motivations could be totally alien and for all anyone knows they are. Racism doesn't carry with it the same negative sting when it is a totally different species.

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There already is a space industry, however juvenile it may be, please read the source I posted earlier about the economy of lifting things into space.

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Space is big, and there are lots of convenient places to park things if you're not concerned about LEO.
One of the things about S-K is that it is run by a Dragon, and they have a knack for thinking in the long term and doing things that people would never think of doing.

Edit: Humans are not 100% rational logic machines. They do things to satisfy their egos, act out of spite rather than self interest, don't always know what is in their best interest, don't properly cost/risk assess long versus short term gains.

In the SR world, AI have sufficiently established themselves as a threat on even level with shedim and bugs thanks to Deus and (to a lesser extent) Mirage; nevermind the original crash virus, a rumored 4th god-like AI. Yes, SR4 AI are different. Do you think most corps and governments will just say, oh sorry, we will just let you run free and see where things go, or rather to take no chances with a potentially genocidal threat and zap it?


It is not very far beyond the suborbital phase (which would be suborbital commercial airplanes), and needs a two stage model with chemical booster rockets (source: neo-anarchist's guiode to real life, Rigger 3). Nothing that would warrant dragging asteroids around and parking them somewhere. The Space Elevator is the first SR project that makes such a maneuver necessary.


And Lofwyr always keeps the bottom line in mind. Nevermind that there is nothing to be gained for himself from spacefaring, being a dual natured half-spirit creature and all. If Lofwyr would want to go to Mars, he would just netherwalk there.


Parking your ressource far from where you need it is not convenient.


Certainly not, but there is a certain difference between building a gilded statue of yourself and spending your entire megacorp's worth on building a space station nobody needs.

And most SR power brokers are rather rational beings, Lofwyr being among the coldest calculators (with sociopaths like Knight and Villiers a close second)

The abstract on IceKatze's link is really a good summary of the economics questions we keep circling. With attribution:

hi hi

Edit: <snip> reading comprehension fail.

- shockwaves

Perhaps for the sake of argument, it would be better for us to agree to disagree on whether or not there is a drive for industry in space. You're not reading any of the sources I'm citing so there really isn't much point in this.

"Screen shot, or it didn't happen."

Quoting a short, relevant part of a source with attribution makes it easier to keep up. It puts the burden on the poster, I know, but otherwise when someone reads it later the link is dead and they have no idea what was being discussed. Also, the links aren't blue like they traditionally are, so I almost never see them.