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suoq
I'm a little curious if/how people can run Empathy Software at 5 or 6.

What I'm seeing:
Cybereyes/Glasses: Limited to rating 4. (Goggles can go to 6 but negotiating with goggles on seems so off that I can see the empathy software responding with "Thinks you're a freak").
Commlink operating system: Semi-Limited to rating 4. (It can be modded with a threshold/interval of System Rating x 2 and 6 months. Um... Yeah...)
Optimization: "Only Common Use (p. 226, SR4), Hacking (p. 226, SR4), Autosoft (p. 240, SR4, and p. 112), and Simsense programs (including BTLs and skillsofts) may be equipped with program options." No luck there.

Am I missing something or is empathy software pretty much capped at 4?
(I'm sure I'm missing something. I still haven't figured out how the sample Hacker got his Erika Elite to a System 5.)

DireRadiant
You can upgrade a device by purchasing response to 6.
Karoline
You can just buy a higher grade system/firewall. You don't have to get those OS packages in the equipment section. Same goes for hardware. Kind of like how you can get Norton firewall to replace the windows firewall, or buy a better stick of RAM for your computer, etc.
Yerameyahu
Plus, Emotitoys run it. smile.gif
Thanee
Or you could just ignore Empathy Software (esp. from Emotitoys wink.gif) and sleep better at night.

Bye
Thanee
suoq
Thanks. I needed to be looking for "Response" not "System". Sometimes I think I need the Minority Report display system to sort out the rules.
Yerameyahu
You were also looking at the rules to code your own System softs, not buy them. smile.gif
sabs
I think that adding rating to dicepool seems excessive. Maybe have the software do a rating vs charisma, and then add net hits to your social totals against that person.
Udoshi
To be honest, a far more hilarious GM-side solution to the Emotitoy/Empathy software shenanigans is to just flat out replace it with Lie Detection software on the sly.

*runner with 'empathyware'*: "THE JOHNSON'S LYING! TURN THE JOB DOWN"
Team> "eh. Thats normal. "
Yerameyahu
Yeah, I don't think anyone is thrilled about +6 to all Social tests for everyone. Oh well. :/
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jul 27 2010, 07:48 PM) *
Yeah, I don't think anyone is thrilled about +6 to all Social tests for everyone. Oh well. :/


Average of 2 Net (Rolled) Hits additional... no big deal really... though others may not like it, which is okay... It does not break the game... and no, I generally do not use it... but have no issues with those who do... wobble.gif
Yerameyahu
Ha. +6 is the definition of a big deal. It kinda does break the game, if you use Social tests.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jul 27 2010, 09:31 PM) *
Ha. +6 is the definition of a big deal. It kinda does break the game, if you use Social tests.


I have YET to see it actually break a game in play... Your assumption is that EVERYONE would use such a system, and I say that that is not the case... You can always make the argument that anyone who does not use such a system is a fool, and you have the right to your opinion, but I disagree with it... You need a device capable of running a PRogram rated at 6 (Remove the emotitoy drone and you then need a device that is no longer cheap)... DO you penalize the Hacker by not letting him have his Rating 6 Program? Empathy Software is just a tool, and it has its uses... it is not a World Ending (nor even a City-Ending) piece of equipment.

If, in your opinion, you believe that the Empathy Software is broken, you have a few choices...
1. Don't allow it at all...
2. Allow it as a Teamwork Test Only...
3. Allow it as a Device Program that rolls its own dice and informs you of the analysis...
4. Allow it to add to the Test of the Character using it as the rules allow (Remember, no more additional dice added to Social Tests greater than the skill rating + Attribute Combined; this just gets you to the cap quicker is all, and will generally not allow any other modifiers)...

Any of these work... and really, You can generally receive more dice pool bonuses with a character that has been around a while with just his Base Street Cred, that the Empathy Bonus becomes completely redundant.

Yerameyahu
I'm not saying there are no fixes (which is kinda my whole point). There have been plenty of threads about it. I'm saying that it's silly to call a cheap, blanket +6 'not a big deal'. If smartlinks gave a +6, that'd be a problem. If ruthenium gave a -6, that'd be a problem. Etc.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jul 27 2010, 09:54 PM) *
I'm not saying there are no fixes (which is kinda my whole point). There have been plenty of threads about it. I'm saying that it's silly to call a cheap, blanket +6 'not a big deal'. If smartlinks gave a +6, that'd be a problem. If ruthenium gave a -6, that'd be a problem. Etc.


I disagree... It is not cheap (3000 Nuyen is not cheap; That +6 Rating)...
Ruthenium provides a blanket -4 to your perception, the extra -2 you posit does not change its drawbacks.

The fact you need very expensive hardware to run a Rated 6 program (Emotitoy notwithstanding) limits the usefulness of the empathy software... We removed the Emotitoy from the ability to be purchased, and the resulting useage of the Software dropped off dramatically, especially at Ratings 4+... Most devices play out at Rating 3, and some people actually use Empathy Software Rating 3... and honestly, +1 net hit average is worth the 600 nuyen or so, but it DOESN'T Break the game... no more so than having a specialty might... it is an edge that can be used, nothing more... wobble.gif
Yerameyahu
3000 Nuyen is *incredibly* cheap. You can't just keep going 'Emotity notwithstanding'. +6 to everyone in a an entire class of tests is certainly a situation where the game can be broken. Imagine, instead, that the +6 smartlink applied to any combat action (super-tacnet). Or +6 to all Technical skills (hacking, biotech, build/repair). Or +6 to all Reaction skills (all driving, rigging, etc.). +6 to *all* Social tests is insane. (And don't tell me -6 Ruthenium is no problem.)

So, yes, fixing it fixes it. That's the point. smile.gif You can't tell me that no fixes are needed because you're *using a fix*.
Cabral
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jul 27 2010, 11:20 PM) *
So, yes, fixing it fixes it. That's the point. smile.gif You can't tell me that no fixes are needed because you're *using a fix*.

For Emotoys, not empathy software, so his statement still stands.
Yerameyahu
The two are pretty closely linked. People certainly come out of chargen with rating 5 hardware, and it's not like they bought it just to run empathy software. There's no reason to factor that cost in. In fact, if it's pirated Empathy software, then it's even more dirt-cheap. And, again, this is *already* after the application of a no-emotitoy house-rule. Which is the point: fixes.
suoq
Just to be clear, taking the eyes from a 4 to a 5 is 4000 Nuyen. Taking them to a 6 is 8000 Nuyen with an availability of 16.

So the difference between cybereyes with a 4 empathy and a 6 empathy is more than just the software costs. The hardware cost is non-trivial.


Cain
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 27 2010, 08:07 PM) *
I disagree... It is not cheap (3000 Nuyen is not cheap; That +6 Rating)...
Ruthenium provides a blanket -4 to your perception, the extra -2 you posit does not change its drawbacks.

The fact you need very expensive hardware to run a Rated 6 program (Emotitoy notwithstanding) limits the usefulness of the empathy software... We removed the Emotitoy from the ability to be purchased, and the resulting useage of the Software dropped off dramatically, especially at Ratings 4+... Most devices play out at Rating 3, and some people actually use Empathy Software Rating 3... and honestly, +1 net hit average is worth the 600 nuyen or so, but it DOESN'T Break the game... no more so than having a specialty might... it is an edge that can be used, nothing more... wobble.gif

So, lemme get this straight. Because you piled a bunch of house rules on it, you think the RAW version doesn't break a game? smokin.gif
Mäx
QUOTE (Cain @ Jul 28 2010, 07:22 AM) *
So, lemme get this straight. Because you piled a bunch of house rules on it, you think the RAW version doesn't break a game? smokin.gif

He doesn't pele any house rules on empathy software, he dissallows emotitoys, which really is the only fix needed.

QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 28 2010, 05:50 AM) *
Remember, no more additional dice added to Social Tests greater than the skill rating + Attribute Combined

That limit is actually only for social modifiers, those are listed in the next page.
Irion
Sorry, but emotoys and the software suck, and yes they are game breaking.

I beg your pardon, but +6 normaly increases the dicepool by 50 to 100%. (If we are not talking about some sort of social adept)

So yes, it is gamebreaking. And even +3 is a very big bonus.

So you get to the point, were everyone has his emosoftware or pokemons in negotiations. Great.
Why not just let it out of the game, and everyone rolls 10 instead of 14 dices?
Lanlaorn
QUOTE (suoq @ Jul 28 2010, 01:18 AM) *
Just to be clear, taking the eyes from a 4 to a 5 is 4000 Nuyen. Taking them to a 6 is 8000 Nuyen with an availability of 16.

So the difference between cybereyes with a 4 empathy and a 6 empathy is more than just the software costs. The hardware cost is non-trivial.


Your commlink runs software, not your cybereyes. You don't even need cybereyes at all, any kind of camera (be it 'ware, worn or even mounted on the wall) works.
Saint Sithney
QUOTE (suoq @ Jul 27 2010, 10:18 PM) *
Just to be clear, taking the eyes from a 4 to a 5 is 4000 Nuyen. Taking them to a 6 is 8000 Nuyen with an availability of 16.

So the difference between cybereyes with a 4 empathy and a 6 empathy is more than just the software costs. The hardware cost is non-trivial.


You're misunderstanding the Device Rating. It's not related to Sensor Rating or Response. It's a count of how many things you can cram on in your eyes.

For Cybereyes, that counts as capacity.
For lenses/goggles it counts the number of distinct options available.

So, Glasses, with a Rating of 2, could get an Image Link and a Smartlink.
Glasses with a rating of 4 could get an Image link, a Smartlink, Flare Compensation, and Vision Enhancement.

Even with the Availability under 12, you can't cram more than [Rating #] options into a pair of specs.
BTW, personally, I consider Image Link an integral, and therefore included, part of a Smartlink system and so I let Smartlink count as an upgrade/replacement for Imagelink. No need to pay for, or account for, both.

But regardless of that, if you route your eyefeed to your comlink, and it's running Empathy (or any Sensorsoft) then that's where your bottleneck will be. Software runs on the link, and the link's Response and System determine the max Software Rating.
Badmoodguy88
QUOTE
So you get to the point, were everyone has his emosoftware or pokemons in negotiations. Great.
Why not just let it out of the game, and everyone rolls 10 instead of 14 dices?


Proportionately it is not the same.
(this is not meant to represent an actual dice pool)
1 is 1/10 of 10 or .1

add six to each
6 is 6/16 of 16 or .375
Irion
@Badmoodguy88
If you leave glitches out it is.

It does not matter(much) if I add +6 to both sides of the equation.
A=B
A+6=B+6
If A>B
A>B
A+6>B+6
Well it gets a bit more komplex, if yout get into the propability.
And since only the difference (Nethits) matter, there is close to no difference. (Of course more extreme outcomes are now possible and the probability curve is slightly different.)
If both had 4 dices the maximum amount of Nethits would have been 4.
With 10 dices eacht it has risen to 10, but with a bit more dice to begin with it won't matter much, because the Probabilities for such events are extremly low.

Well, it won't matter much and it sure as hell ain't an improvement.

Cabral
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jul 27 2010, 11:20 PM) *
3000 Nuyen is *incredibly* cheap. You can't just keep going 'Emotity notwithstanding'. +6 to everyone in a an entire class of tests is certainly a situation where the game can be broken. Imagine, instead, that the +6 smartlink applied to any combat action (super-tacnet). Or +6 to all Technical skills (hacking, biotech, build/repair). Or +6 to all Reaction skills (all driving, rigging, etc.). +6 to *all* Social tests is insane. (And don't tell me -6 Ruthenium is no problem.)

So, yes, fixing it fixes it. That's the point. smile.gif You can't tell me that no fixes are needed because you're *using a fix*.

-6 would be a bigger deal than +6, just because of the increased chance in reducing a test to an edge only test and the increased chance of critical/glitches.

As for empathy software and device rating, what exactly prevents you from running it on your commlink and outputting it to your glasses?
suoq
QUOTE (Cabral @ Jul 28 2010, 05:47 AM) *
As for empathy software and device rating, what exactly prevents you from running it on your commlink and outputting it to your glasses?

The commlink suffers the same issue as the glasses: They don't come in a rating higher than 4. Even a Fairlight Caliban with Novatech Navi can only run level 4 hacking and basic software unless the software is optimized or the system itself is improved (and then you're facing the same hurdles as the eyes).
LurkerOutThere
Where are you guys getting this belief that cybereyes limit the rating of the Empathy software. I'm not finding anything to indicate that.
Mäx
QUOTE (suoq @ Jul 28 2010, 02:12 PM) *
The commlink suffers the same issue as the glasses: They don't come in a rating higher than 4. Even a Fairlight Caliban with Novatech Navi can only run level 4 hacking and basic software unless the software is optimized or the system itself is improved (and then you're facing the same hurdles as the eyes).

System 6 cost all of 3000 nuyen.gif , i wouldn't call that a hurdle.
suoq
QUOTE (Saint Sithney @ Jul 28 2010, 04:01 AM) *
You're misunderstanding the Device Rating. It's not related to Sensor Rating or Response. It's a count of how many things you can cram on in your eyes.

For Cybereyes, that counts as capacity.

The answers above led me to pg 222, the page with the Hardware upgrade costs table.

In the Device Rating paragraph it states:
QUOTE
There are far too many electronics in the world of Shadowrun for a gamemaster to keep track of their individual Matrix attributes. Instead, each device is simply given a Device rating. Unless it has been customized or changed in some way, assume that each of the Matrix attributes listed above for a particular device equals its Device rating.
This means that unmodified cybereyes with a device rating of 4 should have a Response and System rating of 4. Now there appears to be jack-all about improving the System of anything (which is the reason for this thread) and the answers (above) appear to be "improve the response and the system goes with it". On the same page it clearly shows the costs of improving that response (and therefore system) to 5 or 6. (with a limitation of +2 so cybereyes with a response/system of 6 would require cybereyes with a device rating of 4).

QUOTE
But regardless of that, if you route your eyefeed to your comlink, and it's running Empathy (or any Sensorsoft) then that's where your bottleneck will be. Software runs on the link, and the link's Response and System determine the max Software Rating.

Interesting enough, there appears to be no feasible way to get a commlink to system 6, since it's system rating is specifically unattached to it's response rating. It may be because the commlink is trying to do a lot of things while sensors are much more focused (pun intended) devices and therefore have a less complicated O/S. I don't see any way to run sensor software > 4 on a commlink unless we go with the "improve the response and the system goes with it" rule which makes less sense on commlinks since there are very separate tables for building hardware and coding software (response has an interval of 1 day & system has an interval of 6 months) and the stats come from two different objects (the commlink model and the stock operating system).

Now the actual truth may be that "improve the response and the system goes with it" isn't really true and all one can purchase for improvements on a device is a response but not a system. If so, we're back to square 1 and wondering how to run Sensor packages > 4.

Mäx
System is ugraded by buying a better system, rating 6 cost 3000 nuyen.gif
Can be wound with other matrix program at page 330 of the Anniversary edition of the core rulebook.

Edit: okey now im tarting to feel really ingnored(just read the next post)
suoq
QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Jul 28 2010, 06:27 AM) *
Where are you guys getting this belief that cybereyes limit the rating of the Empathy software. I'm not finding anything to indicate that.

Again, pg 222:
QUOTE
System limits the rating of programs running on the device

And Pg 232:
QUOTE
The System rating of the device limits the rating of the program. A program operates at its own rating or the System of the device, whichever is lower.
suoq
QUOTE (Mäx @ Jul 28 2010, 06:38 AM) *
System is ugraded by buying a better system, rating 6 cost 3000 nuyen.gif
Can be wound with other matrix program at page 330 of the Anniversary edition of the core rulebook.

Thanks. I missed that part of the equation. (and I was looking up page numbers and rules while you were posting. I didn't mean to appear to be ignoring you.)

So, system doesn't come with response.
1) Upgrade response as per page 222 (since system is limited to response).
2) Upgrade system as per page 330 (since software is limited to system)
3) Purchase software.

So empathy 6 would first require cybereyes 4 bumped to response 6 (8000 nuyen.gif availability 16) with system 6 (3000 nuyen.gif).

That actually makes sense to me. Thanks everyone. wobble.gif
Mäx
QUOTE (suoq @ Jul 28 2010, 02:46 PM) *
Thanks. I missed that part of the equation. (and I was looking up page numbers and rules while you were posting. I didn't mean to appear to be ignoring you.)

So, system doesn't come with response.
1) Upgrade response as per page 222 (since system is limited to response).
2) Upgrade system as per page 330 (since software is limited to system)
3) Purchase software.

So empathy 6 would first require cybereyes 4 bumped to response 6 (8000 nuyen.gif availability 16) with system 6 (3000 nuyen.gif).

That actually makes sense to me. Thanks everyone. wobble.gif

No you only need a comlink with system and response of 6, no need to needlesly mod your cybereyes.
And that ingnored think was only half serious. biggrin.gif
suoq
QUOTE (Mäx @ Jul 28 2010, 06:49 AM) *
No you only need a comlink with system and response of 6, no need to needlesly mod your cybereyes.

That would work as well, but since the commlink starts out at the same limit as the cyber eyes (rating 4 is the best available before upgrade) upgrading either is the same process and price and with the character that started this, I'm more likely to throw away my commlink than I am my eyes. Now if I was going to run a lot of other rating 5 or 6 software, then the commlink would be the way to go (save on optimizing costs).
MortVent
QUOTE (suoq @ Jul 28 2010, 07:54 AM) *
That would work as well, but since the commlink starts out at the same limit as the cyber eyes (rating 4 is the best available before upgrade) upgrading either is the same process and price and with the character that started this, I'm more likely to throw away my commlink than I am my eyes. Now if I was going to run a lot of other rating 5 or 6 software, then the commlink would be the way to go (save on optimizing costs).


Actually you can buy a custom commlink vs an off the shelf one (with the restricted item advantage you can do it at creation) with a Response 6, Signal 5, System 6 , and Firewall 6 commlink setup

All you do is buy the components individually vs as upgrades. (in other words you don't need to buy a metalink and upgrade it you just buy a custom link)

I'd actually pay 300 for a biomonitor, 50 for the skinlink and then build the custom link into that while carrying another for camoflauge
LurkerOutThere
QUOTE (suoq @ Jul 28 2010, 06:41 AM) *
Again, pg 222:

And Pg 232:



Right, but i'm not running the empathy software on my cybereyes. The cybereyes vs goggles dicussion is irrelevant. My comllink is another mattter.

Personally for my part empathy software is one of those things that just doesn't work from a mechanical level. Everyone whould run it to the best of their ability and then it becomes an escalating arms race. Better to pretend it doesn't exist in my mind.
suoq
I'm slightly confused. Are people who want to run the empathy software on the commlink saying that sensor software doesn't actually run on sensors or are they saying they prefer to run all their software on their commlink (knowing that too many programs initiates a response drop, although I'm not sure right now if I'd ever hit that limit once I'm in the 5-6 range)?

If people are saying sensor software doesn't run in the sensors (the cybereyes), I'd really like an explanation because there seems to be some decent processing power already in them.
LurkerOutThere
But not enough to handle the better quality of software which is kind of the point of most of the sensor softs.
Cabral
As an aside, what's the device rating of Alpha grade cybereyes?
suoq
QUOTE (Cabral @ Jul 28 2010, 08:29 AM) *
As an aside, what's the device rating of Alpha grade cybereyes?

Assuming you mean Implant Grades (Standard, Alphaware, Betaware, Deltaware) the grade doesn't change the device rating, just the nuyen cost and essence cost.
Mäx
QUOTE (suoq @ Jul 28 2010, 03:35 PM) *
Assuming you mean Implant Grades (Standard, Alphaware, Betaware, Deltaware) the grade doesn't change the device rating, just the nuyen cost and essence cost.

Yes it does, bodyware is rating 1, headware is 3, alphaware is 4,betaware is 5 and deltaware 6.
So alphaware cybereyes have a device rating 4.
suoq
QUOTE (Mäx @ Jul 28 2010, 09:03 AM) *
Yes it does, bodyware is rating 1, headware is 3, alphaware is 4,betaware is 5 and deltaware 6.
So alphaware cybereyes have a device rating 4.


By Vectron's grasping claw, the rating for the cybereyes ISN'T the device rating? It's just a rating that's (to quote Saint Sithney) "a count of how many things you can cram on in your eyes"?

Kill me now.

I'm leaning towards the "run all software" in the commlink because all it means is I actually have to understand is commlinks. Tonight's mission: Figure out how good that commlink has to be to run empathy, a firewall, a homeground agent, analyze, and encrypt, and Vectron knows what else. Maybe I'll wimp out and just stick with the empathy and firewall and to heck with paranoia. cool.gif (It feels like trading in my rooted Droid running Froyo for a iPhone with applestore apps though...)

Yerameyahu
AFAIK, sensor software *doesn't* run on sensors. Some people like to think that every device, by virtue of device rating, can run any programs you like. Including cyberware. I've seen people running things on their bone lacing. frown.gif For my characters, I run sensor software on my (extra dedicated) commlink.

[suoq, I'd recommend this. There are many cool sensor software options, and your main commlink is *busy* already. smile.gif ]

Again, yes, you have to upgrade your off-the-shelf commlink to run the highest-rating programs. You'd do that *anyway*, and it's not very expensive. Then, you'd tack on pretty cheap Empathy software, and link that to any camera feed: cybereyes, contacts, camera sensor unit, drone, your friends' cameras/eyes/contacts, whatever.

Now, if you asked nicely and the software was *very* appropriate, I'd allow peripheral nodes to run some software besides Analyze and AntiVirus. Maybe.
Thanee
The best fix for emotitoys is to have them make funny noises and such all the time. They are toys after all. wink.gif


The bonus is just way too high.

Someone with a skill rating of 1 (barely knows anything about negotiating) and a rating 6 emotitoy is equal (even slightly better) than a world-class negotiator (skill rating 6)?

Maybe let the software give a bonus equal to 1/3 its rating (or use its rating as teamwork), that would be much more reasonable. smile.gif

Bye
Thanee
Yerameyahu
Right, that's the 'roll DP of rating, add hits to player' fix. smile.gif There certainly are a wide range of good fixes to choose from.
suoq
QUOTE (Thanee @ Jul 28 2010, 01:11 PM) *
Someone with a skill rating of 1 (barely knows anything about negotiating) and a rating 6 emotitoy is equal (even slightly better) than a world-class negotiator (skill rating 6)?

That's like saying someone with a skill of 1 and and a top grade toolkit (+6) is better than a world class car mechanic (6) who isn't allowed to use any tools. Yeah, they would be. The real truth is the world class car mechanic has the tools, the skillset, and the talent, and Vectron knows what else. That's why they're rolling 20 dice and the skill 1 dude isn't.

Heck, a guy with a medkit (6) can work wonders even without any first aid skill. That's what the medkits are made to do.

Take a world class elf negotiator (6) add a charisma of 7 (not even at max for an elf), pheromones (3), Kinesics (3), Empathy Software (3) (because that's EASY to get), and you're already talking 22 dice. 24 with First Impression or if it's something you specialized in, like Bargaining. The extra 3 points possible through Rating 6 software is really just decorating icing. (I've forgotten, what's the cap on negotiation? I really need to figure out where the capping dice rules are.)

The goal of this thread isn't to reach some insane dice pool during chargen. That's easy to get without rating 6. I was simply trying to understand what needs to be done to run the software at that level since optimization doesn't work on sensor software.
Yerameyahu
Actually, there's just as much controversy about the medkits. smile.gif Tools can give "+1 or more", which certainly doesn't mean +6 is easily available, if at all; I think you're looking at, for example, Science Tools, which gives a bonus like that for a *Facility*, not a toolkit.

The fact is that Empathy software means +6 to all social tests for basically any runner with commlink, but *not* for many NPCs.
Doc Chase
Frankly I'd have the medkit give a bonus equal to the character's First Aid/Medicine skill, defaulting to 1/2 rating rounded up should they have no such thing. Gives a trained medic character a serious reason to use one, but doesn't make someone with a skill of 1 be able to perform surgery. nyahnyah.gif
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