No, it's differential, just like S&S and FFBA: NPCs are less likely than runners to have these things.

If you remove an item from the game, it's a house rule. The *rule* is that you can get that item at the given availability and cost (which happens to be very little). Your examples are ridiculous, because no runner could *afford* those things.

Why is it any less likely that an NPC will have such things? That makes no sense whatsoever. They are available to the World at large, and anyone can have them.

The fact is, removing something from purchase is not a rule... Yes, my example was extreme, on purpose (Would your response change at all if it was a MIG-67 with Optimal Weapons and Ammo Loadout, which is affordable, though not at start?). It was to demonstrate that the removal of something from play is not actually a rule, it is a GM decision on the availability of a piece of Hardware... it in no way represents an actual rule, and you know that... I could say that I do not allow the Arsenal Book at all, and that is not a Rule (again, you know that). Rules are the Mechanics that actually affect the working of the game itself... The decision to remove a piece of hardware (or even an entire optinal book) does not affect the RULES mechanically at all, and never will...

Come on Yerameyahu, you know this, why are you arguing against it?

I don't know, if they've got the money and can manage the availability tests and all the other tests that would be required I think I'd allow the character to get something like a plane.

Besides, the main difference here is that you aren't simply making it hard to get (Which is understandable for some items), you are making them non-existent or downright impossible to get. While not the definition of a house rule, going "I'm not having X in my game." is a rule, which is enforce at your 'house' and isn't part of RAW, and thus would be a house rule. Now, disallowing an entire book is somewhat different, but if you cherry pick stuff out of the books, then it is house rules.

Not sure what the problem is though. So you house ruled Emotitoys into non-existence. Is it some heinous act to have a house rule or something? Especially on something that 99+% of people agree is broken anyway?

I don't know why you're so embarrassed about a house rule. If you change what the RAW says, it's a house rule. If you change the normal game that a player would expect from the books, it's a house rule. It's not the Scarlet Letter.

Yes, it's less likely that a given NPC will have *any* of those things. Not impossible; less likely.

On the medkit comparison side of things, it does pay to mention that First aid has all sorts of negative modifiers, and a threshold of 3 to beat before any hits count.

If you had a threshold of 3 to not make an ass of yourself, Joe Runner would still be walking around with his fly unzipped, even with the emo bonus.

No its not, Social modifiers are their own think and are different from other dicepool modifiers that affect social rolls.(like kineciks and empathy software)

Yes, you've changed this rule called "Availability". Which isn't a big deal, if you think it makes for a more fun game. But it doesn't change the fact that it's a house rule, cahnged because you think the canon rule is borked. I'm going to agree with everyone else here: why are you ashamed to admit to using house rules?

Because nearly everyone is. Thats one of the mysterious things about PnP I will never get. Mostly the rules are clear an easy to understand. (But sometimes stupid or unrealistic)
The less interpretation you put into the rules the clearer it is.

A lot of people take offence, if their ruling is not seen as supported by RAW. Even if RAW in itself is close to unuseable.

No, Max, that's exactly my point. I'm specifically saying it's not RAW.

Do you have a source quote on this?

Because from what I've read:
1) that list is clearly stated as EXAMPLES, and not a complete list

2) a bonus is a positive dice pool modifier, is it not? if not, then we need to go over a great deal of items as the term is used on many different things such as smartlinks, and if it is not a modifier then is it applied at a time other then "apply modifiers" part of a test? This could have far reaching effects on many things such as the splitting of dice-pools. However, I've seen no support of this interpretation and have instead seen the term used interchangeably with " positive modifier". Anyhow, I digress. A "bonus to the character's Social skill tests" (exact book terminology, AR p60) is modifying a social skill. How is this not a Social Modifier when the first line is "Many sorts of modifiers may apply to social skill tests, depending on the situation and character."? It is clearly some sort of modifier to a social skill test...

3) an argument that "emotion software does not appear on this list, therefore it does not apply" is invalid. The core rule book will not specifically call out an item, ability, power, that is found in a specific source book, unless it is decided that they are now part of the core rule set.

4) the listed social modifier of "Character lacks background knowledge of situation" is very closely related concept. It applies, what is the justification that the presence of superior knowledge of the social situation does not apply?

So far the argument that empathy software (or kinesics for that matter) does not apply to these limits has yet to show a good book reference. If you're looking for mine, scroll back a page and you'll see my earlier post.

There is no shame... I just disagree with you (yeah, I know, what else is new)... Enough said, as it is just going around in circles and getting nowhere...

Thats an negotions modifier and is for those situations when the character lacks any nowledge about the background of the situation he's trying to negotiate about, i cant see how that is in anyway similar to bonus provided by empathy software.
Based on the text and the table its very easy to see that social modifiers are a very specifig kind of situation modifiers to socil dicepools.
And ofcource the table is just examples, they could never come up with a compherensive list of situational variables that can affect a social situation, so GM are free to make up their on social modifiers.
Nothing on that list bears even remote similarity to thinks like empahty software,kinesics,tailored pheremones or a vocal range enchament.

Well, That could be because they are so obviously Social Modifiers that they need not be stated...

So no source quotes, no RAW rulings, nothing to support this interpretation other then the theme of the table? A table that the rules say does not encompass all the possible modifiers? Common, you can do better then that I think. Isn't the theme of that table things that effect a social situation? Or am I missing a hidden one, because the modifiers seem to have a fairly large scope including things such as feelings, distractions, number of people, held items, clothing, and knowledge. I don't see how these other ones are so special compared to this list.

A strict reading of that table is going to do some silly things for your games. For instance lets say I have a VIP pass to an exclusive club that I obtained legitimately, say from the club manager after a run. Now the bouncer takes a look at me and thinks I don't fit in, and he doesn't want a bribe. The GM asks for a Etiquette test. Wouldn't the VIP pass help on that roll, a test to prove you belong there? Well, the table has a listing for Negotiation and for Con, but you're not doing either of those tests since it's not a lie and there is no deal making. So what happens in your game? Do you use the modifier in the category it isn't listed in? Or do you ignore the obvious supporting social factor? Does this bonus apply to the cap in your game, or do you let it exceed that?

Good, there shouldn't be. Especially if your house rules make the game more fun. But denying that you have house rules in the first place is, well, silly. You changed a rule, it made the game more fun. No shame or insult here. I just want to know why you rabidly deny that you changed the rules?

If all thinks that act as dicepool modifiers to social skills are Social modifiers as you claim, then can you tell me why they dont just use that term in the description of those thinks. That would be much simpler andd even shorter way to tell the reader what those thinks do then what they currently say.
There no support what so ever in the book, that every dicepool modfier to social skills is a Social Modifier.

If the book had a line saying that visibility modifiers range from 0 to -6, would you based on that claim that attention coprosessor(and its ilk) cant give you any actual bonus dice just negate minuses becouse its obliviously a visiblity modifier as its affact how well you see.

Hey, I was just throwing out a possibility there... it is one that I generally have no issues with, but I have already admitted earlier that I lumped it in possibly in error (at least I think I did, I will have to go back and look)...

You do have a point, though, and it might deserve futher investigation...

Nope, the Attention Coprocessor is all senses.

I will answer that... I do not see it as a RULES change, that is why... I know you (and others) possibly (or rabidly) disagree with that, and that is okay, I just don't agree with that sentiment. It falls into the same arguments (in other threads) of whether the FAQ is valid or not... some people say YES, and others say NO... each side has reasons for their beliefs, and you will not generally change either side's mind about which is right. Same thing here... Since I have not changed the Mechanics of any rule by removing a piece of technology from the game, then I do not see it as a RULES change.

No big deals either way, really, and it isn't really worth all the time and energy that is going into the arguments trying to change each other's opinions on the matter...

I think the problem is you guys have different definitions of what you are discussing.

Tymeaus states he made no alteration to how Empathy software works in his games. And this is true, from what he says you can buy it in his game and it works just like the rules say it does.

He just doesn't allow Emotitoys. That's hardware, not software.

Is it true he has made SOME house rules involving Empathy software? Yes, but not directly. You just can't get it in one particular form.

Which says to me he doesn't mind how Empathy software works, he just doesn't want his runners plopping a dancing bear toy on the table every time they sit down to talk to their Johnson.




-karma

This is the best explanation I have seen for what I do here... Thanks KarmaInferno... Very succintly stated.

These aren't the only house rules he says he doesn't have.

He's modified how empathy software works, by effectively restricting it to >=4. He's also changed the availability on emotitoys. Those are pretty serious changes.

Now me? I think if it makes his game more fun, he should go for it. But he shouldn't pretend he's a Toturi, great lord of RAW, when he's got a pile of house rules an encyclopedia thick.

I have restricted nothing to >= Rating 4, Empathy Software is available from rating 1 to 6 )and provide the relevant bonuses)... It requires a Comlink with a System Rating and Response Rating capable of running the relevant Software (From 1 to 6)... You obviously continue to willfully misunderstand everything that I post... and removing a Singel Piece of Equipment is a Serious Change? Really? Wow... Just Wow...

You are so wrong it is just Epic... An Encyclopedia? Really? Just Wow...

And as far as Toturi and I are concerned, We differ in opinion on only one real topic... what Common Sense applications of the Rules the GM has access too... That is it. I may not agree with his interpretations all the time, but he makes a hell of a lot more sense than you do most of the time.

There's removing, and they're restricting. You've effectively restricted Empathy Software to ratings 1-4 by requiring high-end processors to run it on. Also, you've restricted it to commlinks, when you can run Empathy software on cybereyes or drones.

For that matter, you've essentially expressly prohibited running Empathy Software in drones, because that's all an emotitoy is: a furry drone running Empathy software. Otherwise, what's the difference?

"So wrong it's epic"... wow, how can you have so many house rules (discussed in many threads) and deny them so heavily? Pontius Pilate would be proud.

Wow, you're just taking the narrowest most restrictive reading of what he said that supports your argument, huh? The phrase "putting words in his mouth" comes to mind.



"The System rating of the device limits the rating of the program." - SR4A

Response limits System. This isn't a house rule, it's a core rule.

So yes, for off-the shelf Commlinks, this would mean you can only run a Empathy software at rating 4 or lower.

Again, this is RAW, not a house rule.



He used "hardware" in place of "commlink" earlier.

Since he didn't say "ONLY commlinks" in his last post, the reasonable interpretation is to assume he was using "commlink" as a convenient term for hardware that runs software, since it's the most commonly encountered and thought about type.

But you had to go interpret it as meaning "ONLY COMMLINKS", didn't you?



Reductio Ad Absurdium? Please. Do better.

He made no mention of other drones. And there is a difference, other drones aren't dancing teddy bears.

As I stated, he just hates the idea of runners constantly plopping a dancing bear in front of their Johnson.

He made no mention that they can't get Empathy software elsewhere, or that the Empathy software mechanics operate any differently.



There's only one house rule. He restricted Emotitoys. That's it.

From what he has stated, I can buy Empathy software in his games, slap in into any hardware with the right System ratings, and get a bonus to my social tests, assuming I can feed the software with audio/visual/whatever stuff that it can interpret. Exactly as the rules as written allow.

If I outlawed a particular shotgun, would it be reasonable to say I altered the way Shotgun Ammunition works?

He outlawed a particular 'wrapper' for the software. He changed nothing about the software itself.


-karma

If I have a legal Bust-A-Move running Empathy Software 6, I have an emotitoy, That'd be the same thing, essentially. It'd be trickier if I tried running it on my legal Rating 6 Earbuds, but that'd be just as broken.

ANd for the record, he says he "requires" a commlink with Response and System 6. That's effectively nerfs empathy softwaree by limiting it to those devices. That makes for a fine house rule, one I think makes sense. But it is yet another house rule, which he denies he has. Hell, a GM applying common sense usually involves the application of house rules. Since I'm not accusing him of lacking common sense, I don't see any insults here. Just me calling him on his denial that he uses house rules.

Your earbuds sure as hell doesn't have a system 6.
Once again cain your just being a fragging obtuse, he has not changed anything except rremoved emotitoys no matter how much you try to but words into his mouth that isn't gonna change.
And there's a big difference with your busta move, you didn't get "free" rating 6 empathy software and a system 6 platform to run it on, when you bought that drone.

The earbuds could, given the exact same upgrades as any other device needs.

Note that to run rating 6 software on the earbuds, you would need to find earbuds with a response of at least 4 and upgrade them. Earbuds should have a response of 1, (general applicance, bodyware), limiting them to an upgrade of 3 where they could run empathy @ 3.

Bust-a-Moves most likely have a device rating and therefore a Response/System of 2. (Sample Device Table, Entertainment, pg 222 in my book). At best they could be upgraded to run empathy @ 4.

Alphaware or better cyberware could have it's Response/System upgraded to a 6 as could a response 4 commlink.

Any device can have it's response and signal hardware upgraded, system and firewall can then run on it as well.

there is no rule in RAW that says only X can be upgraded to Y (or if there is I missed it)

Anniversary edition added a rule that you can only raise response by 2.(IIRC)

Sorry, I am aware that this comment on page 3 of 5 has probably already been picked apart by rabid vultures, but I still felt the desire to comment myself.

I always think of my Business Law teacher (in business school) whenever I click spellcheck or whenever someone says they don't need to edit something before submitting it. We had an assignment where we had to go down to the law courts, spend at least an hour watching a trial, and then write up a 1 page report about what we saw -- procedure, arguments, etc. Here's one of the comments she made: "Be sure to properly edit your report before submitting it. You are watching a trial not a trail. One is to determine damages the other is for walking on. Spellcheckers don't catch this."

That's without getting into the to/too/two and through/though/threw/throw debacles.

Ah, well that's where it is. But I still see a lot more building custom rigs.. and it makes me wonder a bit about the upgraded gear (vehicles, drones and commlinks in the sample characters and npcs after that was released not obeying the rule)

You can run the Empathy SOftware on Sensors.... after all it is SENSOR SOFTWARE...
And yes, you can BUY SENSORS WITH THE REQUISITE HARDWARE CAPACITIES (Sensors can be purchased to a device rating of 6 after all)...
AND CYBEREYES CAN BE USED (as a sensor), but for maximum effect, you MUST HAVE DELTA WARE CYBEREYES to run at a Rating 6 Empathy Software (AS Delta Ware is Device Rating of 6; MAybe be Upgradable from Alphaware, your table may vary)...

Not did I restrict it from running on Drones... Run it on any Drone you like, just not an Emotitoy, as they do not exist in my world... And Yes, oddly enough, you can even modify Drones to have a Sensor Rating of 6 (WOW, What a concept, and it is even in the Rules, imagine that)

Read the Rules a bit there Cain... I Did not restrict it to Comlinks only; that is all on you, and your stubborn refusal to actually read and comprehend what I wrote...

Funny how removing a single item in the game causes you to go all crazy about massive rules changes... You really should just stop, re-read exactly what was written (and yes, I used Comlinks as a general hardware comparison, because everyone recognizes the requirements) and then evaluate your own statements. I am telling you, you are really looking poorly here about now...

You are the one interpreting a single exclusion as Massive Rules changes, not me...

Custom Rigs are completly fine... they generally cost a bit more than stock, becuase they are Custom (Though you could get a discount in the end if you do all the work yourself)...

I know you can buy sensors with more capacity, but I didn't think the books had anything about sensors with higher device ratings which are different than normal ratings.

Rating 6 goggles are not device rating 6 after all (Yeah, I know, they have a bad habit of calling everything rating.)

Otherwise, yeah, Cain is enjoying serving up a steaming dish of his own words and spoon feeding them right to you.

It's Cain. That's all anyone really has to say.

Just look at his post history if you really need to know why.




-karma

Yeah, I know... I should probably stop feeding the Troll, but he really has a way of getting to me sometimes...

I did. You're the one using house rules, after all.


Those were your words, not mine. Nice try at backpedaling, though. Care to defend your words, or at least admit you posted a house rule?

And since we're on grammar right now, can I make fun of your misuse of the ellipses?

Funnily you where the only one to read that as meaning only commlink and not all hardware, i wonder why that is

Knock off the sniping. Have a civil discussion or don't have one at all.

If you want to get technical, a drone is just a commlink that moves, and any other device in existence is just a commlink that happens to do something else.

Make fun of whatever you like...

As for defending my words, no defense is actually necessary... any device capable of running programs is, in essence, a comlink device... You know it, I know it, and so does everyone else, your continued attempts to obfuscate this using verbal tricks notwithstanding. You continue to intentionally misrepresent everything that I say, and it is honestly getting tedious. Stop with the minutia and hair splitting and re-read the rules and you will see that I am actually correct in my statements.

I apologize if this is considered Sniping, but I needed to reply...

I'd just ignore him at this point.

He apparently only sees what he wants to see. Either that or he's deliberately trolling.

In either case, ignore him.




-karma

Yeah, Done... Not really worth it in the end after all...

Seriously? You don't think that going back and forth like this isn't exactly what you were asked to stop doing? Let me make it more clear, then.

If you don't knock off the baiting and the personal attacks, you will start getting warnings. If you then continue, you'll be looking at a nice little time out.

Apologies Eidolon...

Since I have your permission, your use of the ellipsis is incorrect. When it's used to terminate a sentence, you use *four* dots, not three. You also overuse it heavily.

And to show you where your words are wrong, what happens if I want to run an Agent program on an emotitoy? Would you allow that in your games? A simple yes or no will suffice. Hell, can I run an Agent on a sword or magical focus? What's their signal rating? Since everything in SR4.5 has a device rating by default, can you run Black IC on your underwear? Won't that mean I have a commlink in my undershorts, and therefore no need to buy a normal one? Wouldn't Daisy-Chaining become a serious issue, as well as Clustering?

You've noticed eidolon's posting, right?

I know it's a little late in the conversation to ask, but can you point to where this is stated? I can't actually find a limit for dicepool modifiers. Apparently I've been extrapolating the limits for skill/attribute modifiers all this time.

Thanks.