Matrix runs don't have to either.

Thanks for making my point, which was that the word commlink and, by extension, the size of the device is totally irrelevant to your arguments about how the 4th edition Matrix and Hacking rules are worse than in previous editions.


How about "need for instant gratification" or just plain "selfishness?" Sure, it requires a one or more words rather than a three-letter acronym but I think you can get the point across just as easily and succinctly.

By the way, do you have any actual evidence of this pernicious "me first and the gimme gimmes" trend in groups playing Shadowrun? Any evidence apart from your opinion that the 4th edition hacking rules encourage this sort of "bad" gameplay? If I had to guess, it would appear that you are projecting emotions derived from frustration with what you regard as the "indolent selfish youth of today" onto this issue.

Then Shadowrun just isn't your game. Because the very nature of it is going to involve down time for many players. There's legwork, and interaction with Contacts, just to start, and all sorts of run prep that just isn't always going to involve everyone all of the time. I agree that a bad GM who didn't know the rules or poorly planned his Matrix incursions could cause long periods of down time. But a good GM could resolve them quickly and satisfactorily by doing what any good GM does. Knows the rules, and uses the right amount of detail and complexity for his table.

Besides, what kind of players aren't interested in what goes on with the other characters? I admit I was always fortunate to play with really good players, so perhaps my frame of reference for some of your more mediocre group dynamics is limited. But nobody ever felt like they were being ignored, or that just because their character wasn't featured in every scene that they weren't participating in the game or weren't able to have fun. Repeating exaggerations of how long Matrix runs had to take don't make it true.

What do commlinks have to do with the rules changes? With cyberdecks or everbody becoming a technomancer, the rules would still be the same.

Besides, it's not like 4th Ed rules removed the "cigarette break for everybody who's not a hacker/mage" scenario.

The point is that this has nothing at all to do with ADD, or even the colloquial meaning of it. If your Matrix runs were as short as you say, then no one had time to get bored anyway, right?

Doesn't that, in turn, disprove your point that the cyberdeck wouldn't be acceptable in 4th Edition?


Selfishness means a lot of different things and wouldn't be any less offensive. There's no way to describe a trend I think is negative in a positive light, lol. I could try and be politically correct and say "socially and mentally disadvantaged game players" but somehow I don't think that would be taken well either.

It's impossible to disagree that Hacking rules for 4th Edition attempted to streamline hacking due to the fact that some players didn't like the complicated decking rules from the earlier editions. It is also impossible to disagree that the rules were designed to put hackers more directly into the run situation so the players could feel more involved. The developers acknowledged this. So very obviously 4th Edition was designed to appeal to this demographic. If catering to this demographic is one of my biggest disappointments with 4th Edition, it is also impossible to expect me to not post about it in a thread that says in its title "I miss the old feeling".

Like I said before, if you don't miss the old feeling, then maybe this isn't the best thread for you to participate in.

http://forums/dumpshock.com or more specifically http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=33143

No, it's just that some people could sit still for ten or fifteen minutes, or go have a smoke break, etc without feeling like they had been shorted on game time or that the time was being wasted.

So, 'no' on the evidence question?

'Selfishness' would be vastly less offensive than 'ADD', actually. Not that it matters, because that's not really the argument here. You don't like streamlined hacking that integrates runs better. That's a personal opinion. Attributing that change to a mental dysfunction is a separate, useless point.

I see we *do* have the same definition of extended after all. It's ridiculous to expect someone to stop playing for 15 minutes (even if that's really how long the decking runs took; certainly they could be much longer).

And yet if you want to run the top end stuff you still need at the very least a lap top and usually a hefty one. Yes things get smaller, but, the laptops continue to get more powerful and the default security would rise with it. So you can run an attack 6 from 3 years ago on your pocket secretary, awesome. But it sucks compared to the attack 6 of today I can run on my deck. That is how things have advanced today, so assuming the same in 2050+ does not seem weird to me.

Only Kruger could get me and Y seeing eye to eye.

There were some definite problems with the old style hacking, it basically added a second "dungeon" that the GM had to create and the hacker had to deal with alone, it did advance the rest of the groups goals but it's interaction was so compartmentalized they might as well have been an NPC for as often as it did the other players any good. I say all this having loved decking and loved the super hacker culture but I'm not blinded to the real problems in the mechanics of turning every adventure into a split party thing. You may not see them but the vast consensus for folks who played, or especially ran the game for a long time is they were there. Slighting the folks who don't agree with your view doesn't improve your case or how essentially wrong you are.

On the same subject I've been pretty happy with the tech and fluff evolutions but then I've always preferred my runs more Ronin and Heat to Mad Max which Robocop holding a special place in between.

My personal only gripe from the tech standpoint is the actual DNI hacking has indeed lost it's edge, a properly built AR hacker can indeed get close to a VR hackers level, at signifigantly less risk. Personally i've felt the best fix for this is reduce all matrix only actions down one grade for full VR or even datajack. So what is a Complex becomes a simple, etc etc. Signifigantly speeds up hacking for those who wish to risk their brains and bodies.

And yet I bet everyone sits still for 15 minutes for virtually every other player. The face is out talking to contacts, do you go and muck things up with his contact with your etiquette 2, the ninja is scouting out an area, do you clomp behind him with your nonexistent stealth, the mage is astrally scouting a facility, do you interrupt and say no you can't take my time.

I don't have a problem with integrating decking more with the real world, but it seems to me it was singled out in a vast array of me time moments.

Well for me that's explained by there being a huge difference between what your average person has (3 stats) and what a true matrix professional has (all 6's) and that's before we get into areas where Hackers are maintaining Nexi for the really difficult tasks.

Selfishness is a character flaw. To me, assaulting somebody's character is far more offensive than suggesting they have a hard time paying attention or get bored easily. I didn't say that being an ADD player made them bad people. I said it was a player trait I didn't like. I also don't like smelly people, or people who are constantly late.

Integrating runs "better" is a matter of opinion, not fact. It simply integrates them differently. The question is whether or not they needed to be integrated in that manner at all. I say no, you say yes. That's all fine and good, but the topic of this thread is "I miss the old feeling" not "What do you think about the new feeling?"

And no, we don't have the same definition of "extended", at all. Just like you apparently don't understand the proper usage for colloquial, you don't understand the definition of "same"r. The only thing we share is an agreement on the duration of "fifteen minutes". I'm glad we're on the same page as far as standard time units. This could be really difficult if you were on Saturn time or something.

Hackers like Mages require additional time, on occassion.

But I love Hackers and I think that if you're ordering pizza and spending an hour and a half waiting for the hacker to be done.. your GM was overly complicating the Matrix.

I hate agreeing with Kruger on anything.. he makes it so hard to agree with him and not feel tainted by how insulting he gets

I can't imagine his gripe about 'colloquial' (especially when used perfectly), but obviously we won't derail the thread just for him.

So, what does this even have to do with the 'old feeling'? Neither speeding up hacking nor wireless altered the 'decker specialness'; allowing everyone to be VR did that. It's not even really commlinks versus decks that changed anything. Again, it's letting literally anyone be a decker. If that's the problem, then we care even less about 'ADD'. It's the same thing with Riggers: a VCR used to be their sine qua non, whereas anyone can rig now. Nothing to do with wireless, etc.

The Face's contact scouting takes a few rolls and the GM passes over the info sheet or tells the table what he found.

The ninja's physical security scouting takes a few rolls and the GM passes over the info sheet or tells the table what he found.

The mage's astral security takes a few rolls, etc. etc.

The hacker's matrix intrusion takes a few rolls to find the right node, a few to break in, a few dozen mebbe to take care of the IC, a few to get the paydata, change the cameras, etc - hacking is unfortuantely much more immersive in the earlier versions. GM's didn't have to build a seperate astral plane for the facility, or a social flow-chart, or a stealth minigame. They did have to build a host. For the majority, deckers did take more time on average than any other specialty.

At least with most of the other stuff, the rest of the team could tag along, and turn a potentially bad situation into a glorious victory. Or vice-versa.

Everyone can be a hacker, and arguably you can make some really interesting adept hacker builds.

increased ip's
+3 to hacking, computer skill

it's hard to beat a magical hacker who is rolling 9+program dice

nanopaste trodes, trodes in general are what made hacking less special.
But, Hacking is still fun, and you can have some amusing runs.

What if your team wakes up with no idea where they are, or how they got there.
And it turns out, they're all on the matrix in a btl simulation, being run by people who want information from them.
Do they figure it out
Do they not
Do they get out? Does the Hacker figure out what's going on and go all Neo?

Yes, it's my opinion that it's better for everyone to have access to VR. That's just an opinion, and I'm not commenting on whether or not it destroys the 'old feeling'. Certainly, it's very different from before.

How insulting I get? Haha. Tymeas tried to bait me with two consecutive posts on the first page which I ignored. But apparently when I do reply to somebody I'm the one being insulting? Not that I'm feeling persecuted, but it is rather funny how I seem to take all the blame for it. You can disagree with me all you want, but the fact that I use more showing language instead of telling language sometimes isn't a character flaw of mine. It is a byproduct of being a professional writer and editor. I'll always pick the words that express what I want to be understood. People certainly understood that I felt that style of play was not something I was particularly fond of. And it wasn't insulting unless you have very thin skin and cannot accept even indirect criticism. In which case, I suggest that perhaps the Internet is not the best place for you.

Well your point certainly makes sense when you carefully craft scenarios that reinforce your point and ignore the ones that don't.

You should pursue a career in political marketing.

We may be misunderstanding each other, but I can see comlinks as the default, I just don't buy the argument that it was needed because a deck does not make sense. It is a totally sci-fi device(DNI etc), and while things get smaller, you still find more power in the bigger devices. And to hack the X-main frame it is not a logical stretch to say you need more power. Heck just say I like the change because I think it is cooler, and I have no issue. But saying you can't buy the size of a deck because of cellphones of today and I think you are just trying to justify a preference.

Yeah
we've got Commlinks (smart phone sized laptops of today)
we've got nexus (Servers)

but we're lacking a meaningful middle ground.
That seems weird to me.

Well Nexi actually run a wide gamut so that's what I see. YMMV.

What room is there between them, though? They're barely different as it is, with only Processor Limit really setting them apart.

A matrix map just like a scouting mission by the ninja was as simple or as complicated as the GM wanted. You can easily do both in a handful or rolls, or take an hour by spending time and roleplaying it. Yes it was a separate map unlike the map the ninja would be scouting out, but that was time on the GM building the adventure side, and not the side of the run.(thoguh I did usually base it off the physical map because I am lazy) Most decking runs for my games took a few to get in, a few to navigate an area, if they triggered IC there were 4-5 more in the fight, a couple to handle their purpose for being in the area. A scouting run would be a few to stealthily get into the area, a few to get around unseen, a handful if they were spotted and got into a fight, a few to handle the purpose for being their.(perception checks, setting up camera's etc.) Though with physical scouting usually if there was a fight, the mission already failed since what ever you were planning to do is effectively foiled due to increased security, so at the IC/spotted stage it might be cut short.

I think a lot of the complaints were not really based on actual face time, but perceived face time. In a legwork mission while the troll street sam might not be doing anything his character is actually there in case anything went wrong. If your ninja is scouting, the team is ready nearby to pull him out etc. The only two areas where the team had no presence was decking and astral. So they felt exclusionary even though in reality you frequently did nothing for the same amount of time. I personally think 4e is an improvement in this regard and I have no problem with the idea of deckers spoofing the door open as they get to it with the team more like a D&D thief than the decker of 1-3e SR, but I can see how the difference in feel might bother some.

There is little room because 4e massively inflated the capabilities of the vanilla simple device (Pocket Secretary) to eliminate the need for the advanced device (cyberdeck).

It's all a question of feeling like the distinction was removed between advanced DNI interfaces, complex circuitry and elevated processing power, as well the elevated power requirements for sustaining such operations, and the simple day to day Matrix functions the average user needed. Sure, most people with the financial means are going to carry their commlink(pocket secretary) so they can check Facebook and get directions and look up who started at quarterback for the Seahawks back in the 2033 season when they get in a drunken squabble with their friend at the bar. But they needed a cyberdeck if they wanted to hack the planet.

It's a fundamental alteration to the canon of the universe. And it can't be argued that it's "more realistic" or a "logical progression" because it's all still theoretech anyway. A modern smartphone and a 2070 commlink have nothing in common except for a fraction of their functions and an assumption of appearance.

except that there is a big difference.

if you spec out a commlink in nexus terms:

It has a persona limit: 1
It has a processor limit of: 2-6

The cheapest nexus has
persona limit of 9
processor limit of 10

What's even weirder. If everyone has commlinks.
Why are there business and retail terminals, standard and premium telecoms
Public terminals. What's the point?

Actually what's the point of a matrix cafe?
I'm confused.
If everyone has a commlink, why have matrix cafe. What purpose do they serve.
With response 2, system 3 (wait what) they're no better than a freaking 700NY Emperor.

What does a persona limit of 9 even mean? Since it's not a limit to how many people can be subscribed to it.

Well thank you. You should open your own school of debate.

@Shinobi: Running the games I did in third I found my chief problem was that decking didn't have that sense of teamwork that the rest of it did. The face might've been schmoozing, but the trollsam got some time in as well looking mean to intimidate folks that wanted to smack the face around for being said schmoozer. The mage went astral, and if he found something bad after him he'd pop back, warn the team and they'd be available to keep it busy until he could banish it.

Matrix-wise? The team's hauling around a scrawny basement-dweller that hunkers behind a desk and jacks in at the first opportunity where they have to wait while he does his mojo. If he gets in trouble, the team can't exactly pull him out of it until they see him spitting blood, and by then the IC has done its dirty work.

Every time I hear someone put on their nostalgia glasses and bemoan how things were better 'back in the day' my eyes want to roll out of my skull. The whole point of new editions of games are to improve interactions between players and to fix rule systems that didn't work. While there's a whole lot of crap that's been tacked on that doesn't work, basic SR 4E does the job fairly well. At least in comparison to previous editions. 1st-3rd Matrix rules were awful. Period. That's not even a debate.

Also, cyberpunk. Cyberpunk is the quadruple amputee with the broken neck begging to be put out its misery of science-fiction. You can play the 'it's an alternate timeline!' card but the whole idea of an alternate timeline is to explore the differences between the real world and what could be. Like if Ronald Regan was re-elected for eight more terms and feathered hair never went out of style. Miss-guessing how the future would turn out is not alt-sci-fi if it's not intentional. Comparing cyberdecks to commlinks and claiming the 'deck is superior is like saying ENIAC is superior to an iPhone because it fills up a room. The future is small devices and it's wireless. This includes weapons. If you don't want a prediction of the future that's kitsch or laughable you have to keep up with technology trends. Sci-fi writers in the '30s had their spaceship pilots using abacuses to chart courses! That's cool if you're doing the Warren Ellis/'Ignition City' thing. Otherwise, it just shows that sci-fi has a short shelf-life if it isn't open to change.

Y'all can bemoan the loss of your digital dungeon crawls and self-censorship made up swear-words. Me, I support change, especially when the product is directed at the right audience. Otherwise you get a dead product.

Spaceman Jones has the 'astrogator' using a log rule book, and a sliding calculator to do math for a wyrmhole approach, because the computer is too slow

I hold, right now, in my Hand MUCH MORE computing Power than was used to send People to the Moon . .

Yes the whole point of new games other than selling games is to improve in areas that they couldn't with a simple errata. That doesn't mean they succeed and many times fail so bad it actually ends up being worse than the previous game.



And again yet for some weird reason the bigger devices with the same tech level have more power. Like how while my snazzy iphone is more powerful than my Apple 2e but if I compare my iphone to a desktop from the same time it gets its ass handed to it. So your things are getting smaller point isn't a particularly powerful point for why it is needed. You may prefer it, but that doe snot mean it is the only sensible alternative.




I support change when it improves the product. I do not support change when it diminishes the product. I was not happy when ice cream shrank its size to 1.5 quarts while remaining the same price. Change is just change it is neither positive or negative in itself. The " self-censorship made up swear-words" made it a better game and removing them made it a worse game. This isn't cyberpunk this is shadowrun. Why should we make changes alienating the Shadowrun fans in order to direct things towards the cyberpunk 2020 fans. Hey look lets try to make things like that totally failed game so we can piss off our fans and grab some of the fans of the failed game.

'I think we mostly agree then. People were happier with the face schmoozing for 15 minutes because their character was on scene. Even if the vast majority of time they did absolutely nothing, the possibility of an event changed their perception of the event.

Personally I think if people looked at it objectively they would see the same decker takes time issue in many more places, but it is a game where you are trying to enjoy your self. Stepping out of things and thinking about it objectively doesn't matter, what matters is how you felt and feel. I can objectively say citizen kane is good movie, I personally was bored and thought it sucked ass. Sure I can objectively comment on the strength of the film making and cinematography blah blah, but at the end of the day I hated the freaking movie because it bored me and so it failed on an emotional level. So all that matters is you were not bored as the troll while the face blathered, but you were bored when the decker did his thing. Who cares if in both situations you sat on your hands for 15 minutes and did nothing. In one situation people didn't like it in another they didn't care or liked it. They fixed the one which bothered people.

And look at what you use it for, so productive.

I don't think it's unreasonable for the other players to sit back for 15 minutes while the [mage/face/hacker/B&E specialist] does his special work. If it's really big and crucial, it might even take 30 minutes (rarely!). But the other players should be rewarded for their patience; ideally they get to watch a cool performance between GM and player.

A Face putting on some really impressive smooth-talking to get hostages released. An infiltrator sneaking in somewhere and everyone listening to hear what secrets she discovers about the lay of the land. The mage encountering a scary toxic spirit on astral recon. The hacker beating security measures just in time to allow the team to escape the facility when the run goes awry.

Important is that what this solo-mission is doing is actually interesting. For low-stakes hacks, dispense with a lot of the checks and breeze through; same with the Face shopping for more bullets. Only if the objective is really exciting and interesting should you use the "big" rules for a solo mission, and the other players should be able to understand (as players) what's happening.

While I do not doubt alot of problems could be had with the Decking situation. I have to say I never encountered them. One of the best campaigns I ran featured a Decker PC (one of the few anyone has ever played at my table) who operated out of the Cal-Free while the team was running in Seattle. Now if I had operated on the X Matrix turns to 1 Combat turn thing, I daresay people would have been very put out. But when the decker was running Overwatch for the group I used to balance the timescales and actions a bit. This worked well for everyone.

The above stated by usual group were also long time players of games like Vampire, Wraith and Mage (to qoute the whitewolf sources) as well as numerous other RPG's (Starwars, DnD, MERP) and often the party/team/coterie ect DID split up and differant people did need differant time to get things done. But hey, it's a social thing and other players generally caught up on stuff with eahc other, worked out details and plans while they were in time-out, chatted about new releases ect. I don't like the ADD term, what so ever, but, we do have a regular gaming club thats been going for 40years now. I see the current 'generation' of gamers and games and what i don't see is ADD players, I see gamestyles that focus on individual rewards and action. Now, I am not being nostalgic when...wayyyy back when... I first sat down with a ADnD group and our party mage hit level 5 for the first time and could cast fireballs, the rest of the party was enawed and dancing with joy, even though we were a level or two behind him, due to missing sessions. He got better so the Party got better. Same in later games like Werewolf and even Vampire (although NEVER in Paranoia...but that was the point). More recently I've seen alot of people complain when one player's character achieves something above another's, there seems to be a desire to compete Within the group. Infact I had to remind somebody only a few days ago of "You know, he's in our party, on our side, what he's just got helps us ALL out incredibley. "

Yes I know not every party works together well (although surely thats part of the charm).
Yes I know there are plenty of RP scope to betray your companions.
But at the end of the day, with the exception of large online based games, multi group onstrosities and LRP, most RPG's are about a team action and effort.

Yes Decking wasnt perfect (or astral)... but I've had my players digging out the section of the book on the Matrix and sit there offering advice or options to the Decker. I've seen them hovering on his dicerolls and I've seen the releif mwhen it's come off (or the utter horror as something goes wrong they KNOW they dont know about IC). True, that didnt happen every time, but it did happen. I think this issue really comes down to respecting your group and what everyone is playing (and of course GROUP characetr creation helps) and letting your specialists do their thing and understanding how it helps you all.

I wont comment on SR4 as I do not own it and do not have any plans to. SR3 worked and works fine for me and mine.

Here's the issue I have every time one of these threads comes up - inevitably, the person starting the topic is looking for nothing more than a back pat. They're looking for like minded gamers to go, "y'know, I miss it too!" and then, they all have a circlejerk of happy while around them rages the same exact flamewars that have happened time, and time, and time again.

You're better than that. These bits of data you're using to "talk" about this can be better than that. Look at the Old School Renaissance guys; at the very least they're trying to put out new stuff for the setting they like, instead of flooding message boards with the same old retread of "you ruined our game!". Well, they still do that (see: circlejerks) but at least they get something out of it.

Sit down, shut up, play the game you want to play, and do something constructive with your time. Otherwise, you're just looking for someone to pat you on the head and tell you that you're right.

@Kruger - Two points.

Point the first: congratulations! You've discovered the term "ADD". You've also discovered, like several other young seven year old boys, that words can mean negative things! Yay!

Here's the thing though: like tossing around the epithet "gay" - severely frowned upon, by the way - you're kind of associating "things that are bad and I don't like" with people who have an honest to god mental disability. Unless you're completely cool with me using the phrase, "forty year old virgin sitting in his mother's basement whining about games other people play and I don't like" whenever I see something I don't like on this board, I'll kindly ask you to stop using the term.

Point the second: just so that we can all be on the same page, explain to us, step by step, how you run Matrix actions for editions of Shadowrun pre 4e.

Thank you very much!

Not the most in-depth response ever, but I can KIND OF agree with the OP. (Haven't read the subsequent five pages.)

I do think that the "pink mohawk" punk side of the game has been downplayed and the "soulless yet competent deniable assets" side of the game has been played up.

Two responses:

Wow, that was a weak insult.

You can call me anything you like. It's not gonna hurt my feelings. Because I am not any of the things you used to describe me, even if it soothes your fragile ego to assign labels like that to me because you have the very same seven year old mentality you try to fault me for having. I think you've given yourself some kind of inflated importance. You and your opinion mean nothing to me. If you want to derail topics by taking feeble potshots at me me, go ahead. Oh, and good job labeling gay people as having a mental disability, lol. You really are bad at this whole translating thought processes to words thing.

I do find it amusing that in the same post you criticized me for looking at the way some people play games in a negative way, you looked at others in a negative way for not agreeing with you. But hey, that makes you like Doc Holliday. It seems your hypocrisy knows no bounds.

Now do the little cup trick for us!


Oh, and you're welcome.

I like this. Thanks for injecting a little role-playing back into the discussion about this RPG. Also thanks for pointing out the GMs responsibility to decide when detail is needed, and when it is not.

That's a good point: Matrix runs are more boring to watch than those other examples. Obviously, this is up to the GM, but I mean that it's harder for the GM to make them interesting. Theoretically, the Matrix (esp. VR) is a fully detailed world, but it can easily feel like playing Zork without the charm. If this is a recent (SR4) development, then I can see the complaint. I don't think it is, though.

I miss the old way in hacking.

Sure they took a bit more time.
Sure they need a bit more prep.

But holy Cow how much more usable they were in terms of scenario design. I cant count the number of time an intrigue could be short-cuted by the omnipresent, ever-accessible, linked to everything Matrix.

The only defense is to ressort extensively on anti-Wifi paint and other element to counter it. So extensively it just seems the Matrix isn't accessible anymore than before, so why dont bring back the decks ?

Seriously the Matrix 2.0 is very boring from a scenario designer point of view, it's like an ever-present magical wild card : need to locate someone, track a car, open a door, enter any building, start any kind of mechanic or device and control it... The Matrix 2.0 is just too strong and the lack of real structured architecture is heavy.

I really miss the old system map with well identified entering nodes where IC were checking entrance. Nowadays you have to plot and put crypting and databomb and IC on everything, even the cofee-maker or the light-switch.

Just read the rules it's fraking stupid : the best way to counter-act a lack of matrix in an area is to drop some fraking toaster in it...

And thoses area cannot even exist, given the signal rating of the more simplest things.

So I agree there should be a Matrix, and I agree that WiFi should exist. But I disagree that everything that could connect by WiFi is a part of the Matrix and could fully connect to it. It is a wrong design choice.

And i would say that the SR4 rules allow for shorter hacks by design, rather then having the GM shave off rules left and right.

Want to hack some Johnsons comlink? Its rating x across the board, do the rolls. Screw up and the thing starts trying to disconnect the attack, and likely is flagging the owner about the intrusion. should give the rest of the group something to do, if only to assure the Johnson that its not them. To bad that there is not really any automated way for the hacker to get a big virtual "bullseye" on himself when screwing up a hack in AR range.

Wired systems still exist.

Matrix dungeons still exist.

It's in the books people, so if you're not using them, it's because you (or your GM) has decided not to.
Now why would that be?

Huh? I get the impression that they have glanced at the book, or some thread(s) complaining about the new edition, and made their stance based on that.

Its kinda funny really. That one can build a matrix dungeon by stringing together nodes gets a complaint in one place as breaking the streamlining promise, and then another group comes complaining that said dungeons not being there by default is what is wrong about the new edition. I guess it just shows that you can never please everyone at the same time...

This is pretty much it, because it seems the matrix is a cop-out excuse for ANY kind of info, and everything else. You basically don't even need to run anymore. The strongest team is three to four hackers and one delivery guy who they phone when they need to pick up physical goods. And they can basically do without him, too. With Emo-softs and AR personas you don't even need a face. You don't need to shoot stuff because there isn't any team member on site, mostly. You don't need a mage, either, because magical security can't touch you on the matrix. You can do everything by hacking. You hack into the main hosts on info runs, you hack into drones and other shit on sabotage runs, into vehicles, personal commlinks and other stuff on extractions, etc. You don't need gear, because anything you need you can hack into and take over. So... while I may be exaggerating a little here, this is basically my feeling. Do I miss the old matrix - well, no, because in no group I ever played in there were PC deckers, but from a game perspective, the old matrix made more sense, because it made a better game. SR5 could become an all-hackers game, for all I know.

So yeah, the game needs to go to ground lines occasionally, and it makes sense, especially from a security perspective. I see corporate security systems that have wireless disabled by default. Sure there is a matrix connection on the main host, so you can get it, but you can't hack every lock, camera and... kitchen appliance on the fly.

Did that in SR3. Actually, I explained to the GM that I could do the whole run without leaving the meet and gave him time (and a few hints) to protect his adventure from this before resuming the game.

And what made a cyberdeck a cyberdeck?

A cyberdeck follows the same rules as a cyberterminal, except that it has four persona programs (Bod, Evasion, Masking and Sensor). Cyberdecks are considered illegal because of the inclusion of Evasion and Masking programs. A decker could purchase a legal cyberterminal and add Evasion and Masking to the machine to turn it into a cyberdeck.
(Matrix, 3rd Ed)

That's it. In SR4 terms, a cyberdeck is an ordinary matrix device with a spoofed access ID and an armour program.

I've experienced this too.. there are a lot of rules hoops to jump through, that seem to take a lot of time, while there's not very much to "see". I think this is because system sculpting is ignored a lot, because it seems ridiculous. If that IC does the same thing whether it looks like a tiger or not, who cares if it looks like a tiger? The importance of GUI sculpting is just not plausible to contemporary computer-literate players, particularly since it only pretends to matter.

Hacking as a dungeoncrawl isn't a bad analogy. There's a system and you're trying to sneak through it, bypassing or defeating guardians. The mistake was trying to represent a single node as an actual medieval dungeon.

Network maps aren't such a bad idea to define the "arena" of hacking. Having a battlefield with terrain features that actually matter means there are tactical choices and that the player isn't just grinding dice against the system until one of them drops first. It has a lot more potential for an interesting hacking session that other players can bear to watch.

The logical corrollary to this is that Big Hacks happen against networks, not individual (wi-fi) devices. A hack against an individual device shouldn't take more than 2-3 checks; comparable to shooting down a single guard in a building.



I feel that these are two distinct problems. One is that too much information is available, and that supersurveillance really hurts both runners AND plots. I'm not sure what to do about that; it's part of the challenge of RPing in the (post)modern world.


The other is that there's not enough "art" to hacking;



Possible solutions: amp up the rules for slaving, VPNs and encryption a bit. Virtual "wired" networks on the Matrix, with strong enough encryption that you need to begin at the "entrance" nodes, or perform the frighteningly difficult hacks to actually break into the middle. Or gain hardware access to a device and infiltrate that way (comparable to getting access to the wires)

I prefer everything about the previous settings. The setting is amazing. Of course it wasn't paranoid or big brother enough to reflect what will be the future. I think it will be more like "enemy of the state" than anything else. Especially when we have governments using every global event they can to circumvent privacy. It's not like they weren't doing it before. But now they aren't hiding it. I liked the simpler days when everything wasn't monitored by rfid and video. I think those days are gone now. I am guessing in the next 20 years we will have brain wave monitoring, and this version of shadowrun will be remembered with a nostalgiac glow. (entered the conversation late. Was away for the weekend)