Uuuh . . no?
SR3 is basically SR2 with some changes and more stuff . .

That's not fundamental—it can be trivially fixed (reroll, add 5). The problem is that a whole game worth of TNs are built off of the 6=7 probability distribution, so you then need to change everything else.


That's deeply wrong. Dice mechanics are fundamental—they shape how things work. Consider the effect of the d20 system minimum chance of success and failure of 5%, or the SR3 and prior tendency to resist impossibility—TN increases would reduce probability of success, but only threshold increases (which tended to be rare) or defaulting could make something straight-up impossible.

~J

Certainly the dice mechanics have idiosyncratic limitations, but their basic purpose is identical: merely to create probability curves. My point was that they have nothing at all to do with the 'old feeling', unless I've misunderstood that phrase. I took it to mean setting/fluff.

I miss the pools and riggers, also the vehicle selection.

I have to say that this is the best thing about 4th edition. Before (unless you were a mage) you just HAD to have a smartlink if you wanted to be anything besides the team librarian, now it's a good option but you can certainly live without it. Reach was another game breaker where a trolls with polarms could slice up anything else without breaking a sweat, at least now they have to try!

I miss the old wild west feeling, and the sense of defiant idealism, and the way that the original NPC rosters of people like beat cops and even corporate guards were humanized rather than soulless thugs.

Some of it is still there, but it has gotten too tired and cynical. It seems the shadowtalk is nothing but amoral mercenaries, and any more idealistic poster gets told "Okay, go play somewhere. The grownups are talking." I miss when it was more cinematic, when shadowrunners had mullets and mohawks and wore striped spandex instead of grey trenchcoats. When there was more of a clash of idealism versus finding out you're only a cog in the machine after all.


Personally, I found magic to be more overpowered in SR3. The only thing I dislike about it in SR4 is that it there is no hard limit to number of initiations, which there should be, if everything else is capped. Hacking, I actually like a little better, since other members of the group can be involved in it, too, without diminishing the role of the primary hacker. The only thing I don't like about SR4 hacking is that I think the improved ability adept power should not be usable in hot sim.

I didn't like the variable target numbers. They tended to increase too quickly, to the point that no one could do anything. Dice pool bonuses and penalties scale a lot better, in my experience.

The only thing I miss from the old editions are the vehicle creation rules (arsenal did ok, but really didn't do a good job) and the combat karma pools for being part of a group.

Things I did not like in the old editions:

Variable TNs with variable thresholds bugged me. Do one or the other not both.

Deckers and astral where you needed multiple GMs or basically had players do something else while the decker did his thing. You may call it ADD, but I called it a waste of time where people were uninvolved.

Ridiculous skill levels. To be elite you had to have skills in the 9-12 range, which I thought was silly.

Books with tons of empty space. Street Samurai and the paranormal animals both come to mind. The pictures were nice, but half the page was blank white space for each entry.

Loss of magic for adepts and magic users due to damage.

The silly punk theme.

The silly punk theme? You mean cyber-punk instead of cyberpunk?

While I somewhat agree with your point, those two examples don't work for me. Someone with reach should have a large advantage over someone without it. At TN5 and 1 die for being a troll the advantage of reach is trivial at best. Even if you stack it on with 2 reach from a combat axe it is just one success. You have to be a lot better than someone to fight them when they have a significant reach advantage, like sword vs unarmed. Smart gun just 2 dice does not seem like much for the awesome it is supposed to represent in the setting.

I think the static TN might be fine, but I think the choice of TN 5 was a poor one. Look at things like skill descriptions, does a 1/3 of a hit really represent the difference between "Has done this a few times. Can handle some easy tasks, some of the time." and "Has a solid grasp of the fundamentals, but shaky on more complex yet still routine procedures."

The degree of effect gained from a smartgun link and reach more accurately reflected the setting in previous editions than in 4e.

My other issue with the static TN is everything is so focused on pool size that devices seem to lose any feel to them. It doesn't matter what the fluff is, its +3 dice and that is all that matters.

One thing I miss though is skills that are not capped. I hate that rule with a passion, I would have worked on more generic rules to limit pool size than cap a basic like how skilled you can be. Especially when you have 1/3 success rate and a scale of 1-7.

I'm sorry, but what the hell are you talking about?

A normal matrix user (0 skill, programs of 1-3) has 1-3 dice to do anything. And they are operating it manually so they only have 1 IP, and their link is likely in the 1-3 range, so they have around a 4 init. A skilled hacker (4 skill, minimum, 6 program most likely, and at least 3-4 bonus dice) has 13+ dice to do anything, can easily have 5 IP, and with their higher end system, likely have an init around 15. How is that not identical to 'turtle' vs decker from older editions? The only thing they did is set things up so that there weren't randomly two different matrixes, the one that deckers used, and the one that everyone else used . Oh, and I guess the one that riggers used, since they couldn't be hacked. Now everyone plays on the same matrix, and you still have a huge ability gap between 'turtles' and hackers because of *gasp* the DNI that lets hackers use hot sim.

And if you think the new matrix isn't complex, you've obviously never opened unwired.

There's no reason a 'normal user' doesn't have at least 1 skill (maybe not Cracking group) and cold VR (everyone has trodes), actually; they could easily purchase a good link and some programs above 3, too. Hot sim is really a minor bonus that many skilled hackers might not bother with, because of the drawbacks. The gap is certainly smaller, not that I particularly seen anything wrong with that.

Except that there are 2 different matrixes -- VR and AR.

SR3 decking was a lot more complex in the BBB compared to Unwired + BBB. Just the differences in the colors and the difficulty of each made things vastly different and the way you could refine a host for a specific task.

VR and AR are the same Matrix. Same nodes, same users, same programs, same paydata. Easy switching back and forth, unless you angered some IC.

Just run Old school and set the game in the fifties.

Other than needing cyberdecks cause fiberoptic is so much more secure and bandwidth issues for full VR, the game runs great.

double

I could ask you the same question. I'm reminded of the admonishment Billy Madison receives from the mediator of his debate. Nothing you posted had anything to do what what I did.

Yeah now that cyberdecks are smaller than they used to be and have changed their names, the Shadowrun universe will never be the same.

Seriously, after recently re-reading the 2nd edition book and the first novels, I have to admit I didn't find so much differences in the tone. In the novels magic is a bit stranger with a lot of unexplained phenomenons but it doesn't go much further (actually in the novels, the world is a lot more sanitized than in most games I've played). There aren't many differences between the world described in the 2nd edition BBB and the one described in SR4A as far as the text is concerned. The biggest differences are in the pictures and mostly in the hair and clothes.

I'm thinking that the difference lies more in the reader than in the content. It was easier to imagine a 80s flavored Shadowrun in the 90s than two decades later.

(And for the record, I'm currently GMing a very cyberpunk game in SR4A. It has mohawks, a police force that can't handle the gangs even in downtown, strange fringe cults and, generally speaking, a world that probably won't survive more than 20 years and nobody to care about it).

I miss the decker so much I think I will just implement the deck back to the game.

Because there is WiFi everywhere doesn't mind that WiFi is the top way to go. Heck I consider myself a nerd and I use an ethernet connection over the Wifi one because the line is faster, more secure, healthier and less prone to signal interrupts.

I can totally imagine that,even if WiFi Matrix is avaliable it is not the designated medius of choice for hacking. Heck, just look at dumpshock thread about character and hacking and see how many people are building characters with their gear totally out of matrix (skinlink and such).

Only trick is how to incorporate them back to SR4 ?

I also miss the graphic tone, heavily native centered wich give a special taste to the game, SR4A is too bland/generic cyber for me.

I also miss the fact that when playing I was thinking about Gibson, K.Dick, the Neuromancer, Bladerunner movie and such... Now when I am playing I am thinking Ocean 12 and Matrix.

I am totally convinced the game could be successfull by totally embrassing the Retro-Punk style.

Like throwing out the skill defaulting chart, integrating VR2.0 matrix into the main book, getting rid of grounding?

This may be the "major" change, as the pools allowed the players to have to do some decisions about resource expenditure. Most often the combat issue of defense vs offense, or perhaps going full offense in the hopes that it will take down the enemy so there is no need for defense.

On the topic of uncapped skills, anyone recall the old threads where GMs would basically state that they inflated TNs for the basic reason of challenging the high skilled veteran characters?

Maybe the fact that punk was disappearing when SR1 came out. The surf nazi's must die feel was not in the cards.

I always viewed the gang violence as a combination of Predators 2 and Robocop.

Incompetent GMs are an occupational hazard. It's simply not necessary due to the scalability of shifting-target-number, whereas static-TN-with-thresholds has impossibility at the hard end and immunity to normal modifiers at the easy end.

~J

Yes but so was cold VR and hot VR back in the day but Karoline was saying that the old way created two Matrixes as a result. I'm saying that AR and VR are two very different matrixes -- moreso than the old divide between cold/hot. In fact there is actually a different set of mechanics whereas cold VR just meant you were slower not playing on a different ruleset.

For SR4 in general the problem I've found is that, sure the tone didn't change, but the rules did in a way that doesn't support the tone in the same manner. SR4 is Minority Report, not Snowcrash.

VR and AR are the exact same matrix, just different ways of interacting with it. Calling those different matrixes is like saying there are multiple internets because some people use firefox and some people use internet explorer. My point was that in SR3 you had the matrix that deckers ran, then you had the wireless matrix that supported pocket secs and things like that which a Decker apparently couldn't access, and then you had whatever the heck the riggers ran on (might be that second matrix), which also couldn't be touched by deckers.


Did you even read my post? Your post was complaining about how the difference between the decker and turtle has disappeared, and my post was about how the difference didn't disappear. How does that have nothing to do with what you did?

it did sort of dissapear.

Given karma and money a Rigger will pick up Hacker Skills/Programs
Given Karma and money a Hacker will pick up Rigger Skills/Programs

The cyberware they want is almost identical. It's an easy way for a hacker to get in on the meat combats

I think the problem is that hotsim isn't NEARLY awesome enough for the risk. +2 dice? Possibly one more IP over the Adept AR hacker who even boosted his skills with power points? Pfft.

Also, the program thing is really annoying. Legal software? Pirated software? Software degredation because you didn't download your updates regularly?

What happened to manipulating stuff with your BRAIN? Perhaps if every hotsim user could create programs on the fly like Technomancers, then you could get deckers back. As of now, all you need is a wad of cash and a big fat commlink to run the best programs, and you can basically run quite nicely on really average skills. So yeah, I get what Kruger is getting at. There isn't any cyberpunk in the 4E matrix. While I don't think it's bland, it's not cyber. It's just tech, and it's certainly not punk. It's just a bunch of program jockeys downloading warez to keep up to date.

AND I even feel if you take away the fluff, and just go with the rules involved, being a shadowrunner in SR4 is really blood hard, because the surveillance tech got a huge bump, too. The datatrail is much worse than before. Basically the world is too realistic by now to be open to a casual player. Mohawk campaigns have to consciously forget a lot of the stuff that's actually in the books to work, IMHO.

So... while I actually like a lot of the updated content, SR4 feels more like Ghost in the Shell than a character driven, noir, low-life setting.

Realistically if you do not have a technomancer (or a hacker) backtracking everything you do. It's nigh impossible for Shadowrunners to keep doing what they do for very long. Their pictures, their MO's their Auras would be plastered on Corporate Security Desks the world over.

The matrix that the Deckers ran was the same as the matrix accessed by the P-secs, which just required looking for their vanishing san when the P-sec was running it's connection. Of course a decker could just wait on any email or info heaidng to or from the device. If the decker wanted in it was risky because of the short window of Matrix connection and the I/O speed of the grid connection from the p-sec to the 'trix. Plus if the P-sec disconnected then you'd get dumped. Thats why sometimes it was wiser to wait for something to show on a mainframe of get onsite access to the hardware and Deck-direct.

A Rigger network was a self encrypted 'sealed' network that was nothing to do with the Matrix. The VCR and the Rigger adaption modules and Drones ran on their own signals and systems. It was possible to run this Through the Matrix but that was a rarity. More commonly a rigged system encountered the Matrix when it was a building security system, because systems it was connected too ran through the Matrix, or because of other reasons.

In either case a decker could Deck into a Rigged network with the use of some special tools and software but was often at a disadvantage vs the resident Rigger in a contest. Best way to get control of a Rigged system was to usurp it with a Rigger.

I like the fact that they merged rigging and hacking. The only real problems are (as everyone knows:) encryption, and the lack of explicit rules for isolated networks. And I can understand why they'd want to leave out the latter: the Matrix *is* supposed to be *everything*. However, if people are going to buck that by running direct fiber and (theoretically) using microtransceivers, etc., the rules should probably address it. Between everything else you can control, you should be able to turn off the auto-mesh (but only if you're a crazy hacker, really).

I think Karoline was more referring the 1st edition incompatibility of Wireless with the Matrix.

I do think it's a little amusing that in 1E, regular deckers could do stuff like access the Matrix without a deck and program on the fly, but later editions they cannot.



-k

Because your post suggests you have no idea what a turtle was in 1-3ed.

Technomancers still do what Otaku did, with just three differences:
- They are wireless because...well, because the whole world went wireless, and the whole point of TMs/Otaku is that they don't need a commlink/deck to access the matrix
- They are affected by essence loss. A bit strange given their intimate connection to the machine world, but easily explained by the fact that their body is a living cell antenna [insert "bioelectric field" technobabble here]
- Being a starving child with muscle atrophy is no longer a requirement for the job. Move along, nothing negative to be seen here

He's a Spike Baby for Shure

http://www.hypeful.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/jareth.jpg

http://www.astridevelt.de/BowievsJareth.jpg

http://onlyforever.com/l_Jarethpics.html


HougH!
Medicineman

I don't use it or miss it. Still, if I understand the definition correctly this is something that is entirely down to GM style. Either the GM runs this style or they do not.


Not sure what you are talking about. Try telling the street sam in my group that she doesn't have badass attitude.


The feel of the art has changed, which is inevitable given the turnover of artists and developers. Still, the feeling of chaos you feel was better portrayed by the art in 1st and 2nd edition is still completely up to the GM. If your game doesn't have the amount of chaos you, as a player, want to see then blame your GM and not the art in 4th edition.


I miss that style a little too, but I still fail to see how that change in style has any power over how I run my SR game.


Having the Rocker as a primary archetype was always absurd. The only rocker I had in my pre-4th edition games was also the decker. Rocker only makes sense if you are the "Rocker+Face" or some other skill set of actual use to a shadowrunning team.


I must be missing something here. If shadowtalk is what I think it is, then we still have it.


I've read the arguments for cyberdecks and I don't buy it. Using giant Casio keyboards to interact with the Matrix goes against every contemporary computer technology trend. Now, if the mid-1980s future tech projection is what really floats your boat in Shadowrun, then by all means go for it. Just keep in mind that new players starting to play Shadowrun now at age eighteen were born in 1992. Just how many of them are going to be nostalgic for 1980s future-tech? If Shadowrun wants to keep attracting new players and not just appeal to a shrinking, but vocal, player base of grognards the game must change with the times.


I don't get how anyone could "miss" a faceless megacorp. This seems like more nostalgia for the sake of nostalgia.


Not me.

Well, to be fair, Pink Mohawk campaigns pretty much always had to suspend disbelief. Corp Sec Handbook was a 2nd Edition supplement. The Pink Mohawk of the game only existed for about three years. Starting with 2nd Edition the nature of the game started to change dramatically. Rocker archetype and references disappeared, less focus on the silly stuff, and more supporting fluff which eliminated a lot of the more outlandish cyberware as common modifications, etc.

The change was all based on the slow evolution of the game's concept. What they came up with for 1st Edition was a mish-mash of borrowed concepts. The main elements of Neuromancer (cybernetically enhanced professional criminals, vast virtual digital network, world run by giant megacorporations, etc) and Tolkein/Dungeons & Dragons (elves, orks, magic, etc) for the most part. They didn't really put a whole lot of time into thinking it out. The first adventure even had random encounters and was set up as a dungeon crawl.

It was only later that they started to move in a direction that made sense. I don't feel this change made the game harder, it just meant the game finally required the level of "thinking" that it didn't always have. What you choose to use for your game is the acceptable compromise for your suspension of disbelief versus the fun factor and playability. There really isn't a "wrong" way to do it. The fluff goes both ways. Kinda says one thing and does another, really.

Cyberdecks weren't "giant". They were described as being smaller than a normal keyboard, which isn't terribly "giant" when you think that they contain all sorts of complicated electronics and an interface you had to be able to subconsciously operate while you were fully immersed in virtual reality. Kids today know that their laptop can do more than their notepad can do more than their smartphone, the choice of what to use is based on need and convenience. It's not some kind of gigantic leap across a bottomless logic gulf. The 4e commlink was just a copout to the attention deficit disorder that plagued games where people couldn't handle short breaks in game play and couldn't be bothered to learn the rules and adapt them for their table.

Besides, most of AR is 1980s theoretech too.

There's that ADD again. Just to be clear, you're denouncing as mentally aberrant the idea that most of the players *shouldn't* have to stop playing for extended periods while the hacker solo-RPGs?

Agreed with this sentiment.

I think that what it really comes down to is whether or not your setting is spiraling into chaos or not. You can have pink mohawk in Lagos or Chicago CZ and the exact opposite in Neo-Tokyo or Manhattan. Obviously the developers do not have the entirety of the setting spiraling into chaos and social disintegration but that doesn't mean you can't set your Shadowrun game someplace that is.

If you believe that the entire Seattle metroplex in 2050 had that "spiraling into chaos" feel in 1st edition, then you're inevitably going to be disappointed that Seattle isn't a smoking ruin by 2072.

Actually, I'd place the death of pink mohawk at the publishing of the original Seattle Sourcebook. That book assigned security ratings to every neighborhood in the 'plex. From that point on there was no doubt that there were plenty of high-security A-AAA zones in the plex. It was also clear you weren't going to find a bunch of joyriding gangers strapping a cop to the hood of his patrol car in anything fancier than a D zone.

Obviously, you just have ADD.

I have to sit and twirl my fingers while the face does his schmoozing the ladies rolls.
Why can't he sit for a bit while I do my kanoodling the server rolls.

Ew, that's how you catch viruses.

Kids today also know that their smartphone can do what their notepad did a few years ago and their notepad can do what their laptop could do a few years ago and so on. Anyone who is paying attention must realize that the trend of personal computing technology is that everything is converging down to the smartphone (or smaller) size. Once you get haptic interfaces and pico-projectors (both very much in development) going you don't even need screens and keyboards anymore. At that point the actual processing power will likely be cheap and small enough to be built into clothes; so in that way SR4 commlinks are actually underestimating the technology trend. All this without even having to invent DNI.

So, no, I still don't buy the cyberdeck thing at all.


Skating past your repeated use of an actual diagnosable medical condition as a generalized slur, it was the rules changes that did what your accusing commlinks of doing. As an experiment, run Find and Replace 'cyberdeck' for 'commlink' and see if the way the hackers and Matrix work magically turns back into 3rd edition.

Your definition of extended and mine are apparently quite different. Maybe you played in one of those games where the GM didn't know the rules or how to manage his table. The Matrix and decking never got in the way of our ability to have a good time, nor took an inordinate amount of time.

I could do that with banana and pistol and then we could play Shadowcircus.

What else do you want me to call it besides ADD? It's a concept that is easily understood, and despite my less than favorable opinion of an egregiously over-diagnosed disorder to promote chemical solutions to bad parenting and poor young adult self control, I use the term ADD because you all know what it means and it succinctly describes a style of play which is focused entirely on constant individual participation instead of group dynamic to play a game.

In SR1-SR3 the time spent doing each of those tasks was not equal. Not by a long shot. Unless the vast majority of players and GMs were all 'doin it wrong.'

It was the same reason I never ran Astral Quests in the middle of regular gaming sessions. It's the reason why I still don't run major Matrix intrusions in midst of a regular session. SR4 just made it easier to do some of the hacking in a time frame comparable to that of every other specialist's shtick.

Bingo.

Schmoozing the ladies typically didn't take an hour and a half of realtime.

The point is that solo time is fundamentally the opposite of 'group dynamic'. Taking turns in combat or conversation is one thing, Matrix runs were (are) quite another. We all know this, and it has nothing to do with seflishness or lack of attention span.

Although, having seen an autistic kid with /real/ add..

It's most definitely a serious illness.