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I agree, except with the D&D part.


(I find the old Elmore, Eisley, Brom, Diterlizzi, etc. drawings much better than new ones)

The art in 4A is fucking amazing.

Better than Arsenal, anyway.

I dunno. I kinda like the illustrations of the various firearms a damn sight better than the weird backlit gunmetal pictures in 4A. I also like the ORIGINAL SR4 gear listing chapter a LOT better than I like 4A. I don't have to, for example, read up on Sniper rifles, then flip two pages to get to their stats. Or look at the special rules on each Heavy Pistol and then have to flip back and forth trying to see if it has a smartgun built in and if the magazine size is better than the other one. Or hunt out which page has the right bio/cyberware I'm trying to pick out.

If I may go back to the deck vs. commlink debate, and how VR was never the same. It's up to both the players and GM's in bringing the Matrix rather than the dice to the fore. Describe the node, let them browse it or search through it for the appropriate software, make them interact with the IC, or spider; and describe their program, aswell as what it does virtually.

Most GM's never go for trying to describe an electron horizon waving over the digital jungles and pyramids of Aztech.com. You have to be willing to immerse yourself.

Laubenstein is going to be doing some new original artwork for RedBrick's new Earthdawn book on Cathay. He is iconic in the Earthdawn crowd because his work IS what made it more than just another D&D clone. I definitely agree that the aesthetic of the earlier artists really made SR feel different. As much as the history of the NAN doesn't always make sense the feel and look of it is integral to the setting. The cover of the original Seattle Sourcebook probably did more to sell the game than anything combined -- a dragon flying past the Space Needle.

Deck vs. Commlink: it is far easier to describe the VR in older editions for me because the rules do more to make it feel like a living place. Nodes just seem like things that you interact with briefly before you have what you need. Hosts where like their own little mini-fortresses. They were also far more descriptive in just their description -- if it was Red I knew it was going to be tough. With nodes the entire rules seem to be built around "gotcha!" moments. That's not saying the earlier versions didn't have those but you didn't need them to create difficulty. To put it another way: I felt that Hosts were where I went to work whereas Nodes just feel like tools. It's the difference between being in a gunfight and holding a gun. YMMV.

That's a very interesting take actually. Go on please.

Also, what does that have to do with deck vs. commlink?

Lol. Technically nothing. But both are supposed to be tools for how you interact with the Matrix. Just to get this out of the way: Wireless hacking existed in SR3 (didn't really play earlier versions so I'll stick with what I know). So you can access VR in the same way in both games. So this isn't about wireless/wired. AR is a different beast which was meant to be a simplification and enhancement to the RAS override rules.

A commlink is a pocket secretary mixed with a deck. It doesn't really feel any different than any other piece of gear. In fact you can build a commlink out of your clothes and a credstick if I remember Unhinged correctly. You have 3 Matrix stats (the other is a simplification of the bad old Flux rules) 2 of which are completely dependent on the other so they will usually be the same. As a result of this all your commlinks will generally look the same: System = Response ~> Firewall ~> Signal. Because they are so cheap you will always have access to the same ratings.

Your program load is limited by your System/Response and all your programs are always and instantly (Simple action anyway) available to you. So you will almost always have max rated copies of all Programs available to you during a hack attempt. this means that Resource Allocation is not an important part of Game Play.

Your deck on the other hand is very different from the rest of your electronics -- even an RC deck. You have an MPCP that limits your 4 matrix stats and defines them. There are very definite advantages to each of those stats and allocation is limited. If you want a brute force deck you will prioritize Bod and Evasion whereas a sleaze deck will prioritize Masking and Sensors. Now, there are suddenly advantages to having multiple decks -- because of a benefit to specialization there is a benefit to having multiple decks. Choice of warpaint for each deck is important. In the movie Hackers everyone had their own personal style for their boxes.

Programs is where things got bookish and probably a big part of the reason people got turned off. You had Active and Storage memory and I/O speed. Each program had an exponential load out cost that ate up Active memory. You only had access to your Active and Storage memory on a run. There were many ways around Storage memory such that all your programs were available to you during a decking run and part of the reason why they did away with memory. Switching programs was another matter entirely. This was dependent on your I/O speed and could take a long time if you were loading a large, complex program (not all programs were on the same scale). These things combined meant that in the early game you had to really strategize how you were going to approach a particular decking run and set things up ahead of time or else you were fried. Once you became cool your deck was usually good enough that you could ignore most of this (the starting point for a Hacker).

I'm going to ignore Agents and S-Ks since they are a PITA in both editions.

Last point is the same thing I was hammering on up-thread -- costs. Commlinks are so cheap and generic now that they are just like any other Light Pistol. Toss it in the trash when done and pick up another one. Decks are very personal and tend to grow alongside your character -- either you graduate to a new deck or upgrade your old one. They can also reflect your personal style -- Brute or Sleaze.

So again, there is very little difference between a Deck and Commlink, they are both tools to interact with an object, but the feeling and uses for each are VASTLY different as a result of the depth of the rules. A Street Sam with a good Agent cannot replace a Decker (playtested). But he can replace a Hacker (playtested).

PS. Technomancers kick the crap out of Otaku so that and AR are your 2 improvement points.

I miss variable staging and the skill web. Now get off my lawn.

None of my 1st ed players looked like most of the book, but we had a fairly methodical group. If they ever do a Shadowrun MMO, I'd like it to use some of those 1st ed mechanics. I am not tied to any edition, it's more a matter of having a good group than anything else. The mechanics are necessary to provide tension to the group story, but they shouldn't ever get in the way of a good moment.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled wall of text.

Firewall is not dependent on any of the other stats.

As for load speed and such, here as some quickies:

active memory, x2 system. each program takes up its rating in active memory. so if you run a r6 system, you can at best have 2 r6 programs going.

load speed, response. want to load a rating 6 program quickly, better have that response handy.

and right now i had some odd deja vu...

I know firewall is independent. But you don't necessarily have it equal to system and response.

So you're saying you give up points of response temporarily to upload a program at a number of program ratings equal to the response used up? So if you have Response 6 you give up 2 points and spend 3 actions to load up a rating 6 program? Does your system lower temporarily as you do this or do you treat it as a virtual reduction?

I think you are off the mark on the active memory fix somewhat. Not all programs are of equal value so running that Common Use program compared to your Hacking program (such as Stealth) is too big of a penalty. SR3 used Rating x Rating x Multiplier and the multiplier was what gave you your different values (ie. Sleaze/Stealth was a higher multiplier than Analyze or whatever it was called). Maybe System x2 with Common Use = 1 point and Hacking = rating/2. Program options +1 to load per option?

Still doesn't really solve the problem of commlinks becoming characterless. That's the crux of my feelings on decks -- they were often characters in their own right.

I have the opposite experience... Decks were just high-end computers (Played a Decker in 2nd Edition, not really in 3rd)... I really could have cared less beyond the statistics of the machine that I built as a Hacker (which were generally better than what you could buy for less than the Most expensive Deck)... It was a resource you needed to hack the matrix, and nothing more...

Comlinks are the same now...

Comlinks are simply Hardware that is needed to run the Matrix, and really, nothing more than that.

Hacking was made easier in 4th Edition, because many people complained about the complexity of the system pre-4th edition... I, for one, appreciate the change a Hundred Fold. Not because I did not like the complexity of the Matrix Decking in previous editions (I did), but because almost everyone I gamed with hated the complexity of the Matrix... 4th Edition has evened that sentiment out in my experience. I have seen an order of magnitude more Hackers (or more) in 4th Edition than I ever saw a Decker in all the previous editions combined. This is a good thing IMHO...

Cheers...

Not to discount your experience because yours is just as valid as anyone else's but seriously this comes down to marketing and presentation. When they were making SR4 Fanpro kept pounding the selling point of "we made the Matrix easier to use and hackers can now go on runs with the rest of the group." When I was introduced to Shadowrun the group told me "Decking is too complicated so we don't use it" (after I'd learned the rules inside and out). Shadowrun had a reputation that the Matrix rules were complicated.

In SR3 this was untrue. Presentation of it was clunky. They listed a separate System Operation for every single Analyze and Locate action you could take. For instance Analyze Host or Analyze Icon. The only other annoying part was that if you were on an illegal jackpoint you were supposed to roll to hack the LTG and any RTGs you were accessing. But an actual decking run was pretty easy and fast and could be integrated easily with the rest of the team.

In SR4 they condensed Analyze and Data Search into one listing. Instead of separate actions the one action says you can do it to Nodes and Icons. They also got rid of the switchboards which was a mixed bag -- less rolls for an illegal access but it is incredibly hard to find a Node now. Encryption is so long to break that all their promises of being able to hack stuff on the fly is wrong. There are just as many dice rolls involved and on average your dice pools are bigger in SR4 than in SR3 meaning more dice to be rolled and counted.

People are trying the Matrix because groups are saying you can do it now. After we ditched the old players my group never had problems finding deckers in SR3. Because we didn't warn people off by saying it was too hard.

All very valid points...
I have always loved the Matrix (Though it was a bit clunky in previous editions on occassion, it was something that you COULD get past with experience), it is just that in previous editions it was an impediment to the "TEAM" oriented aspect of the run, which is not as glaring now as it was then.

As far as the Fluff of the Matrix Setup, that can still exist, if the GM is willing to take the time to set it up that way. I have never had issues with Finding Nodes in the games I play in, and Encryption is generally acknowledged as nothing more than a speed bump at best in 4th Edition (Rarely takes me more than a single Combat Round to bypass Encryption). WHich is okay with me as well. To Make a Hacker (or Decker, if you prefer) useable as an integral part of the team, you have to simplify some things, and I think that SR4A has accomplished that very very well...

As for Decks vs. Comlinks debate... You can still set up your comlinks like you described your Deck being set up. In fact, I have seen on Dumpshock (and have done so myself) comlinks set up as a Deck, that cost upwards of 200,000 Nuyen to manufacture... if you want something like that, all you have to do is make it yourself, and then convince your GM that it is worthwhile... Personally, I still believe that the hardcore Deckers STILL use their "Decks" instead of Comlinks to Hack the World... nothing wrong with that, even if a little anachronistic... Hell, you could even set up yoru Cyberdeck as a Nexus should you want to do so... though it will obviously be a bit less portable than that Fairlight Excaliber Deck you may have had in the past...

Hell, My current Character's Hacking Setup runs close to 300,000 Nuyen or so... it ain't cheap to remain on the Bleeding Edge of the Hacking World...