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hobgoblin
Maybe they never had the in game chance to learn them? Not everything is a numbers game.
CanRay
QUOTE (Slithery D @ Aug 23 2011, 04:05 AM) *
Serrin Shamandar has a couple of levels in Carromoleg (with the benefits improperly called maneuvers)
OK, IIRC, Carromoleg is a heavy kicking style, how did Serrin "Gimpy Leg" Shamandar learn it? nyahnyah.gif

And, yeah, Martial Arts isn't everything.
Patrick Goodman
QUOTE (Slithery D @ Aug 23 2011, 03:05 AM) *
To try to get this back on track, I'm a little disappointed more of them didn't have martial arts, and none of them used it effectively.

I speak for no one but myself on this, but I had a brain fart. I really didn't consider it because I apparently have an aversion to Arsenal. Looking back, I think I might go ahead and come up with an alternate stat block for Martin de Vries one of these days, one which incorporates those rules.

Basically, I wasn't thinking clearly. Sorry.
CanRay
I blame the American Educational System and Television. nyahnyah.gif
hobgoblin
QUOTE (CanRay @ Aug 23 2011, 04:48 PM) *
I blame the American Educational System and Television. nyahnyah.gif

Huh? That is one and the same...
CanRay
Oh, riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

Xander Cage: "Obviously the car doesn't belong to me, it's not my style. It belongs to Dick. Dick Hotchkiss, a California state senator. You remember Dick? He's the guy who tried to ban rap music because he feels that the lyrics promote violence. It's music, Dick! He's also the guy who wants to pull every video game off every shop in the country, because he feels that the video games diminishing intelligence of our youth. Oh, come on, Dick. It's only education we got." - xXx
Neurosis
QUOTE (Slithery D @ Aug 23 2011, 04:05 AM) *
To try to get this back on track, I'm a little disappointed more of them didn't have martial arts, and none of them used it effectively. Serrin Shamandar has a couple of levels in Carromoleg (with the benefits improperly called maneuvers), Thorn has three random advantages with no source listed (and no maneuvers), and Miles Lanier has a nice bit of power gaming through some boxing advantages.

But that's it. No one uses maneuvers, the best of which are a hell of a lot better than the advantages, and some of the samurai types are missing some good character opportunities, like Sticks with Arnis de Mano and some weapon/disarm maneuvers that would fit the character's combat concept nicely.


Lugh Surehand has four maneuvers (Evasion, Ground Fighting, Kick Attack, Watchful Guard), but the situation where he'd actually have to use them would be an odd one indeed; maybe if he was showing off or training in hand to hand by being attacked by seven ninjas at one time, Marvel Comics Kingpin style, if he was in a Rating 16 Background Count, or if he was taking the whole masking/extended masking thing a bit too far when trying to appear mundane. On the other hand, I do now realize I failed to list his Advantages: consider him to have all of the Carromeleg based Martial Arts advantages to go with his four listed Maneuvers.

And if you tell Miles Lanier that he is power gaming, he will probably punch you for 10P.

QUOTE
I speak for no one but myself on this, but I had a brain fart. I really didn't consider it because I apparently have an aversion to Arsenal.


I think Arsenal may be my favorite SR4 book, period (not counting either of the BBBs, obviously).
hobgoblin
QUOTE (CanRay @ Aug 23 2011, 05:08 PM) *
Oh, riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

Xander Cage: "Obviously the car doesn't belong to me, it's not my style. It belongs to Dick. Dick Hotchkiss, a California state senator. You remember Dick? He's the guy who tried to ban rap music because he feels that the lyrics promote violence. It's music, Dick! He's also the guy who wants to pull every video game off every shop in the country, because he feels that the video games diminishing intelligence of our youth. Oh, come on, Dick. It's only education we got." - xXx

wink.gif
CanRay
QUOTE (Neurosis @ Aug 23 2011, 11:10 AM) *
I think Arsenal may be my favorite SR4 book, period.
I do as well, but I have a special love for gear books, Gun Porn, Vehicle Porn, and other such wonderful things.

Which makes me grit my teeth at the PDF-Only items now coming to DTF with items that I can't get unless I buy everything again. frown.gif
hermit
And this is what happens when you overly rush an otherwise okay project.

I wonder of a copy of Street Legends will burst into flames of you hit it on the back with another book.
Stahlseele
Is it made in china?
If so, it may explode.
CanRay
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Aug 23 2011, 11:25 AM) *
Is it made in china?
If so, it may explode.
You're thinking Runner's Toolkit. Which got on the slow boat. And then the Truck with the easily distracted driver. nyahnyah.gif
hermit
Well, I was more thinking of the Pinto. But I guess China is a good guess as to where CGL's stuff is printed these days.
Bull
IIRC, Street Legends was printed domestically.

Bull doesn't have any because, well, he never did. Simple as that. It never made sense for him to learn, and he never really was much of an unarmed fighter anyway. He learned some basic brawling for those rare times when he's disarmed, but his style is all brute-force bar-brawling, no finesse.

I may see about doing up an "Unofficial" stat block for him at some point, with all his bells and whistles. He's missing a few things that I left off for either simplicities sake or, in one instance, because the rules don't quite cover a piece of his gear (When we were trapped in Bug City, he got what was basically a halberd, with the head enchanted with a "Slay bug" spell permanently attached.)

That and the fact that his primary skills were all above 6. Stupid skill caps.

Bull
Patrick Goodman
QUOTE (hermit @ Aug 23 2011, 11:22 AM) *
And this is what happens when you overly rush an otherwise okay project.

Well, that may be, but to be fair to the rest of the project, Martin's lack of martial arts didn't have much to do with the project being rushed. That was pretty much all me and some distractions I had in the real world at the time not letting me think clearly.

QUOTE
I wonder of a copy of Street Legends will burst into flames of you hit it on the back with another book.

Only the '74 model, especially if you painted it red.... wink.gif
CanRay
QUOTE (hermit @ Aug 23 2011, 11:53 AM) *
Well, I was more thinking of the Pinto. But I guess China is a good guess as to where CGL's stuff is printed these days.
Only the Runner's Toolkit. Everything else appears to have been printed in the US or Canada. I check every now and then, as I like encouraging locally made items.

Runner's Toolkit, however, could not have been made locally and still been affordable. frown.gif Too bad, too. I wish I lived in a time when North Americans built things...
Stahlseele
QUOTE (Patrick Goodman @ Aug 23 2011, 10:29 PM) *
Well, that may be, but to be fair to the rest of the project, Martin's lack of martial arts didn't have much to do with the project being rushed. That was pretty much all me and some distractions I had in the real world at the time not letting me think clearly.


Only the '74 model, especially if you painted it red.... wink.gif

Well, DeVriess does not NEED any Martial Arts either, in my eyes . .
When you read Terminus Experiment, you basically see him as using his vampire body to do fast and efficient stuff.
Run towards guy, lift up by the neck, snap neck. That kind of stuff. But usually, he does not duke it out physically.
He just slings a spell at problems.
CanRay
So... He just "Goes Vader" on people?
Stahlseele
Basically.
As far as i remember.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Aug 23 2011, 03:22 PM) *
Well, DeVriess does not NEED any Martial Arts either, in my eyes . .
When you read Terminus Experiment, you basically see him as using his vampire body to do fast and efficient stuff.
Run towards guy, lift up by the neck, snap neck. That kind of stuff. But usually, he does not duke it out physically.
He just slings a spell at problems.


Hmmmmm... He's a Vampire? It is Sad when the Memory fades... frown.gif
Stahlseele
He actually only started hunting them after his wife got turned by a vampire.
He started with his wife and child. Because his wife was pregnant, when she got turned.
And her dead body decided to kick out the baby. But the baby had been infected too.
So it actually "survived" being stillborn. And was a vampire too. Not daywalker, mind you.
Somewhere along the road he let himself be turned to better understand his prey.
And to become more powerfull than you can ever imagine.
He actually only drains other vampires to survive.
And has a one off magical thingamabob that makes him not need it as much as others do, i think.
And he was an initiated mage even before having been turned.
Turns out turning makes you better at magic too, if you know how to.
hermit
QUOTE
Well, that may be, but to be fair to the rest of the project, Martin's lack of martial arts didn't have much to do with the project being rushed. That was pretty much all me and some distractions I had in the real world at the time not letting me think clearly.

It's a blunder that can happen to a writer. That's what proofing and the Editor checking everything is for. It's not like these books are fanworks which are essentially one person's work ... and this is where proofing and editing comes in. Especially with a large number of very inexperienced authors, thats hould be a higher priority than it seems to be (for comparison, Pegasus lists some 10 editors and a head developer for Corp Dossier, and some 10 proofers - and that's for a product that was, compared to recent disasters, okay).

QUOTE
Only the '74 model, especially if you painted it red....

I thought that makes it faster? grinbig.gif

QUOTE
I like encouraging locally made items.

So do I. Plus, I like Pegasus' creed.

QUOTE
Runner's Toolkit, however, could not have been made locally and still been affordable.

Don't know. Pegasus manages, too - their books ARE a bit more expensive than CGL's, at around 29 to 35 Euros for a normal book, but they are hardcover, with a very nice binding, on nice paper, and usually with integrated Errata, extra stuff and the works. And I have a hard time imagining printing costs in Germany to be lower than in the States. The translated Toolkit will apparently also be a box, though no price has been released yet, to my knowledge. I don't know if the German print market is vastly different from the US market, but especially in an economic downturn, I'd expect print shops to be happy for every customer ...? *shrugs* But I don't profess to know this business very well.

QUOTE
He actually only started hunting them after his wife got turned by a vampire.

And their unborn child. Which burst out of her body and tried to drain him. Kinda like Bella Swan's baby, only more bitey (but neither breaking her spine nor making her vomit fountains of blood).
Patrick Goodman
And it sounds like I didn't munge his backstory too badly. This pleases me.
Stahlseele
QUOTE (Patrick Goodman @ Aug 24 2011, 12:54 AM) *
And it sounds like I didn't munge his backstory too badly. This pleases me.

DeVriess is actually a fairly nice guy character wise . .
hermit
But he IS batshit.
Stahlseele
No, he is mostly sane.
He just is a bit melodramatic . .
Critias
As far as why Thorn's just got a random smattering of Martial Arts abilities, without a specific art listed? Well, only one can give you Ready Weapon and Take Aim as Free Actions (so why take the time to spell out that they're from Krav Maga?), and while +1 DV for Unarmed can come from quite a few, I just didn't feel like investing the word count in the...well...wordy way that Arsenal makes MA's work. Easier just to list the goodies he'd pick up from them, I thought, since I was already over wordcount from text and the rest of his sheet.

I guess in retrospect it would've given folks a better stylistic feel for how he fights (in that same sort of Jason Bourne/Taken sort of way, which is ironically actually Kali and not Krav, like most people thing), but ah well.

If the biggest complaints I get about Thorn are his lack of a Martial Art being detailed, I think things could be a lot worse. I want people to be happy with their product, of course, but in the greater scheme of things it matters more to me that the character makes sense, fits into the game world, gives people some story ideas, and otherwise adds to Shadowrun as a whole.
Patrick Goodman
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Aug 23 2011, 05:57 PM) *
DeVriess is actually a fairly nice guy character wise . .

Well, years of doing this kind of thing...it can wear on you. One thing I wish I'd had was about 1000 more words, so I could get into the dichotomy of his character a bit more. Just couldn't make it all fit as was. Maybe later.

And I always kind of found him to be a bit of an asshole, which is why I wrote things the way I did.

QUOTE (hermit @ Aug 23 2011, 06:13 PM) *
But he IS batshit.

Oh, yes. Mad as a hatter, I think. smile.gif
CanRay
Hatters wish they were as crazy as DeVriess.
Grinder
The editing is really shoddy in this book - some entries list augmentations in upper cases (like Bull's at pg. 89), which has been the rule since SR1, while others list augmentations in lower cases (like Sticks' on pg. 69)...
Bull
There is actually some weirdness in how SR4 handles capitalization. We have a style guide, but because of the weirdness, it's hard to always follow it.

The blanket rule (for whatever reason) is that gear and 'ware is lower case. unless it has a rating or is a brand name, in which case it's capitalized.

So grapple gun is lower case, but Ares Predator is capitalized. For cyber, datajack should not be capitalized, but Dermal Sheath 2 would be.

Like I said, it's a bit odd. I tend to capitalize names, and I've been doing this a lot longer than 4th ed, and as you note some of the rules were a little different in earlier editions, so I often leave stuff capped that shouldn't be.

QUOTE
Augmentations: Datajack x2, Cerebral Booster 3, Encephelon 2, Math SPU, Mnemonic Enhancer 3, Synaptic Booster 3, Simsense Booster, Smartlink (all Betaware)


In that, Datajack *is* capped, because it's the first word in the list. I think. Though I should have alphabetized the list, so Cerebral booster 3 should have been first, but anyway. Along with that, simsense booster and smartlink should have been lower case as well. I'm not sure about the the SPU, but I'd guess it should be "math SPU". It's also hard to tell sometimes what is a brand name or even proper name, and what's not.

Also, under gear, Vision Enhancement 3 should have been capped.

And finally, I cheated. Bull's contacts should have had a rating, and the rating caps at 3, so he's totally over max with how many mods on on those. The no prize answer is that Bull has a set of custom designed contacts that hold more data than normal, but the real answer is that I goofed. He generally wears a set of mirrorshades anyways, so the mods should be split between the two devices. (To make life easier on everyone, we kinda house ruled ratings out for contacts/glasses/goggles ages ago, and I simply forgot about it. I've been doing the same thing in missions too, I realize).

Bull
Slithery D
Statwise I feel Sticks is the worst, just because his augmentations make no sense. That's it?!?
Stahlseele
Bull, just because i am german, and those are all names of things . . can't you fix that stupid guide line to capitalize all augmentations all the time?
Or have the augmentations and gear in CAPS LOCK?
Bull
Not my call, Stahl. The Style guide was set up when SR4 was initially designed, so we're following it in a likely vain attempt to be consistent (though honestly, I can't think of a single SR4 book that's really been consistent with it anyway).

At the end of the day, so long as the names and numbers are correct, I guess it doesn't mater too terribly much. Few people really notice that sort of thing anyway.

Bull
Stahlseele
bah, it should be your call with your reputation . . < = that's a play on words that only works in german i am afraid . .
Grinder
QUOTE (Bull @ Aug 24 2011, 09:17 PM) *
Few people really notice that sort of thing anyway.


True that, but it ticks me off nontheless. nyahnyah.gif I'm all with Stahlseele - capitalize 'em all!
CanRay
QUOTE (Bull @ Aug 24 2011, 02:17 PM) *
Not my call, Stahl. The Style guide was set up when SR4 was initially designed, so we're following it in a likely vain attempt to be consistent (though honestly, I can't think of a single SR4 book that's really been consistent with it anyway).

At the end of the day, so long as the names and numbers are correct, I guess it doesn't mater too terribly much. Few people really notice that sort of thing anyway.

Bull
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Aug 24 2011, 02:19 PM) *
bah, it should be your call with your reputation . . < = that's a play on words that only works in german i am afraid . .
Bull the writer, maybe.

Bull the character, certainly. Doesn't he have some kind of Psychotropic IC that makes someone think they're a little girl that he can sick on people?
Hagga
I think most infected, especially the Ordo, will have another name for DeVries' 'Guild' - Dinner. So convenient to have it delivered to your door, essence and all. I liked the write up, though, even if the dragons didn't have their proper stats (Fuck you, I win, specifically, written on the stat line)
CanRay
Speaking of this, it's at some FLGS' now! My FLGS/Army Surplus Store over ordered, and I'm a little upset that I can't help them by getting a copy.

They also over-ordered "Runner's Black Book", which has cemented my decision in getting it. Support your FLGS after all, and I was on the fence anyhow.
Patrick Goodman
QUOTE (Hagga @ Sep 15 2011, 10:36 PM) *
I think most infected, especially the Ordo, will have another name for DeVries' 'Guild' - Dinner. So convenient to have it delivered to your door, essence and all.

Oh, come now, give them a little credit. You haven't even seen what they can do yet. Hell, I haven't seen what they can do yet. I've got some idea and some plans, but haven't had the chance to discuss them muich. Maybe if I do that sequel e-book on the Infected....

That said, some of them might be dinner. Some of them might be Blade. Most of them will be somewhere in between. The vast majority of them will be at least competent; vampire hunting is not a forgiving profession, after all.

We'll have to see how it all shakes out. But don't sell them short.
Paul
And anything is in how you run it. need it to be a little more powerful at your table? Beef it up. Don't want to use it? Don't. It's a game folks not the ten commandments.
Patrick Goodman
QUOTE (Paul @ Sep 16 2011, 09:49 AM) *
And anything is in how you run it. need it to be a little more powerful at your table? Beef it up. Don't want to use it? Don't. It's a game folks not the ten commandments.

This.
Hagga
QUOTE (Patrick Goodman @ Sep 16 2011, 06:04 AM) *
Oh, come now, give them a little credit. You haven't even seen what they can do yet. Hell, I haven't seen what they can do yet. I've got some idea and some plans, but haven't had the chance to discuss them muich. Maybe if I do that sequel e-book on the Infected....

That said, some of them might be dinner. Some of them might be Blade. Most of them will be somewhere in between. The vast majority of them will be at least competent; vampire hunting is not a forgiving profession, after all.

We'll have to see how it all shakes out. But don't sell them short.


At least a minority would have to be "It looks easy on the trids, I've got my silver cross, my wooden stakes and garlic - that's good enough, right?" - not realising that they're imitation silver, plaswood and soy, respectively. Which might be a little problem unless they've got that psychosomatic allergy to holy symbols (am I the only one who finds the idea of a vampire casually leaning against a cross hilarious, until it turns around, notices the cross is there and suddenly bursts into flames?) The vast superiority of most type 1 infected over the population makes me think they'd have to be group-fighters or something, drilled to work as a team. The good ones, anyway.

Oh well. We'll see.
Paul
I'll be honest. In my games I toss a lot of the pink mohwak stuff as written in the books. I generally ignore anything related to YoTC and WoTC, and anything remotely resembling manga or anime is pretty heavily frowned upon. We have a blast using the materials as a baseline-not as gospel. I agree that in some areas SR4 lacks, but like many out there I'll support the game because I love it. This is not to say I don't think constructive critiques shouldn't be offered, but rather we need to separate the wheat from the chaff.
CanRay
Well, we have another reason to whip out the nunchaku and three-section staff.
hobgoblin
QUOTE (Hagga @ Sep 18 2011, 02:10 AM) *
(am I the only one who finds the idea of a vampire casually leaning against a cross hilarious, until it turns around, notices the cross is there and suddenly bursts into flames?)

Brings to mind those claiming to be allergic to EM waves, tho with less fireworks.
hobgoblin
QUOTE (Paul @ Sep 18 2011, 02:23 AM) *
I'll be honest. In my games I toss a lot of the pink mohwak stuff as written in the books. I generally ignore anything related to YoTC and WoTC, and anything remotely resembling manga or anime is pretty heavily frowned upon.

Speaking of psychosomatic, seems someone has a allergy to catgirls. Never mind that such creature in the book could only find work in the porn industry post-surge...
Paul
I've been lucky. My players all pretty much abhor anime and the pink mohawk crowd as much as I do. So when we hit the articulated tail section in Augmentation we all just chuckle, shake our heads and flip the page.
HunterHerne
QUOTE (Paul @ Sep 18 2011, 10:06 AM) *
I've been lucky. My players all pretty much abhor anime and the pink mohawk crowd as much as I do. So when we hit the articulated tail section in Augmentation we all just chuckle, shake our heads and flip the page.


Yeah, not so much a fan of the tail augmentations in general. At least the Surge tails you can write off as being "inflicted" with it, but I can't think of anyone (other then furries at least) that would want a tail augmentation. And even then, it would be a custom design and not outwardly mechanical.
CanRay
Duct tape a switchblade to that sucker and you got three limbs in a knife fight! biggrin.gif
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