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Sengir
QUOTE (hermit @ Aug 11 2011, 06:53 PM) *
Firstly, he is an over the top sue. He has an icon that does things an Icon cannot do because he is such a special snowflake, he meets every important person in SR1/2 and is on rather good footing with them (seriously, Lofwyr praised him)

It's a novel, not a campaign log, so of course he pulled off some crazy stunts. wink.gif
And as the first series novels, it is understandable that the author used it as sort of a "world tour"

QUOTE
and he killed two people: Wyllis HydeWhyte the Toxyc Shyman and some poor guard at Renraku who was just doing his job. Thast guilt weighed heavily on his good christian soul and made him a pacifist (and angst page upon page).

So one has to be a pacifist to refuse killing people in cold blood during a B&E job? Sounds more like generally accepted (IRL) morality to me. Even among the various varieties of intentional homicide, offing someone to facilitate or cover another crime is usually considered to be particularly bad.

QUOTE
Oh yes, and he is the only person (including dragons) to ever single-handedly have fought a Passion and won. Ah, did I mention that while doing this he runs a Great Ghost Dance because he is so fucking special he learns that too?

Yeah, that was over the top...you don't just assemble a couple of guys and do a ghost dance...

QUOTE
Thirdly, his characterisation is hideusly incoherent. So he is a Good Christian WASP as that fascist Charette likes them, and at the same time worships heathen spirits. Oh, AND he doesn't even believe in magic! And while he is a pacifist, he totally does not oppose others do the killing (and maiming, and torture) for him, which goes agaisnt the entire idea of pacifism.

charette novels are good enough action pron for adolescents, but read as an adult, I can't help but wonder whether he wove all this antisemite and white supremacist crap in knowingly or unknowingly.

seriously, is there anything you don't manage to read an anti-anything subtone into? grinbig.gif



@Fortinbras
QUOTE
None of the other Whites did.
Come to think of it, I can't think of any old school otaku whose icon was identical, or even similar, to themselves. It came with the idea of using the Matrix to escape their terrible, Dickensian lives within their tribes and so created a new reality for themselves.

Matrix explicitly mentions that an Otaku's standard icon is an "idealized version of his physical appearance"...sure, otaku like to show off with extravagant icons just as other deckers do, but there's always people who like to show off by not showing off like the others do wink.gif



@Prime Mover: The announcement for Conspiracy Theories sounds a bit like that
Mäx
QUOTE (Prime Mover @ Aug 12 2011, 07:10 PM) *
Would luv to see a SoTA sourcebook full of cool prototypes experimental tech and magic. Nifty toys to steal for cold cash or personal use.

SoTA pdf book is in the pipeline according to Jason.
CanRay
QUOTE (Sengir @ Aug 12 2011, 11:27 AM) *
Matrix explicitly mentions that an Otaku's standard icon is an "idealized version of his physical appearance"...sure, otaku like to show off with extravagant icons just as other deckers do, but there's always people who like to show off by not showing off like the others do wink.gif
The high level of resolution of their avatars was arrogance enough for some Otaku. Especially in those days.
Neurosis
I completely agree with everything Sengir had to say in defense of Never Deal With A Dragon.

I love that book. Step off my childhood, dude.

As I recall the sequels are in fact much less good. But I do think the "Bob Charette is a nazi" talk is totally uncalled for.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Neurosis @ Aug 12 2011, 11:24 AM) *
I completely agree with everything Sengir had to say in defense of Never Deal With A Dragon.

I love that book. Step off my childhood, dude.

As I recall the sequels are in fact much less good. But I do think the "Bob Charette is a nazi" talk is totally uncalled for.


Indeed... Why is it that Godwin's Law always has to rear it ugly head, eventually? *Shakes Head*
CanRay
It's the Internet. You're surprised?

EDIT: I just realized something... Does Godwin's Law apply to Mel Brooks movies?
Brazilian_Shinobi
QUOTE (CanRay @ Aug 12 2011, 04:01 PM) *
It's the Internet. You're surprised?

EDIT: I just realized something... Does Godwin's Law apply to Mel Brooks movies?


SPAAAAAAAAAACE JEWS!
Stahlseele
And he STILL owes us another SpaceBalls . .
He said:"If lucas does three more, i will do one more too"
Blitz66
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Aug 12 2011, 08:34 PM) *
And he STILL owes us another SpaceBalls . .
He said:"If lucas does three more, i will do one more too"

Yeah, but it will be tough to make more of a joke of Star Wars than Lucas did...
CanRay
Mel Brooks and his family can do it.

The man made World War II a joke. DURING World War II! While fighting in it!
Grinder
And now back to topic, please. smile.gif
CanRay
And now for something completely different.

Serrin Shamandar and his wife, their circle of lives, and the fact that they keep getting kicked about by fate. Opinions?
Stahlseele
life in the 60's?
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (CanRay @ Aug 12 2011, 12:53 PM) *
And now for something completely different.

Serrin Shamandar and his wife, their circle of lives, and the fact that they keep getting kicked about by fate. Opinions?


Who? Which Megacorp are they from? wobble.gif
Stormdrake
What is Lofwyrs Initiate Grade?
Stahlseele
not from any corp, as far as i know.
even if they are probably pretty well liked by fuchi . .
Grinder
QUOTE (Stormdrake @ Aug 12 2011, 10:43 PM) *
What is Lofwyrs Initiate Grade?


QUOTE
Initiate Level: 25+
(Street Legends, pg.135)
Patrick Goodman
QUOTE (Fortinbras @ Aug 9 2011, 11:47 PM) *
What is truly unnerving is that Icarus casually mentions that Deus is out there. This is a direct contradiction from Emergence. The God-like AIs were dead, integrated into the Matrix as a whole. That was the point of bringing about non-God like AIs. Letting them be PCs even.

I've not read this entry in a while, so I might be misremembering, but I think another interpretation of this is that Puck believes that Deus is back and after him, and Icarus casually mentioned that belief. Doesn't have to be true to make a character like that spend his life looking over his shoulder.

I could be wrong here, though, since I'd have to reread the entry to be sure (and frankly, the character has never been one of my favorites, or one that I even care much about, so I haven't looked him over too carefully to begin with). Just something to think about.
Bull
It could have been more clear, but between Slamm-0!'s flippant tone ("Hey Deus, I'll tell you where to find him!") and Snopes comment about how reports that Deus is still around are unsubstantiated both infer that Icarus is talking more about Puck's paranoia and belief that Deus survived and is after him.

That said, if anything could have survived Winternights attack... It would have been Deus. And I can full believe that a lot of Matrix regulars believe he's out there lurking still. Deus is the 2070's equivalent of the boogyman. Ask any Jackpointer to their face if they think he's dead, and they'll say of course. But get a few drinks in them, and they'll tell you about seeing or hearing something on the Matrix that didn't make sense, or admit that late at night when no one else is around, they double check their 'deck before going to bed.

Bull
Nath
QUOTE (Bull @ Aug 13 2011, 12:45 AM) *
That said, if anything could have survived Winternights attack... It would have been Deus.
If only one thing had survived Winternight attack, Richard Villiers would manage to be that one cool.gif
Smirnov
Just got the book and skimmed through it. Why are there so many JackPointers and so few other guys? I wanted to read more on those who shape the world.
But so far the book looks sweet. Other than Aina. What the hell was that!? I read about Artifacts, but still. It's like a book tells you that the killer is the gardener, full stop. And only in the next book you will read about who's gardener he is and who is killed. Blows away all suspence.

My only complaint would be art. The picture for Agent has him with cyberarm when stats say he has no augmentations. And he has a head to big for the body. It looks awkward. But that's minor point. How could they make such awesome art for minor characters so much fuck up, pardon me, the big ones? I mean, after I looked at Villiers, I wanted to tear my eyes out. But what was seen can't be unseen. And in Worlds Without Ends Lowfyr is depicted quite passable for a human - Aina doesn't recognise himat first. If he was looking like in the book, there's no chance she wouldn't know who he is. On the other hand, Hestaby looks even pretty. And I always imagined Nadja to be blonde. Maybe because she's baltic. But that's with almost all named characters - I imagined them to be different from the pictures. Seems you can't guess all the time smile.gif

QUOTE (Critias @ Aug 12 2011, 01:01 AM) *
Thorn writing a gear book would quickly degenerate into "Blah blah blah ultra heavy pistol blah blah blah full auto capable blah blah eight billion round magazine blah blah blah. Big deal! Who needs all that? When I was 23, I killed seven men with a five-shot holdout. I shot five of them in the brain because I know how to fucking aim, threw the gun at the next one, and strangled the third. YOU DAMNED KIDS GET OFF MY LAWN."

I'm stealing this as quote for one character. That's awesome!
CanRay
QUOTE (Critias @ Aug 11 2011, 04:01 PM) *
Thorn writing a gear book would quickly degenerate into "Blah blah blah ultra heavy pistol blah blah blah full auto capable blah blah eight billion round magazine blah blah blah. Big deal! Who needs all that? When I was 23, I killed seven men with a five-shot holdout. I shot five of them in the brain because I know how to fucking aim, threw the gun at the next one, and strangled the third. YOU DAMNED KIDS GET OFF MY LAWN."
I want to write a gear book now.
hermit
QUOTE
Old stuff is fine, but really, we have more than enough of it. Where are the new super-shiny toys the megas are supposed to be throwing our way, huh?!

In War! and Attitude, sad but true.

QUOTE
So one has to be a pacifist to refuse killing people in cold blood during a B&E job? Sounds more like generally accepted (IRL) morality to me. Even among the various varieties of intentional homicide, offing someone to facilitate or cover another crime is usually considered to be particularly bad.

It's another case of incoherent characterisation.

QUOTE
Serrin Shamandar and his wife, their circle of lives, and the fact that they keep getting kicked about by fate. Opinions?

The universe just hates them?



CanRay
QUOTE (CanRay @ Aug 12 2011, 02:53 PM) *
Serrin Shamandar and his wife, their circle of lives, and the fact that they keep getting kicked about by fate. Opinions?
QUOTE (hermit @ Aug 12 2011, 07:51 PM) *
The universe just hates them?
That's a lot of hate, man. They've been kicked about for generations, apparently.

'Course, we get to see what happens when SS goes wrong. SERRIN SMASH!!!
Stahlseele
QUOTE
by Smirnov
QUOTE
by James Meiers
Anyway, no one gave a shit about Aina Dupree until I killed her so, yeah, whatever. Her death was necessary, but hey, it's not like I've written in the past about killing storylines (and characters).


QUOTE
by Neurosis
QUOTE
by James Meiers
An immortal elf. Harlequin's best friend. Dead.
(She was also the Vice Chair turned Acting Chair of the Draco Foundation)


It's going to be hard making him give a shit about that character, since I don't in any way shape or form give a shit about her. I will endeavor to manage.

Normally when the word 'Mary Sue' comes up I get pissed, because I think it gets overused to a pretty disgusting degree by people with a much-too-broad definition of what it means. But Aina Dupree, if it's the character I'm thinking of, is one of the worst EVER.

That's sad to read.
First of all, there are people who care about Aina. Our group for example. For ones, we have Aina as major NPC in the campaign.
Yes, Aina was a strange cookie in an already disfunctional family that immortal elves are. But just because you try to avoid your slightly insane uncle whenever you can doesn't mean you don't love him. Especially not in the way 'since no one cares, she dies. Ha-ha!'
Secondly, Harlequin, Aina's close friend, one time lover, comrade-in-arms and one of the few people on earth (save probably the late Dunkelzahn) who took her seriously, wouldn't care about Aina? Wouldn't care about the death of one of the dozen, at most, human beings in the whole world who are on par with him? He may have had his reservations about her, but he loved her.
And I can understand that her death is part of the yet unpublished story (which must be real big as Aina is [should try using 'was'] second only to Harlequin himself in power), but the attitude towards it baffles me. If she is such unwanted child, why just don't leave her out? The death of the character of the scope Aina was is a big deal, it should serve some purpose other than just to get rid of her and make some big waves. This could as well wake other elves up. As far as I know, immortals have never previously lost one of their own.

To stop grumbling, the book itself is good and pretty. I have some issues with art for the last two chapters and Agent, but other than that art is superb.



http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?top...g65515#msg65515

and this is basically all that i find wrong with the current writing of shadowrun in one single posting . .
Faelan
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Aug 13 2011, 06:33 AM) *
and this is basically all that i find wrong with the current writing of shadowrun in one single posting . .


Indeed, I am particularly perplexed about how Aina Dupree is a Mary Sue. Perhaps if a Mary Sue is a character an author loves to write some seriously sick twisted near snuff flick level porn for, only to let the character narrowly escape a death, so they can live through their fate worse than death again on the morrow.
Smirnov
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Aug 13 2011, 03:33 PM) *
and this is basically all that i find wrong with the current writing of shadowrun in one single posting . .

You mean what happened to Aina or my attitude towards her? Hardly Aina is current writing smile.gif
To be frank, I'm a bit puzzled with Meiers' reaction over there. If I wasn't sure of myself, I would have thought that maybe I spat on his grandmother's grave or something like that. Probably it's me being non-native speaker and says something dumb.
Stahlseele
QUOTE (Smirnov @ Aug 13 2011, 06:07 PM) *
You mean what happened to Aina or my attitude towards her? Hardly Aina is current writing smile.gif
To be frank, I'm a bit puzzled with Meiers' reaction over there. If I wasn't sure of myself, I would have thought that maybe I spat on his grandmother's grave or something like that. Probably it's me being non-native speaker and says something dumb.

No no, your attitude is okay . .
Meiers and Neurosis on the other hand . .
Bull
For whatever it's worth, I get James and Nuerosis' reactions, but don't necessarily share them. Even characters like Harlequin I can have fun with. Characters need to die sometimes, and it should serve the greater story. ANd in this case, I think it will. Harley will have an interesting reaction to Dupree's death, I think.

Keep in mind that anything posted to forums is the authors personal opinion, as a fan. And this opinion doesn't (and shouldn't) carry over into their work. This is why we have a line developer, and this is why things get discussed among the freelance staff behind the scenes.

Bull
CanRay
That's what I always loved about Shadowrun: The Status Quo Is Not The Rule! Things get shaken up all the time! Megas fall! Dragons die! NERPS continues to get newer, better, and with less aftertaste!

People die. It's the nature of being alive, we're all dying. It's just when and how that the question comes into play.

...

That, and how big a splash it'll be in the news. wink.gif
Stahlseele
QUOTE
People die. It's the nature of being alive, we're all dying.

Immortal Elf!
You!
Me!
Him!
Her!

Death is for other people . .
CanRay
So? Old age won't get us.

So many other ways to die. 99 ways to die at least.
Stahlseele
something just occured to me:
Has ANY OTHER immortal elf bought the farm yet? O.o
Or are Dragons the only immortals that die?
CanRay
That's what happens when you sleep thought things like World Wars, instead of living through them.
Sengir
QUOTE (Patrick Goodman @ Aug 12 2011, 09:10 PM) *
I've not read this entry in a while, so I might be misremembering, but I think another interpretation of this is that Puck believes that Deus is back and after him, and Icarus casually mentioned that belief.

Icarus states something to the effect of "since Deus and Pax are still round, he really is in hot water now". And except for two shadowtalkers (one of whom is like "need a hand with your revenge?"), the assembled hacker luminaries don't even seem to notice...because when have mad AIs or Ex Pacis ever raised eyebrows? Since Emergence we know that everybody is totally cool on that issue...

But speaking of Emergence, maybe they're just going to pull the "surprise, nobody knew about that stuff until now"-stunt again...

@hermit
QUOTE (hermit @ Aug 13 2011, 12:51 AM) *
It's another case of incoherent characterisation.

Uhm, where is the inconsistency, again?
Smirnov
QUOTE (Bull @ Aug 13 2011, 08:43 PM) *
For whatever it's worth, I get James and Nuerosis' reactions, but don't necessarily share them. Even characters like Harlequin I can have fun with. Characters need to die sometimes, and it should serve the greater story. And in this case, I think it will. Harley will have an interesting reaction to Dupree's death, I think.

That is absolutely right. That's the point of having a developing setting - things change, and sometimes someone has to die. And I don't object to the fact that Aina died. I'm surprised to the point of shock, but what's happened - happened. Personally I feel bad for Aina. Mostly because of who she was. I never really shared her views, and I always thought that majority of her problems were her own doing. Inability to come to term with her son, for example. But I always shared a great deal of sympathy for her and what she had to go through. And one man once said, that you can laugh at village idiot or despise him, but you never kill him. But these are my feeling, no more, no less. Now I want to get Artifacts Unbound even more, and I hope the reaction to the fact would be appropriate.

QUOTE (Bull @ Aug 13 2011, 08:43 PM) *
Keep in mind that anything posted to forums is the authors personal opinion, as a fan. And this opinion doesn't (and shouldn't) carry over into their work. This is why we have a line developer, and this is why things get discussed among the freelance staff behind the scenes.

And that's what I can't agree with. Firstly, and I know it from personal experience and you know too, a moderator is always a moderator. You can't leave your uniform in the dresser and become a regular Joe Citizen. The same goes for administrators and to much extent for any face. The authors of the books are still authors of the books, even in casual chit-chats, especially if they chat to their readers and more so if they chat about the books they wrote. That's my personal opinion, again, and I can't hope to bring all people to think the same, but I think the professional should keep his cool in any sitution.
Secondly, and thats my opinion again, I believe that you can't really do anything good if you don't love what you're doing. Fictional characters included.

I hope I didn't sound rude or accusing, all that is, I stress again, only my point of view.

QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Aug 13 2011, 09:23 PM) *
something just occured to me:
Has ANY OTHER immortal elf bought the farm yet? O.o
Or are Dragons the only immortals that die?

As far as I know, Aina is the first.
Neurosis
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Aug 13 2011, 12:13 PM) *
No no, your attitude is okay . .
Meiers and Neurosis on the other hand . .


I guess I must be going into politics or something, because I actually just posted a public apology. It's over on the official forums if you'd like to read it, chummer. : )

QUOTE
And that's what I can't agree with. Firstly, and I know it from personal experience and you know too, a moderator is always a moderator. You can't leave your uniform in the dresser and become a regular Joe Citizen. The same goes for administrators and to much extent for any face. The authors of the books are still authors of the books, even in casual chit-chats, especially if they chat to their readers and more so if they chat about the books they wrote. That's my personal opinion, again, and I can't hope to bring all people to think the same, but I think the professional should keep his cool in any sitution.
Secondly, and thats my opinion again, I believe that you can't really do anything good if you don't love what you're doing. Fictional characters included.


If you're right, I'm definitely going to have to post less to avoid any future slip-ups.

I'm still too used to having fan-position leniency. When you're a fan, you're allowed to say "Aina Dupree was a dumb character", and with all the privileges of being a writer, you lose that right. In any case, even if that were my opinion, I hope you can understand it would not detrimentally effect my work. I have too much respect for the SR universe for that.
Stahlseele
QUOTE (Neurosis @ Aug 13 2011, 07:55 PM) *
I guess I must be going into politics or something, because I actually just posted a public apology. It's over on the official forums if you'd like to read it, chummer. : )



If you're right, I'm definitely going to have to post less to avoid any future slip-ups.

I'm still too used to having fan-position leniency.

Yes, i actually read and allready answered . . sorry, but that blatant arrogance and disregard of what can be considered pretty important to the setting/universe sent me flying off my handle (is that correct?)
and yes, i actually do forget about the personal opinion/writer stuff too . . mea culpa x.x
Smirnov
QUOTE (Neurosis @ Aug 13 2011, 09:55 PM) *
If you're right, I'm definitely going to have to post less to avoid any future slip-ups.

I'm still too used to having fan-position leniency.

That's still my opinion, you have the full right to disagree with it! smile.gif
Sengir
QUOTE (Bull @ Aug 13 2011, 05:43 PM) *
Characters need to die sometimes, and it should serve the greater story.

The second half is what is important to me: Important characters should die on occasion, because otherwise the story gets increasingly unbelievable. I finished The Passage a couple of weeks and go, and towards the end was simply annoyed by the constant miraculous escapes and _surprising_ returns of MIAs. Important characters should even fear a completely unspectacular death, in reality most important people don't die in heroic rear guard actions, either.
However, if somebody with the clout of an IE heading an AA corp dies, it should have a major effect on the story. You can't remind players of possible consequences should they go around killing everyone if big figures die and nothing happens.
Neurosis
It was not my intention to imply her death would not have appropriate in-universe consequences (it will).

Honestly, tl;dr it was a stupid, stupid comment made with 0 forethought and nothing'd make me happier than if we could just forget it.
Critias
QUOTE (Sengir @ Aug 13 2011, 01:54 PM) *
However, if somebody with the clout of an IE heading an AA corp dies, it should have a major effect on the story. You can't remind players of possible consequences should they go around killing everyone if big figures die and nothing happens.

It does. Again, a few passages of text just got released in the wrong order, due to some publication issues with a couple products that were supposed to be out before Street Legends, that are coming out after it, now.

Aina's not quietly dying to lung cancer and prompting Caimbeul to stop smoking, just before a The More You Know! logo flies across the screen or something. It's some big, and some badass, and some important shit that's going down, dealing with lots of the big names and magical power players and stuff. She doesn't go quietly in bed, she's right in the thick of some major events.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Critias @ Aug 13 2011, 01:56 PM) *
It does. Again, a few passages of text just got released in the wrong order, due to some publication issues with a couple products that were supposed to be out before Street Legends, that are coming out after it, now.

Aina's not quietly dying to lung cancer and prompting Caimbeul to stop smoking, just before a The More You Know! logo flies across the screen or something. It's some big, and some badass, and some important shit that's going down, dealing with lots of the big names and magical power players and stuff. She doesn't go quietly in bed, she's right in the thick of some major events.



Good to hear. Can't wait... smile.gif
Nath
QUOTE (Neurosis @ Aug 13 2011, 07:55 PM) *
I'm still too used to having fan-position leniency. When you're a fan, you're allowed to say "Aina Dupree was a dumb character", and with all the privileges of being a writer, you lose that right. In any case, even if that were my opinion, I hope you can understand it would not detrimentally effect my work. I have too much respect for the SR universe for that.
Voicing it his okay, but in that case I don't think it helps explaining why it happened.

With my small experience as a freelancer, I'd say authors should stay away from characters and plots they dislike. SR universe is large enough for that. If they try to get rid of them, it will be at the expense of those (players and possibly other authors) who enjoyed it. Of course, sometimes you can't avoid it. If someone really wanted to write on the Draco Foundation and Nadja Daviar, Aina Dupré was standing in the way.

On the other hand, writing about characters simply because you like the result in your average "Mary-Sue" fan fiction. In the end, the only good reason that can be to write something is : "because it makes a good story". If it doesn't, it doesn't worth writing anything in the first place. Unless, of course, the company really needs one hundred pages of anything to release for GenCon wink.gif

I should know, a good part of the work on Shadows of Europe was about deciding what we would simply ignore from the old France sourcebook. And as a gamemaster, I'm still struggling on how to make a great story of Esprit Industries takeover by Aztechnology/Dassault. That was my pet corp, but still, I'll try to seize the opportunity to make it a memorable event (and show what Lofwyr chessgame can be like).
Neurosis
QUOTE
With my small experience as a freelancer, I'd say authors should stay away from characters and plots they dislike.


Not to pass the buck, but I have to date written exactly 0 words about Aina Dupree. I specifically stayed away from all of the Street Legends that I was not a big fan of either; in that case, though, it was more a question of not feeling confident enough in my familiarity with the subject matter to take a crack at them.

But I know this response was probably not fully necessary, as not every comment everyone makes is necessarily directed at me personally. : )
hobgoblin
Yea those old euro books had a certain level of "better then core SR, simply because"...
Stahlseele
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Aug 13 2011, 11:39 PM) *
Yea those old euro books had a certain level of "better then core SR, simply because"...

because we're german.
Fatum
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Aug 14 2011, 01:53 AM) *
because we're german.
'31 is drawing nearer, we'll get even for everything yet.
Stahlseele
QUOTE (Fatum @ Aug 14 2011, 12:13 AM) *
'31 is drawing nearer, we'll get even for everything yet.

no comprende
Fatum
31? First Euro-War? Still nothing?
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