Remember that drones can have up to 3 times their body rating in armor, not 2 like other vehicles.

So even the Otomo can have 18 armor.

[edit]And in theory wear regular metahuman armor as well, but the rules don't actually tell us how vehicle armor and body armor would interact. Which is odd, since the rules specifically tell us that Otomos can use metahuman gear, you'd think they would have gone on to explain how that gear interacts with the vehicle ratings of the anthroform.[/edit]



-k

Irrelevant, as both are hard-capped at 20.

And that robocop is without encumbrance. Psh.

Considering that 22 points of normal armor isn't nearly as good as 20 points of hardened armor, i don't see much of problem.
Also tomino can have 10 points of smart armor witch makes reduces almost all weapons that aren't gauss weapons to AP value of 0.

I always thought that the cyber armor stacks with worn armor. There are two limiting factors for armored cyber limbs: 1 Capacity--if it is to much you'll need obvious arms, which is a detriment in many social situations, 2 is availability, as noted earlier, availibility at charactergen is a rating 2. So in the unlikely event you replaced all your arms and legs, you'd be at a +8 B/I.

I'm not sure it needs to be houseruled as the only time it was abused was by me when I was GMing.

Huh? 18 is below the cap anyways. And this does not account for the 12+ armor from from clothing. Or are you talking about the optional rule of limiting dice pools?

@Yerameyahu: No additional encumbrance. Every vehicle with more armor than its BOD suffers a 20% reduction of its speed and acceleration.

Ähm, no it actually can't be a mage. It is beyond the level of burnout. This means if he used to be a mage, he ain't anymore. And since you can't buy the mage qualitiy after chargen...
(And even the way of the cheese is not open for you)
Well, and astral hazing is more of a HERE I AM sign, than a real form of protection... (If it even works, since BC does nothing to direct spells)

@KarmaInferno

Which is a minor glitch, considering the fact they just gave medium drones the body of well "more than heavy" drones...

It is the same question as: May I hang armored vest around my allready full pimped car...
I would say the body x 3 rule would apply for everything. Does not matter "how" you install it.

The point was that a vehicle caps at 20 armor, regardless of body, whereas the cyborg has no such limitation. 18 being below that cap is irrelevant.



--------------



Vehicles DO NOT have hardened armor. They are immune to stun. In normal play this works out to having the same mechanical benefit, but the two are not comparable in this instance.
As for smart armor, I'd go into that, but I don't want to get into that discussion again.

Dakka Dakka, I was referring to the cybered metahuman, not the anthro-drone. That's exactly the problem: even a giant, purpose-built vehicle suffers under all that armor, while the metahuman has zero penalty (and can wear armor over it). The fact that the Otomo can also wear armor is, I agree with the above, simply inexplicable and vague.

It's true that the cybered metahuman doesn't get *hardened* armor (or ignore stun, whatever); thank god. Doesn't solve the problem, though.

Thank You... I am not in that camp either.

"If the character already possessed a Magic attribute, it is permanently reduced to 1"
So yes in fact it can be a mage.

There's no diffenrence in what effect it has for damage resistance(ie. damage that is less then armor rating, does nothing), so i used the simpler term.

There's a reason i didn't write ALL people .

Technically, he could have been a Mage. ALL Cyber-Zombies possess a Magic of 1 that functions even with the Hazing. Since they have a Magic Rating, Counterspelling and Bonded Foci will still work, though the Bonded Foci will still be degraded by the Haze (so that Force 6 Foci that was mentioned would be Force 2 for all intents and purposes). Counterspelling is untouched, as far as Astral Hazing is concerned, from what I remember. Its only caveat is that you have a Magic Rating, which a CZ does.

I do not even think it is MOST, as you claimed it was. *shrug*

I think it's most. Having just two of you speak up supports it. Not that it matters at all, of course.

Keeping in mind that Dumpshock is a very small minority of Shadowrun players, I have YET to meet anyone that has an issue with this rule outside of the FEW more vocal members of this Forum. A Vocal Minority does not a Majority make.

His essence is droped->Burnout (loosing all qualities)
Afterwards he gets the magic 1. Does not help much.


This pritty much screws you over...

Could be. We disagree.

For real, Irion. It's hard to imagine the munchkin who'd try to use that Magic 1, esp. given they're NPC-only anyway.

The whole how hardened/regular armor work together has yet to be explained in detail . .
Technically, hardened armor means you don't take damage, if you would take stun damge, right?
Or was that changed? I think i remember in SR3 hardened armor negating ALL stun damage . .
So even hardened armor of 1 would make you pretty hard to kill, if you have regular armor high enough to drop any physical to stun damage . .
Because that stun damage gets stopped dead cold by the one point of hardened armor . .
Can't be correct, right?

No, you check the hardened portion first, then regular, then the stun conversion. I agree that I'm not sure this is actually spelled out, but there's really no other way it could reasonably work. Still, that's why it's important to remember that vehicle armor isn't hardened; vehicles simply can't take stun.

Except that he can STILL use his Counterspelling. It is a Skill, and he has a Magic rating of 1. All requirements have been met to use the skill at that point. He may not be able to CAST spells or SUMMON Spirits, but who cares at that point.

This is True. Since CZ's are generally NPC's it is of no consequence to a Player.

It was converted to a Knowledge skill. And even if it weren't, the RAW would be stupid to allow it. As usual.

So does that mean the cyborg DOES have hardened armor or not? Can it take stun damage, since it's not completely a vehicle? Does anyone actually use cyborgs?

Heh... Probably.

A Cyborg cannot take stun, so whether or not the Armor is hardened is almost irrelevant. If the Armor is higher than the DV, the damage is converted to Stun, and therefor does no damage to the Cyborg. Technically, No, it is not hardened.

I have a character with a Cyborg Girlfriend. Did not plan it that way (The Otomo was for me when I conceptualized it), but when it came time to manufacture it it, I had it constructed as a female so the Emerging Metasapient AI (From the ARE Persona programmed Agent, no I did not know that at the time) of my Girlfriend could be physical rather than always in AR/VR. Probably should have thought about that one a bit more. BIG difference between an ARE Agent and a Metasapient AI. Ooops.

The brain in the jar can take stun damage, if you target it directly, but mostly it will just go *squish*. The (possibly anthroform) drone the jar is wired to cannot. The jarhead will suffer biofeedback though, just like any other rigger.

Indeed, forgot to mention that little factoid. Oops.

The cyborg is a rigger inside a vehicle, period. It takes damage exactly as the vehicle-rigger rules specify.

The following quote is exactly why the distinction needs to be made:



Chinane: Vehicles do not have hardened armor. You put a brain in a jar in it, and "the vehicle" gains a stun track.

Well, I haven't played SR4 yet only studied the rules i'm interested in which is mainly adepts and sams. Also in SR3 noone of us played a rigger for the same reason I would not want to play alongside robocop: Anything that posed a threat to rigged vehicles would have killed a regular party multiple times over. And otherwise they were pretty useless, which is why the concept was changed in SR4.

Did they mention anything about crash tests and ramming and passenger damage for brain-in-a-jar?

(Yes, I'm being an ass...)

Great, now i imagine one of those asimo robots walking into a human and the human going splat . .

No, the passenger's body is in the crash.

The brain in the jar gets bounced around the jar, and gets a concussion.

The jar is in a vehicle. vehicles have safety features for passengers. Unless those are disabled, the jar takes no damage.

@snowRaven
Well, thats ugly. I do not know what kind of body a brain has...
On the other hand, if a Troll starts slamming the head of the cyborg into the wall, it is somehow called for...

It's easier to assume that nothing affects the headjar except biofeedback. Either way, stun doesn't makes sense; it's as if it's a *remote* rigger.

Which is why you use an AI instead...

Ugh. I can't decide if AIPCs or FSPCs are the more ill-conceived and destructive PC options. Prolly FSPC.

No need to decide, simply ignore both rulesets equally .

Alas for the trees that had to die...

That's what I do, but it's nice to rank hated things.

Except thats not how it works, if you dont have a magic ratin then you get it at 1 afterwards, but if you have a magic rating it just gets permanently reduced to 1 so there no burning-out.

No it doesn't, the brain has a stun track, but the drone doesn't.

We don't know it doesn't work like that. It only makes sense that the patient is reduced to Mag 0 and Ess 0, then is brought back to Mag 1 by the process; dying is hard on a guy. Either way, the *only* time it would matter is if some munchkin were trying to give a cyberzombie even more powers on top of the incredible stack they already have.

If you want ultimate cheese, have a cyborg with brain-based cultured bioware and the Latent Magician or Latent Technomancer quality.






-k

That does not work either. Latent Awakening/Latent Technomancer clearly state that once your Essence drops below 1, you will never awaken/emerge.

Bah, you're right.

So a Essence 1 Street Sam is about the limit.



-k

You can still be a level 1 initiate with magic 1 with 0 essence(except for being dead normally part) going below that is part of the process of becoming a cyber zombie, rules for witch state that your magic is reduced to 1.

@Mäx

No, you get magic 1 in the end. You first are reduced to 0E and below

It says in Augmentation, pg.157:

"If the character already possessed a Magic attribute, it is permanently reduced to 1."

It goes on to say that if you have Resonance, that is reduced to 0 and all technomantic abilities are lost. It does not say that any magical abilities are lost anywhere. It also says:

"Due to the cybermantic rituals, the cyberzombie does not suffer Magic loss from implantation[...]"

So by RAW, Magic is never reduced to 0 if you were awakened. It is reduced to 1. Thus, since it doesn't say that you lose magical abilities anywhere, you retain any magical abilities that are possible with a magic of 1 - be they spellcasting, adept powers, critter powers, or whatever. Your max initiation is now 1, and you can never increase your magic by any means, as per the text on pg. 157.

Carefully read the actual rules that snowRaven kindly posted, please before you make yourself look like a total fool(even more then you allready have)