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KarmaInferno
Remember that drones can have up to 3 times their body rating in armor, not 2 like other vehicles.

So even the Otomo can have 18 armor.

[edit]And in theory wear regular metahuman armor as well, but the rules don't actually tell us how vehicle armor and body armor would interact. Which is odd, since the rules specifically tell us that Otomos can use metahuman gear, you'd think they would have gone on to explain how that gear interacts with the vehicle ratings of the anthroform.[/edit]



-k
Draco18s
QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ Feb 14 2012, 11:20 AM) *
Remember that drones can have up to 3 times their body rating in armor, not 2 like other vehicles.

So even the Otomo can have 18 armor.


Irrelevant, as both are hard-capped at 20. wink.gif
Yerameyahu
And that robocop is without encumbrance. Psh.
Mäx
QUOTE (Chinane @ Feb 14 2012, 07:17 PM) *
Coincidentally, 20 is also the maximum armor you can put on ANY vehicle.

Seems a bit strange that our robocop should be allowed to exceed that.

Considering that 22 points of normal armor isn't nearly as good as 20 points of hardened armor, i don't see much of problem.
Also tomino can have 10 points of smart armor witch makes reduces almost all weapons that aren't gauss weapons to AP value of 0.
Warlordtheft
I always thought that the cyber armor stacks with worn armor. There are two limiting factors for armored cyber limbs: 1 Capacity--if it is to much you'll need obvious arms, which is a detriment in many social situations, 2 is availability, as noted earlier, availibility at charactergen is a rating 2. So in the unlikely event you replaced all your arms and legs, you'd be at a +8 B/I.

I'm not sure it needs to be houseruled as the only time it was abused was by me when I was GMing.


Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Feb 14 2012, 05:23 PM) *
Irrelevant, as both are hard-capped at 20. wink.gif
Huh? 18 is below the cap anyways. And this does not account for the 12+ armor from from clothing. Or are you talking about the optional rule of limiting dice pools?

@Yerameyahu: No additional encumbrance. Every vehicle with more armor than its BOD suffers a 20% reduction of its speed and acceleration.
Irion
QUOTE (Mäx @ Feb 14 2012, 04:46 PM) *
Umm the Zombie has Astral hazing, very high willpower and can be mage himself with counterspelling 6 and a force 6 shielding focus.

Tomino has 10 body and can be modded to have 20 armor, so thats 30 soak dice(hardly just a third of full conversions soak pool) and doesn't have to care at all about any damage value less then 20P.

Ähm, no it actually can't be a mage. It is beyond the level of burnout. This means if he used to be a mage, he ain't anymore. And since you can't buy the mage qualitiy after chargen...
(And even the way of the cheese is not open for you)
Well, and astral hazing is more of a HERE I AM sign, than a real form of protection... (If it even works, since BC does nothing to direct spells)

@KarmaInferno
QUOTE
And in theory wear regular metahuman armor as well, but the rules don't actually tell us how vehicle armor and body armor would interact. Which is odd, since the rules specifically tell us that Otomos can use metahuman gear, you'd think they would have gone on to explain how that gear interacts with the vehicle ratings of the anthroform.

Which is a minor glitch, considering the fact they just gave medium drones the body of well "more than heavy" drones...

It is the same question as: May I hang armored vest around my allready full pimped car...
I would say the body x 3 rule would apply for everything. Does not matter "how" you install it.
Draco18s
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Feb 14 2012, 11:35 AM) *
Huh? 18 is below the cap anyways. And this does not account for the 12+ armor from from clothing. Or are you talking about the optional rule of limiting dice pools?


The point was that a vehicle caps at 20 armor, regardless of body, whereas the cyborg has no such limitation. 18 being below that cap is irrelevant.

QUOTE (Chinane @ Feb 14 2012, 11:17 AM) *
Coincidentally, 20 is also the maximum armor you can put on ANY vehicle.

Seems a bit strange that our robocop should be allowed to exceed that.


--------------

QUOTE (Mäx @ Feb 14 2012, 11:32 AM) *
Considering that 22 points of normal armor isn't nearly as good as 20 points of hardened armor, i don't see much of problem.
Also tomino can have 10 points of smart armor witch makes reduces almost all weapons that aren't gauss weapons to AP value of 0.


Vehicles DO NOT have hardened armor. They are immune to stun. In normal play this works out to having the same mechanical benefit, but the two are not comparable in this instance.
As for smart armor, I'd go into that, but I don't want to get into that discussion again.
Yerameyahu
Dakka Dakka, I was referring to the cybered metahuman, not the anthro-drone. smile.gif That's exactly the problem: even a giant, purpose-built vehicle suffers under all that armor, while the metahuman has zero penalty (and can wear armor over it). The fact that the Otomo can also wear armor is, I agree with the above, simply inexplicable and vague.

It's true that the cybered metahuman doesn't get *hardened* armor (or ignore stun, whatever); thank god. Doesn't solve the problem, though.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Medicineman @ Feb 14 2012, 05:07 AM) *
I don't think that most People agree with that.

Hough!
Medicineman


Thank You... I am not in that camp either.
Mäx
QUOTE (Irion @ Feb 14 2012, 07:39 PM) *
Ähm, no it actually can't be a mage. It is beyond the level of burnout. This means if he used to be a mage, he ain't anymore.

"If the character already possessed a Magic attribute, it is permanently reduced to 1"
So yes in fact it can be a mage.
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Feb 14 2012, 07:39 PM) *
Vehicles DO NOT have hardened armor. They are immune to stun. In normal play this works out to having the same mechanical benefit, but the two are not comparable in this instance.

There's no diffenrence in what effect it has for damage resistance(ie. damage that is less then armor rating, does nothing), so i used the simpler term.
Chinane
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Feb 14 2012, 08:09 PM) *
Thank You... I am not in that camp either.


There's a reason i didn't write ALL people smile.gif.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Irion @ Feb 14 2012, 09:39 AM) *
Ähm, no it actually can't be a mage. It is beyond the level of burnout. This means if he used to be a mage, he ain't anymore. And since you can't buy the mage qualitiy after chargen...
(And even the way of the cheese is not open for you)
Well, and astral hazing is more of a HERE I AM sign, than a real form of protection... (If it even works, since BC does nothing to direct spells)


Technically, he could have been a Mage. ALL Cyber-Zombies possess a Magic of 1 that functions even with the Hazing. Since they have a Magic Rating, Counterspelling and Bonded Foci will still work, though the Bonded Foci will still be degraded by the Haze (so that Force 6 Foci that was mentioned would be Force 2 for all intents and purposes). Counterspelling is untouched, as far as Astral Hazing is concerned, from what I remember. Its only caveat is that you have a Magic Rating, which a CZ does. smile.gif
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Chinane @ Feb 14 2012, 12:21 PM) *
There's a reason i didn't write ALL people smile.gif.


I do not even think it is MOST, as you claimed it was. *shrug*
Yerameyahu
I think it's most. Having just two of you speak up supports it. wink.gif Not that it matters at all, of course.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Feb 14 2012, 12:25 PM) *
I think it's most. Having just two of you speak up supports it. wink.gif Not that it matters at all, of course.


Keeping in mind that Dumpshock is a very small minority of Shadowrun players, I have YET to meet anyone that has an issue with this rule outside of the FEW more vocal members of this Forum. A Vocal Minority does not a Majority make. smile.gif
Irion
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Feb 14 2012, 08:21 PM) *
Technically, he could have been a Mage. ALL Cyber-Zombies possess a Magic of 1 that functions even with the Hazing. Since they have a Magic Rating, Counterspelling and Bonded Foci will still work, though the Bonded Foci will still be degraded by the Haze (so that Force 6 Foci that was mentioned would be Force 2 for all intents and purposes). Counterspelling is untouched, as far as Astral Hazing is concerned, from what I remember. Its only caveat is that you have a Magic Rating, which a CZ does. smile.gif

His essence is droped->Burnout (loosing all qualities)
Afterwards he gets the magic 1. Does not help much.

QUOTE ("Corebook")
If a character’s Magic is ever reduced to 0, she can no longer
perform any kind of magic. The magician has “burned out,”
losing all magical ability and becoming a mundane forever. She
retains all magical skills and knowledge, but lacks the ability to
use them. Active skills become Knowledge skills.

This pritty much screws you over...
Yerameyahu
Could be. We disagree. smile.gif

For real, Irion. It's hard to imagine the munchkin who'd try to use that Magic 1, esp. given they're NPC-only anyway.
Stahlseele
QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ Feb 14 2012, 05:20 PM) *
Remember that drones can have up to 3 times their body rating in armor, not 2 like other vehicles.

So even the Otomo can have 18 armor.

[edit]And in theory wear regular metahuman armor as well, but the rules don't actually tell us how vehicle armor and body armor would interact. Which is odd, since the rules specifically tell us that Otomos can use metahuman gear, you'd think they would have gone on to explain how that gear interacts with the vehicle ratings of the anthroform.[/edit]



-k

The whole how hardened/regular armor work together has yet to be explained in detail . .
Technically, hardened armor means you don't take damage, if you would take stun damge, right?
Or was that changed? I think i remember in SR3 hardened armor negating ALL stun damage . .
So even hardened armor of 1 would make you pretty hard to kill, if you have regular armor high enough to drop any physical to stun damage . .
Because that stun damage gets stopped dead cold by the one point of hardened armor . .
Can't be correct, right?
Yerameyahu
No, you check the hardened portion first, then regular, then the stun conversion. I agree that I'm not sure this is actually spelled out, but there's really no other way it could reasonably work. smile.gif Still, that's why it's important to remember that vehicle armor isn't hardened; vehicles simply can't take stun.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Irion @ Feb 14 2012, 12:43 PM) *
His essence is droped->Burnout (loosing all qualities)
Afterwards he gets the magic 1. Does not help much.


This pritty much screws you over...


Except that he can STILL use his Counterspelling. It is a Skill, and he has a Magic rating of 1. All requirements have been met to use the skill at that point. He may not be able to CAST spells or SUMMON Spirits, but who cares at that point. smile.gif
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Feb 14 2012, 12:46 PM) *
Could be. We disagree. smile.gif

For real, Irion. It's hard to imagine the munchkin who'd try to use that Magic 1, esp. given they're NPC-only anyway.


This is True. Since CZ's are generally NPC's it is of no consequence to a Player. smile.gif
Yerameyahu
It was converted to a Knowledge skill. And even if it weren't, the RAW would be stupid to allow it. smile.gif As usual.
Chinane
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Feb 14 2012, 09:39 PM) *
No, you check the hardened portion first, then regular, then the stun conversion. I agree that I'm not sure this is actually spelled out, but there's really no other way it could reasonably work. smile.gif Still, that's why it's important to remember that vehicle armor isn't hardened; vehicles simply can't take stun.


So does that mean the cyborg DOES have hardened armor or not? Can it take stun damage, since it's not completely a vehicle? Does anyone actually use cyborgs? wink.gif
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Feb 14 2012, 01:55 PM) *
It was converted to a Knowledge skill. And even if it weren't, the RAW would be stupid to allow it. smile.gif As usual.


Heh... Probably. smile.gif
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Chinane @ Feb 14 2012, 01:56 PM) *
So does that mean the cyborg DOES have hardened armor or not? Can it take stun damage, since it's not completely a vehicle? Does anyone actually use cyborgs? wink.gif


A Cyborg cannot take stun, so whether or not the Armor is hardened is almost irrelevant. If the Armor is higher than the DV, the damage is converted to Stun, and therefor does no damage to the Cyborg. Technically, No, it is not hardened.

I have a character with a Cyborg Girlfriend. Did not plan it that way (The Otomo was for me when I conceptualized it), but when it came time to manufacture it it, I had it constructed as a female so the Emerging Metasapient AI (From the ARE Persona programmed Agent, no I did not know that at the time) of my Girlfriend could be physical rather than always in AR/VR. Probably should have thought about that one a bit more. BIG difference between an ARE Agent and a Metasapient AI. Ooops. smile.gif
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (Chinane @ Feb 14 2012, 09:56 PM) *
So does that mean the cyborg DOES have hardened armor or not? Can it take stun damage, since it's not completely a vehicle? Does anyone actually use cyborgs? wink.gif
The brain in the jar can take stun damage, if you target it directly, but mostly it will just go *squish*. The (possibly anthroform) drone the jar is wired to cannot. The jarhead will suffer biofeedback though, just like any other rigger.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Feb 14 2012, 02:04 PM) *
The brain in the jar can take stun damage, if you target it directly, but mostly it will just go *squish*. The (possibly anthroform) drone the jar is wired to cannot. The jarhead will suffer biofeedback though, just like any other rigger.


Indeed, forgot to mention that little factoid. Oops. smile.gif
Yerameyahu
The cyborg is a rigger inside a vehicle, period. It takes damage exactly as the vehicle-rigger rules specify.
Draco18s
QUOTE (Mäx @ Feb 14 2012, 02:19 PM) *
There's no diffenrence in what effect it has for damage resistance(ie. damage that is less then armor rating, does nothing), so i used the simpler term.


The following quote is exactly why the distinction needs to be made:

QUOTE (Chinane @ Feb 14 2012, 03:56 PM) *
So does that mean the cyborg DOES have hardened armor or not? Can it take stun damage, since it's not completely a vehicle? Does anyone actually use cyborgs? wink.gif


Chinane: Vehicles do not have hardened armor. You put a brain in a jar in it, and "the vehicle" gains a stun track.
Chinane
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Feb 14 2012, 11:12 PM) *
The following quote is exactly why the distinction needs to be made:



Chinane: Vehicles do not have hardened armor. You put a brain in a jar in it, and "the vehicle" gains a stun track.


Well, I haven't played SR4 yet only studied the rules i'm interested in which is mainly adepts and sams. Also in SR3 noone of us played a rigger for the same reason I would not want to play alongside robocop: Anything that posed a threat to rigged vehicles would have killed a regular party multiple times over. And otherwise they were pretty useless, which is why the concept was changed in SR4.
snowRaven
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Feb 14 2012, 10:05 PM) *
The cyborg is a rigger inside a vehicle, period. It takes damage exactly as the vehicle-rigger rules specify.


Did they mention anything about crash tests and ramming and passenger damage for brain-in-a-jar? grinbig.gif

(Yes, I'm being an ass...)
Stahlseele
Great, now i imagine one of those asimo robots walking into a human and the human going splat . .
CanRay
QUOTE (snowRaven @ Feb 14 2012, 06:39 PM) *
Did they mention anything about crash tests and ramming and passenger damage for brain-in-a-jar? grinbig.gif

(Yes, I'm being an ass...)
No, the passenger's body is in the crash. nyahnyah.gif

The brain in the jar gets bounced around the jar, and gets a concussion. wink.gif
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (CanRay @ Feb 14 2012, 11:41 PM) *
The brain in the jar gets bounced around the jar, and gets a concussion. wink.gif
The jar is in a vehicle. vehicles have safety features for passengers. Unless those are disabled, the jar takes no damage.
Irion
@snowRaven
Well, thats ugly. I do not know what kind of body a brain has...
On the other hand, if a Troll starts slamming the head of the cyborg into the wall, it is somehow called for...
Yerameyahu
It's easier to assume that nothing affects the headjar except biofeedback. Either way, stun doesn't makes sense; it's as if it's a *remote* rigger.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Feb 14 2012, 03:12 PM) *
The following quote is exactly why the distinction needs to be made:

Chinane: Vehicles do not have hardened armor. You put a brain in a jar in it, and "the vehicle" gains a stun track.



Which is why you use an AI instead... smile.gif
Yerameyahu
Ugh. I can't decide if AIPCs or FSPCs are the more ill-conceived and destructive PC options. Prolly FSPC.
Chinane
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Feb 15 2012, 12:15 AM) *
Ugh. I can't decide if AIPCs or FSPCs are the more ill-conceived and destructive PC options. Prolly FSPC.


No need to decide, simply ignore both rulesets equally smile.gif.

Alas for the trees that had to die...
Yerameyahu
That's what I do, but it's nice to rank hated things. biggrin.gif
Mäx
QUOTE (Irion @ Feb 14 2012, 10:43 PM) *
His essence is droped->Burnout (loosing all qualities)
Afterwards he gets the magic 1. Does not help much.

Except thats not how it works, if you dont have a magic ratin then you get it at 1 afterwards, but if you have a magic rating it just gets permanently reduced to 1 so there no burning-out.
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Feb 15 2012, 01:12 AM) *
Chinane: Vehicles do not have hardened armor. You put a brain in a jar in it, and "the vehicle" gains a stun track.

No it doesn't, the brain has a stun track, but the drone doesn't.
Yerameyahu
We don't know it doesn't work like that. It only makes sense that the patient is reduced to Mag 0 and Ess 0, then is brought back to Mag 1 by the process; dying is hard on a guy. Either way, the *only* time it would matter is if some munchkin were trying to give a cyberzombie even more powers on top of the incredible stack they already have.
KarmaInferno
If you want ultimate cheese, have a cyborg with brain-based cultured bioware and the Latent Magician or Latent Technomancer quality.

smile.gif




-k
Dakka Dakka
That does not work either. Latent Awakening/Latent Technomancer clearly state that once your Essence drops below 1, you will never awaken/emerge.
KarmaInferno
Bah, you're right.

So a Essence 1 Street Sam is about the limit.



-k
Mäx
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Feb 15 2012, 07:55 AM) *
We don't know it doesn't work like that. It only makes sense that the patient is reduced to Mag 0 and Ess 0, then is brought back to Mag 1 by the process; dying is hard on a guy. Either way, the *only* time it would matter is if some munchkin were trying to give a cyberzombie even more powers on top of the incredible stack they already have.

You can still be a level 1 initiate with magic 1 with 0 essence(except for being dead normally part) going below that is part of the process of becoming a cyber zombie, rules for witch state that your magic is reduced to 1.
Irion
@Mäx
QUOTE
rules for witch state that your magic is reduced to 1.

No, you get magic 1 in the end. You first are reduced to 0E and below
snowRaven
It says in Augmentation, pg.157:

"If the character already possessed a Magic attribute, it is permanently reduced to 1."

It goes on to say that if you have Resonance, that is reduced to 0 and all technomantic abilities are lost. It does not say that any magical abilities are lost anywhere. It also says:

"Due to the cybermantic rituals, the cyberzombie does not suffer Magic loss from implantation[...]"

So by RAW, Magic is never reduced to 0 if you were awakened. It is reduced to 1. Thus, since it doesn't say that you lose magical abilities anywhere, you retain any magical abilities that are possible with a magic of 1 - be they spellcasting, adept powers, critter powers, or whatever. Your max initiation is now 1, and you can never increase your magic by any means, as per the text on pg. 157.
Mäx
QUOTE (Irion @ Feb 15 2012, 03:08 PM) *
@Mäx

No, you get magic 1 in the end. You first are reduced to 0E and below

Carefully read the actual rules that snowRaven kindly posted, please before you make yourself look like a total fool(even more then you allready have)
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