Did not say it was wrong. I said it was unreasonable given the game world. If you are gonna villify me, please do it right. I have said many times that if you are having fun, then no worries. But, given the way the world works, earning more money from non-shadowrunning sources outside of the qualities to support it is unreasonable.

What part of my view on it being unreasonable do you not get as my opinion. I was asked for my opinion and I gave it. I am NOT going to preface everything with IMO. You can do that if you want to do so, But I will not.

Actually I don't Max. What I have a hard time agreeing with is the notion that the system can be gamed and still maintain enjoyment for everyone. The world assumes certain things. If you game the system to circumvent those particular things, then you are no longer playing that particular game. You have gone outside of its intended scope. At that point we are no longer talking about the same thing.

There is a difference, you know.

And the In-world answer to the OP question is exactly as much as the qualities allow you to make. Anything outside of that is unsupported and outside the scope of the game.

If it wasn't supported, then, IMO (see how easy it is?), there would be no way that any skill would be able to create anything under the rules which could then be sold for money--which means no Chemistry, no Enchanting, so forth and so on.

And you would be wrong here. It is unsupported because there are absolutely NO RULES for a Shadowrunner selling things created by Skills (at best you have some vague idea that you get 30% of base cost, modified from there). The skills exist so that you may craft things for your own use, not turn the skill into a full time business.

The ONLY RULE for earning Money as a Shadowrunner is the Day Job Quality (which can use whatever skill you want it to use). And ONCE AGAIN, I have absolutely no issues if you want to use that to make "sideline" money. It is when you start arguing that the Day Job Quality is Stupid because a rational approach to the system should allow you to make Millions of Nuyen per Year with little to no effort. The Game does not allow that. That is not an opinion. It is a Fact. For you to do so, you have to create rules/circumstances that are not there, and then bend the existing rules to allow it. What the Game DOES allow is the Day Job Quality in conjunction with a few others. As someone pointed out above, you can have a Covered High Lifestyle and still make about 50,000 Nuyen/Month by using the Qualities (so, 600,000 Nuyen/Year Income). I am not sure why that is just not enough for you. *shrug*

There are then no rules for selling anything at all. The same guidelines that cover fencing the Ares Alpha you looted off a ganger also cover selling a crate of drugs you intercepted down by the harbor, and by inference thus also stuff you made yourself.

And I disagree with that. *shrug*
You should get to fence stuff, becuase that is in the control of the GM as to what is fenceable and what is not (it is all under the Direct Control of the GM). You really cannot use the same argument about stuff the PC's make, since the GM has no real direct control over what is made. Other than Fiat.

I disagree quite heavily with the attitude of "the game exists only at the GM's mercy" that your post seems to suggest.

Completely agree with Halinn, and yes it is merely your opinion and not Irrefutable Fact of the Multiverse. If you don't like it, fine, but quit posing as though you are the King Authority of All Things Shadowrun.

The funny thing is that the Game DOES exist solely at the whim of the GM who runs it.
As for the other, that would be Toturi or Muspelheimr... Both have an extraordinary grasp of the rules.

Thanks Halinn! And yeah, I see that the use of "reasonable" in my first post could be misread. To be clear (as the boss of this thread ) I meant "is 10k a good estimate?".

I think I may actually turn this in to a quality.

Why would you need to do that? There are already Qualities that do just that.

Exercises like this are good for benchmarking. You get a good grasp for the team's economics and generally what will interest their characters.

If a mage can make 200K a month talislegging/doing alchemy then they will not jump at the chance to take a 5K job that doesn't advance their personal goals.

It also shows the GM how pay should be scaling as the characters improve. If after 5 years of game time a hacker advances from Computer 4 to Computer 12 then the baseline for runs should be increasing too. Benchmarking through something like hacking lifestyle allows you to track the economy of your game better.

This, in mile-high flaming letters.






Says who (other than yourself) ...?

If I were GMing a campaign right now and my players said "We want to make tons of drugs, and sell them. We should have the skills to come up with enough to sell it for a million nuyen, even if we only get 20% of the street price" ... you know what, the answer I'd give them wouldn't be "no, that's not shadowrunning so you can't do it".

The answer I'd give them would be "have you watched much Breaking Bad? Have you got a good grip on the ramifications, complications, and consequences of that action would be? Yes? Fine, buckle up, 'cause it's gonna be a heck of a ride."

And then I'd get down to brass tacks, and write the whole thing up as a scenario. Or more likely, a whole string of scenarios. Something I can intersperse into their typical shadowruns ... and perhaps have the whole thing slowly escalate to the point where it occupies the majority of their time and attention.

There's story that can be written around that one, simple idea: "we want to go into business for ourselves". Whether that business is drugs, or guns, or modified commlinks, or BTLs, or whatever. BEcause it's not just about rolling some dice, counting successes, and adding money to the character sheet. Oh, no. Organised crime is going to get very interested in the new player trying to muscle in on their truf without cutting them in for a proper share. The police are of course going to get interested in a new up-and-coming player in the underworld. Local gangs are going to either see the players as a new resource, or a new rival, and react accordingly. Depending on the product, one or another major corporation may develop an interest (e.g., selling knock-offs of the Ares Predator IV would cut into Ares' local sales rate, and at least one management-level suit is going to want to know why, and maybe plug the leak in their bottom line). Various social factions - O.R.C., Humanis, etc - might even take an interest.

Eventually, a Dragon might even decide to involve his or her self in affairs.

...

And that, all of it? IS SHADOWRUN.

Nowhere is there a rule that there MUST be a Mr. Johnson involved.

Joe Doctor:
- SINner
- Maxed-out Logic
- Maxed-out medicine and cybertechnology skills
- Fame (as a cyber-surgeon)
- Good charisma/people skills

First adventure:
GM: "You get a call from your fixer"
Joe Doctor: "I don't have a fixer"
GM: "You get a call from one of your friends, there's someone who might have a job for you. You're to meet him at the Penumbra at 10 PM"
Joe Doctor: "For which clinic?"
GM: "It's for a Shadowrun."
Joe Doctor: "I'm a doctor, not a runner. I politely refuse and send my resume to all clinics in the area. I'm the best possible cyber-surgeon, I'm famous for this and there's absolutely nothing wrong with my personality/history/track record. I'll probably get a nice job."

Sure, the GM might be able to turn this into a nice game of "ER:2070 The RPG". But there's no way you can say that Joe Doctor will be Shadowrunning.

No but his identical twin Moe who is a adrenaliune junkie does go to shadowruns(even though he has a nice job ata hospital) because he likes it.

Full stop. What you have posted is a straw man. Please stop being disingenuous. Thank you.

A better scenario would be "My runner, the team medic, has a Medical Shop so I can fix the others up, maintain their implants, and even do some upgrades for them. But noone on the team needs my services this month, so I wonder if my fixer contact can maybe line me up a cybernetics-installation job or two, for some extra cash?"

See, still a "street doc" type. Still living in the shadows. Still considers himself "a runner".

Still trying to make some extra money on the side, using his skills and gear, without it [b]having[/i] to be a full shadowrun job/heist/etc.

I took an extreme example to explain what some of us mean: when a character is a chemist/enchanter/doctor/accountant and his adventures revolve around this, the character is no longer a Shadowrunner and he's no longer running the Shadows. Even if he's a legal character created by the rules and following the game rules.

And I find it hard to believe that a character who lives a nice life as a chemist/enchanter/doctor/accountant will still risk his life running the shadows (unless he's a bit insane).

I thought that was a requirement for a shadowrunner?

No, but it helps.

And now you know how well equipped 6th world drug dealers/organized crime can be. Take that 120K put half of it back into your thugs each month (so 60K). If you have 20 guys (a small operation) in your employ each is making 3000K a month. 1,000 goes to rent (low lifestyle) and the 2000 is put into a pool that goes towards upgrades and guns. 10K goes to the chemist, and the remaining 50K goes towards your lifestyle. Now if you hire more chemists you make more profit, but you might flood the market as well--so it might not be each chemist bringing in 50K for yourself.

The book contains rules for fencing goods. Fencing is a very specific act involving stolen goods. The book contains no rules for selling non-stolen goods. It's as simple as that. And fences most likely wouldn't touch drugs because first of all they deal with stolen goods and probably don't want to draw the illwill of having stolen drugs and secondly they probably don't want to step on the feet of the drug dealers.

The book rarely contains the costs for manufacturing many items (chemistry is the general exception) and it also contains no rules for selling things on the black market. It has rules that would roughly cover the final sell price that you could fetch for it but it doesn't cover any of the groundwork effort between manufacturing and selling.

Simple, yes. Accurate .... not so much.

Le's say my character, a SINner, buys a Mercury Comet during character creation. It's bought completely legally.

Two years later, in-game, my character decides it' time to upgrade to a Mercury Oort. He thus wishes to sell his Comet.

...

Yep: non-stolen goods can be sold using the SR rules.

Strictly speaking. No they cannot. The wording of the book says that characters may sell loot they acquired on a Shadowrun. Any such loot acquired during a Shadowrun would be, by necessity, stolen. The items were owned by someone else and the runner stole it from the original owner. Whether or not the original owner is in a state (read living or dead) to continue using the object is immaterial.

There are exceptions, but these would amount to things that you find in a dumpster in a back alley or some similar situation.

/facepalm

Rules lawyering at it's worst.

Actually, the at its worst part would be me pointing out that the word loot generally applies to spoils taken from another party so even trash items found would not quality as loot obtained during a shadowrun and that all loot must be stolen and that means that the only rules that apply for selling things exclusively applies to items stolen (loot) while performing a shadowrun.

However, that's entirely the point. The rules, as written, are designed so runners can sell off loot they acquired during shadowruns. Any other object selling is outside the scope for which the rules are written and intended.

Exactly!

And the genesis of this thread was "lots of runners say they run for the nuyen. But they have skills like a normal person. What kind of money could they make like a normal person, either in their down time, or as an alternative? Because if you run for the money, you (PC or player) need to know what they could be making."

"Hey, Phil."
"Hey Dixie. You look sad, what's wrong?"
"You remember Steve, my friend at the clinic? His dad died, and left him 10 really nice Ares Predators. Really tricked out. He said if I could find buyers, he'd let me keep half of what I made, since I 'know people'."
"Bummer."
"Yeah, I know. I could use the money. Hey wait! Maybe you could go steal them from him, the *you* could sell them!"
"Great idea!"

QFT

YOU STOP RIGHT THERE! NOWHERE in the book does it say anything about shipping costs, licensing, taxes, marketing, employees, offices, overhead, inventory, or holding costs! These things are presumably free.

Furthermore, whatever you make must be in great demand, and your customers will buy 100% of anything you manufacture, and they will gladly come to pick it up during your spare time, and they will pay the amount of money it specifies in the rulebook no matter how much of it you sell or how easy it is for other people to make and sell the same thing.

...Man, is that what I sound like when people accuse me of that?

That's why you're selling it to a fencer. They're handling the distribution, and that's why they're taking 70%

As for the supply and demand? You're making what, 200 pounds of drug X every week?

Given a wide enough distribution market...yes, yes they will buy 100% of your product. If there's anything I've learned from Breaking Bad it's that the recreational drug market is fucking huge. 200 pounds a week is a lot of product, but when you're distributing to all of the SE United States...it's hardly enough.

That's assuming they're willing to take the risk of stepping on the drug cartel's toes.

Sell it to the cartel, then. Seriously.

Who would give you worse pricing than a fence (since they're going to buy your stuff for as little as possible to maximize their profit on your stuff) or they're going to try to whack you for being a threat.

I also have serious doubts to whether or not a fence will accept F rated items. Since fences traditionally take stolen goods and resell them as "legal" goods which is impossible to do with F availability items.

"I can make a better product than you currently offer. I'm offering you my services, as I don't want to encroach on your territory. I've got the equipment and access to raw materials already. All I ask is 30% of the sale price."

Sure, 30% might be high, but given the rules on the fact that raw materials are 10% (which is inflated) it's not too bad.
(And I should know, I've got a game that I'll be getting one sixth of 10%--there are six in the group that made it--and I know that the game can be produced for as little as $4, if not even less--one guy told me that it should be possible to do for $1.50--and it will retail for near $50. And we're only getting 10% because we're going with a higher service level. The "basic package" would be 75% of the shelf price, but we'd have to pay flat fees for convention coverage, advertising, etc. etc. And rules try to make it out to say that the guy who's our printer is buying his paper for 10% of the final cost)

"I'll tell you what. Give use your current stock and the name of the person supplying you with the materials so we can make sure he isn't selling to anyone but us and we'll let you walk out of here alive."

That would be a fairly normal response given the economic concepts of cartels. Basically, you told them you can produce better than what they do, you already have the equipment, and there's a raw material supplier out there that isn't under their thumb or some other drug cartel's thumb that needs to be dealt with because it risks the whole drug market. They're not going to want to buy your stuff because it raises the quantity of the good on the market which decreases the scarcity that causes illegal drugs to be expensive in the first place and there's no point to have you make the stuff for them because they can already make it at a lower cost for themselves. Beyond even that, they may not even bother to talk to you because it's an illegal good and you might be part of a sting operation so there's no point for them to take risk by talking with some small fry like yourself.

You're probable best outcome is you get paid for your materials and sent on your way. The worst outcome is that you end up dead.

And you give it to them.

Then you tell your Shadowrunning team that the cartel screwed you, and you make them pay.

Fucking with Runners is a bad idea. It makes it personal, especially when they offered you a good deal.



And no, Cartels are not outside the reach of Runners, especially Runners who have contacts.

The Cartel fucked with you? Too bad for them you know that the Ancients or Spikes would like in on a deal like yours; and they'd want in bad enough to pick a fight with the Cartel and run them out of town.

Or the Mob, the Yaks, the Seoupla rings...


Yeah. That's a stupid move on the cartel's part.

"No, I'll tell YOU what. Bob, pull back that curtain. Yeah, see all the explosives? Whole room's wired with 'em. And the biomonitors Bob and I are wearing, are the detonators. We so much as come down with the FLU, boom, no more building. So if I die, we ALL die, together.

Now, are we done measuring penises and insulting each other? I really hope so, because I came here with a proposition that would be profitable and fair for BOTH of us, and all you can do is insult me, try to rob me, and threaten my life? Fuck you. I hear you have competition, maybe I should go make THEM the same offer. Because if you still want to do business with me, the price just wentup to forty percent for the first ten batches. I do not let people threaten me, and get away with it.

So, the ball's in your court. Do we deal, do we part ways alive, or do we all go BOOM together?

Oh, and by the way, <name of mafia/yak/etc LT or boss> is going to be pissed that she arranged this face to face between us, and then you tried to screw me. So you might also want to be thinking of how to apologise to HER."


Seriously. We're talking about shadowrunners here, not middle-school kids trying to bully lunch money out of each other. Shadowrunners with the equipment and skills needed to, on a not-irregular basis, take down organised crime bosses. Shadowrunners who more often than not have contacts with a variety of syndicates, often at very high levels.

And a shadowrunner who just told you he has excellent chemistry skills, and a fully-stocked-and-equipped chemistry lab (who could as easily cook up half a metric ton of C12 as produce a large batch of X or Y party drug). And he's come to you politely, seeking to avoid competition and bad blood yet still make money both for him AND YOU.

What kind of idiot tries to hose the place down with testosterone, and shake the runners down, in the face of all that?!?

Ah ah, Shadowrunners talking back to criminal syndicates.

Yet another proof that criminal syndicates are not portrayed correctly in Shadowrun canon.

A crime syndicate would turn down a highly trained chemist with his own lab?
Bullshit.

Have to agree with that. Anyone with half a brain is going to see that adding potential competition to your own roster is a far better option than just threatening it into submission... particularly when its a runner-grade individual.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5wpigdBfK8

Criminal Syndicates can have Runners killed, it's true.


But there is nothing more unbelievably dangerous and destructive than a few (or even a single) highly-trained, well-equipped individual(s) with a death wish out for blood.


Enough crime bosses, syndicate bosses, mafia dons, Yakuza oyabuns, Triad Mountain Masters, and whatever the fuck the rest call their leaders, have wound up dead in their own homes (not to mention elsewhere) over the course of the Sixth World, for the Syndicates to know that they are not beyond the reach of a Runner's vengeance (or simply paid wetwork) and you do not want to make things personal with Runners if it can be avoided.

So really, the most hostile you want to be is a polite "We are not inclined to acquiesce to your request," with implied threats of violence if you try to go and freelance your shit.



The Vory being the notable exception. They'd rather duke it out blood-for-blood than let Runners get one over on them. Those guys do not do business well.

Assuming that you're supplying every kind of drug available (from arsenal and core, at least), you're turning in an average profit of 1702 per batch, or 51k per chemist per month (I'm assuming that they are skilled enough to make one batch each day). Removing the outliers of K-10 and Oxygenated Fluorocarbons (900 and 2000 per dose, respectively), it's 678.4 per batch, or 20352 per chemist per month. Get them each a middle lifestyle, and pocket the remaining 15k per chemist. That's at the 30% fence value, and you buying materials at cost, so assume that the remaining 70% goes into thugs, distribution and the like.

That's a TV show.

Huge distribution networks are very costly to build and maintain, and illegal ones cost lives. Look at the drug cartels fighting in Mexico today. The game doesn't say one thing about what it takes to build one. You would need more relevant contacts of rating 6 influence at least.

If you want to be a kingpin, you will also have the downsides of being a kingpin.

And all these numbers from the rules that people are throwing around, they are garbage, because they came out of a game book.

See this is PC's syndrome talking. What makes you think the syndicates don't have guys like that on the payroll, or if Shadowrunners are the elite of the world not just hire some of them.

They can have them on their payroll, the players might not survive, but they will weaken the criminal organization to the point where it will not survive.

Have you ever played an SR game where the players said 'fuck it' and started a full on war against an organization? Whether criminal, corporate, religious, governmental, etc. No criminal organization has the wherewithal to survive the experience.

Those runners are hacking the computer systems of every single individual in your organization and passing the information along to whomever it would help hurt you the most (rival organizations, the police, the media, your wife, etc.).

Those runners are loosing hundreds of spirits on your forces to assassinate them. Those runners are using the smallest of ritual links to turn your own people into suicide bombers.

Those runners are assassinating your leadership from miles away with sniper rifles and anti-vehicle weapons.

Those runners are detonating bombs in all your stash houses.

The hardest entity in the world to fight is a small group of well equipped, highly skilled, highly motivated, amoral, individuals. The small group will always have the initiative and as an organization you are always vulnerable in ways a small group is not.

Going to war with prime runners is simply not good business sense for an organized criminal group. It's not even good business sense for a mega-corp.

I agree with all of this...
however, it must be added that ANY slip-up for said runners is going to get them killed. They're fighting a gorilla campaign against a much larger entity with, practically by definition, massive resources.

Best case scenario for the runners is a war of mutual destruction, with most common effect (barring exceptional competence from either side) 'merely' being a metric ton of damage done to the local operation before the organised crime syndicate takes them out.

So no, the runners won't win a war against the syndicates... that doesn't mean they can't make victory so expensive that starting said war is considered a last resort.

And if they HIRE multiple teams of similarly skilled and equipped prime runners to take the offending team out?

For every resource the runners have, the corps have a million.

The runners have to be successful in their war against the corp many many times.

The corp only has to be successful once.



-k