Exactly right. Guns are not insurance, and they're no more a liability than they are a cure for all that ails ye. They're just an extension of capabaility.

Right. As fun as it is to debate the rise of totalitarian states throughout the western world and the breakdown of social order, I'm out. I've got better things to think about. Let me know when the 3v1l Government comes to kill you and you kill it instead.

This topic sure as heck doesn't have anything to do with Shadowrun. It did not ever and it won't. lspahn72's point about a possible SR-tie in should be discussed in a thread that does at some point at least mention that the topic is that. This is a topic about gun ownership and personal opinions to the legality thereof IRL.

Guns are NOT a liability. There are approximately 2.5 million uses of a gun detering a crime each year. The reported one's are still much higher than the deaths by guns per year. You'll find the one's who had thier weapon turned against them was very low. I can't find the links for it at the moment, but if you want to be truly educated on the subject, you'll find the information.

Now, Kage is right. There is no 100% insurance. There are no guarantees in life. If you want a guarantee, buy a toaster.

So why obtain guns, learn matial arts and everything else if, in the big picture, they are useless? They make you feel better. In the world your skills and your stuff are like a big fuzzy blanket that keeps you warm and toasty on a cold winter night. But, in the back of your mind, there should always exist a chilly, lingering thought that, at any moment, somebody might set your blanket on fire with a blowtorch.

Why do you have a job? To survive in modern society. Why do you pay taxes? Your taxes also pay to keep up a military to ward off possible invasion. They also pay for police and jails to keep dangerous predators who are caught off the streets (which increases your survival). That doesn't mean you still can't fall prey to one such person. And only you may provide the opportunity to stay alive, just remember... no guarantees. Survival is what it's all about boys and girls.

[clap] [clap] [clap]

First up I apologize for this thread, I did not mean it to be such a distraction to the forum. When I posted this thread I was simply curious how the demographics played out here compared to RPG.net. I did not intend it to become such a hotly debated off topic subject, although I figure there would be some debate. This group is definitely more pro gun; as of this post gun owners were less then 30% of RPG.net responders and a bit over 40% of the responders here on DumpShock. I guessed it would be higher here at DumpShock and it was. I was surprised in both cases that it was not greater than 50% I always figured that if you were into RPGs your were into gun and weapons, that assumption was very simple on my part.

You can debate the political and social ramification of gun control or the lack of control all day, but when it comes down to it I have to go off of my personal experiences and feelings. I am sure the following will come off as a spoiled and out of touch with reality American but that is probably a fitting description.

Guns have been a part of my life since I was very young. Some of my first toys were toy guns. I was taught by my father to shoot a 22LR rifle before I could ride my bike without training wheels. I have been a hunter since the first time I tried to keep up with dad and a pack of beagles, at the ripe old age of 9, carrying a single shot 410 shotgun, the same firearm he had learned to hunt with. I have hunted every year since. I received my first firearm when I was nine. I shot 50ft indoor target and hi-power rifle competitively through high school and even now shoot trap, skeet, and sporting clays in local leagues or for bragging rights with my brother, father and friends. Some of the best times I have ever spent with my father and brother have been in the field hunting with them or at the sporting clays course shooting a round. Some the best times I have spent alone have been cold winter days stalking whitetail deer with my slug gun in knee-deep snow or early fall sitting under a hickory grove with a 22lr listening for squirrels cutting nuts. This fall will be my first Elk hunting trip and I have already been to the range several times sighting in a new scope on my rifle and practicing shooting in field conditions. I reload much of my own ammunition as much for the cost savings as for the simple enjoyment of working up new loads and the fun of just reloading.

Yes, I see the firearm related violence on TV and in the news both domestically and internationally, my family while I was growing up was a victim of gun violence and yet I never connected any of that violence to guns but to the person holding the gun. I have fortunately only been involved with one recreational firearm accident and it was fortunately not fatal or crippling, and did a lot to reinforce my own and the other person involved diligence to always be very focused on the safety aspects of firearm related activities. Guns have been always been associated with such a good parts of my life. Several of the firearms in my collection have been passed down through three or more generations. Guns have always been considered a tool to me, a tool that I have always enjoyed using as part of some of the favorite moments of my life.

Take it or leave it.
mcb

I have fired quite a few weapons in my time. I've thought about owning a pistol, and a rifle for target practice(with the rifle locked up in a closet, while the pistol I would rather use a simple enough protection mechanism to keep the kid from using it.)

I have fired - 22lr Pistol, 22lr Remington Rifle, 22lr Ruger rifle, 9mm Pistol, Glock 40, CAR-15 with bipod, 10 power scope w/flip caps, flashlight, collapsing stock and combat strap, M-16(while in the Service). I enjoy practice shooting, and I would prefer one for home defense.

I've also liked in the past the idea of places such as certain areas of Arizona that allow personal carry of firearms to everyone. Because as they say an armed society is a polite society. A criminal is less likely to attack someone who is armed and knows how to use it, as opposed to an unarmed civilian. Don't know if the theory and the actual practice match up however.

*Blink*

Again, as I stated previously in this thread, I don't have a firm stance on gun control. I believe that by the second amendment some form of gun ownership is clearly permitted, but I'm up in the air as to what degree is provided for (Handguns only? Longguns only? Everything up to miniguns and HMGs?). Again, I don't have a stance on that. I fail to see how lacking a stance is closeminded.

Now, if someone who is capable of actually having a rational debate would like to try to convince me of their viewpoint, I'd be more than glad to listen.

And regardless of how correct or incorrect your view may be, if it involves killing people, don't use MLK quotes to back yourself up. Why not toss in some Ghandi while you're at it?

~J

OK

Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving the whole nation of arms, as the blackest.

Mahatma Ghandi, "Ghandi, An Autobiography", page 446, In Freedom

To turn this back to Shadowrun, in what ways would the UCAS be different if handguns, sport rifles, and non-automatic shotguns did not require permitting?

Now that would rock. Ultra-miniaturized rifles!

~J

nano-rifles for the nano-people that talk to me...

Yamomoto, not Yamato. The Yamato was the huge Japanese flagship.

And, yes, it was a concern. It's a concern for every military, really. Special forces in Afghanistan have officially remarked that conducting arrests, raids, and arms checks would be even worse in Utah; at least not everyone in Afghanistan is as well armed.

Some people say you can't hug your children with nuclear arms. They're wrong.

The great thing is, you can hug everybody with nuclear arms.

~J

A number of you have stated outright that part of the fundamental right to life is the right to defend oneself, and that this justifies gun ownership. I'd be curious to hear the reasoning behind the current drive toward Iraqi disarmament. Is an Iraqi's freedom to own guns as a part of the fundamental right to life somehow different? (Please don't use the "not for self defense" argument: for any individual Iraqi, there is as much guarantee that a gun will be used for self defense as there is for any given person of any country - and given the personal security issues there, there might be more justification.)

For the SR context, exactly the same argument could apply to shadowrunners in any environment.

The second question is more specific to the American amendment (and was already touched on in this thread):
Given that the right to bear arms (in whatever context) is entrenched in the constitution, is there any constitutional reason whatsoever why those arms should be limited to personal firearms? (I'm not looking for practical reasons here, only strict constitutional-right ones.)

Side note:

Guys, keeping it in gaming terms, not a rl debate on gun ownership. That's the sort of hting that got the lounge shut down

Well, this is really a fairly important question for SR. If you can claim heavy weapons under the second amendment, the tie between Ares and the UCAS becomes that much tighter, which is frankly a vaguely unsettling proposition.

~J

hi talia,
i own a a Bersa Firestorm .22lr pistol, i think it's a great first pistol and a wonderful trainer for those interested in self defense later. my .22 pistol's name is "Zoe" after a favorite quote of Heraclitus "the name of the bow is life, but it's work is death". i want to get a Beretta 96 Compact or SIG P-220 eventually (ohio's CCW laws favor larger guns).
Bersa Firestorm .22lr

non-violence in indian philosophy is a nuanced thing, i spent 3 weeks there over winter break. There are many people with guns in india, the police are worthless and the wealthy individuals and business often hire armed guards. my yoga instructor said that it's possible to kill a mosquito or human being without breaking the principles of ahimsa. i don't pretend to be an expert but i do believe "there are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

i don't want people to think i'm BSing
here's a picture i took of the McDonald's menu, notice vegetarian options and the "chicken maharaja mac" instead of beef big mac
by the way i'm a vegetarian gun-owner if that messes with your prejudices (nylon shoulder holsters aren't that great though )
here's a pottery village in urban delhi
textiles instructor talking about natural indigo dyeing process, she's great and was featured in Time Magazine of india

i haven't been around here for awhile, perhaps you have yet to see my Sig?

i think the permit system that UCAS has is a disturbing development in the SR world. Canada has something like that so i think that was a consequence of unification. if your guns are registered it violates the concepts behind the 2nd amendment because it's about taking on a government that falsely claims to represent you.

Man Alive!!! I LUV GUNS and I feel they should be owned and fired responsibly. I used to own a 38. Special I have since sold it. In my Shadowrun games I make sure my PC's understand the importance/dangers of firearms as they can kill real life and in shadowrun. Remember it isn't glamourous to kill in real life as it is illegal and has severe repercusions. Same goes in SR3 don't go around killing just for fun. That is screaming for LoneStar to come and geek the PC's if he/she does choose to be glamourous. This ends my rant!!!

I realize this wasn't directed at me, but...

I wholeheartedly agree. While we're slinging quotations, I figured I might add.

How'd gun control turn into pacifism and anti-war sentiment?

It's less about an abject opposition to war and more about a strict adherence to the belief that if I disarm myself, clearly there will never be another need for arms ever in the future, and all my freedoms will be protected by default. Which is wholly ridiculous.

Did someone say that in this thread? That's a pretty wild leap.

I don't think it's really fair to use absolutes in either of those cases.

That said, do people really own guns to "protect their freedoms"? If this were the logic, shouldn't you be allowed to own lots of really effective weaponry, like tanks and missiles and so forth? It seems to me that this would make your job of protecting freedom a lot easier, but nobody advocates this sort of carte blanche arms rights.

More like turning it into a logical fallacy. I never said that having guns was an assurance of freedom. In fact, earlier in this thread, I specifically said a gun is not a guarantee of any kind.

[edit]

Well, some people do. Just read back a few posts and you'll see some of them.

Arethusa, both are logical fallacies; it was an attempt at irony.

As Zazen said, it's not really fair to use absolutes in either case.

Sorry about that. Given that some completely ridiculous and deeply fallacious arguments have been thrown around (on both sides) throughout this thread, I figured it was safer to refute both as logically infirm. I agree, either of the two absolutes really aren't correct viewpoints in this case.

Besides, it was 3.22 am and I need sleep.

Owning a gun and fighting for your right to own a gun is protecting your other rights. You may not be usign your gun right to now to fight off tyranny like I believe the founders have invisioned, but if we are willing to give up a right that was so important to the founders to be number 2, what other rights are we willing to give up. Everyone seems to think the governemnt will protect your rights, or protect you bodlly so are willling to give up their guns. So why not believe the government will protect your rights of free speech or to a fair trail? The government will only do what it is told it can do. If it sees a loop whole or a way to squeez its nose in somewhere it will. Our laws are made by men. We have systen set up to make sure these men don't take more power then they are allowed by the constitution.

If you want to see how the founders thought on the on the subject pick up a book. Thomas Jefferson himslef has said a free man should never be deprived of arms. If I had the time I would find the exact quote, but it is fare better for you educate yourself. Trust me thr founders had all intent in giving man th right to own a gun. It is only currently has government restricted the weapons we are allowed to own. Because they are to "dangerous" for us to have or some other non-sense.