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mcb
I asked this question over at www.rpg.net and was suprised at the results. I would be interested to see if the results here are similar here on this board. There is a lot of talk about guns around this forum so I thought I would see how many of us actually own and use firearms. If none of the reasons I filled in fit your opinion please just pick the plain yes or no and if you want comment below why you do or do not own a firearm.

Thanks
mcb

Edit: If you vote "No, and Firearms are illegal to own were I am from.", it would be nice if you could state what country you are from.
Pthgar
I own a Beretta 92fs.

I have shot Glock 9mm, Springfield 1911 .45, a Springfield compact (3in. barrel) 9mm, a Desert Eagle (it sucked), various other automatic pistols and revolvers, some shot guns and rifles.

My wife likes long guns much better then pistols. We plan on buying a Henry rifle next.

We live in the metro Detroit area and don't hunt at all.

I have my Michigan CCW permit but rarely carry. It makes it easier to transport and buy.

Gun ownership is fun, a right, and an excellent form of personal/home protection when in competent responsible hands.
spotlite
I used to own a shotgun cos we lived on a farm, but in the UK NOBODY really has guns. You need licenses (vetted by the local police. If you live in a city you have virtually no chance of getting it approved - I mean why the hell would you need one? Even if the criminals all had one it only usually comes down to who shoots first and most criminals by nature are going to ambush or surprise you. Not needed. Not yet, anyway. Its bad enough the police have to carry them in some places.

I was given to understand that the 'right to bear arms' in the US was a misinterpretation of the constitution anyway, which actually says something like (and I don't pretend to have this accurately, its just what I've read) 'any member of the civilian militia has the right to bear arms'. And around the time the constitution was written just about every able bodied man who wasn't a criminal was a member of the militia so it just sort of became accepted practice.

Be interested in a direct quote from the constitution if anyone has one? Would settle a number of pub arguments. I don't want interpretations, cos I strongly suspect given the number of Americans on the board it would get rapidly political and out of hand, I'd just be interested in a quote!
Firewall
I am in the UK, though I voted for 'make them illegal' based on the fact that many friends of mine in the US are uncomfortable with the poor legislation controlling firearms.

I have fired live and blank weapons (more of the former, strangely; my area is swords, so I tend not to work with guns) and I think the problem is that I am not comfortable with how easy it is to fire a gun.

Last, if you will invoke the Second Amendment, at least give a link to a copy of the original wording for those of us who live outside the US.
Firewall
"A well-regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State,
the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed."
Pthgar
Amendment II
A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.
Pthgar
Of course it is infringed upon all the time in various ways. Some of them even make sense and are not a bad idea.

Lot's of people are uncomfortable with the sheer lethality of firearms at first (I was), but with familiarity and a large dose of respect, you become confident that you won't shoot anyone. After all there are litterally millions of legal gun owners in the States and we managed to never shoot anyone. Even most police officers never have to shoot anyone.

NRA Article.
DigitalMage
I voted No and firearms are illegal. I am from the UK, England to be more precise, and firearms are mostly illegal, but are allowed in some cases, for example I went on a clay pigeon shooting afternoon as part of my stag weekend (which also means I have fired a gun).
Firewall
QUOTE (Pthgar)
Gun ownership is fun, a right, and an excellent form of personal/home protection when in competent responsible hands.

But how sure can you be that the individual could be considered competent responsible hands?
Frag-o Delux
I don't like how easy it is to wield a lawnmower but I don't see any bans on them.

QUOTE
But how sure can you be that the individual could be considered competent responsible hands?
You can't be, read the link above.
Moon-Hawk
I grew up shooting "varmints" on my parents' farm. I even had a child-sized .22 rifle; when I was still too small to lift a full sized one. We would practice with shotguns and small rifles, and when it needed doing we'd kill an opossum or a raccoon. It wasn't sport, it wasn't hunting, it's just how things work in a rural setting like that.
Ahhh, my humble beginnings. embarrassed.gif
Solstice
hundreds of thousands of people die every year in car accidents but you don't see heavy regulation or reduction in car ownership.

Eyeless Blond
Well *I* do. I live in California, and the restrictions on getting a licence get harsher and harsher every year.
TinkerGnome
QUOTE (Firewall @ Apr 23 2004, 11:53 AM)
But how sure can you be that the individual could be considered competent responsible hands?

What kind of confidence do you place in a government to be able to make that determination? Any government. Governments exist only to serve themselves [edit]IF they have no need to fear their populace. Shadowrun is the perfect dystopian example of what happens when the populace can no longer stand up to their rulers (be they corporate or governmental)[/edit].

QUOTE (Thomas Jefferson)
The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground."


This is one of those topics that usually just turns into a flame war, but I'll add a few bits of reading material.

There's nothing I can add that Neal Boortz can't say better. American gun laws are stupid, and designed by people with no idea about firearms, particularly the ban on "assault" weapons. Try your hand at the quiz at the bottom of the page, it's quite fun.

There's also a misplaced perception of the evils of guns in society. You don't tend to hear about all of the crime stopped by defensive weapon use.
QUOTE (Fox news story)
...guns are used defensively four times more frequently than they are to commit crimes.
Niallan Zheng
There's also that little city in Tenneessee which passed an ordinance requiring all households to possess a firearm. I'm not 100% on this, but I recall reading an article which stated that violent crime and B&E died entirely because of it.
Firewall
Here is a strange and contraversial idea. How about children taking mandatory lessons at school? Simple lessons in how to use a gun responsibly and safely... I mean, probably not until 16 or so but make it a requirement of gun-ownership that they actually have the smarts to point the end with the hole at the other person.
TinkerGnome
I'm all for teaching children responsible gun use, but I highly doubt you'd get schools to do it. The liability issues are too great, and any kind of gun based learning needs to be reinforced in the home by the parents, which is something you can't rely on.

If I remember correctly, in Tennessee, you only need classes for a hunting license or a conceal carry permit. You don't need anything for self defense use.

Another helpful link, conceal carry laws, etc.
Grimtooth
I have been a hunter/plinker since the age of 12. I'm 32 now.

I own 2 handguns, 3 rifles, and 1 shotgun.

My dad took me out in the back yard when i was 12 and started me shooting. He actually taught me the "pocket feed" method. He didn't think a 12 year old should 17 in the magazine.

When i was a junior in high school i bought my first center fire rifle. When i got my first real job i bought a 9mm carbine. About that time my folks told me no more guns.

It wasn't until i got engaged that i bought my Glock 17.

I have a 2 year old at present, and when the time comes she will be taught like i was. 1 round at time.

Guns have always been part of my life.
Firewall
Speaking of the constitution, does it not advocate (or outright demand) the use of force if an idiot gets into the Whitehouse?
Bearclaw
Nope.
That's just an interpretation of the same 2nd amendment. Everyone adds a lot of what they think to what was actually said.
kevyn668
QUOTE (Firewall)
Speaking of the constitution, does it not advocate (or outright demand) the use of force if an idiot gets into the Whitehouse?

Heh. Haven't seen the "use of force if an idiot gets into the Whitehouse" bill. (pun intended).
Frag-o Delux
QUOTE (Firewall @ Apr 23 2004, 11:29 AM)
but make it a requirement of gun-ownership that they actually have the smarts to point the end with the hole at the other person.

Isn't that the precieved problem? To many people smart enough to point the hole at the other person? People want to ban guns because of murders not because of suicides.
spotlite
thanks for the quote. Sounds like one of those clauses designed to be interpreted in numerous ways so that they could get all parties to sign up to it while convincing the people that its nice and watertight and good for them. Plus ca change...
Bearclaw
You know, the constitutional rights of the mentally retarded and convicted felons are being violated every day, in every state in the nation.
Hell, the Dukes of Hazard weren't even allowed to own guns. (Strangely, they could own dynamite, but that's another story).
broho_pcp
To quote my good friend (and he might be quoting someone else).
"Guns don't kill people, Mr. T kills people."
spotlite
When? The A Team couldn't hit the broadside of an APC if I recall correctly...
Austere Emancipator
I don't get what this has to do with Shadowrun.

Have fired (military), don't own, and it would be pretty difficult for me to get a permit.
Arethusa
I've never touched a real gun in my life.

Well, fuck, there went all my credibility.
Req
I've fired a bunch of different weapons, mostly pistols at a range but a few longarms back in my (don't laugh) boy scout days. I'm a big fan of recreational target shooting. I'm no amazing marksman but I can get by.

THAT SAID, pretty much every time I'm at the range I see some total nimrod who's clearly a danger to himself and others. These guys often come in with handguns that they own, generally very LARGE ones, and have little to no idea how to use. When one of these folks comes in I often take a break if I'm positioned anywhere near them, and watch them put rounds into the ceiling and walls and floor and basically anywhere that isn't their target.

I would be a big fan of some sort of skills assessment prior to buying a gun - not necessarily mandatory classes, since a lot of people are able to figure gun safety out on their own, but at least a quick test. If we can require it for drivers, we can require it for gun owners. Some safety education for those who need it would go a long way toward making me feel better at the range.
tjn
QUOTE (Firewall)
Speaking of the constitution, does it not advocate (or outright demand) the use of force if an idiot gets into the Whitehouse?

I think you might be thinking of the Declaration of Independance.

Note, it's also not a legal document.

And I find it interesting, that the Constitution was in itself effectively treason to the Articles of Confederation.
Talia Invierno
I voted "Yes", since I do own (registered), and none of the reasons you list apply.


There's a few separate parts to that "use of force" overthrowing, and no: neither of them references the Second Amendment (which has already been cited in full in this thread). Most of it comes from the Declaration of Independence:
QUOTE
WE hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness -- That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the Governed, that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these Ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its Foundation on such Principles, and organizing its Powers in such Form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient Causes; and accordingly all Experience hath shewn, that Mankind are more disposed to suffer, while Evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the Forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long Train of Abuses and Usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object, evinces a Design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their Right, it is their Duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future Security.
(bolding mine)

As to the constitutional context:
QUOTE
Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort. No person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court.

The Congress shall have power to declare the punishment of treason, but no attainder of treason shall work corruption of blood, or forfeiture except during the life of the person attainted.
- Article III, Section 3

QUOTE
The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened) against domestic Violence.
- Article IV, Section 4


Incidentally, there are a couple of other sections of the US Constitution relevant to the Second Amendment and the definition of what constitutes a militia:
QUOTE
[The Congress shall have Power] To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;
- Article I, Section 8, Clauses 15-16

QUOTE
The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States; ...
- Article II, Section 2, Clause 1
Capt. Dave
I own a few handguns and rifles. I am licensed to carry a concealed handgun (in accordance with state law). My favorite personal carry weapon is my H&K USP Compact in .45
Thistledown
We've got 2 shotgun's, a regular .22 rifle, and a really old springfield .22 bolt action with wood inlays and carvings that my grandpa did. Inherited them, so they don't get used for much of anything, but we go target shooting once in a while. Handguns I've used on occasion, but not as fond of them.

I shoot people with my crossbow all the time though.




I'm part of a group called amtgard that does padded weapon fighting. Mainly bamboo swords with fun-noodle around them, but we have the occasional archer as well. There's just a really complex build to pad the arrows correctly. Shooting somebody from 20 feet away while they're busy fighting your team mate is great though.
Frag-o Delux
QUOTE (Firewall @ Apr 23 2004, 11:48 AM)
Speaking of the constitution, does it not advocate (or outright demand) the use of force if an idiot gets into the Whitehouse?

Nope, the WhiteHouse was finished in 1800, the constitution was written and ratified well before then. The capital was in New York then Philadelphia then D.C. So no there is no law saying if an idiot gets in to the White House. In fact I don't think the word idiot is even in the constitution.
Capt. Dave
QUOTE (Req @ Apr 23 2004, 12:29 PM)


THAT SAID, pretty much every time I'm at the range I see some total nimrod who's clearly a danger to himself and others.  These guys often come in with handguns that they own, generally very LARGE ones, and have little to no idea how to use.  When one of these folks comes in I often take a break if I'm positioned anywhere near them, and watch them put rounds into the ceiling and walls and floor and basically anywhere that isn't their target.

I would be a big fan of some sort of skills assessment prior to buying a gun - not necessarily mandatory classes, since a lot of people are able to figure gun safety out on their own, but at least a quick test.  If we can require it for drivers, we can require it for gun owners.  Some safety education for those who need it would go a long way toward making me feel better at the range.

Hear, hear. I don't go to ranges, I just go out to my parents' 30 or so acres. My brother-in-law goes to a range and I hear horror stories of incompetent idiots with chrome Desert Eagles in .50 with the longest barrel possible, people attempting to wield dual 1911s (when they can't get lead on target with just one...), and so on.

I would fully support some kind of testing to be able to own a firearm, and more to acquire a carry permit. Hell, take applicants to the nearest USMC base and make them qualify. Expert required for a concealed carry permit, Sharpshooter for ownership.
Pthgar
In Michigan, you do have to qualify for CCW.
Pthgar
QUOTE (Req @ Apr 23 2004, 12:29 PM)


THAT SAID, pretty much every time I'm at the range I see some total nimrod who's clearly a danger to himself and others.  These guys often come in with handguns that they own, generally very LARGE ones, and have little to no idea how to use.  When one of these folks comes in I often take a break if I'm positioned anywhere near them, and watch them put rounds into the ceiling and walls and floor and basically anywhere that isn't their target.

I would be a big fan of some sort of skills assessment prior to buying a gun - not necessarily mandatory classes, since a lot of people are able to figure gun safety out on their own, but at least a quick test.  If we can require it for drivers, we can require it for gun owners.  Some safety education for those who need it would go a long way toward making me feel better at the range.


I get on the road every day with those same nimrods in a demonstrably more dangerous weapon. I'm safer in a range than on the road.
Req
QUOTE (Capt. Dave @ Apr 23 2004, 09:39 AM)
Hear, hear. I don't go to ranges, I just go out to my parents' 30 or so acres. My brother-in-law goes to a range and I hear horror stories of incompetent idiots with chrome Desert Eagles in .50 with the longest barrel possible, people attempting to wield dual 1911s (when they can't get lead on target with just one...), and so on.

I saw some dude with dual revolvers in some God-hunting caliber. Jeezus. I've trouble enough with the kick on one of those things, much less trying to go all DJ Double Glock on it.

QUOTE (Pthgar)

I get on the road every day with those same nimrods in a demonstrably more dangerous weapon. I'm safer in a range than on the road.


That's true too. But that don't make me feel better about the incompetant dude in the shooting bay next to me... Just because his incompetance in a car is more dangerous than his incompetance with a gun doesn't mean he's not a threat to me - and god forbid to his kids, if he stores that thing the way he shoots that thing.

edit - added second quote.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Thistledown)
I shoot people with my crossbow all the time though.

What's the draw weight, and if it's under 25lbs, where can I find one?

~J
Solstice
QUOTE (Eyeless Blond)
Well *I* do. I live in California, and the restrictions on getting a licence get harsher and harsher every year.

uh not hardly, from what I hear you don't even have to be a citizen to get a license. Good old People's Republic of California.
Solstice
I own about 14 guns and work for a wildlife agency. I use firearms for work and recreation (hunting, shooting, volunteering).
Connor
Any recommendations to someone wanting to buy their first pistol? Something easy to upkeep and easy to handle for learning to shoot one?
Arethusa
QUOTE (Solstice)
I own about 14 guns and work for a wildlife agency. I use firearms for work and recreation (hunting, shooting, volunteering).

Man, what kind of volunteer work is this?
Req
QUOTE (Arethusa)
QUOTE (Solstice @ Apr 23 2004, 03:00 PM)
I own about 14 guns and work for a wildlife agency. I use firearms for work and recreation (hunting, shooting, volunteering).

Man, what kind of volunteer work is this?

...and how can I get in on that action? smile.gif
Solstice
QUOTE (Arethusa)
QUOTE (Solstice @ Apr 23 2004, 03:00 PM)
I own about 14 guns and work for a wildlife agency. I use firearms for work and recreation (hunting, shooting, volunteering).

Man, what kind of volunteer work is this?

youth hunter education/firearm instruction
Arethusa
QUOTE (Solstice)
QUOTE (Arethusa @ Apr 23 2004, 02:06 PM)
QUOTE (Solstice @ Apr 23 2004, 03:00 PM)
I own about 14 guns and work for a wildlife agency. I use firearms for work and recreation (hunting, shooting, volunteering).

Man, what kind of volunteer work is this?

youth hunter education/firearm instruction

So you're hunting youths, eh? I could go for some of that.
Entropy Kid
QUOTE
Any recommendations to someone wanting to buy their first pistol? Something easy to upkeep and easy to handle for learning to shoot one?
There's some information on CZ pistols at CZforum. I own a CZ 75 Compact and like it. One thing to keep in mind: have you ever talked to a Mac owner? These people are a bit biased like that, but I like CZ pistols (a friend owns a 75 "pre-B" that I got to shoot) and there's good information there. Then again, it can't be any worse than people saying how H&K is teh sh1t!!1! (nyahnyah.gif) all the time.

Oh, and in response to AE this has nothing to do with Shadowrun, although it does have a little to do with the board since a lot of people say a lot of things about firearms and shooting.
CircuitBoyBlue
To be clear to those living outside the US, the second amendment doesn't actually guarantee individuals the right to own firearms, it grants that right to well REGULATED militias, such as the National Guard. The reason people are allowed to own guns is that prohibitions against it, while not constitutionally prohibited, don't necessarily exist. The right to own guns comes from the rage of conservatives in the voting booth, not the constitution.
Diesel
I own a Beretta 92, and have fired M16s, an M249 (kick. ass.), a LE Glock, a few shotguns, and an AR15 (they don't give the police the good stuff :\ ).

I just picked yes, none of the others really describe my views.
TinkerGnome
QUOTE (CircuitBoyBlue @ Apr 23 2004, 03:29 PM)
the second amendment doesn't actually guarantee individuals the right to own firearms

That's a matter of much debate, and one only the Supreme Court can definitively decide on. The high court has never ruled one way or the other on the case. Here's a fairly objective assessment of second amendment case history.
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