True.

I'm just pointing out that they left us hanging in this case by including a lot of cool new options for the deckers but failing to spell out what the basic counter measures would be SOP for the Professionals (Skinlinks, DNI Links, and so on).
They did say they will have a security decker on their team but that was a given as far as I was concerned.
Plus if you are a sniper off on your own away from the rest of the team then what are your options?

And while I don't have the book, I expect that a SWAT Team or a Corp High Threat Response Team like the Red Samurai are included as part of the basic (if high end) opposition.
As I remember there was a Tir Ghost team in the SR4 main rule book.
You can't tell me that these boys and girls don't know how to be matrix secure.

The Errata/optional rules should cover this so we have a base line to work from.
Especially for the new Shadowrun GMs who won't be able to use SR4 background/experience to handle this.

It is not that the new rules are bad, but that they tried to hard to make them universal.

Creating Matrix Bonuses from what used to be a normal function for having an DNI link and then removing that functionality from the DNI.

Adding hacking of cyberware but removing and ignoring the gear to protect against that.
And by not spelling out what the professional's SOP for Matrix Security should be.

I'll have to listen to my players whine about this and then when they reel this back in later books I'll have to listen to the decker bitch about loosing the ability to hack a SWAT team.
Better when you roll out the shiny toys that you also include the common counter measures.

I don't want to stop the decker from hacking cyberware, I want to set realistic expectations for the decker and the rest of the team.

Saves on fuss and wear and tear on the GM nerves.

Yeah the Corporate Corps order it and all the Triple AAA Corps agreed it was a great idea and got in line.
Cause the Corps all trust each other not to take advantage of this.
All the armed forces, intellegence agencies, law enforcement agencies, and rescue workers of the Sixth World (who still buy most of the combat cyberware) also trust the Corps and each other not to take advantage of this.
And the Corps have rolled out a massive free upgrade program to buy every piece of ware that uses the old technology.
All of the deckers out there have agreed there is no point in maintaining the old gear.
And GOD who is trying to make the Matrix safe from Deckers and Technomancers said that is a great idea!
And thanks to new mind control satellites there is no place on the Sixth World that the Matrix can not reach.
Plus we have added triple redundancies built in case of an outage.
If that fails or someone starts jamming then the free Quantum Entanglement Communicator not provided in every box of cereal will spin up so that you can remain connected to the Matrix.

You know that doesn't sound much like Shadowrun.

No worries Apple... Kudos.
You described exactly the things the Cyberlogician and Technomancer would do to enemy teams from time to time. All the tools are there in SR4A, they were just ignored by most because they did not want to take the time to implement them. Had they kept this paradigm, SR5's restructuring of the Extended Roll would have made the Hacker more than powerful in comparison to the rest of the team without having to bork the Street Sam at all.

Look, I'm not saying it is the most logical thing ever. Maybe it could work better with the Cloud. All I'm saying is it is at the level where I can brush it under the mental rug.

I'd like to point out that having a Matrix connection and using the cloud for extra processing power and sensor data should let you do things that would normally take special equipment and hardware.
Things like not having an GPS active, or an extensive and recently updated library on a subject, or an DNI link to a weapon, or a range finder for a long range shot, or an extensive Tac or Sensor net.

It is a great idea and makes perfect sense that in some cases using a matrix connection would greatly expand your options because it can stand in for gear that you can't afford or access.

But they have made the gear disappear and being connected to the Matrix the only option.

I'd not go that far. The 'perks' I see from matrix connection are fine. The 'no perks' options seem viable as well. A little more action? Sure, whatever. I don't see that as a horrible punishment. Some cyberware not being as good as it could be? Yeah, I'm fine with that. I don't see anything suddenly being 'doesn't work at all'.

And from a design stand-point, I can see why they'd go with 'normal functionality of 4E with connection' rather than 'normal functionality of 4E without connection', simply because of power creep. If you accept 'edition translation', then you can presume that what's done without matrix connection in 5E is what you could do with 4E. In-setting, nothing was 'lost'.

Examples being bioware (did it suddenly start costing essence, in-setting?) or dikote (which is now presumed to be on everything, even though the effects of dikote were not actually added).

Seriously. "Now, suddenly, my wired reflexes are worse", is like saying, "hey, I used to be a genius (rank 6) in this skill, but now I'm only half-way there (out of 12)." That's not how edition swaps work. A degree of handwavium is required.

Tashiro, a degree of handwavium can be accepted when you're overhauling the dice mechanics.

Not when you're saying that every single notion of matrix security your character used to adhere to is no longer valid, but never existed in the first place.

This! So much this. If hacking has been streamlined the hackers/deckers would have had more to do and the utility to do it. Doing that, getting rid of skinlink, and making the wireless bonus actual bonus would have improved and revolutionized the game. It's like they went to make a jump and then didn't commit to it, so of course they didn't stick the landing.

Except that it's been explained in-setting. So that's not a problem.
(I'll also point out Cyberpunk 1E vs Cyberpunk 2050 as another example, though.)

I don't think we know anything about the Net in Cyberpunk 2050. If you mean Cyberpunk (Black box edition) to Cyberpunk 2020 there was actually only a small change in how it worked.

Perhaps a more relevant example is in Shadowrun when Virtual Realities 2.0 (not even a new edition) top-to-bottom changed the decking system. That was really well received though

Note that unless they dramatically sped up hacking (in terms of initiative passes to do useful things) all the Matrix bonuses in the world won't matter since it will be mechanically suboptimal to magic or direct application of firepower.

I'm hoping hacking / decking is going to go as fast as normal actions. Presume that the programs you have on-deck cover most of the more complex tasks, so that one matrix action = one real action. Want to open a door? Takes as long as walking up and opening a door. Want to dig through files? On par with a normal search test.

That would be nice.

Nothing has been explained in-setting, Tashiro, unless you first follow the assumption that literally everyone in the Sixth World who has any reason to be concerned about the security of their electronics, from the Great Dragon Lofwyr down to the bookie who takes your bets at a seedy gambling den in Redmond, have all been force-fed the kool-aid.

This is insanity. Simple insanity. "We'll make things that have to be online to have enhanced functionality, and no longer draw any distinctions between devices which are networked exclusively to one another and those which are networked to literally everything in the world." Lofwyr doesn't want his commlink or his nexi exposed to every assjack hacker who thinks he has a shot, because sooner or later, if they have direct shots at his stuff, one of them will get lucky. The bookie doesn't want his cybereyes open to be hacked by some gambler who wants to get a look at what the bookie is seeing so as to improve his odds. The Shadowrunners, the militaries, the augmented police, nobody whose job description involves "using force" wants their fucking augmentations open to hackers or to not work as they used to.

And guess what? They all used to work just fine a mere three years ago. Nobody who isn't having these "Upgrades" forced on them at gunpoint is going to report in and have a set of Wired Reflexes and Reaction Enhancers that work perfectly fine together, networked through their own body, replaced with ones that have to google the cloud for the processing power required to function together.

That's not even getting into the fact that that very notion is retarded on the face of it. Even assuming you could make it work, mumble the word "cloud" like it's become synonymous with "Magic" and "Matrix" as a synonym for "Astral," as if there was some reason that Brain -> Wired Reflexes+Reaction Enhancers -> Brain worked just as well as Brain -> The Cloud -> Wired Reflexes + Reaction Enhancers -> The Cloud -> Brain, and it's still inherently worse than the set you got that doesn't open you up to hacking.


You need to admit this simple fact, Tashiro: This whole "Matrix Boni" thing is a top-down attempt to force something SR4 said was a Thing - hacking of cyberware - to be a Thing, when all the experience with SR4 showed that nobody wanted it to be a Thing because it is NOT FUN and it MAKES NO SENSE.

Used Alpha.
Cheaper, better, older, no wifi.

Just so we are all being honest here this is opinion not fact. My opinion is that it is provided not forced, that it was wanted in SR4 but not implemented well, and that it IS FUN, and DOES MAKE SENSE. Please quit trying to present your opinion or that of others as fact.

It is being forced: You either bend over and open up equipment that has no fucking reason to be wireless to the wireless Matrix, or it fails to work as advertised.

It was not wanted in SR4: Just ask everybody who took one look at the notion of their 'ware being hacked and said "fuck that, I turn the wireless off."

It IS NOT FUN: Augmented mundane characters are already at several disadvantages compared to Awakened characters, whilst the balance-point on Awakened characters is that if they take augmentations, they lose proficiency and power with their magic. Counters accessible to mundane characters that can effectively defend against Awakened attacks are few and far between, whereas Awakened characters have access to most of the tools mundane characters use to defend themselves against mundane means (such as body armor,) but also magical counters which are unavailable to mundane characters.

Mundane characters require augmentations to be competitive with Awakened characters in any capacity whatsoever, and now their augmentations - paid for with nuyen, and paid for with Essence - are either vulnerable to outside attack by augmented hackers, automated attack agents, Sprites, and bloody technomancers, and if they don't like opening them up for those attacks, their augmentations no longer work as they were advertised to do.

It DOES NOT MAKE SENSE: None of the explanations for why your fucking hydraulic jacks need to be connected to the Matrix to jump as they are advertised make one motherfucking iota of sense. There is literally no reason that your leg augmentations need to consult "The Cloud" to determine how to jump properly. I don't want to hear any bullshit about "But distributed processing!" Processing power is not an issue in Shadowrun. All of the hydraulic jacks that were installed in Street Samurai's legs in the 2050s, the 2060s, and early 2070s did their jobs just fine without googling "The Cloud," because when you build something into a person that needs a given amount of processor power to do its job right, you build it with that fucking processing power inside it, so that it continues to work if the person you put it in goes somewhere like the mojave desert or gets jammed or whatever.

Please step back and learn a thing or two about computing before you declare "But the cloud," or "but future" or "but opinion." My opinion is that the top-down design decision that forced this down everyone's throat was 100% wrongheaded and that whomever made that decision should have been fired on the spot if they pressed for it. My opinion is that whomever made that decision took exactly the wrong take-away lesson from SR4, and that they were wedded to the idea of hacking people's cyberware, and said "I don't care what kind of abrogations of sanity need to be made, get it done."

My intellectual analysis says that none of it makes sense, in-universe or from outside looking in.

If you feel that way, than I invite you to answer the question I originally asked Critias:

Take a deep breath, man. Take it from me, getting worked up about the million and one absolutely BS aspects of Shadowrun will just burn you out (it's why I stopped freelancing or even playing Shadowrun for years). The entire setting is riddled with contrivances, in-jokes gone bad, contradictions, and stuff that intellectually makes no sense. But as an organic whole it pretty much hangs together and is a fun place to adventure in. Just don't take it seriously as an exercise in speculative science fiction and use a scalpel blade (or entrenching tool) on the offensive bits you can't ignore.

Contrivances and in-jokes that make a cohesive whole are fine. Contradictions are the sort of thing we laugh about here on Dumpshock and decide collectively to go with what makes the most sense - such as ridiculing and not taking seriously the submarine extraction from bogata. Stuff that intellectually makes no sense can be taken in small doses.

But the whole direction that the Matrix and gear and cyberware was taken, in order to make every item individually hackable and attackable by removing functionality that those things damn well should have unless they open themselves up for hacking is toxic to the organic whole of the setting. It rots out such a core part of the setting that everything else fails to make sense, it rots it so badly that it violates suspension of disbelief.

Hence, this post, which was all about taking a sharpened entrenching tool to the bits so offensive and insulting to my intelligence, and so toxic to the setting that they are simply unacceptable, and shoveling the acceptable bits from the prior edition back.

The SR4 Matrix is terribly flawed from all sorts of standpoints, but the flaws are obscure enough and deep enough that you have to be an actual information security expert to have them rub you raw. The rest of us can take them with a grain of salt, because they still depict a setting which makes enough sense for us to suspend our disbelief and envision that it can function.

SR5's whole "open your shit up to hacking or it doesn't work as advertised, and something is either online or offline, no networking or bottlenecks need apply" schtick is not a "take it with a grain of salt" thing. It's all the salt in the dead sea, dumped on my head at once.

Again nothing here is factual. It cannot be proved or disproved in any empirical way.
I think gear works exactly as advertised without wireless. Your opinion is that it should give the wireless bonus without wireless. That is opinion. There is no way to quantify your belief.
In SR4 I turned off wireless not because of any issue with the concept, but rather because it offered no benefit to do so. Differing opinions, both valid, but not fact.
I would love to play a decker that could use this ability instead of having to pretend I was not a liability in combat. Therefore it would be FUN. Trying to portray an concept like fun as anything but opinion is a stretch to say the least.
how much sense it makes depends on how much you are willing to accept whatever explinations are presented in this fictional RPG world. Does it make RW sense? Probably not, but even that cannot be saud with factual certainty until 2075 arrives. Does it make RPG sense. In my mind yes. So we have once again differing opinions.
And finally thank you for admitting that it is your opinion. I have never had any issue with that. In fact I applaud your opinion, and the strength of character to voice it. Now if we can get you to admit that those who have different opinions have just as much right to them as you do we will have made real progress.

I think I've answered a few of them a while back. Most of them would be thought command versus manual action (flipping switches, pressing punch codes, or dealing with a safety to prevent accidents.

Forearm snap blade. You unlock the safety and flex to have them pop, or you say 'release' and it pops. Why does it need a Matrix connection? Because the command software is controlled by the corporation rather than anywhere local.

Could you program something into your commlink to handle it? Very likely. But that wouldn't be 'default', that would be akin to rooting your cellphone - which is fine.

Sorry but it's an absolute fact that non matrix linked smartlink does absolutely jack shit to an average person.

Also big problem with your "how much you are willing to accept whatever explinations are presented in this fictional RPG world" statement is that absolutely no explonation is given for any of the wireless bonus bullshit.

Tashiro:Soory but thought command do not in any way what so ever recuier a matrix connection.

Agreed. My opinion is that this is a good move on their part. Now there is a significant window in which it is advisable to choose other add ons to weapons, or buy guns not already smartlinked. Having not seen the book, or future gear I cannot say that these option exist, only that the window is much wider to allow their use.
I would actually be OK with NO explanations. In fact often fluff only adds confusion in rules. Setting history and background are really the only fluff I require in my games. SR is rich in this, and allow me to make up my own reasons why it works is another positive to the system for me.

Theyr very very very unlikely to exist ever.

I'd normally agree, unless the program that runs the voice / thought command isn't on your commlink, and is held by the corporation. I've a few programs on my smart phone which just don't work if I don't have my cellphone connected to the internet, and a few specific programs (from my ISP) won't work if connected to my wireless network, it has to be specifically connected via cell, or it won't work at all. I can see this kind of thing being used by the corps.

The speed of radio-waves in atmosphere is very quick, but it is not faster than light. That's inarguable fact, and thus the very notion that in any way, shape, or form, leaving your chemical suit connected to the Matrix lets it seal up faster by routing your request for it to seal up through the Matrix rather than through a wired or skinlink DNI is laughable.



Wired Reflexes and Reaction Enhancers worked together just fine without calling upon "The Magical Cloud of the Matrix" for extra processing whatsit just fine from 2050 through 2073. Suddenly, in 2076, they stop working together. Either the laws of physics have changed, or my existing SR4 character was kidnapped at gunpoint, taken to the secret asshole labs, and had her perfectly-working-together WR+RE rig forcibly replaced with one that won't work unless the wifi is on.



The very idea is absurd. Nobody in their right fucking mind designs an entire range of implants which are designed from the top-down to have massive security vulnerabilities. And that's what this is: top-down design abrogating logic, sense, and reason.



You want your hacker not to be a liabiltiy in combat? Then do what the face does, invest some money in a smartgun link and a smart-gun, and start laying down suppressive fire for the sammie. Or hide and command your robotic minions to slaughter everything that stands before you in opposition. Or hack into the enemy's tactical net to make their information your information. Spoof commands to the enemy's drones to direct fire on their own position. Hack the building's local systems to put darkness on your team and glare on the other guys. Hack the doors to isolate the enemy reinforcements so the street samurai can pick them apart one by one. Grab a few grenades off your bandolier and huck them at expensive-looking shit. Invest in some first aid and patch up the magician's drain so he can continue whipping out the spells that makes the peoples fall down.

Nobody needs to hack cyberware to be useful in a fight.



It only makes RPG sense if you're willing to swallow the MMORPG full-on gamism aspect. I am not. Very few of us are. This is telling us that we must don a flourescent pink outfit to gain a bonus to initiative.



I didn't admit it was all my opinion, bub. My opinion is that the decisions behind it were asinine. My facts and analyses are that the implementations are rubbish, abrogate everything we know from canon - and that is a fact.

Remember, SR4 didn't happen in a vacuum. SR4 built on SR3, which in turn built on SR2. SR5 is just ignoring all of that to make Combat Hacking a Thing, ignoring all of the facts we have about the way things were scant in-universe years ago.

And quite honestly? I do not value your "right" to have your opinions on this matter, because your "opinions" in the matter are, as stated, scanning to me, being analysed by me, as toxically acceptive of bullshit shenanigans that, if continued, will permanently and irrevocably poison a game setting that I am very much invested in. So don't pull that "I respect your opinions" nonsense on me. Either call me your enemy in this matter, or back down, because I will not accept that this is a matter on which we can agree to disagree!

That is a very negative outlook to take. I prefer to be optimistic and disappointed than unhappy from the beginning.

Non wireless smartlink is a piece of shit because it was deemed that getting a minor bonus to ones shooting pool(or major in case of an average person) without being hackable is just too good, thus nothing that is better can be added to the system without making that change in smartlink pointless.

can you see it being used by the military and secret services/special forces as well?

Radio waves through air is quite a bit faster than light through glass fiber, which is somewhat faster than electricity through insulated copper, which is orders of magnitude faster than neurological impulses. Three months ago, research was published on a hollow fiber cable allowing light to travel at the same speed as radio waves through air. Air also has the slight advantage of being in a straight line, and being without the latency of being converted from an electrical signal to a photonic signal.

The connection method is irrelevant to SR5 wireless bonuses.

The only thing that matters is "Matrix Connected" or "Not matrix Connected".

You could manually unfold and lock your tripod, and as long as it's Matrix Connected, it would still be counted as a Free Action. You could have a direct neural interface with your tripod, with motors that snap the gear into place in a moment, and it would still be counted as a Complex Action if it's not Matrix Connected.




-k

I could see a military unit having a central tower which holds all the software, allowing them to access it (I was surprised how much stuff is integrated in modern militaries). I could see secret service having a few things wired, and then running 'silent' when they need to, without any trouble.

Err, I think this is where common sense would apply. As in 'what is causing it to be a free action or complex action'. I'd presume the complex action is 'manual', and the free action is 'automated'. If you're 'connected', you could probably still take the complex action to do it by hand and if you aren't connected, you wouldn't get to automate it.

Hmm. I'm idly wondering how FTL communication and 'teleported' information would progress in Shadowrun. We've got the rudiments now, I'm sure it could be developed further in the Shadowrun universe.

Having data go from point A to C without crossing through B? Very, very useful.

My opinion is that Matrix connected is the abstract for electronic deployment of the gear. Without the matrix it MUST be deployed manually.

I've been trying to come up with a reply to this, but it's just so fucking stupid my brain hurts every time I try. I award you no points for this explanation, and may God have mercy on your soul.

I would however still like to hear someone who worked on writing 5th respond to this particular question, as opposed to the much more general question of cyberware hacking.

This has become a very very circular series of discussions or arguments.

In Shadowrun, heck in anything that uses the term I've ever read (Shadowrun, Battletech, WH40k, Cyberpunk, World of Darkness, Traveller, Startrek and StarWars to name a few) DNI (Direct Neural Interface) means whatever is plugged in in that fashion operates at the speed of your thoughts in the same way as moving your own body. The "Software" to do so has to be there else it's Not DNI. It's INI (indirect neural interface) or Snail Mode to use existing SR nomenclature. You're plugged in but there is an active Software/Machine barrier. The Cloud Software concept might be faster than manual operation but will not be faster than DNI, which doesn't even have anything to do with Transmission speeds as has been argued back and forth. This is why.

DNI: I think it, it happens. That concentration for most pieces of cyberware require no greater concentration of thought than closing your fingers into a fist (works without actions) or marginally more (free actions). This is why things like SmartLinked guns can eject clips this way.

Matrix Connected: I think, a signal accesses the software on the matrix, it happens. There is an extra step in the process and it doesn't matter how fast the Matrix is, because the thought time to bounce the signal to software for the software to then bounce the affirmed commands back into the ware, will be as fast as the thought command to the 'ware direct. It doesn't matter if the Wifi is 100x faster than the internal fibre optics DNI, because that's still adding 2x(1%DNI speed +processing command in the software time) time to the mental command.

In combat time that time differential is not even worth noting most like, but it certainly doesn't make the Matrix connection Faster than the DNI.

There is a reason Hot ASSIST beats Cold, that Deckers prefere VR to AR. Because BOTH happen Thought quick, but one has a buffer of Software, Machine and Matrix coding to work with, through and around.

Reflexes don't depend on thought at all.

Thanks for this. Greatly appreciated.

Most things described as "Reflexes" are still reactions to subconscious information processing by the brain and implementation by the nerves and muscles network. It's subconscious thought instead on concios thought, which is faster because the Concious step is removed, it's also why Wired Reflexes used to make those with them react with popping spurs, drawing guns etc in surprise or stress situations.

Ignoring the fact it's realistic, and that modern technology already does this sort of thing?

Reflexes aren't processed by the brain.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reflex_arc

If you really want the Matrix to make things work quicker you have each piece of "on off" type gear connected to a series of Agents running appropriate assessment program's via your cyber eyes (mostly threat assessment) and perhaps TacNet. Under certain contingencies (which can be quite a broad spectrum given how clever programs can run in Shadowrun now) they will activate the appropriate 'ware or gear in the appropriate fashion Without you having to give any Concious or subconscious commands and the processing power of the Matrix then Does shine, because it can "think" faster in linear terms than even your instincts can. Essentially each Agent delivers a Free Action, seperate of yor own actions in a round (or indeed a simple), to activate/deactivate your toys. Now There's an online bonus.

this discussion REALLY reminds me of some discussions between religious people and atheists somehow . .

Really? That's funny. The apps on my phone aren't stored "in the cloud." The work just fine if I can't get a Wifi or data signal. If their function is inherently linked to connecting to the internet for data, they may have reduced or no function, but not all of them do.

My QR code reader app can still read the data stored in a QR code if everything is shut off. It won't be able to launch the browser to take me to a web page if the QR code is a URL, but it will still be able to decypher the URL and display it to me.

My flashlight app doesn't give a damn. Hell, it works better in offline mode, because then I'm not getting ads shoveled at me across the bottom of the screen.

@Shemhazi. That's why I said most of what we call "reflexes". Ie: catching a moving object without "thinking" about it and all of the stuff Wired Ref does ect. As opposed to actual reflexes (iris contraction, flinching from bright light, recoiling from pain and so on).

cndblank, you owe me a new sarcasm meter... and the plastic surgery to replace the eyebrows removed by the exploding of said meter.

Eyebrows grow back. Just ask the Mythbusters.

This was a particularly VIOLENT explosion... I barely escaped with my life.

Yes, and a bunch of my apps work fine as well. However, I do have apps which require connection to the internet, and some which require my cell phone not be connected to a wireless network. There are also laptops which don't do anything unless connected to the internet, because the OS and everything else is stored on the internet.

So, really, having a corporation do this? 100% realistic. Now... whether or not anyone likes this is a completely different discussion. I'm just pointing out we're about 80% there (and almost further with the XBox One, until they changed their minds), so having the Shadowrun universe nudge the rest of the way isn't a big stretch.

Actually, the XBox One was an excellent example - doesn't work after 24 hours of no internet connectivity. THAT is almost exactly exhibit A for this.