And quite honestly? I do not value your "right" to have your opinions on this matter, because your "opinions" in the matter are, as stated, scanning to me, being analysed by me, as toxically acceptive of bullshit shenanigans that, if continued, will permanently and irrevocably poison a game setting that I am very much invested in. So don't pull that "I respect your opinions" nonsense on me. Either call me your enemy in this matter, or back down, because I will not accept that this is a matter on which we can agree to disagree!

The vehemence of your response is not surprising to me. I am not your enemy, I am a lover of SR since it first hit the presses in 1989. I have a great deal of respect and love for the system. I just don't agree with you that this is a wrong direction. I am sorry that you cannot accept that. I am a gamist. I say unapologetically. You are not. Fine. I'm ok with that. Are you?

At some point, it's best to just disengage. As far as I can tell, he has posted approximately 20,000 words on the issue over the last 5 days. I doubt anything anyone has said is going to change his opinion on something, or get him to stop offering his own..

-DrZ

this discussion REALLY reminds me of some discussions between religious people and atheists somehow . .

Actually, the XBox One was an excellent example - doesn't work after 24 hours of no internet connectivity. THAT is almost exactly exhibit A for this.

Err, I think this is where common sense would apply.

Haven't been keeping up with the news, have we?

-k

Oh, yeah, they changed it, but originally?

Oh, yeah, they changed it, but originally?

That would of course be military grade hardware and not sold to the public without a license ... just like a grenade, assault rifle, explosives, fake IDs, combat cyberware .

Instead the line developer simply ignored everything in SR4

SYL

The whole XBONE fiasco does illustrate another point:

Just because you offer it does not mean it will sell.

-k

The whole XBONE fiasco does illustrate another point:

Just because you offer it does not mean it will sell.





-k

Actually it makes the difference between our reality and SR quite apparent. SR is a world where XBone would be a huge hit with its always online, always watching with the camera, etc features not only intact, but likely even more stifling.

this discussion REALLY reminds me of some discussions between religious people and atheists somehow . .

. It didn't work very well in that regard.

Just as a point of reference there are quite a few people that don't feel it is as bad as you do. Before you jump on you soapbox I know this too small a sample to be decisive, but it may be representative of those here on Dumpshock.

How excited are you for SR5?

Extremely! Can't wait. [ 28 ] ** [41.79%]
Cautiously optimistic. [ 11 ] ** [16.42%]
Bearish. Not sure I like some of what I've been reading here, I'm on the fence. [ 19 ] ** [28.36%]
Not at all. I won't be buying. [ 9 ] ** [13.43%]

To be fair this is a hobbyists board and its a discussion about the flagship product for our section of the hobby. Even as someone who answere positive for the poll the people enthused input the system not overwhelmingly outnumbering all others combined is troubling. People should be absolutely chomping at the bit less edition grognards never to be pleased.

4: It doesn't work that way anymore. What, you specifically say you have gear bought before 2074? It never worked that way. No, not even if your character is an old hand who got his gear in 2070, 2060, or 2055. Why not? BECAUSE RESONANCE!

They might be able to push this shit to market by selling it to the average joe as "newer, shinier, better," but they can't retcon all of their older gear out of existence, and Shadowrunners aren't going to voluntarily report to have their existing, working stuff replaced with stuff that doesn't work as well. That Ares Predator you bought in 2072 and tricked out to the max with a skinlink isn't going to have the skinlink melt off its handle. And more importantly, the corps certainly aren't going to move all their own security forces onto the "we made this specifically so it could be hacked" standard, because they don't want their guys being hacked. Militaries sure as shit aren't going to do so.

We have a system for hacking devices, and could it be better? Yes, doing away with the Extended Tests could make it better, but ramming this nonsense through is asinine. Hacking to gain an immediate combat advantage should be limited to things that make sense (usurping the other guy's drones, screwing with his TacNet, messing with environmental factors like doors and lights,) and if the hacker wanted to be combat-effective, he already had options such as drawing a gun or directing a drone.

It's doubly pointless because there are two entire classes of character who does not give one explosive shit about you hacking him: first is the Awakened character. At absolute best, you may be able to screw him for a moment if he's wearing AR glasses. But you can't hack his spells, you can't hack his focuses, you can't hack the PhysAd's Power Points. This game already has a MagicRun problem wherein players seem stupid to make anything that isn't Awakened, now you'd have to be flipping suicidal! Running teams are going to consist of one hacker and a mess of PhysAds and Magicians.

The second is the Emerged character, so even odds that "hacker" will be a technomancer.

Look, CJ, simple physics are at work here. If you have a device which is emitting radio waves to enable wireless communication, even in bursts, it's emitting radio waves. If you have a corporate facility which is this highly secured, you have every object which is within the facility and emitting radio waves registered. You know what it is, you know what its radio sequences look like. You likely also have wireless-inhibiting wallpaper, to screen outside noise out and away from your gear. Suddenly, you, with you being either an agent or a hot-sim VR security spider, detect a burst of radio noise. It doesn't match any of the devices that are supposed to be in the facility, and it doesn't appear to be in the visitor registration center, rather it's on the other side of the building. You also notice there's a lot more devices.

If the shadowrunners entering your facility are good, then every one of those devices is at least loaded with its own encryption algorithm, so you don't know exactly what they're carrying. If they're not, then their commlinks are encrypted, but your pattern-recognition suite takes an instant to determine that several of those are wireless smartguns informing their owner of their status, some of them are cybereyes communicating with those smartguns, and all the other things that are detected.

If you're the spioder, you vent your virtual bowels, if you're the agent, you take a split instant to determine the proper course of action. Either way, the following gets done, because you are loyal and value your job, or because you are well programmed: you call back to corporate security, telling them you have a huge problem, and they detail an agent swarm and some remote security spiders to asssist you. They all log on to the facility's node essentially instantaneously. About a quarter of them go to work actively searching for the enemy's hacker or technomancer in the node, so they can gang-bang him in cybercombat, a general alert is issued, critical functions are locked down, and the rest of the swarm go to work identifying enemy devices (which may take a few moments if their traffic in encrypted,) prioritizing them (disabling cyberlegs to immobilize people is priority #1, with disabling smartguns as priority #2, subverting vehicles and drones is priority #3, and disabling cybernetic sensory devices is priority #4.)

This all-out cyber-assault begins just as the on-site security team begins to notice that the red alert klaxon in their lounge is flashing and grab their guns to head out and deal with the attackers. By the time they physically arrive, assuming the runners haven't successfully managed to bug out the moment they noticed the cyber-assault and did so before the cyber-swarm could stop them, they will find a team of criminals in complete disarray, with only the Awakened characters fully capable of fighting, while the Street Samurai - who was once the very thing that corporate security guards shit their beds during the course of terrifying nightmares about - flops about on the ground like a guppy, trying valorously, but futilely, to stand on a leg that won't move, aim a gun that won't shoot with an arm that won't move, all whilst blind and deaf, while the hacker lays on the ground with his brains pouring out of his ears, and the enemy team's drones marked on your HUD as friendlies, this distinction backed up by the fact that they're suppressing the enemy PhysAd with long bursts.

All because no matter how hard they try, the Shadowrun 5th edition authors don't get to rewrite the laws of physics. Radio-Frequency Triangulation is a thing, and anything which is "wireless" is emitting radio waves. No matter how "hidden" it is, in a secure facility where the local security measures are non-trivial and include Matrix security, it stands out like a sexually-flamboyant Christmas tree with Santa Claus perched on top at Hanukkah.

Agreed. But it still serves to illustrate the point that the detractors (a descriptive not judgmental term) likely voted option C. There are a large number of A votes on the board. The point is that this edition is far from a group consensus on the negative side of things. I admit it is in no way a comprehensive cross section. It is a indicator that not as many people hate it as is being portrayed. There are a lot of us here that like what the system has shown us so far. You are one of the posters here who discusses matters in a civil and intelligent manner. I for one appreciate that. Thank You.

Because none of that gear needs software and firmware upgrades to function properly, right? And it's not like megacorps, who spent a lot of money to upgrade the entire matrix, would not put in options to brick the cyberware they manufactured in order to force people to upgrade to their new system up to and including ceasing to make replacement parts for older ware. Hell, I work for a major cable company and the manufacturers of our multiroom DVRs managed to put out a firmware update that bricked about a quarter of the units we had out in the field... and that was done unintentionally. The megas are pushing their new "safer, unhackable" matrix for all it's worth and they have the power to do it however they want.

If only there were a couple of character archtypes that could spoof those registrations to hinder detection and defend against cybercombat attacks if things go wrong, maybe use the ones that tended to not have an active presence in runs so that there was more of a reason for them to tag along and have something to do while they were there...

So go ahead, tell me that my vote of A means that I'm not uproariously angry about the new Matrix bulldrek! TELL ME THAT'S WHAT MY VOTE MEANS.

No. They really don't. They wouldn't collude on such a scale, because, lest you forget, they are competitors. Sure, they'd be pleased as punch if the other guy's shit was using ass-gape ware, but they're sure as hell not going to open their own security and military forces up. The national militaries who support their defense contracts wouldn't take that, either, and if you think they'd just let the Megas breach their contracts by bricking all that military cyber and hardware and telling them to come get new ones, oh, and we're not going to honor the terms of our support packages that say we'll continue to support your cyber, well, think again.

This move would never happen, because it's basically predicated on the largest competitors on the setting colluding in a massive conspiracy against the entire rest of the world, and nobody in the world is willing to stand up and say "this isn't right, give us money and we'll make cyber that isn't ass-gape hackable."