Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Troll Combat Monster in SR5
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
Pages: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5
Jaid
high body is useful for almost anyone, but not exactly amazing. i really don't give a crap how good you are at soaking damage until there is a reason i should ever bother shooting at you in the first place. you can be completely impervious to damage, but if you can't deal it out, or otherwise contribute meaningfully, it's pretty useless. being a troll will help you soak damage, but that only matters if it's paired with effective offence, and if all your points are tied into being a troll and you're forced to spend everything into strength and body to be effective, who cares what else you are? (edit: though again, i acknowledge that trolls can make a perfectly good brick that can also be good at using a gun... the problem is that this is shadowrun, and that is *one* character concept where the troll is actually competitive, but there are dozens of character concepts, none of which particularly need to be nerfed just because someone decided they'd like to be a troll).

the only way to realistically make use of it is to go the standard brick troll build. for just about any other build, even if you want *some* points in strength and body, you probably don't want both at 5.

and not only is it not less expensive than just putting attributes at the appropriate level, it is in most cases actually *more* expensive. you're paying more for the privilege of not being able to choose where to put your attributes.

and when i look at that theoretical face/rigger/sam, i can't help noticing that he cannot actually rig anything, he has absolutely no initiative enhancing 'ware, and he has already blown over half his essence (so the cheap initiative enhancer you can't afford in essence, and the expensive one you'll probably never save up for in cash, and if you had either of them you wouldn't be able to afford a control rig because your resources are so low).

and if you want to have a character that is good in both magic and another broad area of competency, you're probably going to need priority A in skills. B is pretty good, but magic alone is 2-3 skill groups depending how far you want to go into them, and that's not even every magic skill taken. attributes A doesn't give you nothing, but compared to picking something else (other than race, which is likewise a bad pick for high priority) it is just not very good.
RHat
Troll:
Now you're just getting more into the issues with technomancers than the issues with trolls, really. The troll mage, though? You're telling me that his being a good mage isn't reason enough for the opposition to target him?

Troubleshooter:
1: That character doesn't need Wires. In fact, Wires are not much GOOD to him - with Reaction 5( 8 ) and Intuition 5, his Initiative is at 13+1d6, or 16.5 as an average. There's an alternative where the character has Wires in place of Enhancers; Reaction 5(6) and Intuition 5 is 11+2d6, or 18 on average. When the exchange is worse vehicle pools and defense pools, 1.5 Initiative simply isn't worth it.
2: He can run drones or drive vehicles, he just can't do it as well as a Rigger would. It's an intentional exchange.

Investigator:
The character would take Spellcasting, Summoning, and Alchemy - but not necessarily at rating 6. The 5 group points would likely go to either Influence in whole, or also into Stealth, Impersonation, and Athletics. Other skills would include Assensing, Perception, Computer, and Pistols, and skills like Binding Pilot Ground... This is the sort of character that uses a lot of skills, but mostly not high ranks - relying on magic to account for the difference, such as with Detection or Increase Attribute spells.
Cain
Well, a troll brick has the advantage of being scary. NPC's don't have stat monitors, they can't instantly judge that the lithe elf with a pistol is more dangerous than the big troll with a bigger machine gun. As such, trolls make great defenders, because they do tend to draw fire. Yes, everyone knows to geek the mage first, but you can't always tell who the mage is... but the troll is obvious.

And Jaid, you're ignoring the many other archetypes where a troll can be competitive. Troll mages have been gone over, they're not as good at conjuring, but they can make up for it in other ways. Troll covert ops specialists can work well, especially if they're an adept to boot. Heck, an unaugmented troll detective might even be viable, they make up for the lower charisma by getting a lot of contacts, and the troll attribute bonuses keep them on par with the human noncombatants in a fight.
Sponge
QUOTE (Slide_Eurhetemec @ Apr 8 2014, 11:07 AM) *
I'm well aware, but, I dunno man, it's a lot of time and rolls when you can get 30% "instantly" just from a loyalty 6 fixer and forget about it! smile.gif As "why not?" the answer is usually "because the group is only 2-4 people and none of them decided to be a face", which is I think a reasonable answer.


A Connection 1 Fixer (the best you could have along with a Loyalty 6 at chargen) isn't much of a Fixer, and probably wouldn't be able to fence most of the stuff you want to sell.

QUOTE (Cain @ Apr 9 2014, 08:53 PM) *
Any character that plans on getting hit benefits from a high Body... and Shadowrun combat being what it is, you better plan on getting hit. Strength doesn't help much outside of melee combat, but it does have uses, such as climbing and athletics. A Mission Impossible troll covert ops specialist is certainly possible.


Yes, true, it's always nice to have higher Body or Strength... but is it worth trading away a lot of valuable alternatives for something that's secondary (or worse) to most archetypes? That's the main issue with trolls in SR5 - you end up paying effectively full price for that extra Strength and Body, but Strength and Body are only worth full price for a narrow range of roles.
Jaid
the question is not whether or not it is completely unplayable, the question is whether or not it is an equally good option to your other options.

if it is mechanically worse to be a troll than it is to be everything that is not a troll, there is a problem with the system. you are punishing people for choosing to play a troll, rather than making them pay an appropriate cost for being a troll.

again, +4 body and strength is only good if you would have been planning on investing 4 points into each of those attributes in the first place, and really isn't even good then unless you actually plan on going at least above what the other races could put into those attributes, because every other race is literally gaining more attributes for their cost than the troll is.

once again, troll at priority B vs human at priority E is +7 attributes (the human gets +1 attribute, the troll gets +8, difference of 7). attributes B vs attributes E is 8 points. a human has more total points, so unless you plan on having more points in strength and/or body than the human could have, the human is better off. same thing happens most of the time when you go up a priority; you'd have more total attributes by choosing anything other than a troll, so unless your plan calls for something you literally cannot get from another race, you're paying an extra fee to not have the privilege of choosing where to put your attribute points.

and once again, attributes at high priority just doesn't gain you nearly enough. you still don't really have particularly impressive attributes beyond what anyone else can get. resources B is something like 55% of resources A. attributes B is 87.5% of attributes A. now, attributes don't scale linearly in cost, but as i said earlier, neither do resources really (and honestly, it's not like anyone was planning on an even distribution of attributes ever anyways... the guy with less attributes probably just starts with more 1s that he plans on upgrading with karma eventually). the guy with resources A can buy stuff that the guy with resources B realistically will never get unless he saves up for dozens of missions, and likely is starting with several things like that because he doesn't have to settle for second or third best of everything. if you start off with the second-best chargen available cyberdeck, your expected time before upgrading to the best chargen-available cyberdeck is functionally never (unless you manage to get lucky enough to swipe one off of someone's corpse and the group doesn't expect an equal share of the loot for some reason). same with many other high resource options. even if your group has higher payouts than the book recommends.

there just isn't a lot of gain for putting your highest priorities into race or attributes. they're overpriced for what they give.
RHat
QUOTE (Sponge @ Apr 9 2014, 11:08 PM) *
A Connection 1 Fixer (the best you could have along with a Loyalty 6 at chargen) isn't much of a Fixer, and probably wouldn't be able to fence most of the stuff you want to sell.


Per the rules? Doesn't matter.
Cain
QUOTE
again, +4 body and strength is only good if you would have been planning on investing 4 points into each of those attributes in the first place, and really isn't even good then unless you actually plan on going at least above what the other races could put into those attributes, because every other race is literally gaining more attributes for their cost than the troll is.

Not quite true.

Let's go for a combat decker. A good combat decker looks suspiciously like a light sam, so that's what we'll aim for. We'll go Resources A, Race B, Skills C, Attributes D, and Magic E.

For attributes, we'll prioritize Logic and Intuition, and dump Strength and Body. Normally, for a combat character, this would be a bad move: but since we start with a Body of 5, we're still doing good. Since trolls get dermal armor, we're rolling as many dice as the toughest human, without wearing a stitch of armor. If we also dump Charisma, that puts our other stats at 3 apiece: not good in the case of Quickness, but we can cope with that in a bit.

Skills-wise, we're still light, but we really only need four to be effective: Hacking, Computer, Cybercombat, and a weapon skill-- in this case, Automatics. There's a number of possible spreads we could look at, but for simplicity's sake, let's just max them all. That leaves us four points left over for other skills, or to specialize the current ones. Let's assume we take some other select skills to cover our weak spots, and move on. We'll put our two points of Skill Groups into Electronics, which covers all the other technical skills we might need. When we spend karma, we can specialize everything, and shore up our other skills.

Race is already dealt with, so now we just need gear. I'm not going to stat out everything possible, but we can easily afford a good cyberdeck and programs, some select augmentations to get our Quickness up, really good armor, and a tricked-out weapon. We can afford any one we want, but in this case we'll pick out one capable of full auto. Between accessories and natural strength, we can easily have 9 points of recoil compensation.

Putting it all together, we have a guy who's as tough as the toughest human, and a lot tougher than a normal decker type. His matrix skills are down a bit from what a human decker could have, but only by one point. Combat wise, he's okay-- we're probably talking 17 dice to attack with, which is decent, but not as spectacular as we can get. However, since we're specializing in full-auto, that's more than enough. Opponents are going to be lucky to have a defense pool at all, and with 17 dice, he is likely to make a mess of them.

Overall, we have a guy who's decent in several areas. He's not as great as he could be, but that's the price you pay for spreading out. I normally dislike generalists in Shadowrun, but in this case, trolls actually aren't bad at it.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Cain @ Apr 11 2014, 12:45 AM) *
Not quite true.

Let's go for a combat decker. A good combat decker looks suspiciously like a light sam, so that's what we'll aim for. We'll go Resources A, Race B, Skills C, Attributes D, and Magic E.

For attributes, we'll prioritize Logic and Intuition, and dump Strength and Body. Normally, for a combat character, this would be a bad move: but since we start with a Body of 5, we're still doing good. Since trolls get dermal armor, we're rolling as many dice as the toughest human, without wearing a stitch of armor. If we also dump Charisma, that puts our other stats at 3 apiece: not good in the case of Quickness, but we can cope with that in a bit.

Skills-wise, we're still light, but we really only need four to be effective: Hacking, Computer, Cybercombat, and a weapon skill-- in this case, Automatics. There's a number of possible spreads we could look at, but for simplicity's sake, let's just max them all. That leaves us four points left over for other skills, or to specialize the current ones. Let's assume we take some other select skills to cover our weak spots, and move on. We'll put our two points of Skill Groups into Electronics, which covers all the other technical skills we might need. When we spend karma, we can specialize everything, and shore up our other skills.

Race is already dealt with, so now we just need gear. I'm not going to stat out everything possible, but we can easily afford a good cyberdeck and programs, some select augmentations to get our Quickness up, really good armor, and a tricked-out weapon. We can afford any one we want, but in this case we'll pick out one capable of full auto. Between accessories and natural strength, we can easily have 9 points of recoil compensation.

Putting it all together, we have a guy who's as tough as the toughest human, and a lot tougher than a normal decker type. His matrix skills are down a bit from what a human decker could have, but only by one point. Combat wise, he's okay-- we're probably talking 17 dice to attack with, which is decent, but not as spectacular as we can get. However, since we're specializing in full-auto, that's more than enough. Opponents are going to be lucky to have a defense pool at all, and with 17 dice, he is likely to make a mess of them.

Overall, we have a guy who's decent in several areas. He's not as great as he could be, but that's the price you pay for spreading out. I normally dislike generalists in Shadowrun, but in this case, trolls actually aren't bad at it.


Stats Please... I am still not seeing 17 Dice for an Attack. So I would like to see how you got there (15 DP Maybe - 6 Skill, 7 Maxed Stat (Base 3 Agility +4 for augments) and a Specialty). smile.gif
And it is cheaper to get your specialties with the Initial points, and buy your low skills with the Karma. Karma Specialization is 7 Karma Each, after all (vs. the 1 Skill Point pre Karma).


EDIT: Ahh - Internal Smartrlink for the other +2 - Got it.
Not really much of a character though - More a cartoon cutout than a character in my opinion, and not really good for much at all. Better hope he never needs to do anything like actual interaction with people (Seeing as how you dumped Charisma).
Jaid
and the same character as a human can leave strength at 2-3, get a maxed-out cyberlimb (which honestly is probably the same plan as the troll had), and actually have a decent dicepool for software (which is used in a few fairly important matrix actions), electronic warfare, and hardware (which he needs to be able to repair his cyberdeck).

so if we assume the human version is resources A, skills B, attributes C (4 point difference, but he's getting 3-4 points back easy since he's spending less on strength, and he does also have 2 extra points of edge for what that's worth), race D (did i say 2 points of edge? make that 4), special E.

he now has substantially improved skills, better edge, can soak pretty much the same amount of damage (ok, he'll have one less point of armour), and heck, if he's ok with a lower body attribute, he doesn't even have to completely dumpster charisma (and being able to lie to the nice people at the security checkpoint is generally considered to be a good thing in shadowrun). he also has a higher maximum on agility, logic, intuition, and charisma.

if you *are* making full use of every single point in strength and body that a troll gives, the troll is only slightly behind. the less you would have otherwise invested in those two attributes, the further behind troll gets.

and while it's pretty common to find a build that can make full use of body, not many really need high body *and* high strength, and even the ones that do commonly don't need 4 points in each, and even then you'd *still* be better off making an ork or dwarf (mostly ork, but if willpower is also important then dwarf too) in most cases.

for example, if we made your combat hacker an ork, you could lose 1 body and 2 strength for skills B. 3 points in attributes you largely didn't need that high, in exchange for +3 dice in the electronics group and 8 more skill points to round out your character beyond what the troll had.

(on a side note, i'm not sure if you can legally get 2 points in the electronics group and then get computer at 5 with chargen skill points, but for the sake of argument, i'll assume it's possible).
Cain
QUOTE
Not really much of a character though - More a cartoon cutout than a character in my opinion, and not really good for much at all. Better hope he never needs to do anything like actual interaction with people (Seeing as how you dumped Charisma).

Never said he was the greatest character, just as good as or equal to a human in the same category. wink.gif We had skill points and karma left over, we can assume he picked up Etiquette and specialized it, so he's got 4 dice for social tests. Not great, but easily enough to keep from making major gaffes when meeting the Johnson.

QUOTE
and the same character as a human can leave strength at 2-3, get a maxed-out cyberlimb (which honestly is probably the same plan as the troll had), and actually have a decent dicepool for software (which is used in a few fairly important matrix actions), electronic warfare, and hardware (which he needs to be able to repair his cyberdeck).

so if we assume the human version is resources A, skills B, attributes C (4 point difference, but he's getting 3-4 points back easy since he's spending less on strength, and he does also have 2 extra points of edge for what that's worth), race D (did i say 2 points of edge? make that 4), special E.

That doesn't work. First of all, going from Attributes D to C only nets you 2 points. And since we dumped Strength and Body, converting would leave us with each at 1, before we add things. We can't fix body *and* strength* *and* raise logic *and* intuition to max levels. We're going to be deficient somewhere if we go human. At best, we could have a Body, Reaction, and Quickness of 3 and a Strength of 1. Mental stats would have to remain the same.

Second, even though you get a lot more skill points, we've already maxed the core ones. So that'd make him more well rounded, but not actually any better in his main areas.

Third, even though I didn't fully stat out his gear, we can assume he spent just about every last nuyen already on his deck, programs, and augmentation. He couldn't afford to get a cyberlimb without sacrificing something important, and he might not have the Essence for it anyway.

Finally: an Edge of 5 is really nice, and it's quite powerful. However, people here keep telling me that it's not that great. I personally disagree, but I can say that relying on Edge for primary area rolls is a bad idea. You need to have a good dice pool too start with, and then add Edge, for truly game breaking results. Edge is best used as an ace in the hole, if you need it for a regular test (like attack or defense) then you run out quickly.

So, we end up with a combat decker with a body of 3 instead of 5 + 1, lower strength (and much lower recoil comp), and equal everywhere else. He does get a lot more Edge, but while it counts for a lot, it's not the same as better ability to attack and defend.
Jaid
what on earth makes you think that a cyberlimb wouldn't be part of the augmentations the troll is getting?

and if it isn't, then whatever the troll was putting towards agility can instead go towards a cyberlimb anyways.

a custom human cyberlimb with 6 strength and agility base with +3 enhancement in agility costs a bit over 60,000. if we don't care about strength and leave it at 3, it's just over 45000. with room to spare for lots of armour to compensate for lower body, for that matter, though obviously that's a bit more cost (but much lower cost than most other cyberware armour bonuses).

although you're right that attributes C is a bit lower than i had accounted for (i was initially going to just swap race and attributes, but realized skills B was really nice too). so the human is 6 points down (less those 3-4 he's not spending on strength, so down 2-3 points... but up 4 points of edge), has a better dice pool with guns, has easy access to inexpensive armour (or already has said armour, depending on budget break points), can arguably dump agility as well, and is also good at more stuff (and not just slightly less crappy. your troll can get 4 dice in etiquette, this guy can have etiquette, con, stealth, etc all at mid-high skill levels, or can invest in a wider variety of skills - bearing in mind, the first point is worth +2 dice vs any test where the troll doesn't have the skill at all and has to default, which is pretty major).

simply put, you really don't need +4 strength and body on most characters. the majority of the time, it's wasted.

it's great for melee brick builds. it's still very good for most melee builds (though not for monowhip or shock weapons), and sorta decent for other brick builds. and it's pretty much wasted for most other builds, which don't call for 4 points in strength and body.
Cain
Unless I'm mistaken, humans and trolls wear the exact same armor, and it doesn't stack. So, no matter how you cut it, the troll will be well ahead in toughness. Assuming we spend the 2 point gain to go from body 1 to 3, the troll still has three more soak dice, and equal defense dice.

Also, while I'm not about to put together a gear list, you're making a very large assumption that we can afford a cyberlimb, in terms of cash or essence. Cyberware and cyberdecks are hideously expensive. Just getting some of the essentials I described-- a good cyberdeck, wired-2, and muscle replacement-- costs over 40k. A human with resources A can't do any better with gear than the troll.

Looking more closely at the cyberware rules, I did discover I made a mistake: you can only get up to Muscle Replacement 2, so the troll in my example would have a Quickness of 5. However, your human would only have a 6, a net gain of 1. Since you also lose recoil comp for losing strength, this actually hurts you, since we're discussing an automatics specialist. You're also not able to dual-wield automatics effectively, which can get very nasty if you twin-fire full auto.
Jaid
muscle replacement 2 = 2 essence + 50k nuyen

str 3 agi 9 cyberlimb = 1 essence + 49,500 nuyen.

straight up replacement, your samurai does more punch damage but generally speaking can't land a punch anyways (4 dice, potentially 6 if one skill point goes towards a melee skill of your choice).

so ummm... yeah. i think my version can afford that cyberlimb if yours can afford muscle replacement 2, considering it costs less in both essence and nuyen (although the nuyen difference is small enough to be basically meaningless).

and once i get 9,000 nuyen under my belt, i can enhance it with 3 points of armour. for another 6,000 i can put in a cyberarm gyromount, and still have 1 capacity to spare for strength if i feel like it. which i may as well, i mean, we're talking about characters specialized in automatics here, right?

so... i'm looking at 9 agility for shooting stuff. you're looking at 5. mine has the skill points remaining to beef up all hacking skills. yours is leaving 3 of them at 2.

i can't help but feel that the human version is looking pretty good at this point, with the main cost being a few points of strength neither is built to care about (if mine gets into melee, well, there's shock weapons or even a monofilament whip if he's feeling brave, and yours has a crappy dice pool for melee) and a couple of points of body that mine can later compensate for by investing in 3 points of cyberlimb armour.

oh, and the cyberlimb also covers for the 1 extra physical damage box the troll has.

yours can carry more weight, and to be fair natural body attribute is pretty useful for toxins and such. on the other hand, i do tend to agree that 5 edge is really quite good.
Cain
Actually, looking at it again, you can't get that Quickness of 9. You have the same base quickness of 3, so your augmented max is still 7. That puts you up 2 dice over the troll, but since you're down on recoil, it's still a wash.

And while Edge is very powerful, it doesn't help if you need it for regular rolls, like soak or attack. The troll is actually doing much better on attack, if we consider that he's going to be doing a lot of dual-full-auto blasts. Soak, he's ahead by three dice, which is significant if not huge. And they're still equal in the Matrix. That pretty much disproves your assertion that a human is going to always be significantly better, in this case, the human ends up equal to worse just about everywhere except edge, and since he might be needing it more, that's also a wash.

And as for melee... trolls have reach, remember? So we're talking 5 quickness, 1 skill, and 1 reach, for 7 dice. Which isn't great, but melee is rare anyhow; if we specialize it in Parrying, he's going to be very good at blocking attacks. Your character might have a better attack roll, based on how much he puts into a melee skill, but he does less base damage *and* has a lower overall physical limit, which means he won't be doing much damage either.
Jaid
augmented maximum in SR5 is racial max +4. i haven't even hit it yet.

i don't need edge for regular rolls. i have the same dice pool as you for those main hacking skills, better in the secondary hacking skills since i have more skill points to spend (including control device checks where no regular skill is appropriate, disarming data bombs, hiding, jacking out, jamming signals, jumping in to contested devices, setting data bombs, and snooping), better automatics dice pool, my soak pool is almost as good (and after a few thousand nuyen, will be equally good - 3 points of cyberlimb armour is equivalent to 2 points of body + 1 point of natural troll armour). not 100% sure what you mean by dual full-auto blasts, but if we're assuming we need to use two weapons and splitting attack rules to be competitive, then for a mere 10,000 nuyen more i can get a pair of cyberlimbs at 6 agility and now i'm just waiting on a relatively small cash influx for those enhancements - 6,000 per cyberarm gyro mount (recoil compensation your troll can't get; you get 2 total from your higher strength, allowing you to fire a total of 2 more bullets without losing dice at chargen. shortly after, i'll be getting 3 per arm), and now 6 points of armour (3 per arm) at 3,000 nuyen apiece (so i'll have 3 *more* soak dice, and one more box in my physical condition monitor), and 6500 nuyen per point of agility beyond 6 (max 3 per arm). i'll *still* have more agility than you at chargen, plus plenty of room to grow that doesn't cost huge amounts of money (which is important, because you don't often get hundreds of thousands of nuyen at once). in contrast, you've got nothing to look forward to unless you score enough cash to completely replace your muscle replacement with rating 3 alphaware (assuming you have basically no other implants beyond that and wired 2; essence costs are too high), or both muscle toner and muscle augmentation at rating 3. neither of those upgrades are particularly cheap.

for melee, if it matters, my human still has more agility (1 point). with a stun baton, he's dealing 9S(e) damage, while your troll could at most deal 12P with a combat axe. in both cases, we have the same limit (it's the weapon's, not the character's physical limit), and while your troll's reach plus weapon reach is 2 dice more, the stun baton only needs contact. that's +2 dice equalling out (meaning i still have the lead because of higher agility), and the guy with the stun baton wins ties on offence, which is on average worth 3 dice. oh, and since it's an electric attack, if i hit and you don't soak 100% of the damage (-5 AP, by the way - your troll only has -4), you lose 5 off your initiative and 1 off of defence tests and all actions for the next combat turn in addition to the damage... and the duration stacks. theoretically, i *could* use a monowhip to beat your damage (better AP), but that has it's own drawbacks even for someone who can potentially afford to use it wireless, plus it's pretty expensive.

of course, speaking of expensive, the stun baton costs 750, your combat axe costs 4,000. (of course, you could replace it with, say, a 1,000 nuyen katana, which has a better limit - which you generally won't need - but less damage and AP). i'd be doing 9S(e) -5 AP, and you'd be doing 10P -3 AP, which is pretty much a negligible difference in damage).

the human has pretty near identical or superior dice pools for general use, and can back it up with 5 points of edge when needed.

for the record, this is mostly because cyberlimbs are a good buy though; if you were to stop focusing on muscle replacement and go with cyberlimbs, i think you'd get to 1 less agility with ease. of course, you'd lose out on the strength bonus, but then i've already established how little i think that's worth anyways.
Cain
QUOTE
augmented maximum in SR5 is racial max +4. i haven't even hit it yet.

The rule is really buried, but it's on p94.
QUOTE
Keep in mind there are three restrictions when it
comes to purchasing gear. First, when purchasing augmentations
such as cyberware and bioware, each attribute
rating (Mental and Physical) can only receive an
augmentation bonus of up to +4.
If the attribute being
raised has not reached its natural maximum limit, the
attribute can be raised naturally with Karma; but at no
point can augmentations exceed the +4 bonus cap.

So, with Quickness 3, your augmented max is 7. If you raise the attribute with karma, your attribute maximum goes up; but for the human you're discussing, you have a cap of 7. Technically, so does the troll; if I can find other ways to boost Quickness I'd get him to a 7 as well, which means we're back to equal in attack pools.

QUOTE
i don't need edge for regular rolls. i have the same dice pool as you for those main hacking skills, better in the secondary hacking skills since i have more skill points to spend (including control device checks where no regular skill is appropriate, disarming data bombs, hiding, jacking out, jamming signals, jumping in to contested devices, setting data bombs, and snooping), better automatics dice pool, my soak pool is almost as good (and after a few thousand nuyen, will be equally good - 3 points of cyberlimb armour is equivalent to 2 points of body + 1 point of natural troll armour).

Primary decking skills are indeed identical, but only slightly higher in the secondary ones, depending on how you spent your extra points. Your automatics dice poor is only better by one die, however; and since you have less recoil comp, that actually puts you slightly behind when we're discussing full-auto. Soak pool is behind, and you'll be spending Edge a lot on soak rolls, so that's not as big of an advantage.

QUOTE
not 100% sure what you mean by dual full-auto blasts, but if we're assuming we need to use two weapons and splitting attack rules to be competitive, then for a mere 10,000 nuyen more i can get a pair of cyberlimbs at 6 agility and now i'm just waiting on a relatively small cash influx for those enhancements - 6,000 per cyberarm gyro mount (recoil compensation your troll can't get; you get 2 total from your higher strength, allowing you to fire a total of 2 more bullets without losing dice at chargen. shortly after, i'll be getting 3 per arm), and now 6 points of armour (3 per arm) at 3,000 nuyen apiece (so i'll have 3 *more* soak dice, and one more box in my physical condition monitor), and 6500 nuyen per point of agility beyond 6 (max 3 per arm).

Your costs are off. That should be 63,000 *per limb*, just to get Quickness 6/Str 6/Armor 3. You can't afford those, wired-2, and a really good starting deck. You also can't fit a gyromount in them, what you've used requires 9 capacity. A gyromount takes an additional 8, but an obvious cyberlimb only has space for 15. So, it can't be pulled off. Also, you need to wait to get that armor; the troll could *start* with tripods for his weapons, giving him an extra 6 points of RC, a lot cheaper and more effective than your cyberarm gyromounts. You can't use both, since they both take the under slot. Assuming we started with Ares Alphas, the troll now has 27 points of recoil comp to your 13; the troll can fire multiple full-auto bursts without penalty, while your human can't.

QUOTE
for melee, if it matters, my human still has more agility (1 point). with a stun baton, he's dealing 9S(e) damage, while your troll could at most deal 12P with a combat axe. in both cases, we have the same limit (it's the weapon's, not the character's physical limit), and while your troll's reach plus weapon reach is 2 dice more, the stun baton only needs contact. that's +2 dice equalling out (meaning i still have the lead because of higher agility), and the guy with the stun baton wins ties on offence, which is on average worth 3 dice.

Who needs a combat axe? A telescoping baton is even cheaper than your stun baton. Sure, it does less damage, but the troll isn't trained in melee to attack people: he's trained so he won't get hurt in a fight. And since you can't afford two cyberarms, an equivalent cyberdeck, and wired-2, that means the troll is faster-- which means he can likely afford to take a -5 to defend, which means you're likely to miss. And if he does decide to attack, even though he;s got two fewer on the attack roll, your active defense is penalized because now the Limit applies. You're more likely to get hit, for that reason.

QUOTE
the human has pretty near identical or superior dice pools for general use, and can back it up with 5 points of edge when needed.

Your calculations are off. The human only has one significantly superior stat, which is Edge: although I agree that it's very powerful, it doesn't equal out to the fact that the troll has better dice pools in other areas, as well as better recoil compensation. You might be able to argue that this is a wash, but that *still* disproves your argument that humans are inherently better. They're not better, they're just different; and in some cases they actually are worse off. Specifically: when firing two full-auto bursts, the troll is splitting a dice pool of 15, while the human's base pool is 16. The troll takes no recoil, while the human is looking at -7 or so; net result is the troll has two attacks at 7 and 8, while the human is splitting 4 and 5. Even spending Edge, the human is only at 5 and 6, if we allow for exploding dice we might figure this is equal to 6 and 6, but that's still behind the troll.

So, even if you spend Edge, you're behind the troll in offensive firepower... and since Edge is finite, you can't afford to do that on a regular basis. The troll wins this area, hands down.

All you're proving is that you can build a human to be the equal of a troll, in an area where trolls are playing against type, if you take a radically different approach to the same archetype. You're not showing that trolls are automatically weaker in any significant capacity, or that humans are better at anything except Edge. And while Edge is a huge advantage, it's not the final word.
Sponge
QUOTE (Cain @ Apr 13 2014, 01:16 AM) *
Actually, looking at it again, you can't get that Quickness of 9. You have the same base quickness of 3, so your augmented max is still 7.


Augmented maximums don't apply to cyberlimbs, since they don't affect your attribute.
Umidori
QUOTE (Sponge @ Apr 13 2014, 11:56 AM) *
Augmented maximums don't apply to cyberlimbs, since they don't affect your attribute.

They applied in 4E (SR4A, p. 343). Where in SR5 does it say they no longer do?

Also, how do they not "affect your attribute"? Just like in SR4, unless it's a task which uses only the limb in question, you average the attribute values for all your "limbs" to figure out your "whole body" attribute.

Oh, and as an side, this isn't 3E, can we not call Reaction "Quickness", for clarity's sake? nyahnyah.gif

~Umi
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Umidori @ Apr 13 2014, 12:07 PM) *
Also, this isn't 3E, can we not call Reaction "Quickness", for clarity's sake? nyahnyah.gif

~Umi


That is one of Cain's foibles... Just have to accept it. Much like he needs to accept me Bolding and Italicizing his name like I do everyone else's. smile.gif
Besides, he uses Quickness for both Reaction and Agility, if Memory Serves, so it gets confusing quickly.
Umidori
Kinda like Medicine Man's hypnotic dancing, and my manually typed and situationally modified signature, eh?

~Foible Man: With The Power to Foib!
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Umidori @ Apr 13 2014, 12:18 PM) *
Kinda like Medicine Man's hypnotic dancing, and my manually typed and situationally modified signature, eh?

~Foible Man: With The Power to Foib!


Indeed... smile.gif
Jaid
hmmm... well, that is buried deep on the augmented maximum rule. there appears to be some discussion that it doesn't apply to cyberlimbs (perhaps on the basis that cyberlimb customization is actually not augmenting the attribute, or some such thing?) but as that has no rules reference presently to back it up, i'll agree to an augmented maximum of 7 for the proposed character.

now then, back to cyberlimbs: i don't care about strength. i have no need of it, especially not in a single cyberlimb. so no, i'm not making strength 6 agility 6 cyberlimbs. i'm making a cyberlimb with strength 3, agility 6 via customization (which takes no capacity at all), which costs 30,000 nuyen. it then has options for agility enhancement (per our agreement, the most we can put into this limb now is 1), for 6,500 per point, which can exceed racial maximum. i don't need it to beat your dice pools from chargen, though i can pick it up at chargen if i want. so i can get a pair of strength 3 agility 6 cyberlimbs (that can be upgraded at a later date as funds become available).

i also don't have the same soak pool right out of chargen (though why you think i'm going to need to spam edge on soak when your guy, with a whopping 3 dice advantage, is apparently doing just fine with 1 point of edge is beyond me). but i can buy it quite cheaply. 9k nuyen gets me 3 points of armour. so far we've only even discussed using up 4 points of capacity in this new version, and even in the older version when i thought i could go up to 9 agility, that was only 6 points (3 for agility, 3 for armour) - leaving 9, which is a bit more than enough for a gyromount.

also, i don't have the slightest clue why you think you have a 7 point advantage on recoil compensation. my guy has (an) arm(s) with strength 3, worth 1 point of RC. your guy has strength 7, worth 3 RC. that is a difference of 2. even if we make the crazy assumption that it's 2 per gun, rather than just being 2 points of RC period, that would make it a difference of only 4. that's not a 7 dice advantage. it's probably not even a 4 dice advantage.and it's an advantage that disappears once i get the cash together for another relatively small purchase, those cyberarm gyromounts.

and on a side note, the wired reflexes 2 would be the *first* thing to get dropped from the build in any event. 150k nuyen and 3 essence for what, + 2 reflex and + 2 initiative dice? oh hey look, jazz costs 75 nuyen a dose for almost the same benefit. not exactly ideal (especially with the insane and somewhat incomprehensible addiction rules in SR5), but 150,000 nuyen will buy an awful lot of jazz. or, more accurately, will buy you a lot of jazz and a whole bunch of other really useful stuff. that said, it's unlikely that i would have to... as i've said, for a mere 60,000 nuyen i can afford the starter cyberlimbs. everything else can be upgraded later, and isn't even very expensive to upgrade.

even without combat drugs being in the picture, i'd much rather be effective less often than be ineffective more often (if nothing else, hosing down an area with suppressive fire lasts an entire combat turn regardless of how many initiative passes you have, and has no recoil to worry about either).

also, if your melee skill is purely defensive, i can match that. i have +1 die from agility (which i can upgrade to +2 later once i get a small amount of money), you have +1 die from reach. which equals out, until i spend a small amount of cash on it or you spend a massive amount of cash on it.

edit: wait.... you're seriously arguing that your troll is going to use dual tripods, and that cyberlimb gyromounts take up a slot on your *gun*???

uh huh. sure. yeah, i'm done having this discussion with you.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
RC is 1+(Strength/3) for Strength Based RC. smile.gif
Jaid
no, it's strength/3, round fractions up. 3 is 1, 4 is 2. 6 is still 2, 7 is 3.

1 + (strength/3) would mean that 3 strength is 2 points, which it is not.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Jaid @ Apr 13 2014, 04:39 PM) *
no, it's strength/3, round fractions up. 3 is 1, 4 is 2. 6 is still 2, 7 is 3.

1 + (strength/3) would mean that 3 strength is 2 points, which it is not.


Ummm... No...

QUOTE (SR5, Recoil, Page 175)
You get 1 free point anytime you start firing, then you add your Strength/3 (rounded up) and the recoil compensation of any guns you are prepared to shoot (that means loaded and in your hands)..


So, as you can see, you get 1 point of Free RC, PLUS Strength/3 Rounded up.

So, Strength 3 is 2 RC. Looked Pretty cut and dried to me.
RHat
Of course, under SR5's recoil rules, your first bullet is causing recoil and thus consumes that free point.
Jaid
you get one free regardless of your strength. and you get 1 per 3 points of strength, rounded up. you also get recoil from guns. only one of those 3 groups of sources of recoil compensation are from your strength.

i'm not comparing every single possible source of RC. i'm simply comparing differences. the only difference in RC that his troll can access (apart from the ludicrous double tripod plan) is from strength. i don't need to know the exact values of RC, i merely need to know the difference between the two. he has two more than my character, at chargen (unless i only need one arm, in which case i can fit the RC and armour in right off the bat and still cost about the same as muscle replacement 2. personally, i have no idea why we're presuming this dual-wielding nonsense, i'd rather not have my dicepool chopped in half, but it's what he wanted to go with).
Umidori
QUOTE (RHat @ Apr 13 2014, 05:09 PM) *
Of course, under SR5's recoil rules, your first bullet is causing recoil and thus consumes that free point.

They could have just said that the first bullet fired from a gun during a recoil "streak" never suffers recoil, which makes sense because your aim can't physically be thrown off by the recoil of your first shot, because recoil occurs after a bullet leaves the barrel on its final trajectory.

Unfortunately, all I can think of is that they wrote this specifically so they can bring back High Powered Chambering and make it so you suffer 3 recoil on your very first shot, which if uncompensated means you lose 2 dice on your attack test, because fuck physics, amirite? It's the Spinal Tap of firearms - "This gun is so powerful that you can't aim it properly even before the recoil hits you and forces you to have to realign the barrel!"

~Umi
Cain
QUOTE
now then, back to cyberlimbs: i don't care about strength. i have no need of it, especially not in a single cyberlimb. so no, i'm not making strength 6 agility 6 cyberlimbs. i'm making a cyberlimb with strength 3, agility 6 via customization (which takes no capacity at all), which costs 30,000 nuyen. it then has options for agility enhancement (per our agreement, the most we can put into this limb now is 1), for 6,500 per point, which can exceed racial maximum. i don't need it to beat your dice pools from chargen, though i can pick it up at chargen if i want. so i can get a pair of strength 3 agility 6 cyberlimbs (that can be upgraded at a later date as funds become available).

You can't do that either; customization just brings the cyberlimb attributes to your meat levels. Since your human only has a Quickness of 3, he has to use Enhancements, which costs Capacity. Also, since Enhancements are capped at 3, the highest quickness you can get is a 6, one higher than the troll.
QUOTE
also, i don't have the slightest clue why you think you have a 7 point advantage on recoil compensation. my guy has (an) arm(s) with strength 3, worth 1 point of RC. your guy has strength 7, worth 3 RC. that is a difference of 2. even if we make the crazy assumption that it's 2 per gun, rather than just being 2 points of RC period, that would make it a difference of only 4. that's not a 7 dice advantage.

If you only have one cyberarm, when you calculate the pools for multi-attacking, you use the lower of the two. And since recoil depends on stance and foot positioning, you could make the argument that you need to use the meat strength when calculating recoil. But because your quickness also drops by 3, your attack pool (before splitting) also drops by three. Between the two, you're going to be rolling seven less dice. That's where you'll be needing Edge to catch up, and as we've established, needing Edge is not good.

QUOTE
and on a side note, the wired reflexes 2 would be the *first* thing to get dropped from the build in any event. 150k nuyen and 3 essence for what, + 2 reflex and + 2 initiative dice? oh hey look, jazz costs 75 nuyen a dose for almost the same benefit. not exactly ideal (especially with the insane and somewhat incomprehensible addiction rules in SR5), but 150,000 nuyen will buy an awful lot of jazz. or, more accurately, will buy you a lot of jazz and a whole bunch of other really useful stuff.

Drugs are bad, mmkay? Seriously, with your low body and willpower, you're going to be failing addiction tests left and right. Forget saving up for augmentations, you'll be spending all your earned nuyen getting your fix and paying for drug therapy.

What's more, you're also proving the point that humans can't do the same thing as trolls. You can't take the same build as I made, turn him human, and make him effective; you're saying that if you tried a radically different approach, you might be equal. That gets into competitive character building, which is a pointless argument. Fact is, I've shown that trolls can be good in areas other than brutes.
QUOTE
also, if your melee skill is purely defensive, i can match that. i have +1 die from agility (which i can upgrade to +2 later once i get a small amount of money), you have +1 die from reach. which equals out, until i spend a small amount of cash on it or you spend a massive amount of cash on it.

I have +2 from Reach. +1 from being a troll, +2 from a telescoping staff; your stun baton has 1, so I net +2. Rather or not you can actually have a good chance of hitting me depends on how many skill points you shoved into a melee skill, but I do have an advantage.

Anyway, you're not proving your point. Your human isn't better at everything, he's roughly equal at most things, and weaker at some things. Overall, the troll is doing very well in comparison, which disproves your point that trolls are inferior. Since the troll is mostly equal, and at an against-type build, your asseritons is proven false.
RHat
QUOTE (Cain @ Apr 13 2014, 07:03 PM) *
You can't do that either; customization just brings the cyberlimb attributes to your meat levels. Since your human only has a Quickness of 3, he has to use Enhancements, which costs Capacity. Also, since Enhancements are capped at 3, the highest quickness you can get is a 6, one higher than the troll.


Not how the cyberlimb rules work - you can customize up to your natural maximum, regardless of your natural attribute.
Umidori
QUOTE (RHat @ Apr 13 2014, 07:18 PM) *
Not how the cyberlimb rules work - you can customize up to your natural maximum, regardless of your natural attribute.

This is correct, and also how it was in 4E as well.

~Umi
Jaid
ok, first off, why are you fixating on multi-attacking? you like missing or something? sure, in absolutely perfect conditions, because you're using full-auto bursts, you'll mow down mooks. in absolutely perfect conditions. range is not short? lose some dice. lighting isn't perfect? lose some dice. forced to shut down your wireless? lose some dice. you've taken some damage? lose some dice.

multi-attacking is very occasionally the best idea. it is not, by any means, always the best idea.

secondly, if for some reason you're fixating on multi-attacking, you don't need multiple weapons. i can multi-attack with a single gun. i split my dice pool in half, just like you. technically, both targets lose the full amount of dodge, just like happens with two.

except that with one gun, i don't need ambidexterity, and i don't need two cyberlimbs.

as to your arguments about needing full body for those things, first off, you could make that argument for EVERYTHING. the very fact that they wrote those rules means they don't intend for everything that involves any other part of your body to use mixed stats. an explicit example is leading an attack with a cyberlimb. now, even more so than with shooting, melee combat requires your full body. if you are just standing there and only moving one arm or one leg, you are going to fail miserably. if i can use the stats for my cyberarm when i'm using my arm for boxing, i can use the stats on my cyberarm when i'm lining up a shot, because while it does use other parts of my body, it is primarily the cyberarm doing the work.

next up, I DIDN'T SAY I'M NOT GOING TO TAKE WIRED 2. what i said is that >>>>>>IF<<<<<<<< i drop anything, it will be the wired reflexes. but i don't really have to, because my costs are nearly identical to yours. if i go with one cyberlimb, which is the reasonable way of doing it, since we're focused on a suboptimal means of using a suboptimal attack method, my cyberlimb can practically start at full upgrade potential (especially if i get it used, and drop the availability levels). a custom cyberlimb with 6 customized agility, 1 agility enhancement, 3 armour, and a gyromount costs 51,500 nuyen (i won't have the last slot filled, but then again, the only reason to care at all is *if* i need more recoil compensation, and i've already got more than you). of course, i can't start with 3 armour unless i get it used, which i may as well do. i can get both my cyberlimb and my wired reflexes used, in fact, while you can only get either your wired reflexes or your muscle replacement used (getting both will kill you). so i could tack on even *more* stuff, if i wanted to. instead, i'll settle for have more spare money to spend on useful stuff.

thirdly, if your plan for melee is to just turtle, then i suppose you're fine. we're not talking about a pit fight of my character vs yours, though. we're talking about making viable characters. if someone melees my character, i can have 1 point less in my dicepool (unless i decide to spend one extra point in my melee skill over you), and several extra dice on offence. so sure, your character can sit there and wait and hope that someone rescues him from melee, if that's your exclusive focus. mine actually has a much better chance of winning combat, which is frankly at least as important.

i have better attack dicepools. i have better hacking dicepools (even if only in some areas). i match your soak. i match your physical condition monitor. i have more extra areas of skill. i have 4 extra points of edge. i don't need to be ten times better (though calculating just what 10 times better looks like would be difficult at best), i just need to be clearly better. and if i am clearly better, it raises the question of why i would ever build a troll, when i can have better base dicepools in core focus areas, better dicepools in secondary focus areas, and 4 extra points of edge for emergencies.

(and as has been said about cyberlimbs, custom cyberlimbs become unusable when they exceed your natural racial maximum, not when they exceed your natural attributes. it's quite clear when they become unusable, and it isn't based on your natural attributes).
Cain
Jaid, you're getting awfully heated, you might want to consider what you're trying to do.
QUOTE
i have better attack dicepools. i have better hacking dicepools (even if only in some areas). i match your soak. i match your physical condition monitor. i have more extra areas of skill. i have 4 extra points of edge. i don't need to be ten times better (though calculating just what 10 times better looks like would be difficult at best), i just need to be clearly better. and if i am clearly better, it raises the question of why i would ever build a troll, when i can have better base dicepools in core focus areas, better dicepools in secondary focus areas, and 4 extra points of edge for emergencies.

You don't have a better attack: you have +1 dice to roll, but -1 on recoil, which is actually a wash. Your primary hacking rolls are the same, and the secondary aren't that much better, (they could be, but you haven't actually statted his skills, so we can't compare. You *aren't* clearly better in anything except Edge; and even then, Edge is apparently not the answer if you're behind by seven dice on an attack.

All you've done so far is rant that cyberlimbs are better, but you haven't actually tried to compare it to an identical troll build. You're saying you can build a character better than I can-- which may be true, but that doesn't prove that *humans* are better, just that you're not willing to make one.

QUOTE
thirdly, if your plan for melee is to just turtle, then i suppose you're fine. we're not talking about a pit fight of my character vs yours, though. we're talking about making viable characters.


Melee happens so rarely in Shadowrun, it's not a major concern. Unless your character is melee-focused, it won't happen often. When it does happen, you do need to be prepared: since I'm not planning on hurting people, I can afford to focus on defense. That's actually a *more* viable character, since making a melee-focused build is generally less viable than a shooter.

So, despite your protests, your human isn't ahead on attack pools. He's behind on soak, and if he goes full-auto, he's behind there as well-- far enough behind that he'll need to spend edge to keep up. Your claim that humans are always superior is falling flat.
Jaid
the one-handed version has better dicepools. the two-handed version (which only even exists because you arbitrarily decided that you need two guns blazing full auto to be viable) has better dicepools except for the completely pointless and arbitrary restriction that you have to go in full-auto with two guns for no reason to be viable. if he just, you know, doesn't arbitrarily restrict himself to one specific combat action (using full bursts with two guns on everything), he does just fine too. of course, as i've already pointed out, i have no compelling reason to use two limbs in the first place, it's just to point out that if we absolutely must for no good reason use that one specific combat action you've focused on, i can make a build for that too.

the burden of proof that trolls work just fine is not on me. it's on you. you want to show that your troll has advantages worth the cost of being a troll, well then you show it. my position is that human is better. it's my job to show a human combat decker that is better at his job than your troll combat decker is at his job. all i need to do is put 1 point each into those secondary hacking skills, and i've done my job. except that in addition to my 8 floating skill points, i've got 5 group points to your 2, so i'll make it easy: those skills you have two points in? i have 5. and still have 8 points (beyond your 4) to spend on whatever else i want.

and while melee doesn't necessarily happen often, if you're going to be prepared, you need to be prepared to do more than just flail away ineffectively and hope you don't die. being able to defend is good. being able to defend and actually having a plan to remove your need to defend yourself is better. your troll can sit there and be hard to hit. i'm sure that's very helpful. but unless your plan is to drag the fight out for 10 minutes and wait for your opponent to get tired (and hope that he never gets a single lucky roll in that time), your plan doesn't have an end condition. you're not much of a combat decker if your plan for combat is to wait for someone else to rescue you.

so, do tell: while you're sitting there with your two-handed weapon fending off your opponent, thus preventing you from being able to use your dual-wielded ares alphas (the only weapon with which you have an offensive dice pool worth much of anything), what is your plan to get rid of the guy who's forced you into melee?
Cain
QUOTE
the burden of proof that trolls work just fine is not on me. it's on you. you want to show that your troll has advantages worth the cost of being a troll, well then you show it. my position is that human is better. it's my job to show a human combat decker that is better at his job than your troll combat decker is at his job. all i need to do is put 1 point each into those secondary hacking skills, and i've done my job. except that in addition to my 8 floating skill points, i've got 5 group points to your 2, so i'll make it easy: those skills you have two points in? i have 5. and still have 8 points (beyond your 4) to spend on whatever else i want.

Actually, I've put together more of a character. Sure, it's not the greatest, but most things are accounted for. Your constantly throwing "maybes" and "what ifs" into the mix, which shows you're not certain enough to commit to your build. And besides, I've already maxed the cors abilities. Your character might have more gravy during downtime, but in actual hacking, they're damn near equal. And in combat, the troll is better: better soak, equivalent attack, and better recoil compensation for when he needs to hit things.

QUOTE
so, do tell: while you're sitting there with your two-handed weapon fending off your opponent, thus preventing you from being able to use your dual-wielded ares alphas (the only weapon with which you have an offensive dice pool worth much of anything), what is your plan to get rid of the guy who's forced you into melee?

First of all, it's rare to be forced into melee; there's a reason why soldiers train mostly with guns and not so much in melee combat. If someone tries to close for melee, in Shadowrun the best response is to shoot him. Unless he's a very specialized adept, he'll probably die in the process.

Also, although I looked very closely, I can't see any rule that actually says you have to use a staff with two hands. And even if I missed it, there are rules that allow trolls to use such weapons one-handed. Troll size is an advantage here, I can use a two-handed weapon with one hand. The other, of course, has an assault rifle pointed at your gut. A full auto burst at point-blank range will mess up anyone's day. wink.gif
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Cain @ Apr 13 2014, 09:10 PM) *
Melee happens so rarely in Shadowrun, it's not a major concern. Unless your character is melee-focused, it won't happen often. When it does happen, you do need to be prepared: since I'm not planning on hurting people, I can afford to focus on defense. That's actually a *more* viable character, since making a melee-focused build is generally less viable than a shooter.


This I disagree with... We see melee all the time. Yes, we have far more Ranged combat, but it NEVER stays there. Come around a corner, opponents are in close proximity, and there you have melee. It happens far more often than my Characters would like it to happen. frown.gif
Jaid
i'm using the same baselines as you, except where otherwise mentioned. but hey, you want more specifics? sure. i'm not interested in your pointless use of dual weapons. i'm going to use one weapon, which is just as effective and also cheaper. so you've got 50,000 nuyen worth of muscle replacement? i've got 38,625 nuyen of used cyberarm with agility 7, a cyber gyro mount, and 3 points of armour, plus another 11,000 nuyen worth of whatever i feel like.

my dicepool for shooting is 2 better from agility than yours, and i have one more point of recoil compensation. that is not equivalent.

my hacker has more dice on things like disarming data bombs. given how potent data bombs are, that's pretty important. my hacker is better at eavesdropping on conversations. situationally, that could be the entire reason you're hacking someone in the first place, as well as other miscellaneous tasks (which i've listed before) since i've got my secondary skill group at 5 as compared to your 2. that is not equal, that is better.

my dicepool for soaking damage is the same as yours. i have 2 less body (lost 4 points from race, put 2 from priority back in), and don't get troll natural armour... but i do get 3 armour from my cyberarm. hey look, it's somewhere that you're actually equivalent.

my melee weapon has 2 fewer reach than yours, and you seem to be presuming you spent 2 skill points on your melee skill (one for skill, one for specialization). with my 8 spare points, i can allocate 2 to this, although you've already spent an awful lot of time denigrating how valuable it is. but sure, for the sake of argument, i'm now down to 6 skill points more than you. on a side note, i believe you intended to put one skill point into a social skill as well... was it etiquette, or con? or did you want to do both, and leave your perception at 2? whichever of those 3 you're not spending a point on, i'll spend a point on. i'm down to 5 extra now. i'll put one in sneak as well, which means i'm matching your dice pool in another fairly important skill. i still have 4 left, and for the sake of argument i'll throw those into specializations for con(fast talk), perception(visual), sneak(urban), and i can't remember... did you specialize automatics? if not, i'll throw my last skill point into that. if you did (and i've therefore already matched it, per my statement of matching your build except where otherwise specified), then i guess i'll put a point into throwing. grenade use seems like a pretty good choice for our theoretical combat decker. i'm better in secondary areas of focus than you are now. and possibly just gained another 2 dice with my automatics skill, making me +4 compared to you.

so, have i missed fleshing out anything that you've fleshed out?

and are you going to actually look at the changes i've made to the character to improve it before you declare that your dice pools are magically equal or superior?
Cain
Nice job, now that you've committed I can point out that you didn't actually buy up any of the secondary decking skills. Assuming you kept the group points where I did, that means you're still identical in Matrix abilities. In *every* Matrix ability, I might add; while you might try and backpedal some, as it stands you don't have a single dice advantage anywhere for your human.

Second, even though you keep harping on the cyberarm, you're bending or ignoring a lot of rules to get it. You can't start with Armor 3 on a cyberlimb, it's above the availability. So, you're *behind* again on soaking.

Third, even though you denigrate two-weapon fire, it's actually better because the RC of both weapons stack. So, if I dual-wield akimbo assault rifles, I have more accuracy than you using a double-long-burst from the same weapon. However, your build can't take proper advantage of that fact. Before we figure in that, you're already about even: you have *one* more dice than the troll, but you also have less recoil comp, possibly a lot less. That results in a wash. Luckily, the comparison was for automatics specialists, who use a lot of dakka: in that case, the troll wins hands-down.

Finally: You're the one who was arguing that humans are clearly superior at everything. However, your best build (when the rules are applied) isn't even significantly better at most things, not even the core things. Overall, they're possibly equal. I don't mind equal, but equal disproves your point. If your human combat decker and my troll combat decker are about the same, then humans aren't better at everything. Heck, they're not even better at off-type things for trolls!

All I need to do is show you that the troll is pretty equivalent. And so far, I have; everything you've done only adds a die here or there, and is still behind in some key spots. You are not proving that humans are an overwhelmingly superior choice, you're proving that if you use some tricks you come out about equal.
RHat
Also, if you want to take dual-fire out of the equation, the troll could just as easily use a Ballistic or Riot shield, and gain a nice chunk of extra armour.

And I assume you're keeping the "one attack action per pass" limitation in mind, Cain?

Also, he's bending no rules aside from perhaps the armour issue. Cyberlimbs do work that way, and it's been made abundantly clear they're intended to work that way.
Jack VII
QUOTE (Cain @ Apr 14 2014, 04:39 PM) *
Second, even though you keep harping on the cyberarm, you're bending or ignoring a lot of rules to get it. You can't start with Armor 3 on a cyberlimb, it's above the availability. So, you're *behind* again on soaking.


It's based on the reading that cyberlimb armor can be taken at Used Grade in a Used limb, thereby reducing the Availability to a point where you can get it at chargen. That reading depends on whether "enhancements" falls under the not very descriptive "Add-Ons" category, since it isn't an accessory.
Cain
QUOTE (RHat @ Apr 14 2014, 03:16 PM) *
Also, if you want to take dual-fire out of the equation, the troll could just as easily use a Ballistic or Riot shield, and gain a nice chunk of extra armour.

And I assume you're keeping the "one attack action per pass" limitation in mind, Cain?

The armor stacking rules confuse me, so I left that idea out. I'm sure it could work, but I'd need to get into it more.

And yes: multi-attacking splits the dice pool, after modifiers. However, each gun's recoil modifier stacks, so f you're firing two long bursts, two different guns with their own RC is the way to go. However, his build can't do that, since multiattacking with separate limbs uses the lower of the stats.

I didn't calculate the numbers for him using only one gun, though. Assuming in both cases, we're using guns with 7 points of recoil comp, the troll has an additional 2 from strength and the human has 1. Since the first bullet is free, the troll can fire 18 rounds without penalty, meaning he has only -2 before splitting. The human can fire 9 rounds without penalty; but since we're talking dual long bursts, he's at *-11*.

We've already postulated that the troll has 15 dice, and the human has 16, before modifiers. After the split, the troll has 6 and 7, the human 2 and 3! Granted, the human has more Edge, but in this case he's going to need it! And even then, that only takes him up to 5 and 5, so the troll still comes out ahead.
Jack VII
I'm still kind of trying to figure out why the shit a hacker/TM would even try to fire two weapons at once. Is there some reason for this? It's a terrible idea.

ETA: I mean, don't get me wrong, it kind of makes sense in light of the title of the thread, but then I'm not sure why you would include any aspects of being a TM/Hacker if the goal is a combat monster.
Cain
QUOTE (Jack VII @ Apr 14 2014, 03:28 PM) *
It's based on the reading that cyberlimb armor can be taken at Used Grade in a Used limb, thereby reducing the Availability to a point where you can get it at chargen. That reading depends on whether "enhancements" falls under the not very descriptive "Add-Ons" category, since it isn't an accessory.

Not to mention that I recall there is a controversy over rather or not you can even take used cyber at chargen. The rules seem to contradict themselves, and I don't see anything in the errata about it.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Cain @ Apr 14 2014, 04:39 PM) *
Nice job, now that you've committed I can point out that you didn't actually buy up any of the secondary decking skills. Assuming you kept the group points where I did, that means you're still identical in Matrix abilities. In *every* Matrix ability, I might add; while you might try and backpedal some, as it stands you don't have a single dice advantage anywhere for your human.


I guess you missed the point where his Electronics Group is a Rating 5 vs. your Rating 2, yes?
So, Hacking Skills at Max (as you indicated) and Electronics at 5 make the human a better hacker, with no contest. The Extra Edge just adds icing to the Cake.
The better Social is also a plus... and even IF the Human equals out in combat, the fact is that the Human is a Better character all around in comparison to the Troll. smile.gif
Cain
QUOTE (Jack VII @ Apr 14 2014, 04:22 PM) *
I'm still kind of trying to figure out why the shit a hacker/TM would even try to fire two weapons at once. Is there some reason for this? It's a terrible idea.

ETA: I mean, don't get me wrong, it kind of makes sense in light of the title of the thread, but then I'm not sure why you would include any aspects of being a TM/Hacker if the goal is a combat monster.

It actually increases your chances of hitting. Long bursts reduce the defense pool by -9; but splitting the dice pool, the troll only loses 8 dice. He actually comes out ahead on the first burst, and even on the second, since there's a cumulative -1 for defending multiple times.

Single shots, multi-attacking doesn't work out, but spray-and-pray can get very dangerous with dual akimbo dikoted weapons. cool.gif
Cain
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Apr 14 2014, 04:29 PM) *
I guess you missed the point where his Electronics Group is a Rating 5 vs. your Rating 2, yes?
So, Hacking Skills at Max (as you indicated) and Electronics at 5 make the human a better hacker, with no contest. The Extra Edge just adds icing to the Cake.
The better Social is also a plus... and even IF the Human equals out in combat, the fact is that the Human is a Better character all around in comparison to the Troll. smile.gif

Except earlier, he talked about raising those skills individually. He just proved he doesn't actually have the points for that, he has to backpedal.

He's also no better socially: he still has a Charisma of 1, the only difference is his build now has two social skills. That's not much of a gain, especially for a non-face.

I might not have mastered the SR5 rules yet (I've been focusing on adepts) but so far, he hasn't shown he can build a superior human, just an equivalent one. There is no indication that humans are vastly superior, either; just that they have some advantages. Which is fine, trolls have advantages too, and sometimes those advantages can show up in off-type roles.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Cain @ Apr 14 2014, 06:37 PM) *
Except earlier, he talked about raising those skills individually. He just proved he doesn't actually have the points for that, he has to backpedal.

He's also no better socially: he still has a Charisma of 1, the only difference is his build now has two social skills. That's not much of a gain, especially for a non-face.

I might not have mastered the SR5 rules yet (I've been focusing on adepts) but so far, he hasn't shown he can build a superior human, just an equivalent one. There is no indication that humans are vastly superior, either; just that they have some advantages. Which is fine, trolls have advantages too, and sometimes those advantages can show up in off-type roles.


Equivalent PLUS Superior Edge IS Superior. smile.gif
Let me see if I can reconstruct him on paper to compare to your 4 skill wonder. smile.gif

EDITED:
[ Spoiler ]
Jaid
actually, i've said at least twice now that i spend my 3 extra group points on the same group. you not reading it doesn't make it not happen.

secondly, missions FAQ (which is the only errata that's come out in english that's worth a damned thing) allows used cyberware at chargen. i've mentioned used cyberware like 3-4 times now. if it bothers you, why is this the first time it's come up? are you even reading what i've been saying?

thirdly, there is no advantage for using two weapons to burst fire. i don't need to burst twice per round. and unless you're using both guns, you're not getting the recoil compensation from both guns. further, if we're both using the same gun, then i also have a cyberarm gyromount that is mounted on my arm, not the gun, and which holds the arm steady. 3 extra points of recoil comp there, which you aren't getting. which is beside the point; the vast vast vast majority of the time, you're going to be better off using a single 6 round burst every round, because you can do that in a simple action, use the remaining action to take aim (oh hello there higher limit and bonus die), and your recoil does not accumulate that way. anything beyond that, you're probably better off using suppressive fire which hits multiple targets, removes dice from your opponents (with no opposed roll to reduce the penalty), and doesn't suffer from recoil at all. you're still fixating on your crazy dual-wielding full-auto burst strategy, which i've specifically disavowed because it doesn't gain you anything except higher costs. i'm not making a dual long burst. i have one gun, which i make a single burst with, because dual full burst is a terrible idea, both in real life and in shadowrun. oh, and also, i have two more agility than you. not one. you have 5, i have 7.

plus of course there's the fact that your troll is apparently walking around everywhere with a pair of ares alphas that have tripods, which might just be slightly challenging to conceal. also, you need ambidexterity, which costs extra karma (albeit not a lot). i guess i can use that to buy etiquette and use the freed-up skill point for something else. maybe i'll specialize that throwing skill into grenades (assuming you specialized your automatics skill when i matched it - based on the fact that you seem to think we're within 1 die of each other, i'm presuming you did. either that or once again you just didn't bother reading what i'm doing with my character and are going to announce that i've somehow not stated that previously when i have).
RHat
I'm curious as to where the comparative Reaction and Intuition for these characters sits...
Jaid
QUOTE (RHat @ Apr 14 2014, 10:35 PM) *
I'm curious as to where the comparative Reaction and Intuition for these characters sits...

same. both of them have 3 in each as i recall. well, 3(5) for reaction, courtesy of wired 2. he hasn't mentioned reaction enhancers, and frankly i don't think either of us has the cash for them without downgrading our deck more than we want to.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012