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RHat
QUOTE (Jaid @ Apr 14 2014, 11:17 PM) *
same. both of them have 3 in each as i recall. well, 3(5) for reaction, courtesy of wired 2. he hasn't mentioned reaction enhancers, and frankly i don't think either of us has the cash for them without downgrading our deck more than we want to.


That being the case, the Troll definitely wins out on defense; the Troll has better Body, a point of natural armour, and can rock more +Armour accessories, which I think have yet to be factored at all.
Jaid
we have the same soak pool, assuming we wear the same suit; i have 2 less body, and 1 less natural armour, but 3 points in my cyberarm. you haven't been following along very closely, have you?

considering that any schmuck can wear any one suit of armour, regardless of armour values, i just need to wear the appropriate suit to match him.
RHat
QUOTE (Jaid @ Apr 14 2014, 11:43 PM) *
we have the same soak pool, assuming we wear the same suit; i have 2 less body, and 1 less natural armour, but 3 points in my cyberarm. you haven't been following along very closely, have you?

considering that any schmuck can wear any one suit of armour, regardless of armour values, i just need to wear the appropriate suit to match him.


I've been following just fine - I'm pointing something out that hasn't been factored. Your Strength (actual, not cyberlimb) is at what, 3? Given that last I checked, the Troll's running Muscle Replacement 2, bare minimum he can carry +7 worth of Armour accessories against your human's +3, giving him the edge on soak and on stun vs physical.

Normal armour isn't limited, but +armour stuff is, and that's going to make a difference here. Combine that with the better condition monitor, and the troll is definitely harder to kill.
Cain
QUOTE
secondly, missions FAQ (which is the only errata that's come out in english that's worth a damned thing) allows used cyberware at chargen. i've mentioned used cyberware like 3-4 times now. if it bothers you, why is this the first time it's come up?

Your last post was the first time you brought up used specifically, and the first time you tried pulling a source quote stunt. You're resorting to questionable rules interpretations to shore up your example. I'll grant that the augmented max rule is really hard to find, but it is the second time you're relying on a hinky rules call.

QUOTE
thirdly, there is no advantage for using two weapons to burst fire. i don't need to burst twice per round. and unless you're using both guns, you're not getting the recoil compensation from both guns. further, if we're both using the same gun, then i also have a cyberarm gyromount that is mounted on my arm, not the gun, and which holds the arm steady. 3 extra points of recoil comp there, which you aren't getting. which is beside the point; the vast vast vast majority of the time, you're going to be better off using a single 6 round burst every round, because you can do that in a simple action, use the remaining action to take aim (oh hello there higher limit and bonus die), and your recoil does not accumulate that way.

There is a huge advantage in bursting twice per round. I've had a very hard time doing one-shot kills in SR5, every time but once, even the weakest mook has taken two or more hits before they go down. So, multiattacking is a huge deal, you can gurantee one takedown or wound two people this way. With the burst rules being what they are, there's almost no chance of someone not getting hit. Additionally, multiattacking doesn't take a complex action; a troll can multiattack with two different guns and still take no recoil, which your human can't do effectively.

You're also ignoring the obvious. If we go twin-guns, you *do* get the RC from both. You take a small penalty, but you can either absorb it or get ambidexterity. Additionally, even if we're only talking one gun, a cyberarm gyromount is not the highest RC-to-mount ratio. You could get a full gyromount for cheaper, or a tripod that deploys wirelessly. Normally, I'd be a little worried about having wifi enabled, but since our guy is a decker too, he can minimize that risk. And yes, while a deployed tripod or full gyromount is obvious, if we're only using one weapon we might as well have one that counts, so we should be discussing LMG's at this point.

But, to sum up: your're unable to use my build to make a superior human combat decker, you're resorting to min/max tricks and hinky rules calls, as well as going for a radically different build approach. And even then, you're not coing out ahead in any primary dice pool except shooting... and there, you're behind by so much recoil copm, it's a wash. The troll is ahead in soaking, and the human is ahead in Edge. You keep saying that humans are vastly superior at everything, but I'm not seeing it. When does the "vastly superior" numbers start showing?
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (RHat @ Apr 14 2014, 10:49 PM) *
I've been following just fine - I'm pointing something out that hasn't been factored. Your Strength (actual, not cyberlimb) is at what, 3? Given that last I checked, the Troll's running Muscle Replacement 2, bare minimum he can carry +7 worth of Armour accessories against your human's +3, giving him the edge on soak and on stun vs physical.

Normal armour isn't limited, but +armour stuff is, and that's going to make a difference here. Combine that with the better condition monitor, and the troll is definitely harder to kill.


Can't really carry a lot of +Armor Stuff, though, because the Troll is using both hands to fire automatics every round. *shrug*
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Cain @ Apr 15 2014, 12:04 AM) *
Your last post was the first time you brought up used specifically, and the first time you tried pulling a source quote stunt. You're resorting to questionable rules interpretations to shore up your example. I'll grant that the augmented max rule is really hard to find, but it is the second time you're relying on a hinky rules call.


There is a huge advantage in bursting twice per round. I've had a very hard time doing one-shot kills in SR5, every time but once, even the weakest mook has taken two or more hits before they go down. So, multiattacking is a huge deal, you can gurantee one takedown or wound two people this way. With the burst rules being what they are, there's almost no chance of someone not getting hit. Additionally, multiattacking doesn't take a complex action; a troll can multiattack with two different guns and still take no recoil, which your human can't do effectively.

You're also ignoring the obvious. If we go twin-guns, you *do* get the RC from both. You take a small penalty, but you can either absorb it or get ambidexterity. Additionally, even if we're only talking one gun, a cyberarm gyromount is not the highest RC-to-mount ratio. You could get a full gyromount for cheaper, or a tripod that deploys wirelessly. Normally, I'd be a little worried about having wifi enabled, but since our guy is a decker too, he can minimize that risk. And yes, while a deployed tripod or full gyromount is obvious, if we're only using one weapon we might as well have one that counts, so we should be discussing LMG's at this point.

But, to sum up: your're unable to use my build to make a superior human combat decker, you're resorting to min/max tricks and hinky rules calls, as well as going for a radically different build approach. And even then, you're not coing out ahead in any primary dice pool except shooting... and there, you're behind by so much recoil copm, it's a wash. The troll is ahead in soaking, and the human is ahead in Edge. You keep saying that humans are vastly superior at everything, but I'm not seeing it. When does the "vastly superior" numbers start showing?


Except in their role, the Human Combat DECKER is better than the Troll, and is about Even in the Combat (Your experiences are obviously not Jaid's Experiences when it comes to lethality). See my Spoiler above, which you apparently missed. smile.gif

Post 147. smile.gif
Jaid
1) there's nothing hinky about it. that's how the rules for cyberarms work. if you feel like this is entirely caused by cyberarms being better, then make a troll that uses it, and i'll make a new non-troll version that does what your troll does... but better. even if i have to restrict myself to having the same attributes, i'm slightly better (very slightly... i'd have +1 edge as a human, for example); the real source of power in my build is that you don't really gain much at all from having a high body and strength, such that i can make a perfectly good combat character with neither of those stats particularly high, unless i'm specifically making a troll melee build or a troll full tank build. which is a large part of why trolls are too expensive for what they get.

2) i can hit twice with one gun. you can hit twice with two guns. there is no dodge penalty per bullet, there is a dodge penalty for what type of burst/shot you're making. if i do a full burst with one gun, i can attack twice for a -9 dice pool on their defence. if you do a full burst with two guns you can... attack twice for a -9 dice pool on their defence. same result. more realistically, since we presumably don't want to have our recoil build up forever, we'll each be doing a full-auto long burst from our guns, in which case i'm still allowed multiple attacks, and you're still allowed multiple attacks.

3) it's a cyberarm gyro mount. it's mounted on the cyberarm, not the gun. it doesn't take any slots at all on the gun, just the cyberarm.

also, on a side note, LMGs kinda suck in SR5. they're not the best gun unless you're trying to use full auto against someone from extreme range. tack on that they require a completely different skill which is generally much less useful than automatics (for shadowrunners, at least; heavy weapons is great for someone that never needs to worry about concealing weapons).
Machiavelli
I am really sorry, i didnīt want you all to start a fighting-and-ranting thread about if trolls in SR5 are better than humans or not. wink.gif
But as we are here anyway, I just wanted to step on the con-troll-side in this discussion. If you compare the benefits a troll offers with the real and potential drawbacks, playing a troll is stupid most of the time. Not because they are ugly (sorry for that), but because they are way too expensive in SR5 compared to what you get out of it. Of course you can make a playable char. with this metatype, but numbers-wise it will not come out better than e.g. a human. It was already close to the edge in SR4, but in SR5 it is much worse and I would play a troll only because of the style.
Lobo0705
Troll - Attributes D
B 5
A 3
R 3
S 5
I 5
C 1
W 3
L 5
Edge 1

Human - Attributes C

B 3
A 3
R 3
S 1
I 5
C 1
W 3
L 5
Edge 5

Skills:

Troll - Skills C
Some Skill Group 2
Hacking - 6
Computer - 6
Computer 6
Automatics - 6
Hardware 2
Software 2


Human - Skills B
Electronics Group (Hardware, Software, Computer) 5
Hacking - 6
Electronic Warfare - 6
Cybercombat - 6
Automatics - 6
12 other skill points

That is all before karma.

Both of you have Resources A, so that is a wash (i.e. you can both purchase the same equipment/ware giving you the same bonuses).
Both of you have Magic E, so that is a wash
Race is already factored into the Edge and stats above.
Both sides still have 25 karma to spend.

So, in general:

1) The human is the better decker - 3 more dice Hardware and Software, plus he has the EW skill.
2) The troll is better at soaking damage - 2 higher body, + 1 for natural armor
3) The troll will be better when firing more than a Long burst.

If you fire one gun, assume for argument's sake an Ares Alpha, which has an integral RC of 2, plus can mount Gas Vent 3, and Shock Pads and a foregrip - that gives you 7 points of RC, plus 1 for the Human and plus 3 for the Troll.
That means the Human can fire a 10 round burst losing 2 dice from his attack pool. The Troll can fire 10 rounds with no penalty.

If you fire two guns, (both Ares Alphas), the troll can fire 20 rounds and have a total RC of 15 (each Ares Alpha adds 6, plus his 3 for strength) for a -5 dice pool penalty, while the human would only have a RC of 13 (each Ares Alpha adds 6, plus his 3 for strength)

In this case, the Foregrip is meaningless, as you can't use it (since both hands are otherwise occupied) - so the troll has a 3 dice pool advantage.

4) When firing ANYTHING else, i.e. single shot, short burst, long burst, they are identical (since the AR compensates for all the rounds).

(As an aside, unless you are playing a very different game than I am, the number of times you can be walking around firing multiple assault rifles is very small - then again, I don't play Pink Mohawk.)

5) The Troll's physical limit is MUCH better - a 6 instead of a 3 - but given his complete lack of skills, he isn't going to hit that number very often anyway.

So, to sum up:

1) The troll is better at the combat part of the Combat Decker - in that he can soak about one more box of damage (on average) and has a higher condition monitor (by 1). In those instances where you are firing full auto, the troll also is better by 2 or 3 dice.

2) The human is better at the decking part of the Combat Decker - in that he has a 3 dice pool advantage Hardware and Software, PLUS Electronic Warfare 6 - while giving up 1 die in computers.

3) The human is better rounded, in that he will have 6 more skill points than the troll (nominally he has 12, but the troll has 2 points in 3 different skills from his skill group)

4) The human has the ability to either recover from a disastrous roll (or push the limits and do something spectacular) 5 times, as opposed to the troll's once.


Is the human "vastly superior" - no. Is it superior? Yes, in that while the 3 extra points of soak and the 3 higher physical limit is nice, it doesn't make up for the 8 extra skill points (in general) and the 9 extra skill points (in the Electronics Group), and the 4 points of Edge.

That's my 2 cents, anyway.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
Lobo0705 - The Human has 5 Edge - He starts with 2, and then adds 3 for Racial Pick (+3 Special Attributes). smile.gif
Awesome Comparison...
Lobo0705
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Apr 15 2014, 11:01 AM) *
Lobo0705 - The Human has 5 Edge - He starts with 2, and then adds 3 for Racial Pick (+3 Special Attributes). smile.gif
Awesome Comparison...


Whoops smile.gif

Fixed - thanks!
Sponge
Computers is part of the Electronics skill group, you can't have the skill group at 2 (or 5) and the skill at 6 as well. So either the Troll is good at Computers and loses a couple of secondary Decking skills (can't default on Hardware or Software), or keeps those secondary skills and is crappy at Computers (which is very important for Deckers). The Human has enough spare skill & skill group points to be good at both, AND pick up EW (which is also a pretty important Decking skill, used for Control Device, Hide, Jam, and Snoop).
Lobo0705
QUOTE (Sponge @ Apr 15 2014, 12:02 PM) *
Computers is part of the Electronics skill group, you can't have the skill group at 2 (or 5) and the skill at 6 as well. So either the Troll is good at Computers and loses a couple of secondary Decking skills (can't default on Hardware or Software), or keeps those secondary skills and is crappy at Computers (which is very important for Deckers). The Human has enough spare skill & skill group points to be good at both, AND pick up EW (which is also a pretty important Decking skill, used for Control Device, Hide, Jam, and Snoop).



Thanks Sponge - updated comparison.
Cain
Jaid: your second hinky rules call is that the rules clearly say you can't start with Used cyber. I'm aware that the rule is contradicted, but that means you're cherrypicking rules to suit you. You're trying to take advantage of a grey area.

2: there's a cumulative defense penalty. Each additional attack suffers a -1 defense. So, multiple attacks are progressively harder to defend against.

3. A gyromount uses the underbarrel slot on a gun. It doesn't matter if its a cyber gyro or a full one, if you have something else in that slot you can't use them. What does matter is that the cyber gyro isn't the most RC you can fit into that slot.

Lobo: I appreciate your analysis. I think its enough to prove that trolls aren't useless, outside of typecasting. They're comparable characters, while the human has some advantages in flexibility, the troll has better specialties. Depending on the game you're playing and what the player wants, either is a good choice.
Stahlseele
Err . . what?
Since when does a CYBER GYRO USE UP SPACE ON A WEAPON? O.o
Especially since the Cyber Gyro is both depicted and described as moving parts coming out of your wrists and guns usually being held not at the wrist but with the barrel way in front of the knuckles where the under barrel slot will reside?
X-Kalibur
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Apr 15 2014, 01:44 PM) *
Err . . what?
Since when does a CYBER GYRO USE UP SPACE ON A WEAPON? O.o
Especially since the Cyber Gyro is both depicted and described as moving parts coming out of your wrists and guns usually being held not at the wrist but with the barrel way in front of the knuckles where the under barrel slot will reside?


This precisely, the cyber gyromount takes up no weapon slots. Besides, what if the gyro is on your trigger hand, how does it use up the under barrel location then?
Stahlseele
QUOTE (X-Kalibur @ Apr 15 2014, 11:47 PM) *
This precisely, the cyber gyromount takes up no weapon slots. Besides, what if the gyro is on your trigger hand, how does it use up the under barrel location then?

@Cain
Didn't we JUST complain somewhere about the line in the concealed holster that says it's not taking up space on the weapon?
And now you want to argue that a cyber gyro does? seriously?
Jaid
we're making the same number of attacks. i can use multiple attacks with full auto and one gun, just like you can with double full auto and two guns. there is no difference. if i make 2 attacks, i split my dice pool in two. if you make two attacks, you also split your dice pool in two, regardless of how many guns either of us are using. the only difference is that for certain guns, you cannot take the multiple attack action without having two (for example, if you are using SA mode).

also, the human loses less (or alternately pays less) for using a cyberarm, which is a pretty strong advantage for a build like this (by which i mean, a character concept where attributes are already spread very thin). of course, you have to give up on the double assault rifle idea... but then, i consider that a bonus, not a drawback.
Lobo0705
QUOTE (Jaid @ Apr 15 2014, 05:29 PM) *
we're making the same number of attacks. i can use multiple attacks with full auto and one gun, just like you can with double full auto and two guns. there is no difference. if i make 2 attacks, i split my dice pool in two. if you make two attacks, you also split your dice pool in two, regardless of how many guns either of us are using. the only difference is that for certain guns, you cannot take the multiple attack action without having two (for example, if you are using SA mode).

also, the human loses less (or alternately pays less) for using a cyberarm, which is a pretty strong advantage for a build like this (by which i mean, a character concept where attributes are already spread very thin). of course, you have to give up on the double assault rifle idea... but then, i consider that a bonus, not a drawback.


Jaid,

I think you are misunderstanding what Cain is talking about with multiple attacks.

Assume I have one assault rifle, and there is one target. Assume that target has a Reaction of 5 and an Intuition of 5.

I can use the Full Auto Complex Action to fire Full Auto at them. Assume a pool of 18, and I have no modifiers other than recoil. With the human build, 10 bullets gives you a -2 penalty.

Therefore I roll 16 dice and the target only gets 1 die to dodge (since they take a -9 defense test modifier). Assume I get 5 hits to their 0, they each have to resist a 15 DV wound.

What Cain is saying is that instead of doing that, he can use two assault rifles - assume he has the same target as above. He can fire 20 rounds, taking a 5 die modifier (barring other strength increases). This reduces his die pool from 18 to 13, and he then splits it to 7 and 6 dice respectively. The target only gets 1 die to dodge the 1st attack (10 pool, -9 for full auto), and 0 dice to dodge the 2nd attack (10 pool, -9 for full auto, -1 for 2nd attack dodged). Assume that the troll got 2 hits on each of his attacks to 0 on each of the 2 defense tests, and now the target has to resist TWO 12 DV wounds - much more lethal than just the one assault rifle full auto.

What you can't do, is use one assault rifle to make multiple attacks against the same target.
Jaid
and what i'm saying, is that all the rules for using off-hand weapons refer you to the exact same rule as the rules for making multiple attacks with a long burst or full auto burst. it isn't clear if you can attack the same target or not with a multiple attacks action, but whether you have one gun or ten guns, you are *still* using the multiple attacks action.

so either the multiple attacks action does allow you to attack the same target, or it doesn't. it really doesn't matter which it is. either way, it's the same.
Lobo0705
QUOTE (Jaid @ Apr 15 2014, 07:32 PM) *
and what i'm saying, is that all the rules for using off-hand weapons refer you to the exact same rule as the rules for making multiple attacks with a long burst or full auto burst. it isn't clear if you can attack the same target or not with a multiple attacks action, but whether you have one gun or ten guns, you are *still* using the multiple attacks action.

so either the multiple attacks action does allow you to attack the same target, or it doesn't. it really doesn't matter which it is. either way, it's the same.


With respect, it isn't.

You can use two pistols or SMGs or assault rifles to fire two times at the same target. Doing so not only splits your dice pools, but it doubles the recoil, doubles the ammo consumption, and gives you the offhand penalty (unless you've incurred the cost of buying the ambidextrous penalty).

You are trying to say that by using 1 weapon, you can use the multi-attack free action to do the same thing, but using half the ammo, half the recoil, and no offhand penalty? That is incorrect.

You can use one weapon and the multiple attacks free action to attack two targets - and all you do is split your dice pools - and in that respect, it is better than using 2 weapons to do so, because you don't take any of the above modifiers.

If you want my unsolicited opinion, this is where the system is really wacky, in that if I attack 1 target with 10 bullets, he takes a -9 modifier. If I attack 2 targets with those same 10 bullets (i.e. half the amount of lead for him to dodge) he still takes that same -9 modifier. If I attack 3 targets, with that same 10 bullets, they take that same -9 modifier.

ETA - I'll grant you that the Multiple Attack section is poorly written - but the one thing that is fairly concrete is that you cant use one gun to split up a burst as multiple attacks against one target. (You can go to the main rules forum and look up the Multiple Attacks thread).

ETTA:

Here is the link

Relevant quotes are:

Rhat:
"For reference: You're completely mistaken. The rules flat out do not permit a single firearm to be used to attack the same target twice."

Michael Chandra:
"Neryll, splitting the burst is completely different from attacking someone twice with the same attack. A split burst is you spreading the bullets far enough that they're spread out over multiple enemies. You cannot in any way target the same person twice with the same burst. That wouldn't be a wide burst anymore. It's completely different from firing two separate guns at the same person."
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Lobo0705 @ Apr 15 2014, 04:44 PM) *
Jaid,

I think you are misunderstanding what Cain is talking about with multiple attacks.

Assume I have one assault rifle, and there is one target. Assume that target has a Reaction of 5 and an Intuition of 5.

I can use the Full Auto Complex Action to fire Full Auto at them. Assume a pool of 18, and I have no modifiers other than recoil. With the human build, 10 bullets gives you a -2 penalty.

Therefore I roll 16 dice and the target only gets 1 die to dodge (since they take a -9 defense test modifier). Assume I get 5 hits to their 0, they each have to resist a 15 DV wound.

What Cain is saying is that instead of doing that, he can use two assault rifles - assume he has the same target as above. He can fire 20 rounds, taking a 5 die modifier (barring other strength increases). This reduces his die pool from 18 to 13, and he then splits it to 7 and 6 dice respectively. The target only gets 1 die to dodge the 1st attack (10 pool, -9 for full auto), and 0 dice to dodge the 2nd attack (10 pool, -9 for full auto, -1 for 2nd attack dodged). Assume that the troll got 2 hits on each of his attacks to 0 on each of the 2 defense tests, and now the target has to resist TWO 12 DV wounds - much more lethal than just the one assault rifle full auto.

What you can't do, is use one assault rifle to make multiple attacks against the same target.


One 15 DV wound is likely just as deadly as two 12DV wounds (Your assumption uses standard Ammunition, I expect with no deviance for better ammunition). Dead is still Dead. *shrug*
Cain
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Apr 15 2014, 05:06 PM) *
One 15 DV wound is likely just as deadly as two 12DV wounds (Your assumption uses standard Ammunition, I expect with no deviance for better ammunition). Dead is still Dead. *shrug*

Because the game resolves each attack in sequence, if you drop the first target you can then switch your second attack to a different target. Two weapons gives you the flexibility to choose; one weapon means you must attack different targets.
Lobo0705
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Apr 15 2014, 09:06 PM) *
One 15 DV wound is likely just as deadly as two 12DV wounds (Your assumption uses standard Ammunition, I expect with no deviance for better ammunition). Dead is still Dead. *shrug*


15 DV against a mook is fatal, yes. Against a tougher opponent, the two 12 DV is a much surer method.

Cain
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Apr 15 2014, 01:44 PM) *
Err . . what?
Since when does a CYBER GYRO USE UP SPACE ON A WEAPON? O.o
Especially since the Cyber Gyro is both depicted and described as moving parts coming out of your wrists and guns usually being held not at the wrist but with the barrel way in front of the knuckles where the under barrel slot will reside?

I was under the impression that a weapon with an under-barrel item couldn't be fitted onto a gyro mount. Looking, closer, I may have been mistaken about that.

However... not only does the cyberarm gyro require a Simple action to deploy, it takes a Simple action to mount a gun into it, just like a regular gyro mount. You can't draw, deploy, mount, and fire in the same action. You also can't Take Aim, something Jaid said would be an advantage for a human. So, the action economy favors the troll, in this case.
Jaid
take aim isn't an advantage for the human. it's an advantage for whoever isn't stupid enough to use an attack method that you can only use for one IP before the penalties render it completely and utterly ineffective (and even then only if you can stack those recoil modifiers to a pretty ridiculous point).

and you don't need to deploy a cyberarm gyro to the weapon at all (you will have to turn it on once, ideally before the combat starts but not necessarily). it has nothing to do with what mounts a gun has. it's your arm. the connection is your hand, which you use to hold the gun. you never mount the gun to the cyberarm gyro, because the gyro is already mounted to the arm, which you use to make the attack.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Cain @ Apr 15 2014, 06:56 PM) *
I was under the impression that a weapon with an under-barrel item couldn't be fitted onto a gyro mount. Looking, closer, I may have been mistaken about that.

However... not only does the cyberarm gyro require a Simple action to deploy, it takes a Simple action to mount a gun into it, just like a regular gyro mount. You can't draw, deploy, mount, and fire in the same action. You also can't Take Aim, something Jaid said would be an advantage for a human. So, the action economy favors the troll, in this case.


I am not sure where you are getting the idea that a Gun needs to be mounted into a Cyberarm Gyromount. It is an Arm thing, not a weapon thing. The gun goes in the hand. The cyberarm gyromount stabilizes the hand itself. Which benefits the Gun IN the hand.

EDIT: Hmmm... Jaid beat me to it. frown.gif
Cain
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Apr 15 2014, 07:07 PM) *
I am not sure where you are getting the idea that a Gun needs to be mounted into a Cyberarm Gyromount. It is an Arm thing, not a weapon thing. The gun goes in the hand. The cyberarm gyromount stabilizes the hand itself. Which benefits the Gun IN the hand.

EDIT: Hmmm... Jaid beat me to it. frown.gif

It says it works just like a regular gyro, except it provides 3 points of RC instead of 6. A regular gyro says you need to take a simple action to mount a gun into it. So, because they're the same, it takes a simple action to mount a gun into a cyber gyro. nyahnyah.gif

QUOTE
take aim isn't an advantage for the human. it's an advantage for whoever isn't stupid enough to use an attack method that you can only use for one IP before the penalties render it completely and utterly ineffective (and even then only if you can stack those recoil modifiers to a pretty ridiculous point).

Given the size of defense pools in SR5, full-auto looks like a very effective tactic. Multiattacking is confusing, but from what I've seen, it's very effective as ell. Combining the two just makes things even deadlier. wink.gif

Also... looking at the errata, it appears that if you take a Simple action, you can reset your recoil. Since multiattacking is a free action, you can unload fully with both guns in the first phase, then use a simple action in the second phase to reset and *still* get to multiattack. Going full rock and roll would take a bit more work, but it's certainly possible.
RHat
Complex Action Full-Auto has a sustainability issue, Cain - progressive recoil runs you into problems. With the errata that took the teeth out of that mechanic, though, you're fine for simple action full-auto.

I really wish it had errata'd to require a full pass to clear recoil, personally...
Jaid
simple action full auto is 6 rounds, and yes, is something you can do constantly... as i've been mentioning for the past few pages. i'm a bit confused why you think this is something new and unusual.

of course, it also has a greatly reduced recoil penalty, such that neither build is exactly going to be suffering massively from recoil. and it also isn't your 10-round burst from two guns situation.

you can use the 10-round burst *once* before you run into problems. 6-round bursts can be done every round, and make a much more plausible point of comparison for anyone that hasn't somehow obtained unlimited (or effectively unlimited) recoil compensation.

as to the gyromount, what it says is that the *effects* are identical. not the deployment rules. just the effects.
Umidori
I second that point about the gryomount - your cyberarm is stabilizing itself when you activate it, so anything being held by that arm is now being held by a stabilized arm. There's no need to "mount" the weapon, because it's in your hand.

The only reason you have to mount a weapon in an external gyromount is that the device needs a way to "grip" the weapon, since your natural arm isn't part of the stabilizing rig. Without being attached to the stabilized "arm" of the external gyromount, the gun isn't stabilized.

~Umi
Cain
QUOTE (Jaid @ Apr 15 2014, 10:05 PM) *
simple action full auto is 6 rounds, and yes, is something you can do constantly... as i've been mentioning for the past few pages. i'm a bit confused why you think this is something new and unusual.

of course, it also has a greatly reduced recoil penalty, such that neither build is exactly going to be suffering massively from recoil. and it also isn't your 10-round burst from two guns situation.

you can use the 10-round burst *once* before you run into problems. 6-round bursts can be done every round, and make a much more plausible point of comparison for anyone that hasn't somehow obtained unlimited (or effectively unlimited) recoil compensation.

as to the gyromount, what it says is that the *effects* are identical. not the deployment rules. just the effects.

You can do the double full-auto once before recoil starts piling on, but since it's your first attack, it might also be the last attack of the combat. As Lobo pointed out, it has the potential to mow down lots of opponents, even at a substantial multiattack penalty. Yes, you can go suppressive fire instead; but the advantage there is that it covers an unlimited number of enemies. If you're only talking one to three, you might be better off with a multiattack. After the first attack, if there's anybody left, then you can go to 6-round bursts.

As far as the gyro goes: while I would probably rule that it works that way in a home game, the RAW does indicate that you have to mount it first. Since you made such a big deal about abiding by the letter of the rules, I feel it's fair to return the favor. Strictly speaking, you need to spend actions to deploy, mount, and fire the weapon; but by the time you've done that, the troll will have put 20 rounds into your human. nyahnyah.gif
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Cain @ Apr 15 2014, 09:54 PM) *
It says it works just like a regular gyro, except it provides 3 points of RC instead of 6. A regular gyro says you need to take a simple action to mount a gun into it. So, because they're the same, it takes a simple action to mount a gun into a cyber gyro. nyahnyah.gif


Its EFFECTS work like a Standard Gyromount in that it reduces Recoil by 3 points, and can negate movement penalties. That is all. You do not have to "Mount" a gun in the mount itself. :wobble"
*shakes head*

The Cyberarm Gyromount has been a thing for at least 3 editions and it has worked the same in all of those editions.
Cain
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Apr 16 2014, 05:16 AM) *
Its EFFECTS work like a Standard Gyromount in that it reduces Recoil by 3 points, and can negate movement penalties. That is all. You do not have to "Mount" a gun in the mount itself. :wobble"
*shakes head*

The Cyberarm Gyromount has been a thing for at least 3 editions and it has worked the same in all of those editions.

Actually, no. The cyberarm gyro didn't negate movement penalties when it first came out. Regular gyros did, but they originally imposed movement penalties of their own. I don't think it negated movement penalties in SR4.5 either. In both cases, they only were gyro mounts in name, they didn't actually share the characteristics of the full gyro. In SR5, it apparently does: it negates movement penalties and follows all the standard gyro mount rules, which is unique to this edition. Unfortunately, that includes the need to mount it. nyahnyah.gif

Like I said, in a real game I probably wouldn't actually enforce that rule. But for purposes of RAW, it's entertaining to point it out.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Cain @ Apr 16 2014, 08:21 AM) *
Actually, no. The cyberarm gyro didn't negate movement penalties when it first came out. Regular gyros did, but they originally imposed movement penalties of their own. I don't think it negated movement penalties in SR4.5 either. In both cases, they only were gyro mounts in name, they didn't actually share the characteristics of the full gyro. In SR5, it apparently does: it negates movement penalties and follows all the standard gyro mount rules, which is unique to this edition. Unfortunately, that includes the need to mount it. nyahnyah.gif

Like I said, in a real game I probably wouldn't actually enforce that rule. But for purposes of RAW, it's entertaining to point it out.


I stand corrected. smile.gif
Jaid
QUOTE (Cain @ Apr 16 2014, 07:42 AM) *
You can do the double full-auto once before recoil starts piling on, but since it's your first attack, it might also be the last attack of the combat. As Lobo pointed out, it has the potential to mow down lots of opponents, even at a substantial multiattack penalty. Yes, you can go suppressive fire instead; but the advantage there is that it covers an unlimited number of enemies. If you're only talking one to three, you might be better off with a multiattack. After the first attack, if there's anybody left, then you can go to 6-round bursts.

As far as the gyro goes: while I would probably rule that it works that way in a home game, the RAW does indicate that you have to mount it first. Since you made such a big deal about abiding by the letter of the rules, I feel it's fair to return the favor. Strictly speaking, you need to spend actions to deploy, mount, and fire the weapon; but by the time you've done that, the troll will have put 20 rounds into your human. nyahnyah.gif


the RAW doesn't say anything about the gyromount needing to be attached to the gun. it says it must be activated, and it says that the effects of the gyromount are identical to the harness (apart from the amount of RC it gives). the rules for the cyberarm gyromount describe how to use it, and mounting the gun on it is not part of that description, nor is it even hinted at.

and if your double full-auto both starts and ends the fight, there wasn't really much of a fight to begin with. they likely weren't worth the nuyen it just cost you to do your double burst.
Cain
QUOTE (Jaid @ Apr 16 2014, 10:55 AM) *
the RAW doesn't say anything about the gyromount needing to be attached to the gun. it says it must be activated, and it says that the effects of the gyromount are identical to the harness (apart from the amount of RC it gives).

Exactly. And the rules for the regular gyro say you need to spend an action mounting the gun into it. Since it uses the same rules, technically you do need to take an action to mount it.

Again, I'll probably ignore that rule in practice; but SR5 is full of silly little rules that complicate things. In this case, however, the troll has an advantage in action economy.
Jaid
the rules for the regular gyro can say whatever they want about needing to mount the gun on it. that's not the effect of the gyro, and the only thing that is identical is the effect. everything else works as described in the cyberarm gyro listing.
Cain
QUOTE (Jaid @ Apr 16 2014, 06:30 PM) *
the rules for the regular gyro can say whatever they want about needing to mount the gun on it. that's not the effect of the gyro, and the only thing that is identical is the effect. everything else works as described in the cyberarm gyro listing.

You're welcome to use whatever house rules you like in your games. However, it is in the RAW. I can't see any benefit in being a stickler for this one, but technically you'll need to spend a whole pass prepping your weapon. Since the troll can unload two full bursts in that time, and short bursts thereafter, all without significant recoil... well, the advantage remains in the hands of the troll.
Umidori
Cain, I just want to let you know that you're arguing for a stupid interpretation.

Please note, it's not that I'm trying to be insulting, I mean it's literally a nonsensical interpretation that is just dumb. You're essentially arguing that the rule as written is intended to defy logic and physics - that the game devs knowingly chose to make the cyberarm gyromount operate in an absurd manner.

A normal gyromount is an external system that you strap yourself into, which possesses a special articulated arm. That arm has gyroscopic stabilizers inside it, and when those are turned on, the arm becomes stabilized. If you hold the gun you want to stabilize in your hand, it doesn't receive any stabilization, because the stabilizers aren't in your arm, they're in the gyromount's arm.

In order for the gun to be stabilized, it has to be connected to the stabilized articulated arm that the rig possesses. Which is why you need to take an action to mount the weapon onto that stabilized articulated arm.

With a cyberarm gyromount, the gyroscopic stabilizers are inside your cyberarm. When you activate the system, your entire cyberarm becomes stabilized. If you are holding the weapon in your stabilized cyberarm, the weapon is stabilized. You don't have to mount it, because it already is "mounted".

Look at it another way. We have the external articulated arm, and we mount a gun to it, but we leave the stabilization off. If we fire that gun from that mounted position in that external arm without stabilization, it suffers full recoil. If we turn the stabilization on, the arm becomes stabilized, as does the gun that it is "holding" in the "hand" of its mount, and the recoil gets reduced.

Take that same articulated arm. Now graft it onto a human being in place of their biological arm. Turn off the stabilization, and have them control it as a cyberlimb. When they shoot, their arm isn't stabilized, and it doesn't get recoil compensation. Turn the stabilizers on, and the arm is stabilized, and the weapon that is "mounted" in the arm's hand "mount" becomes stabilized too, and you get recoil compensation.

The only reason a weapon has to be mounted to an external gyromount is that you can't gyroscopically stabilize your biological arm - it isn't a rigid structure. Hence, you need to add an external arm which you can stabilize, so that it can hold the gun for you.

If you have a cyberarm, you don't have to do that. You can just stabilize the arm itself, because it is a rigid structure.

~Umi
ikarinokami
trolls are pretty terrible for anything except for melee bricks. Edge is incredible in this edition and only made more so by run and gun. trolls flat out cost too much. in pretty much every circumstances you are better off being an ork. Im not sure anyone should be geeking a mage first, if the mage is troll, low drain dice and limited edge really limits their capacity at chargen.
Machiavelli
Correct. And thank you for coming back to the topic.^^
Jaid
QUOTE (Cain @ Apr 16 2014, 10:51 PM) *
You're welcome to use whatever house rules you like in your games. However, it is in the RAW. I can't see any benefit in being a stickler for this one, but technically you'll need to spend a whole pass prepping your weapon. Since the troll can unload two full bursts in that time, and short bursts thereafter, all without significant recoil... well, the advantage remains in the hands of the troll.


no, it isn't in the RAW. the only rule from the regular gyromount referenced by the cyberarm gyromount is the effects of it. are you trying to argue that the effect of the gyromount is that you have to spend actions mounting or removing a gun from it? because to me (and probably a large portion of the rest of the world, though i admittedly have not surveyed them), the effect of a gyromount is to compensate for recoil and movement modifiers.

if there is no rule that says you need to mount a gun to your cyberarm gyromount, and no such rule is referenced within the cyberarm gyromount, then it is impossible for the Rules As Written to include that. by definition the Rules As Written cannot include rules that are not written. if it's not in the book, it's not RAW, and there is nothing in the book that tells me i need to mount any guns on the cyberarm gyromount. instead, the cyberarm gyromount contains instructions for how to use it. even if there was some *general* text regarding gyromounts as an overall category (which there isn't, there are 2 separate entries for 2 separate devices that both happen to by gyromounts), it would be overridden by any specific rules in the cyberarm gyromount entry.
Machiavelli
What does the old cyberware-explanation say about this? In SR3 (i think it was fields of fire???) the even had a picture.
Cain
QUOTE
With a cyberarm gyromount, the gyroscopic stabilizers are inside your cyberarm. When you activate the system, your entire cyberarm becomes stabilized. If you are holding the weapon in your stabilized cyberarm, the weapon is stabilized. You don't have to mount it, because it already is "mounted".

It is a silly argument, but you are wrong on this one. The description is very clear that when you deploy the system, counterweights and gizmos actually pop out of your arm to stabilize the gun. What's more, fluff-wise, it can't actually stabilize your arm, because if you did, you wouldn't be able to move it either. In real life, gyros prevent movement in any direction. If you ever played with gyros as a kid, you'd see that a spinning gyro is like a Weeble: it wobbles, but it doesn't fall down. While it's in motion, it's really hard to move. Originally, Shadowrun gyro mounts included this in the rules; wearing an activated gyro mount hurt your ability to dodge and maneuver. It proved to be an unpopular rule, so it was quietly dropped.

So, if we were at all concerned with real world physics (as opposed to fun game mechanics) a gyro in your arm should only stabilize the gun attached to it. If it actually affected the arm, you couldn't target as effectively with it, as the gyro would try to compensate for that movement as well. Sticking it solely on the gun would mean you can still aim, though.
Machiavelli
I think this is a classic example for common sense. The cyberarm gyromount is described as a simple recoil compensation that works on the same principle than the gyromount-harness. I think "gripping" the gun and activating the gyromount, is sufficient to "mount" the gyroscope. Of course, if you are nitpicking, the phrase "works like the gyromount-harness" could be interpreted that "mounting" is somewhat more difficult, but it makes SO much no sense, that you donīt have to fight about it. You both are correct IMHO. The rules say it this way, the common sense says the RAW is again for the rear end. So the GM decides and if he does it the wrong way, he will be banned away from the pizza-delivery. wink.gif
Cain
QUOTE (Machiavelli @ Apr 17 2014, 03:35 AM) *
I think this is a classic example for common sense. The cyberarm gyromount is described as a simple recoil compensation that works on the same principle than the gyromount-harness. I think "gripping" the gun and activating the gyromount, is sufficient to "mount" the gyroscope. Of course, if you are nitpicking, the phrase "works like the gyromount-harness" could be interpreted that "mounting" is somewhat more difficult, but it makes SO much no sense, that you donīt have to fight about it. You both are correct IMHO. The rules say it this way, the common sense says the RAW is again for the rear end. So the GM decides and if he does it the wrong way, he will be banned away from the pizza-delivery. wink.gif

Oh, don't get me wrong. In an actual game, I would never *enforce* this rule. But it is there.

I'm not impressed with the rules writing in SR5; there's many places where the rules are obscure, vague, and in one or two cases blatantly contradictory. This is one of the sillier examples, but since we're talking RAW, we may as well point it out.

Admittedly, the only reason I keep harping on this is because Jaid is insisting on using the letter of the law when it helps his case, but overlooks the rules that don't help him. I mean, I can see how you'd miss the correct augmented max rule, it's insanely hard to find. But then trying to work around it with a cyberarm, by saying that its attributes don't count as yours? That's kinda hinky, in my opinion. And it's not his fault that the rules contradict themselves on used cyber at character creation, and the fact that the errata doesn't address it makes things worse. But using used cyber in this discussion seems like dirty pool.

Anyway, by tradition, Dumpshock rules debates require strict adherence to the RAW. Nobody but Toturi actually cares about that outside of these debates, but it is a convention here. I admit I don't know SR5 as well as others, but I learn by paying attention. If we go off into house rules and common sense, how am I going to learn anything? nyahnyah.gif
Machiavelli
I absolutely agree with you about that. The RAW can be quite difficult, especially if you look at SR5. I generally avoid strict RAW-discussions, because in most of the rules i am really not that interested, that i would try to become an expert in them. I e.g. like magic and this is the field i really know a lot about, but if i donīt think that a specific fiel (in SR5 it was alchemy) makes sense for my style of gaming, i simply skip them. So you could tell me a lot of s***t about alchemy, I would need to re-read the rules to become able to discuss with you about it. ^^
Umidori
QUOTE (Cain @ Apr 17 2014, 03:40 AM) *
It is a silly argument, but you are wrong on this one. The description is very clear that when you deploy the system, counterweights and gizmos actually pop out of your arm to stabilize the gun. What's more, fluff-wise, it can't actually stabilize your arm, because if you did, you wouldn't be able to move it either. In real life, gyros prevent movement in any direction. If you ever played with gyros as a kid, you'd see that a spinning gyro is like a Weeble: it wobbles, but it doesn't fall down. While it's in motion, it's really hard to move. Originally, Shadowrun gyro mounts included this in the rules; wearing an activated gyro mount hurt your ability to dodge and maneuver. It proved to be an unpopular rule, so it was quietly dropped.

It's stunning how far off the mark you are with this stuff. Seriously, go study the physics involved until you have a proper grasp of what actually goes on with this sort of system.

The description of a counterweight popping out of your arm is describing how the weight is being moved to a position where it actually operates as a counterweight. This is basic physics at work - it is why a basic steadicam works. By placing a weight at a position opposite of the center of balance of an otherwise lopsided system, you introduce a counteracting inertial resistance that shifts the balancing point back toward the center of the lever. A counterweight is only a counterweight if it is positioned opposite to - or counter to - the opposing weight you wish to stablize the motion of.

That's all just the counterweight, though. The actual gyroscopes in your cyberarm do not move - why would they? Their operation isn't reliant on leverage like a counterweight is.

Gyro-stabilization doesn't "lock" an arm from moving, it adds extra dampening of any movements the arm might make, via gyroscopic precession. The end result is that external forces acting on the arm aren't as severe, and are distributed more evenly. The net effect is that recoil from a gun stabilized with gyroscopic systems is resisted by the inertia of the gyrocopes and dispersed smoothly, changing the "push" of the recoil on the arm into an even backwards motion instead of sharp "jumps" which misalign the barrel.

You can still move the arm with the proper amount of force, the gyroscopes simply make that movement smooth and slow. And if you couldn't move the arm when stabilized, how the FRAG would an external arm work? If stabilizing your cyberarm made you unable to aim a weapon the arm is holding, then stabilizing an external arm would likewise make you unable to aim a weapon mounted on that arm!

You should read up on how things like articulated arms operate. Although the articulated arm in this example isn't stabilized by gyroscopes per se, the underlying principles are exactly the same. An external weapon gyromount is essentially an advanced steadicam rig, but with a gun in the place of the camera. It doesn't matter if you stabilize the articulated arm with gyroscopes, or with hinges and springs, the important factor is that you're placing your camera (or gun) onto an arm that has been motion dampened. (Again - not motion "locked", merely dampened.)

In the case of a cyberarm, everything that is stabilizing the cyberarm is inside of it with the single exception of the counterweight (which only becomes a counterweight when it is deployed outside of the cyberarm).

~Umi
Jaid
ummm.... you're accusing me of arguing for the cyberarm being able to exceed the augmented maximum rule you found?

seriously, every time i mentioned it, i noted that it had been said by someone that it was exempt to augmented maximums... but that i did not see any proof to back up that statement, so i was disregarding it. i have specifically said, *several times* in fact, that i *don't* think it's stated anywhere, though i did give some speculation as to why they might have thought that way.

the only thing about cyberlimbs that you seem to think is wrong is that you can customize them based on your racial maximums, not your natural attribute, and that isn't a screwy or questionable interpretation. it's very clearly stated in the rules:

"If either of your limb’s attributes
are increased beyond your natural maximum for
that attribute, you can’t use the cyberlimb (so don’t overdo
it), but you can still add cyberlimb enhancements."

and once again, the only place the cyberarm gyromount even references the standard gyro stabilization system is:

"The effects are identical to a gyro stabilization
system (p. 432), only with Rating 3 (this effect is not
cumulative with a worn gyro stabilization system)."

so once again, unless you're trying to argue that the effect of a gyro stabilization system is to occupy the under accessory slot on your gun, and to take actions to mount or remove a gun from it, the RAW never even hints at needing to mount a gun on your cyberarm gyro mount.
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