So basically, y'all are trying to take "something that fucks everyone" and turn it into "awesome for you, but still fucks everyone else"?

you say that as if that's a bad thing to do . .

That's the pro argument, yes.

Just checking. I had a feeling with all the semantic wankery and "Well, it doesn't say I can't..." horseshit being tossed around, it was someone trying to take a full-on negative trait and use it as a rape stick for everyone else because, well...fuck them.

To be fair, they are not trying to say they get the goodies for free, they are trying to establish a chain of circumstances/requirements/expenditures that would alter the situation.

The main arguing, outside of those about game balance, is whether the suggested steps would provide the effect they are desiring.

If "the effect they are desiring" is to remove the Astral Hazing, then I would say that is potentially possible. Pay off the negative trait with twice as much karma and they'd be good with good roleplaying and some serious long-term legwork. If they want to mage-screw everyone else and still be able to cast their own magic, have fun trying to convince a mage group into helping you initiate with an active magic of maybe one or two and screwing their magic every time you're around them.

Of course, anything is possible with the right leverage (aka we'll help, but we're going to make sure that you're our bitch until your "debt is paid in full")...

While there may be nothing against it in the RAW, I have a problem picturing a character improving his Magic rating, and even initiating, while at a point where his own astral hazing gives him an effective Magic of zero. How do you improve something you can't even use?

Persons take up physical space. They, by exact definition, have volume and surface area. So yes, by virtue of physical laws, people are and have area.


Not if the GM is clever. Flexible Aspect, for example. Yeah, you're a Chaos Mage, but that Hermetic can still gain the benefits, as the two traditions are similar. Or yeah, you're Black Magic, but that Christian mage can use it also.


You don't need a group to do it.

You are aware of the dice pools and thresholds involved, right?

There are no dice pools needed if you don´t want to save karma through an ordeal.

Uhh... You mean 4 successes needed and a pool of (Current) Magic + Ritual Spellcasting? A number of successful times in a row equal to the BC you are trying to Aspect? Yes. You are aware that you can spend Edge on this, right?

EDIT: Also, the cost for Initiating in a group does not pay for itself until the third and above Initiation, as it costs 5 karma to join the group in the first place. The first two Initiations are virtually indistinguishable because of that (I think the group saves you 1 karma total on the second Initiation, after the cost of joining is factored).

You join a Group for the Long Run...

Yeah. That.



Also known as 8 successes 4 times, casting a Force 8 spell (requires Magic 4, and overcasting).

GEO-mancy. A person is neither a mana line nor a power site.

Problem is: Some are arguing that Astral Hazing IS a Power Site. Just a mobile one centered upon a person.

rather, a domain in his or her own right, correct?

Something like that I guess. But People cannot be Domains, Only locations can have that vaunted status, to my understanding.

Unfortunately, the quality specifically states "...the character becomes an aspected domain in her own right...". For shenanigans like this, I think it is easier to simply make a house rule to prohibit it, rather than go around and around arguing whether it is allowable by RAW or not.

because if you can aspect a domain, then yes, you very much can aspect the BGC created by astral hazing, as it's a domain being created.

Eh, I was pretty close.


The why is he producing Backround Count? Obviously he is a power site.


If you want to paraphrase the actual rule then yes.


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

wait . . if it says aspected domain right there in the actual rules text, then why are we arguing about this again? O.o
if it is always aspected, that means all you have to do is change towards what it is actually aspected to correct? o.O

It is Neutral (as in NO TRADITION AFFILIATION) like Astral Static - This is what makes it a Negative Quality.
The argument is whether you can use the Geomancy Metamagic as given to Aspect the nature of the Person (since that is what you have to change). I would say no. I could get behind Filtering to minimize it with training, but turning it positive is counter to the Intent of the NQ (and I say is outside of the capabilities of Geomancy anyways), and does not fly at our table.

Emphasis mine.

No it isn't.

You have yet to prove it conclusively, all you have is an opinion.
Emphasis Mine...




And you obviously missed the part in my post where what I wrote is my opinion. It is right before the part you emphasized. And you STILL fail to explain how a SITE is the same as a Person. One is a Location, and the other is NOT. Seems pretty cut and dried in my opinion. The Astral Hazing Character is not a Power SITE, he is a Power SOURCE. They are NOT Synonymous. *shrug*

I also love how my argument on the pesky little detail of Geomancy affecting the "ambient bgc" and Astral Hazing overwriting the "ambient conditions" "ergo A can't effect B" hasn't been refuted. Criticized, but not actually shown to be in error.

Like tap water and a filter. The hazer's the water coming from the tap, and the geomancy's the filter.

Not really. You're not filtering dirty water from a tap; you're changing it so it comes out of the wellspring as clean water.

The question, which I brought up before, is how you can maintain the aspect of a domain consisting of, basically, you, when someone with astral hazing "has expressed metagenes that somehow catalyze and feed on the character's darker emotions and negative feelings." This is fluff, but still relevant. To "ensure that the imprinted mana does not dissipate between rituals", you have to re-sculpt the site, as necessary, to comply with the geomantic lore of your tradition. How do you re-sculpt magical metagenes that feed on negative emotions?

Chaos mages, they live off of entropy.

Not quite. Entropy is just thermodynamics. Glyph is talking about full-on negative emotions. To be frank, we're talking about places like inhumane prisons, brutal sex trade locations, massacre sites, etc...

With this in mind, the native aspect of the charcter that keeps the astral hazing effect would be "complete motherfucking asshole" and/or "completely motherfucking psychotic". So yeah, they get a magic boost...when they rape nuns, kick puppies, and generally generate negative emotions "just because". Any other time, they get the full hazing penalty themselves.

I have, you simply ignore it. Additionally, people take up space, have a volume and a surface area, and even doctors know that the different marks on their bones are known as "landmarks."


What argument? Your main argument has always been "a negative quality shouldn't ever be able to be a good thing, even if you follow the rules."


You resculpt the body, or the emotions themselves. Deeper meditations, mystic runes tattood/scarred on the body to direct the mana along certain paths... You know, like Feng Shui.


And Black Mages. Or Toxics.

That would be Filtering or Cleansing. Geomancy isn't a filter, it's a fundamental change in the source. It's supposed to be used to turn a Christian church into a Muslim Mosc or a Jewish Synagog, or a Druidic site.

In order to clean up a toxic dump you need to remove the toxic waste, you can't just "put a filter on it."



While true, I'm at least using the rules to back up my point.

Turning something not useful into something useful, ambient mana that hinders everyone into ambient mana that favors someone, but the hazer's still making what hinders everyone. Close enough to my way of thinking.

No, You haven't. You have spouted an opinion with no backing. People may take up space (never argued that hey did not have any volume to them), but they are not a Place, they are an Object (specifically a Person). Look up those definitions and you will see they are completely different.

People are NOT Places. No matter how hard you want it to be true. *shrug*

It is often a bad idea to try and apply real life measurements to justify a particular interpretation of a game mechanic.

At least, in rules systems as abstracted as Shadowrun is.



-k

It's not a toxic dump otherwise it would be aspected to Toxic mages. It is an aspected site that does not respond to any single known tradition. Since it is an Aspected Domain, that means it can be aspected, so we're simply using Geomancy to change the aspect.


And so are we.


....

/sigh.







EDIT: As far as people being sites? The rules only mention ley lines and power sites. It does not give us a definition of these terms at all; instead, whenever a game term is required to describe these sites it uses the term Backround Count. Therefore, a logical conclusion would be that any source of Backround Count is a ley line or power site and that either of those two terms are colloquialisms for the game term of Backround Count.

It is not a geographical location being referred to as a "site," necessarily, but only a "power site" which is not properly defined.

Duh. It's called an analogy. It's when you say one thing and imply that it's like another. Sometimes even say so explicitly.

And making that domain a not-toxic domain would require doing what, exactly?

Turning those radioactive oildrums into a jungle-gym for kids, right? And a fountain of oozing green liquid. Just needs a filter.

Again.. Newark?

Have you ever seen a relaxing cornfield/barn turned into a haunted house? Pay attention to your surroundings every Halloween.

As I pointed out before, they're not continuing to dump things there. That's called "stopping the flow" not "putting a filter on it."

I believe that power sites are explained on page 120 of Street Magic. Also check pages 84 and 85 of Magic in the Shadows (SR3).

I'm not going to type it all, but I assure you, characters are neither manalines nor power sites.

Here's some information about Manalines and Power Sites.

How can geomancy (emphasis mine) be performed on something that is neither geographical nor geological?

Even if you think people can be manalines or power sites (like Stonehenge) and subject to geomancy, Dracos18s got it right. From an online list of Metagenetic Negative Qualities, Astral Hazing reads "Whatever the ambient mana conditions are, the character always stands at the heart of a Rating 4 background count." (emphasis not mine)

No I was referring to I could see them making the jungle gym from recycled waste barrels.

The glow just helps them play at night.

Also cancer.

(I have a new game I'm working on, it's called "You Have Cancer!" the game is played by drawing a hand full of Hope and Dream cards and then discarding them as you find out that <cheesy game show voice>"You Have Cancer!"</cheesy game show voice>)

<Oprah voice as they point at different people in the audience> You get Chemo! You get Chemo! Everyone here today gets Chemo!</end Oprah voice>

I am not sure what you think Draco18 got right, but I certainly think you are making Neraph's point for him.

Edited: Draco said it better

The fact that Astral Hazing isn't ambient and that geomancing only alters the ambient conditions.
Probably. I'm not toturi.

OK, then the argument should then rightly follow with a RAW definition of Geomancy, namely it should specifically state that it alters only ambient conditions.

If I was GMing this:

In my mind, it's a fundamental question of game balance. In my games, a negative quality is a disadvantage proportionate to the points value until such time as you pay it off.

I think the key point for me is that before the character can turn the disadvantage into an asset, I would insist that they not only pay off the negative quality (at the normal post-chargen double cost), but also pay for the positive quality they will end up getting (again at double cost).

No matter what they tried, I as GM would tell them "Nope. Didn't work. You're not sure why." until they paid the karma.

Which , If I remember Correctly, it already does.

Ooh! Ooh! Now read off Astral Hazing again!
*Bounces*