Another fine example of how unclear rulings can become if you just ignore some words, change the meanings of some words or read everything with an assumption nowhere to be found and of course on the other hand demand hard ruling that it can't be that way while ignoring the description...
Who would have thought of that... (Aside everybody...)
I mean on the last page alone there where around 2-3 reasons why it doesn't work...

I believe that you and I are in Agreement, Draco18s... Why are you bouncing off the walls? You tend to get a bit dizzy doing that I bet.

We are, not disputing that.



Because I'm an excitable young dragon. Hopped up on too much caffeine.

Caffeine is BAD for Dragons, you know. You should stop that...

But it's sooo taasty.... ;_;

The caffeine itself is pretty vile stuff actually . .

I have to agree with that. Even a little bit and I start developing Migraines.

That depends. I was going for the taste.
Caffeine is a VERY bitter taste.
I can't operate propperly without at least a bit of it per day <.<;,

I've never had it strait.



Meither.

I had it straight. Once.
Even with puking from the taste i still could not get it out of my mouth for quite some time . .
And then my heart got the idea to run a marathon without telling me . .

Stimulants will do that to you.

May I have a quotation on that?

Because I remembered going through it once before and satisfied myself that it didn't. Or I could have misremembered, it happens. Hence I ask for a quote.

He gave the quote in that same post, did he not?

I had thought perhaps that there was mention of "ambient conditions" (per the wording of Astral Hazing) under the Geomancy's write up.

There is.

Go look at it in this post (I'm too laze to add the auto-snipped quote; use the handy link this one provides).



It's almost like no one's actually listening to my argument. I made it three pages ago.

Apparently you keep missing it, even when provided... Here it is, one more time.





As you can see, Astral Hazing DOES NOT CARE what the Ambient Mana Conditions are, the Astral Hazer ALWAYS stands at the center of a BGC of 4. And since Geomancy only affects Ambient Conditions, it cannot affect the Astral Hazer at all.

All you did was confirm that characters can be Power Sites. A Power Site, defined by your link, is any (semi-)permanent source of BC... Which Astral Hazing is. Geomancy does not care about whether you're performing it on a geographical location - the rules sections only govern the change of aspect on Backround Count, which, yet again, Astral Hazing is.


So, despite that it is RAW, despite the in-game time taken, and resources devoted to it, you'd still disallow it because "negative should mean negative." Do your players still have passive streams of income when they take Day Job? I'd like to see some consistency then and have you say that their character cannot gain any nuyen from that Negative Quality, as the quality itself is negative and shouldn't be able to be used to gain a benefit from it.


By definition, a character with Astral Hazing, since he is always in the heart of BC4, BC4 is ambient ("of or relating to the immediate surroundings of something") in relation to him.


No there weren't any. I've addressed them all.


Thank you for defining "ambient" in your own words.

EDIT: For sense.

Another way to think of it is this: the AH provides his own ambience. We know that BC doesn't stack, only the highest applies, so this is simply another way of reminding you that his BC is overriding the common BC=0.

Ironically, specific trumps general, an Astrally Hazed person on the moon would still stand in a R4 BC.



You forgot to look at the example:

ambient:
1. of or relating to the immediate surroundings of something.
"the liquid is stored at below ambient temperature"

The "of something" in this sentence, is "the liquid." The ambient temperature in this case isn't caused by the liquid, but rather measured locally relative to the liquid. Moving "the liquid" to a different place results in different ambient conditions relative to the location of the liquid, but again, it's not caused by the liquid!

The quote about Geomancy states how it affects ambient conditions, but it does not follow that Geomancy only affects ambient background count.

No, what I stated was the NO MATTER the ambient conditions around him (ie, your Geomancing), it DOES NOT MATTER because the Astral Hazing overrides it. No matter what you do to try and change it, it does not take, because the AH continually overrides whatever it is you are trying to do.

I did not confirm any such thing and the link does not define a power site in that way. The rules talk about aspecting a manaline or power site.

@Draco18s - Yes, so the Geomancy aspects the ambient mana condition gradually towards the geomancer's style of magic.

And there is proof out of your own mouth.
So gemonacy does not affect astral hazing.
Praise and glory to Draco18s the dragon who brought us mere humans the light of logic and reason from the heavens.
If Goethe would still be alive, he would write a poem about him, I guess.

Honestly, it is hilarious through, that people are going through great lengths to argue for the legality of something to make their character stronger.
If they have to abandon reason, logic and facts altogether they do it without even a flinch, for a fictional game.
I guess I should not be surprised, that people do it in reality, too. The differance beeing, the laws of nature can't be broken.

If that line was the only line in the description of Geomancy, I would be inclined to agree. However, it is not the only line describing Geomancy.

That line shows the speed at which the Geomancy affects the ambient mana conditions. It does not preclude Geomancy from affecting Astral Hazing. It shows that Geomancy does not affect Astral Hazing in the described manner.

*cough*

No, the liquid is a small container and they were specifically mentioning the ambient tempurature of the room, not the subject of the sentence. Make it a pool. Pools have ambient tempuratures of their own.


... No it doesn't. How do you even come to that conclusion? The AH constantly overrides the BC of the location it is in, but it does not constantly try to override any attempts to alter it - if it did you would likewise be unable to Filter or Cleanse it.


Did you simply fail to read what you posted? Your link, first paragraph, second sentence, part B: " ...power sites, [which are] spots of concentrated magical energy," (edited for clarity). A power site is defined by your link as a spot where magical energy is concentrated... like a character with Astral Hazing, where BC is constantly pooled around him.


My arguments have no such flaw.


...

*cough cough* <Astral Hazing is, by definition, ambient> *cough*

I should get that cough looked at...

And that is exactly how we run it. It is unalterable by any metamagic in our games, though I could maybe see filtering potentially reducing it to zero (though we don't actually allow that) with enough initiation grades to back it up. Yes, IT CONSTANTLY OVERRIDES Ambient conditions, and Geomancy changes Ambient conditions. Since the AH constantly overrides that, Geomancy does not work. Glad you agree, by your own admission. *shrug*

Astral Hazing, by overriding ambient, is not ambient. By definition.

You seem to have caught a cold.

Geomancy aspects the ambient mana condition gradually towards the geomancer's style of magic.

How does Geomancy aspect the ambient mana condition towards the geomancer's style of magic? Gradually.

Does this statement say that Geomancy only affects ambient mana conditions? No.

Does that mean it affects non-ambient conditions quickly?

That statement does not say that either. We simply do not know how until we look at the anteceding paragraph.

There are lots of things the rules don't say. That doesn't mean that those things work.



Can't embed images

Welp.

I guess that takes care of that.

Yes, it does. By that logic you are using it could also summon a chocolat bunny, create a realm of hookers and balckjack, or whatever comes to mind. Does it say it won't do any of that? Well, no.
Rules tell you what stuff does. They do not tell you what stuff can't do. Limited amount of space you know...

But if you do find a Metamagic for creating a realm of hookers and blackjack do let us know.

I can currently get one or the other, but together it keeps overstressing the etheric weave of the mini-realm and collapsing.

More research required.

You are the one saying that this is like a character with Astral Hazing, not the source. I don't believe any reputable source in all of Shadowrun says that a metahuman can be a power site.

As I have said before, I would agree with you if that single statement was all that was describing Geomancy. But it is not the entirety of the description of Geomancy.

Oh you mean like this part?

I can't read that. The image size is too small and when I zoom in, the resolution goes to the toilet.

I can barely make out "What" and "How". But if you are copying from the book, then yes indeed, it does take care of that. Because the other paragraphs do specify how background count is affected.

eomancy's descrption is fairly clear that geomancy applies to locations - and a cyberzombie isn't a location - so there's simply no way for a cyberzombie to alter his astral hazing using it (or having it cleaned by someone else). Even if it could, there's the little problem that geomancy alters the backrgound count on a monthly basis, where hazing trashes it on an hourly basis.

Sort of like trying to use toxin-sucking plants to clean up right at the chemical plant's sewer outlet. As long as the plant's running, there's no way it will work.

I don't know why the image goes to shit for you, but this is the highlighted bit of text.



There aren't rules for non-ambient mana.

None of the remaining paragraphs reference background count except by referring back to the same background count mentioned here ("the background count", etc)

And finally we do get to the correct paragraph and sentence that shows that the rules in Geomancy are for ambient mana without reference to any generic Background Count.

@toturi

And?
The only affect the ambient Backgroundcount of sites. A person with hastral hazing is not a site and the backgroundcount of astral hazing is not described as ambient. So it does not work on astral hazing.

Again, please back your assertion with the correct quotes. If you can.

I am pretty certain you're both on the same side at this point.

If you're not, you're going to have to clarify your positions.

Forcing people to play Quote Roulette to satisfy some whim of yours is just petty. You know what is being said, and you know the Quotes exist. Why is this still an argument?

Because I have no idea how he is arriving at the conclusion. Why and how is a person with Astral Hazing not a power site?
What is the definition of a "power site" in SR?

Therefore then is a person with Astral Hazing not a "particularly powerful permanent domain"?
I am not certain how powerful the domain has to be to be considered "particularly powerful" but I do know that a person with Astral Hazing "becomes an aspected domain in her own right". Is the person then not "permanent"?
As far as I can see there can be 2 lines of argument against the person being a power site and both have nothing to do with geological or geographical reasons because the definition of a power site does not appear to include such.
The first is that the domain is not powerful enough. The second is that it is not "permanent". Since people have come to the conclusion that Geomancy is not applicable to a person with Astral Hazing, then I would like to know how they come to such a conclusion, particularly how they are defining "powerful" and/or "permanent" and the RAW basis of each (if any).

Once again - A PERSON is NOT a LOCATION. An Astral Hazer is a POWER SOURCE not a SITE. Gained by basic English Skills, no need for a quote.

Again my above quote about power sites show that such power sites are not defined in SR as geographical locations. If you have a quote that show that a power site has to be a geographical location and only a geographical location, then please show it. An Astral Hazer is a domain and a power site is a domain, therefore a Astral Hazer may well be a power site.

Power Gamer Clap Trap as far as I am concerned.