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Smilin_Jack
QUOTE (Cain @ Sep 24 2014, 12:27 PM) *
In SR4.5, the Average Joe has a skill of 0 in driving. They default or rely on Pilot programs. A skill of 3 is supposedly "professional", and a pro driver is a lot better than your average commuter. Still, that leads to problems-- with an attribute of 3, if merging into traffic has a Difficulty of -2, they can't do it at all, which is downright silly.


Holy fraggin drek people -

QUOTE (Shadowrun 4th Edition - 20th Anniversary Edition - Combat - Vehicle Combat - Vehicle Tests - Page 168 (Unknown Printing - PDF & Print - Catalyst))
Characters don’t need to make a vehicle test every time they operate a vehicle. For normal everyday tasks, like driving to the Stuffer Shack, it’s assumed the character performs this automatically. A vehicle test is called for only when there’s a chance of bad consequences (like crashing), or if time is a crucial factor (like jumpstarting a car while under fire).


Merging into traffic under normal circumstances, is - ordinary, everyday bullshit, which per the rules you do not roll for.

Why the frag you are pulling situational modifiers (i.e. COMBAT and/or NON-ORDINARY modifiers) into a discussion about ordinary, everyday bullshit - is frankly boggling.
Jaid
QUOTE (Fatum @ Sep 24 2014, 02:02 PM) *
*sigh* If you pay very close attention to the block of text you're quoting, you'll note that I have never mentioned skill 3 there.

Attribute value of 3 is a human average, according to the core. Skill rating 2 by the description in the core, again, is a novice "shaky on more complex yet still routine procedures". Given that an average driver only drives one class of vehicles, we can safely assume he's specialized.
Merging or performing a sudden stop requires a Vehicle Test (Reaction+Pilot+Handling) with a threshold of 1 (CoreAE, p.168). The 7 dice we arrived at in the line above are more than enough to buy the requisite number of successes or roll and succeed.


actually, you did mention skill 3. right here:

QUOTE (Fatum @ Sep 24 2014, 01:21 PM) *
But they do have enough. An average Joe with an attribute 3, skill 2 or 3 and a skill specialization is capable of driving no worse than the real-life people you see on the roads.
Actually, better, seeing how these latter are total goddamn imbeciles.


and no, the average joe doesn't have 2 or 3. they have 0. that is, in fact, the classic example of people with skill 0.

here's the vehicle example for a rating 0 skill:

"Basic operatorís license. Can get from here to there, but canít
handle driving in adverse conditions."

that competent but otherwise average driver you mentioned? that's skill rating 1. skill rating 2 is a go-ganger (so an amateur-level stunt and race driver), skill rating 3 is a trained professional who has taken defensive driving courses and such, and so forth.

the average joe not only does not have a specialization, they don't even have the skill at all.
Cain
QUOTE
Yes, yes, the same does not mean the same, I have completely agreed with your peerless reasoning.

You said I claimed "All BP characters are identical". I asked you to quote it, and all you do is try and argue over the definition of the word "same".

Tell you what. Quote me. Show where I said, in so many words,. "All BP characters are identical".

For example:
QUOTE
*sigh* If you pay very close attention to the block of text you're quoting, you'll note that I have never mentioned skill 3 there.

eek.gif

Are you fraqgging kidding me?
QUOTE ("Fatum")
But they do have enough. An average Joe with an attribute 3, skill 2 or 3 and a skill specialization is capable of driving no worse than the real-life people you see on the roads.
Actually, better, seeing how these latter are total goddamn imbeciles.

Those are your own words. No misquotes or word twisting. Your own words are "skill 2 or 3".

I'm not trying, say, to point out where you once used the word "same" and twisting it out of context to mean everything in the world is identical. wink.gif Are you seriously claiming you never said "skill 2 or 3" now?

QUOTE
Merging into traffic under normal circumstances, is - ordinary, everyday bullshit, which per the rules you do not roll for.

Why the frag you are pulling situational modifiers (i.e. COMBAT and/or NON-ORDINARY modifiers) into a discussion about ordinary, everyday bullshit - is frankly boggling.

I'm wondering the same thing myself.
Glyph
Low or zero-rated skills letting you do everyday tasks didn't really mess up SR4. What did mess it up was the extremely narrow range that they had for skills, combined with the fact that between Attributes and dice pool modifiers, your skill could be a third (or less) of your total dice pool. The bottom line is that they presented differences of a single die (about a third of a success) as if they were vast gulfs of ability, when in practice, someone with a skill of 3 got a single success less than someone with a skill of 6. On average. And with the way a TN of 5 makes dice rolls go all over the place, Joe Average could win against a supposed master martial artist/crack shot/Nascar driver a lot more than he should be able to.

One of the things I agreed with SR5 on was spreading skills out to a range of 12, rather than 6. I preferred SR3's approach, where the descriptions only went up to 7 and 8 (expert/world class). Sure, they had a bit of the same hyperbole the SR4 skills had, but it let skills go high, while still keeping a skill of 6 as something meaningful and special. The NPCs fit that overall mold, with skills of 7 or 8 being very rare for them. SR5, by constrast, you see lots of 5's and 6's for people like bartenders or beat cops, with professionals like fixers or street docs having some skills in the 7-9 range. The archetypes, by contrast, don't seem to have the same level of skill. They look more like SR4 characters. Some of them don't have a single skill of 6 - or even a single skill of 5. It's like they were all made before they did the big change to skills. Despite all that, it is still an improvement over SR4's too-narrow skill range.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
I was always (and still am) of the opinion that a range of 9 (Unaware to 7 - before Adept Abilities) was more than enough of a range.
Glyph
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Sep 24 2014, 09:28 PM) *
I was always (and still am) of the opinion that a range of 9 (Unaware to 7 - before Adept Abilities) was more than enough of a range.

I think it would have been more than enough of a range, if the game mechanics supported what it was supposed to represent. But an extra die in one component of a dice pool simply doesn't do a good job of representing the difference between a taxi driver and a NASCAR driver, or a normal CEO and Damien Knight. It's not that the range is too narrow, so much as it is that the difference between skill levels is so miniscule, mechanically.
Cain
The thing about SR3 (and previous editions) was that there was no skill cap. Your starting max was 6, but you could raise it forever with karma, assuming you had enough. This made high skills much more impressive-- for example, you could really believe that Fastjack had a Computer skill of 12+. In practice, the scaling costs meant no PC would ever actually get that high, but it made it a nice goal to shoot for.
sk8bcn
QUOTE (Cain @ Sep 25 2014, 08:32 AM) *
The thing about SR3 (and previous editions) was that there was no skill cap. Your starting max was 6, but you could raise it forever with karma, assuming you had enough. This made high skills much more impressive-- for example, you could really believe that Fastjack had a Computer skill of 12+. In practice, the scaling costs meant no PC would ever actually get that high, but it made it a nice goal to shoot for.



If you play by the rules, strictly, it was very hard to go over 6.

You had to train to validate your skill gain.

If you had a level 6 skill, to go to 7, you had to score a success with 6 dices at TN 14 (skill value to acquire x 2).

Going to 8 had a TN of 16.


So technically, even if your character had the requiered karma fairly quickly, you had to spread it out because on average, it took around 3 scenarios to validate your skill improvement.


I doubt many GM applicated it but it was a good mesure against munckinism.
nezumi
Skills don't require a skill check to increase in SR3. Learning higher power spells do, but skills and attributes just require you throw karma at them.
bannockburn
QUOTE (nezumi @ Sep 26 2014, 02:33 PM) *
Skills don't require a skill check to increase in SR3. Learning higher power spells do, but skills and attributes just require you throw karma at them.


QUOTE (SR3 Core Rulebook @ p. 245)
It is up to the gamemaster to balance the requirements for learning new skills and improving Attributes and skills against the gaming group’s style of play. Such training can be made into a short and simple mechanic, such as requiring a Skill Test using the skill to see if it can be learned or improved. The target number for such a test would be twice the Skill Rating sought. If the character did not possess the skill, the character would have to default. An instructor could add dice to this test, per the Instruction rules. Good Karma could only be spent to learn or raise the skill after this test was successfully made.

I believe this is what sk8bcn meant.
Of course, this is an optional rule, depending on GM fiat. Personally, I've found it to be very helpful, and we seldomly had skills over 8, with a house-ruled hard cap of 10 (and only ever one at this rating).
Fatum
QUOTE (Jaid @ Sep 25 2014, 12:20 AM) *
and no, the average joe doesn't have 2 or 3. they have 0. that is, in fact, the classic example of people with skill 0.
So, by your estimation, do the doctors in the clinics available to the general public have skill 0 in Medicine? Do the automotive mechanics have skill 0 in that? They don't need to perform tests for their day-to-day business, after all.


QUOTE (Cain @ Sep 25 2014, 12:22 AM) *
You said I claimed "All BP characters are identical". I asked you to quote it, and all you do is try and argue over the definition of the word "same".
Tell you what. Quote me. Show where I said, in so many words,. "All BP characters are identical".
I've quoted you thrice, but you prefer denying that "the same" means "the same". That says a lot about you, but hardly anything about the actual comparative variety of the characters made with BP and priority chargen.

QUOTE (Cain @ Sep 25 2014, 12:22 AM) *
Those are your own words. No misquotes or word twisting. Your own words are "skill 2 or 3".
That's paying too close attention. Fine, my bad there. Still even with skill 1, not 2 or 3, and without spec, an average Joe has enough dice to buy the success needed to merge into traffic at normal conditions.


QUOTE (Glyph @ Sep 25 2014, 06:03 AM) *
Low or zero-rated skills letting you do everyday tasks didn't really mess up SR4. What did mess it up was the extremely narrow range that they had for skills, combined with the fact that between Attributes and dice pool modifiers, your skill could be a third (or less) of your total dice pool. The bottom line is that they presented differences of a single die (about a third of a success) as if they were vast gulfs of ability, when in practice, someone with a skill of 3 got a single success less than someone with a skill of 6. On average. And with the way a TN of 5 makes dice rolls go all over the place, Joe Average could win against a supposed master martial artist/crack shot/Nascar driver a lot more than he should be able to.
Yeah, but what ways can you see around that while staying within the multiple d6 mechanic? It's not granular enough to present both the superiority of a smartgun over a laser sight (enforcing the +2 dice vs +1 die) and the difference of skill between characters on the same scale, for all I see.


QUOTE (bannockburn @ Sep 26 2014, 05:14 PM) *
Of course, this is an optional rule, depending on GM fiat. Personally, I've found it to be very helpful, and we seldomly had skills over 8, with a house-ruled hard cap of 10 (and only ever one at this rating).
4e also had rules for training times, but given the amount of time characters can spend off-screen when a hacker probes hosts or the face does his thing, I've never seen these used.
bannockburn
QUOTE (Fatum @ Sep 26 2014, 06:17 PM) *
4e also had rules for training times, but given the amount of time characters can spend off-screen when a hacker probes hosts or the face does his thing, I've never seen these used.

Yes, I agree. I don't use training times because it's too much micromanagement for my tastes. However I do use the success tests necessary to raise a skill in SR4. I'm not defending either way, though. Just saw a need to clarify there.
Jaid
QUOTE (Fatum @ Sep 26 2014, 12:17 PM) *
So, by your estimation, do the doctors in the clinics available to the general public have skill 0 in Medicine? Do the automotive mechanics have skill 0 in that? They don't need to perform tests for their day-to-day business, after all.


doctors in a hospital have trained the skill extensively, under professional teachers, and devoted effort to learning it. they are well above the average joe in the field of medicine, 0 being the rating the average person has in medicine as well as driving.

seriously, i'm not making this up. in SR4, the average joe canonically has a skill of 0 in driving. this isn't opinion, this is right in the books. a skill level 1 in driving is noted as being an experienced driver with a good enough driving record to lower their insurance premiums (also people who've started learning to fly aircraft; the other example is something like an air cadet i think).
ShadowDragon8685
QUOTE (Fatum @ Sep 26 2014, 11:17 AM) *
Yeah, but what ways can you see around that while staying within the multiple d6 mechanic? It's not granular enough to present both the superiority of a smartgun over a laser sight (enforcing the +2 dice vs +1 die) and the difference of skill between characters on the same scale, for all I see.


One thing that occurs to me is, perhaps, drastically increasing the amount of dice you get per skill increase versus attribute increase. Say, make it Skillx2+Attribute+modifiers. This would make Skill much more important, and also give 'joe average' - assuming he has at least a few skill! - enough dice to buy a success.

QUOTE (Jaid @ Sep 26 2014, 11:43 AM) *
Seriously, I'm not making this up. in SR4, the average joe canonically has a skill of 0 in driving. this isn't opinion, this is right in the books. a skill level 1 in driving is noted as being an experienced driver with a good enough driving record to lower their insurance premiums (also people who've started learning to fly aircraft; the other example is something like an air cadet i think).


Just because something is put in the book does not mean it's right, or makes sense. We've shown - with numbers and math, and the actual, hard-crunch tables - why "joe average" cannot do "joe average" things without hilariously fucking up and ruining the world. Therefore, that one fucking "This is how many skill means what" table is clearly what's wrong.
Fatum
Yeah, it's in Core alright. But this particular example is not exactly the point, anyway (even if I could argue that it only applies to the countries where getting a driver's license does not require a goddamn six-month course with an extensive test in the end like around here, and it's never used cause the dogbrain's usually driving). The point is: for the simple stuff, most ordinary folks have enough dice even if they had to roll; for the more complex stuff/tests perform under pressure, they won't have enough dice to succeed reliably, but that's fine.
Smilin_Jack
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Sep 26 2014, 11:03 AM) *
One thing that occurs to me is, perhaps, drastically increasing the amount of dice you get per skill increase versus attribute increase. Say, make it Skillx2+Attribute+modifiers. This would make Skill much more important, and also give 'joe average' - assuming he has at least a few skill! - enough dice to buy a success.

Just because something is put in the book does not mean it's right, or makes sense. We've shown - with numbers and math, and the actual, hard-crunch tables - why "joe average" cannot do "joe average" things without hilariously fucking up and ruining the world. Therefore, that one fucking "This is how many skill means what" table is clearly what's wrong.


Yeah - no.

'average joe' has an 'average skill level' - so runners need something above that which requires Tir Ghosts have something above that. Suddenly we only have a much narrower range in which to reflect skills, which causes people to bitch about how 'hard' it is to differentiate their characters.

Fuck that noise, been there done that - didn't like it.

Preventing shit like the above are one of the reasons "Skill 0 - Unaware" and "Don't roll ordinary, everday bullshit" exist.

-Jack

P.S. - The game isn't balanced around what 'average joe' can do, so frankly 'average joe' only matters when I'm shooting at him, or he's shooting at me (with his shitty non-average skill) - otherwise he can piss off.
Fatum
QUOTE (Smilin_Jack @ Sep 26 2014, 10:57 PM) *
P.S. - The game isn't balanced around what 'average joe' can do, so frankly 'average joe' only matters when I'm shooting at him, or he's shooting at me (with his shitty non-average skill) - otherwise he can piss off.
What if a random passer-by wants to provide a downed runner first aid? What if a runner runs onto a highway, how likely is he to be hit?
That said, sure, Shadowrun, like any other gamesystem, works best for the typical power levels. The extreme low end of the spectrum can be as ridiculous as the extreme high end, where literally nothing can punch through a tank's armour realistically.
Smilin_Jack
QUOTE (Fatum @ Sep 26 2014, 01:39 PM) *
What if a random passer-by wants to provide a downed runner first aid? What if a runner runs onto a highway, how likely is he to be hit?
That said, sure, Shadowrun, like any other gamesystem, works best for the typical power levels. The extreme low end of the spectrum can be as ridiculous as the extreme high end, where literally nothing can punch through a tank's armour realistically.


'Random' passerby? [Logic (3) + Skill (0) + Mods (x) vs (2)] exactly as laid out by the BBB. Which is why you see all those people standing around a victim doing nothing except having their thumbs up their asses.

Runner pulls a Darwin Award worthy stunt like... running onto a busy highway - 'Average Driver' [Reaction (3) + Skill (0) + Mods (x) vs (2)] vs runners [Dodge/Gymnastics Dodge] and/or Additional Edge - maybe even [Hand o' God] if necessary. (If anything this is way to generous to the runner, as it takes both failing their rolls for the runner to be hit.)

-Jack

Trying to use the SR Rules as a 'world simulator' is doomed to failure from the start - as every edition of the SR Rules are so abstracted it's unreal.
Stahlseele
QUOTE (Fatum @ Sep 26 2014, 09:39 PM) *
What if a random passer-by wants to provide a downed runner first aid? What if a runner runs onto a highway, how likely is he to be hit?
That said, sure, Shadowrun, like any other gamesystem, works best for the typical power levels. The extreme low end of the spectrum can be as ridiculous as the extreme high end, where literally nothing can punch through a tank's armour realistically.

Want to gridlock a city?
Throw a Flashbang on some high speed roads.
Watch the cars pile up backwards indefinitely!
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Sep 26 2014, 02:59 PM) *
Want to gridlock a city?
Throw a Flashbang on some high speed roads.
Watch the cars pile up backwards indefinitely!


Gridguide will re-route efficiently and quickly. *shrug* smile.gif
binarywraith
Unironically what Grid Guide ™ is for. biggrin.gif
Noll
Even tho' I bought 4e and 5e, and we also tried a mini-campaing in 5e, both me and my players really prefer 3e.

In 5e we felt that our chars were like immortals, cover was not that necessary anymore, either dodge or high armor rate invalidated the need for any cover. We might have done something wrong but really, we didn't like it.

3e works great for us, we don't have any problems with it, and we often house rule something we don't like. It works wonders.
Cain
QUOTE (Fatum @ Sep 26 2014, 09:17 AM) *
I've quoted you thrice, but you prefer denying that "the same" means "the same". That says a lot about you, but hardly anything about the actual comparative variety of the characters made with BP and priority chargen.

"He used the word 'same somewhere in the sentence! Therefore it's all identical! Identical I tell you! MWA-HA-HA!" silly.gif

Context, motherfragger! Do you speak it?
QUOTE
That's paying too close attention. Fine, my bad there. Still even with skill 1, not 2 or 3, and without spec, an average Joe has enough dice to buy the success needed to merge into traffic at normal conditions.

As pointed out repeatedly, according to the BBB the Average Joe has skill 0 in driving. That means he has two dice.

Luckily, most of the time they don't have to roll, or rather, the Pilot/Grid Guide does it for them. Even then, the dice pool for if things go bad is way too low.

QUOTE
Yeah, but what ways can you see around that while staying within the multiple d6 mechanic? It's not granular enough to present both the superiority of a smartgun over a laser sight (enforcing the +2 dice vs +1 die) and the difference of skill between characters on the same scale, for all I see.

Easy. Abandon fixed TN. The curve isn't perfectly smooth, but it does work.
Fatum
QUOTE (Cain @ Sep 27 2014, 09:22 AM) *
Context, motherfragger! Do you speak it?
No, I only speak legalese. When you claim that all BP-gen characters you've seen have the same meaningful characteristics - "same gear, primary dice pool of 20+, same set of secondary skills, etc" - and then proceed to contrast that against the wonderful priority system than even allows for craziness like sammies with carbines, even your denying-the-obvious powers leave little space for interpretations.

QUOTE (Cain @ Sep 27 2014, 09:22 AM) *
As pointed out repeatedly, according to the BBB the Average Joe has skill 0 in driving. That means he has two dice.
That table is the source of multiple woes, especially minding that its general descriptions do not match the skill-specific.

QUOTE (Cain @ Sep 27 2014, 09:22 AM) *
Luckily, most of the time they don't have to roll, or rather, the Pilot/Grid Guide does it for them. Even then, the dice pool for if things go bad is way too low.
Well, minding the vast numbers of dice a dogbrain is rolling, that does not really fix anything.

QUOTE (Cain @ Sep 27 2014, 09:22 AM) *
Easy. Abandon fixed TN. The curve isn't perfectly smooth, but it does work.
Far too clunky, and the curve is out there. Players struggle to detect hits even with fixed TNs as it is.
Glyph
QUOTE (Noll @ Sep 26 2014, 09:05 PM) *
In 5e we felt that our chars were like immortals, cover was not that necessary anymore, either dodge or high armor rate invalidated the need for any cover. We might have done something wrong but really, we didn't like it.

Not really. With Reaction + Intuition as the base defense pool, it becomes more difficult to hit people, although if you didn't feel any need for cover, it might have been that you were fighting generic foes like gangers or security guards. Shadowrunners are not the best of the best any longer, and there are plenty of enemies at their level or above now. DrZaius' SR5 pit fight threads show that the game can be deadly when your optimized character meets an enemy that is similarly powerful.
Cain
QUOTE
No, I only speak legalese. When you claim that all BP-gen characters you've seen have the same meaningful characteristics - "same gear, primary dice pool of 20+, same set of secondary skills, etc" - and then proceed to contrast that against the wonderful priority system than even allows for craziness like sammies with carbines, even your denying-the-obvious powers leave little space for interpretations.

Nope, still not seeing where I said: "All BP characters are identical" or even "All BP-gen characters have the same meaningful characteristics."

I'd ask you to quote me, but then we'd get another rant on how you can twist the word "same" out of context.

You keep using that word. I do no think it means what you think it does. silly.gif
QUOTE
That table is the source of multiple woes, especially minding that its general descriptions do not match the skill-specific.

So, you cite 4,5 when it supports your argument, but ignore it when problems come up? nyahnyah.gif
QUOTE
Far too clunky, and the curve is out there. Players struggle to detect hits even with fixed TNs as it is.

That's actually a matter of straightforward statistics. If players are struggling to get successes when the odds are basically 1 in 3, their dice pools are too small. With exploding dice an a TN of 4, the odds are about 50/50 per die. So yeah, the odds favor the player in SR3.

QUOTE
Not really. With Reaction + Intuition as the base defense pool, it becomes more difficult to hit people, although if you didn't feel any need for cover, it might have been that you were fighting generic foes like gangers or security guards. Shadowrunners are not the best of the best any longer, and there are plenty of enemies at their level or above now. DrZaius' SR5 pit fight threads show that the game can be deadly when your optimized character meets an enemy that is similarly powerful.

Limits don't help, either. With a low-Accuracy weapon, it's much easier to dodge than soak, and there's no Limit on most Dodge rolls. Since combat is basically a series of opposed tests, all else being equal, they guy with the higher limit wins-- and with no limit, the advantage goes to the defender.
Fatum
QUOTE (Cain @ Sep 27 2014, 11:44 PM) *
Nope, still not seeing where I said: "All BP characters are identical" or even "All BP-gen characters have the same meaningful characteristics."
Right, because the primary skill, secondary skills and gear that you claim to be identical are not the meaningful characteristics of a character.

QUOTE (Cain @ Sep 27 2014, 11:44 PM) *
So, you cite 4,5 when it supports your argument, but ignore it when problems come up? nyahnyah.gif
That's a problem with interpretation, not with the ruleset.

QUOTE (Cain @ Sep 27 2014, 11:44 PM) *
That's actually a matter of straightforward statistics. If players are struggling to get successes when the odds are basically 1 in 3, their dice pools are too small. With exploding dice an a TN of 4, the odds are about 50/50 per die. So yeah, the odds favor the player in SR3.
They're struggling to detect hits, not to get successes. Dice get painted 5s and 6s, etcetera. With a variable TN, things will become this much worse.

binarywraith
QUOTE (Fatum @ Sep 27 2014, 09:03 PM) *
They're struggling to detect hits, not to get successes. Dice get painted 5s and 6s, etcetera. With a variable TN, things will become this much worse.


Your players need remedial kindergarten, then. If they can't reliably identify what numbers are on the face of a die...
Fatum
Roll 20 dice, spend the next half a minute counting dots. Fun!
Extended tests for ultra super fun!
binarywraith
I just rolled 20 dice to test, it took approximately five seconds to determine number of successes.

Your players are clearly defective.
SpellBinder
It's the American "Common Core" education system.
binarywraith
Must be. Hell, if it's that much of a big deal, Chessex sells blank cubes. Just paint two sides black and go on with your life.
Fatum
QUOTE (binarywraith @ Sep 28 2014, 09:57 AM) *
Must be. Hell, if it's that much of a big deal, Chessex sells blank cubes. Just paint two sides black and go on with your life.
And that's going to help with variable TNs how, exactly? *fp*
binarywraith
QUOTE (Fatum @ Sep 28 2014, 01:25 AM) *
And that's going to help with variable TNs how, exactly? *fp*


If your players can't count to potato, variable TN's are probably not for them. They should stick to SR4 & 5, which have simplified the TN system to only require counting to potato.
Cain
QUOTE (Fatum @ Sep 27 2014, 08:03 PM) *
Right, because the primary skill, secondary skills and gear that you claim to be identical are not the meaningful characteristics of a character.

How can you see, when you backpedal that quickly?

Nice try, but start again, with my actual words.
QUOTE
That's a problem with interpretation, not with the ruleset.

So when it's a problem with your favored system, it's interpretation; but when it's a problem with a system you haven't explored, it's ruleset.

Gotcha. silly.gif
QUOTE
They're struggling to detect hits, not to get successes. Dice get painted 5s and 6s, etcetera. With a variable TN, things will become this much worse.

Not really. Considering that SR3 had much smaller dice pools overall, counting successes were much easier.
Stahlseele
I prefer the variable TN system to the variable Dice Pool System of SR4.
One of the stated design goals was to reduce the ammount of dice being rolled.
And yet you get pools of 20 to 30 easy in SR4, where that was seldom and hard work in SR3.
And at a certain point, getting more DICE was useless in SR3 and thus discourated players from trying to do so . .
Whereas it was imperatively important to get TN modifiers that stack with each other for stuff, because TN10 was easy to get as a result to have to roll to succeed.
Even worse if you needed more than one hit as well.

In SR4 and 5, as it stands, all they did was shift the ammount of dice you roll from often smaller ammounts to less often bigger ammounts of dice.
Glyph
The variable TNs went up a bit too quickly for my liking in combat, where you could too easily have both sides missing each other because it was too difficult for even the sharpshooters/marksmen to hit anything. On the other hand, they worked much better for social skills, where conditional penalties meant something (although part of the problem in SR4 was that when they changed them from TN mods to dice pool mods, they left them as, is instead of increasing them a lot, allowing bloated social dice pools to blow right past mods that should have been significant hindrances).
Stahlseele
Yeah, that's when the melee specialist gets his go.
Either tanking damage like a boss untill he is in reach or being too hard to hit to stop him from coming into reach.
In buildings, this is a bit more viable than outside. but outside you at least have drones to cover your ass usually.
Now, the decking and rigging TNs going up that fast and high was a bit problematic, as there was not much that lowered the TNs again . .
Cain
I have to say, in SR3 and earlier, really huge dice pools were very rare. The most I ever rolled was 20, and that was for some really unusual circumstances. (The most I've heard of was documented in a CLUE file somewhere: 28 dice, IIRC, and he critically fumbled.) Starting with SR4, 20 dice was the norm.
Cochise
QUOTE (Cain @ Sep 29 2014, 09:44 PM) *
(The most I've heard of was documented in a CLUE file somewhere: 28 dice, IIRC, and he critically fumbled.)


A very specific one trick pony starting character can roll between 27(30) in offense and 33(36) dice in melee without combat pool which is 8. The values in brackets are when trying to disarm an opponent.
Cain
QUOTE (Cochise @ Sep 29 2014, 01:40 PM) *
A very specific one trick pony starting character can roll between 27(30) in offense and 33(36) dice in melee without combat pool which is 8. The values in brackets are when trying to disarm an opponent.

Not that I'm doubting you, but how do you manage that?

For those who haven't played classic Shadowrun: your core dice pool was just your skill. So, if you had Firearms 6, you rolled 6 dice. Concentrations and specializations added to the specific skill at the cost of reducing the general skill, and then you could add Combat pool (or other applicable pool) up to your general skill. Since combat pool was also your only means of dodging, using it all up wasn't usually a good idea.
Stahlseele
Twinked out Wakyambi Adept with a Scythe Weapon Focus if i remember correctly.
ADEPTS can start out with 18 dice in any skill they so please to have.
6 skill, 6 improved skill, 6 combat pool, done. This makes them pretty much useless at anything else, but it works.

One of the things where the SR3 Priority System was hillariously broken.
Priority A for Ressources of 1 Million
Priority B for Magic limited tp Adept
Priority C for 24 Attribute Points
Priority D for 30 Skill Points to use
Priority E for limited to Humans only.
So yes, you can totally be a Bio-Adept with 2 Points of Bioware and still have 5 Points of Magic.

If you swapped around Ressources A and B up there, you could still be a full Magician with a still respectable 500k Bankroll in Character Creation as well.
Cain
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Sep 29 2014, 02:29 PM) *
Twinked out Wakyambi Adept with a Scythe Weapon Focus if i remember correctly.
ADEPTS can start out with 18 dice in any skill they so please to have.
6 skill, 6 improved skill, 6 combat pool, done. This makes them pretty much useless at anything else, but it works.

That's 18 with combat pool, which is impressive, but still not the 27/30 without combat pool mentioned above.

Also, I recall that it was hard to start with a bound weapon focus at chargen in SR3.
Stahlseele
Hard, but not impossible.
And a Weapon-Focus gave bonus dice to the skill used with it even under SR3 rules already.
So a Force 6 Weapon Focus would bring that up to 24 already. Then factor in stuff like enhanced artwinculation, specialization and concentration and martial arts and you are there abouts.
Cain
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Sep 29 2014, 04:02 PM) *
Hard, but not impossible.
And a Weapon-Focus gave bonus dice to the skill used with it even under SR3 rules already.
So a Force 6 Weapon Focus would bring that up to 24 already. Then factor in stuff like enhanced artwinculation, specialization and concentration and martial arts and you are there abouts.

I just double-checked. It *is* impossible for an adept to start with bound foci under Priority. Point-buy made it possible, IIRC, but since weapon foci had such a huge bonding cost, it wasn't always feasable.

So, we can have skill 6, Imp. ability 6, and spec for 2 more, bringing us to 14. Enhanced articulation brings up up to 15. Which is still really good, but it's still not 27(30) without combat pool.
Glyph
The highest I can get, assuming a mystic adept using points rather than Priority, is 32 dice, including Combat Pool. Have a specialized skill, giving you 5 in the main skill and 7 in the specialization. Combat pool of 7 or better, capped at 7 for the specialization rating (improved ability in SR3 only gave dice bonuses, and did not count as a skill increase). Improved ability at 5, capped by the main skill (and your Magic rating, since the two augmentations lower your Magic to 5). A reflex recorder and enhanced articulation for another +2. A force: 6 bonded weapon focus such as a katar for another 6 dice. Finally, the ambidexterity/two-weapon fighting style let you add half skill, rounded down (3) and half improved ability, rounded down (2). That's 32 dice. So I'm not sure how someone can get 27(30) before Combat Pool.
Cain
QUOTE (Glyph @ Sep 29 2014, 06:33 PM) *
The highest I can get, assuming a mystic adept using points rather than Priority, is 32 dice, including Combat Pool. Have a specialized skill, giving you 5 in the main skill and 7 in the specialization. Combat pool of 7 or better, capped at 7 for the specialization rating (improved ability in SR3 only gave dice bonuses, and did not count as a skill increase). Improved ability at 5, capped by the main skill (and your Magic rating, since the two augmentations lower your Magic to 5). A reflex recorder and enhanced articulation for another +2. A force: 6 bonded weapon focus such as a katar for another 6 dice. Finally, the ambidexterity/two-weapon fighting style let you add half skill, rounded down (3) and half improved ability, rounded down (2). That's 32 dice. So I'm not sure how someone can get 27(30) before Combat Pool.

I'm not even sure that's feasable. It would cost 640,000 nuyen and 18 karma to have a rating 6 weapon focus at chargen. Technically it's possible under SR3 BP, but it'd cost a pretty penny.
Glyph
Yeah, it would require the equivalent of A resources, which is why I said you could only do it with points, not Priority. And magician's way adepts get something like 6 spell points per level of magical ability - so assuming 2 points of that, you could just barely afford to bond it by buying some more spell points with resources.
Cochise
QUOTE (Cain @ Sep 30 2014, 12:11 AM) *
Not that I'm doubting you, but how do you manage that?


I'll just quote myself from a thread last year (just no spoiler tag):

It's an extreme form of min-/maxing. Some aspects of the second dwarf are bound to ignite a serious discussion (one that was lead on this board many times and with no definite answer). For the sake of keeping this thread clean, I will have to ask from anyone who is reading this post to refrain from commenting what he/she might perceive as rule breaking or against SR3's RAW, since all aspects involved have been discussed "to death" on various occasions and I'm absolutley positive that no one would be able to bring up any new arguments that would invalidate the involved interpretations. In particlular anyone looking at the numbers must also carefully read the comments below the "code"-section.

CODE
Edges:

1. Ambidexterity Lvl. III         (6 BP)
2. Aptitude (Clubs)              (4 BP)
3. add. attribute point [BOD]    (2 BP)
4. add. attribute point [QUI]    (2 BP)
5. add. attribute point [INT]    (2 BP)
---------------------------------------
Sum of BP:                        16 BP

Flaws:

1. Bad Karma                    (-5 BP)
2. Cursed Karma                 (-6 BP)
3. Allergy [citrus fruits]      (-4 BP) (uncommon, severe)
4. Cortex Bomb [area effect]    (-6 BP)
5. Combat Monster               (-1 BP)
---------------------------------------
Sum of negative BP:              -22 BP

MK I:

126 BP
-  5 BP Dwarf
- 30 BP Adept of the Magician's Way
- 48 BP 24 attribute points
- 18 BP 18 active skill points
- 25 BP 650.000• resources
-----------------------------
   0 BP
  
Attributes:
Name              B   E   R

Body:             4   5   6
Strength          4   4   6
Quickness:        4   5   5
Charisma:         3   3   3
Intelligence:     4   5   5
Willpower:        5   5   6
---------------------------
Sums:            24  27  31

Magic:            6 [3]
Essence:          6
Reaction:         5
Initiative:       5 + 1W6
Combat Pool:      8
Sorcery Pool:     4

Legend:

B = Distributed attribute points from the original 24 attribute points
E = B + add. attribute points from Edges
R = E + racial modifiers

Side note: The values of column "R" are relevant for skill cost calculation


Skills ( just active ones):
Name                        Level  Cost

Arnis de Mano               3      3 BP
- close combat maneuver            2 BP
- close combat maneuver (clubs)    2 BP
Clubs                       6      6 BP
Sorcery(Spell Defense)      2(4)   3 BP                  
Etiquette [Street]          1(3)   2 BP
---------------------------------------
Sum:                              18 BP

Adept Powers:
Name                                  Level    Cost

Magic Talent (voluntary geased)           3    2.25 PP
Improved Ability [Clubs] (vol.geased)     6    2.25 PP
Counterstrike (vol.geased)                4    1.5  PP
------------------------------------------------------
Sum:                                           6    PP

Side note: Magic Talent Level 3 provides 18 Spell Points

Gear:
Name                    Rating/Force    Cost

Sai                                     110•
Weapon focus (Sai)           6      640.110•
Rapid Transit Jumpsuit                  550•
Helmet for RTJ                           55•
under arm protectors                    275•
FFBA (full)                           2.200•
Actioneer Longcoat                    1.650•
Lifestyle: Low (5 months)             5.000•
--------------------------------------------
Sum:                                649.950•

Side note: The weapon focus is bound with the 18 Spell Points coming from Magic Talent

Armor Values:

Ballistics:           5
Impact (from range):  7
Impact (in melee):    8

Dice pool for character's specialty (using his two Sais) when attacking:
  Source      main hand   off hand   total
  
  Skill Rating        6          3       9
  Weapon Focus        6          3       9
  Impr. Ability       6          3       9
  ----------------------------------------
  Sums:              18          9      27
  
  Special case situation: When trying to disarm opponent with melee weaponry with range 0 or 1

  Sai                 2          1       3
  ----------------------------------------
  Sums:              20         10      30
  
Dice Pool when defending:
  Source      main hand   off hand   total
  like attack        18          9      27
  Counterstrike       4          2       6
  ----------------------------------------
  Sums:              22         11      33
  
  Special case situation: When trying to disarm opponent with melee weaponry with range 0 or 1 which is allowed even in defense

  Sai                 2          1       3
  ----------------------------------------
  Sums:              24         12      36

All attacks for specialty have a base target number of 3

MK II:

126 BP
-  5 BP Dwarf
- 30 BP Adept of the Magician's Way
- 40 BP 20 attribute points
- 21 BP 21 active skill points
- 30 BP 1.000.000• resources
-----------------------------
   0 BP
  
Attributes:
Name              B   E   R   N

Body:             3   4   5   5
Strength:         4   4   6   6
Quickness:        3   4   4   5
Charisma:         3   3   3   3
Intelligence:     2   3   3   5
Willpower:        5   5   6   6
-------------------------------
Sums:            20  23  27  30

Magic:            5 [4]
Essence:          6
Bioindex          1.9 (0.95 affecting magic attribute)
Reaction:         5
Initiative:       5 + 1W6
Combat Pool:      8
Sorcery Pool:     5
Task Pool:        1 (intelligence bases tasks only)

Legend:

B = Distributed attribute points from the original 20 attribute points
E = B + add. attribute points from Edges
R = E + racial modifiers
N = R + Bioware

Side note: The values of column "R" are relevant for skill cost calculation,
although an argument could be made that Bioware affected attributes are treated as natural and
thus would be the basis for calculation. This matter was left out on purpose and it doesn't have
effects here anyways.

Bioware Implantats:
Name                      Bioindex       Cost

Enhanced Articulation          0.6    40.000•
Cerebral Booster II            0.8   110.000•
Muscle Toner I                 0.4    25.000•
Reflex Recorder (Sai)          0.1    10.000•
---------------------------------------------
Sums:                          1.9   185.000•

Side note: Magic loss to the overall Magic Attribute as per M&M Errata: 1.9/2= 0,95 = 1 (rounded up)  
    
Skills (active one only):
Name                        Level  Cost

Arnis de Mano               3      3 BP
- close combat maneuver            2 BP
- close combat maneuver (clubs)    2 BP
Clubs                       6      6 BP
Clubs B/R                   1      1 BP
Sorcery(Spell Defense)      2(4)   3 BP
Stealth(Sneaking)           1(3)   2 BP                  
Etiquette [Street]          1(3)   2 BP
---------------------------------------
Sum:                              21 BP

Adept Powers (Base values):
Name                                  Level       Cost

Magic Talent (voluntary geased)           6    4.5  PP
Improved Ability [Clubs] (vol.geased)     4    1.5  PP
------------------------------------------------------
Sum:                                           6    PP

Magic talent 6 equals 36 Spell Points.
12 Spell Points are used for:

1. 3 SP for joinuing a magical circle (the two standard connections are assumed to be part of the circle)
2. 9 SP for initiation in a group with ordeal(oath)

Aquired metamagic: Atunement [item]
Gained Power Point due to magic increase:

Counterstrike (vol.geased)                2    0.75  PP
Improved senses (flash compensation)           0.25  PP
-------------------------------------------------------
Sum:                                           1     PP

Side note:

Due to the MK II's bioware implants he will suffer a magic loss with a value of 1.
Since Adepts of the Magician's Way rule wise always must substract magic loss from the Magic Talent power
and this particular power is already under effect of a voluntary geas, the character is forced to give up
Magic Talent with a combined PP value of 1. Due to the cost reduction of the volunatry geas this leads to him
losing 2 levels of this power instead of just one. Thus his overall magic rating drops to 5, while is magic rating
for sorcery (and theoretically conjuring) drops to 4

We still have 24 Spell Points for other purposes.  

Gear:
Name                    Rating/Force      Cost

Sai                                       110•
Weapon focus (Sai)           6        640.110•
Rapid Transit Jumpsuit                    550•
Helmet for RTJ                             55•
under arm protectors                      275•
FFBA (full)                             2.200•
Actioneer Longcoat                      1.650•
Lifestyle: Low (5 months)               5.000•
Dikote for Sai(non-focus)               4.000•
   - assumed surfeace of 400cm≤
Rutheniumpolymer coating for clothes   80.000•
   - 8m≤ should suffice to cover longcoat, humpsuit,
     boots, FFBA mask and helmet for a "stumpy" dwarf
12 scanner for Ruthenium "invis"       60.000•
20 reservce akku packs                  1.000•
----------------------------------------------
Sum:                                 814.950•

Total expenses for gear and implants:  999950•

Further info: The weapon focus is bound with 18 of the remaining 24 Spell Points coming from Magic Talent
The last 6 Spell Points are used to get attuned to the main hand weapon (the non focus sai).
As OR for atunement a value of 6 seems to be adequate when looking at the values for a handcrafted blade (5) and
a modern world Katana (7)
The weapon focus sai goes into "off-hand" due to two reasons:
1. By RAW the dicoted non focus sai will have a +1 power (as stupid as it sounds), but not an increase of damage level (due to being a club and
    not a weapon with edges that are used for cutting).
2. The skill increase provided by a weapon focus is rule wise totally unaffected by the hand in which the focus is held.

Armor Values:

Ballistics:           5
Impact (from range):  7
Impact (in melee):    8

Dice pool for character's specialty (using his two Sais) when attacking:
  Source      main hand   off hand   total
  
  Skill Rating        6          3       9
  Weapon Focus        6          3       9
  Improv. Abil.       4          2       6
  Enhanced Articul.   1          -       1
  Reflex Recorder     1          -       1
  ----------------------------------------
  Sums:              18          8      26
  
  Special case situation: When trying to disarm opponent with melee weaponry with range 0 or 1

  Sai                 2          1       3
  ----------------------------------------
  Sums:              20          9      29
  
  Side note: An argument could be made to add the bonus dice from Enhanced Articulation and Reflex Recorder into a single value of 2
  thus allowing an additional die for off hand derived of that value. For the sake of simplicity the above described situation
  uses "worst case" for the character by only taking the lower value.
  
Dice Pool when defending:
  Source      main hand   off hand   total
  like attack        18          8      26
  Counterstrike       2          1       3
  ----------------------------------------
  Sums:              20          9      29
  
  Special case situation: When trying to disarm opponent with melee weaponry with range 0 or 1 which is allowed even in defense

  Sai                 2          1       3
  ----------------------------------------
  Sums:              22         10      32

All attacks for specialty have a base target number of 2


General annotations:

  1. Starting values for build points are 120 Building Points and the suggested maximum net gain of 6 BP when apllying Edges and Flaws. Edges and Flaws are listed upfront, since they are used for both versions.
  2. I'm totally aware that the Companion warns against the Aptitude Edge being used for combat related skills and thus is subject to gm's approval, but the important part is: It's not outright forbidden and is of no importance when calculating the dice pools.
  3. The MK II version makes use of the again gm depended allowance of spell point based initiation. I will not go into a debate on how and why the character gets both a metamagic and a Power Point. Someone interested in details: Search this forum. There have been various discussions on the issue.
  4. The above examples do not even touch the subject of "High Power"-Character creation as per optional rules from "Mr. Johnson's little Black Book". But I can assure you that the use of said optional rules would allow to "worsen" both versions.
  5. When looking at the Mk II you'll notice that he overall fields less dice than MK I. However, he also has a lower base target number and his ruthenium polymer coating will allow him to constantly impose a permanent visibility modifier of at least +3 upon his opponents: 12 scanners provide a maximum of +12 as vision modifier. Ultrasound and (natural) IR-sight both provide the maximum reduction by halving it to a value of 6. In melee all vision modifiers are additionally halved => +3 at bare minimum.
  6. Despite those rather "insane" dice numbers both dwarfs cannot guarantee victory against any melee opponent. Well (or similarly) built melee trolls will on average lose during the combat tests and then simply shrug off the damage during the damage resistance tests. But the goal of this exercise wasn't aimed at building "the ultimate killer martial artist" but someone who simply won't lose (since a stand still between two opponents doesn't qualify as loss) unless being extremely unlucky.
  7. I don't need reminders on how any given gm can easily find ways to "beat" these characters outside their field of specialization or hanging them by their Flaws either.

Cain
Hm. That's still only 18 dice in most circumstances, going to 24 when defending and disarming. That is a lot, but I still don't see how you get 27 without combat pool, let alone 33 when defending. With combat pool, those numbers look more plausible, but not without it.
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