Nah, I figured that was just common sense. UMT is kinda terrible, both in-world and from a game design perspective because it removes an interesting facet of the game without adding anything cool in return.

I actually liked the UMT. I actually used it to explain why my elementals were actually sapient rather than automatons.

I also liked the bit from Forbidden Arcana of Chain Breaker. Yeah, you can't bind spirits, but you get two extra spirit types. It fit the concept I had for my Chaos Mage. His personal magic was hermetic, but he belief with spirits was shamanistic.

Elementals, like all spirits, were sapient before UMT.

Correct.
The difference was that Elementals were basically slaves bound by the Hermetic and the Shamans on the spot Spirits were asked nicely to help and let go immediately afterwards.

I spoke a bit fast about the "like all spirits" on second thought, because of things like watchers, or some kind of malveolent entities you can find in the Critters' book from SR3 for example.

I don't know how much nature spirits are not "slaves" too. They had not much choice but to follow your orders, and sometimes it was hardly beneficient for their domains. Many spirits of man have contributed to the utter destruction of the research laboratories they personified.

I actually disagree with this sentiment...

I love UMT...
UMT opens up large vistas of creativity in my opinion. And to be fair, magical practices and traditions are mostly fluff anyways. That is where the interesting alterations take place.

Both disagreeing with that sentiment and loving UMT is certainly your prerogative but then again others certainly have the right to disagree with you



I'd agree with that if UMT had (just) been used to establish a more precise depiction of how SR magic is supposed to work on its (abstract) metaphysics level. Unfortunately UMT instead also interfered with established crunch and fluff and thereby created that image of "robbing without actually giving anything (new)". I'll get back to this a bit further down.



And that's where SR4 and onward failed to actually deliver with how they handled UMT: Instead of maintaing some of the very clear distinctions - part in crunch and part in fluff - between practices and traditions it just created a - to me totally non-interesting - pabulum of "same by different name".

To elaborate a bit further:

UMT on metaphysics level wasn't actually anything new by the time the label itself was used for the first time during the end phase of SR3 and certainly wasn't anything revolutionary when it became the (seemingly new) foundation of SR4 and onward. Prior sources had already told the player that the trappings, techniques and the resulting traditions were actually mental crutches that meta-human magicians used or rather had to use in order to successfully express their magic ability. Certain comments by magical power players like dragons always suggested that the underlying rules - i.e. the actual metaphysics - of magic technically allowed things that meta-human magicians simply couldn't comprehend or use to the fullest extend. Back then it seemed that this was an intended design choice for SR magic that neither players (nor NPCs with very distinct exceptions) should be able to overcome within the setting's lifespan.

Just take a look at bound spirits vs. unbound spirits: Both concepts already existed prior to UMT. Basic crunch on how to conjure either spirit type was pretty much identical just like UMT later said as well. The interesting part came where - on crunch and not just fluff level - the associated mechanics were (seemingly) mutually exclusive in one tradition because all officially depicted traditions always only used one of the mechanics but never both at the same time. Then came SR4 with UMT as the foundation of metaphysics, actual crunch and fluff ... all at the same time. So suddenly all known traditions mixed and matched all available mechanics with next to no limitation and thus ultimately without anything that made them "unique" to a noticable degree. Where it previously was desirable to secure the man-power of say a hermetic or chaos mage for their elementals now any type of magician could provide that "product". So here UMT deprived the game of something and didn't truly add anything worthwhile in return.

I would have had less objections towards UMT if it had been built as a "magic construction kit" on metaphysics level that described all the various magic phenomena that are supposed to be possible within the setting, then provided the crunch for these phenomena and how they can and connot be combined with each other ... and on fluff level (and thus ingame perspective) the whole idea of UMT should have been kept behind the curtain with just some small hint of "more" like what Great Dragons had hinted at every now and then. This would have kept the ongoing "debates" between the various traditions vivid and meaningful just as it would have kept the choice of tradition something truly meaningful for both the narrative and the player.

Agreed.

To go a step further, I think this is a current problem with the game as a whole, I think the fluff after about the mid 2060's suffers horribly. I get that to keep the crowd interested you need to reveal answers and develop the setting, but we've been given so many answers and so few new mysteries that things really feel "solved."

We have answers about horrors, great dragons, the deepest secrets and metaphysical mechanics of magic (UMT). What's there left to wonder about? The lore has reached a point where it needs a reboot. Even the deepest of magical mysteries are now just...mundane.

UMT would be great if it were presented as a flawed theory that has good predictive power, but still failed to explain enough phenomena to gain strong acceptance. You can imply, rightly, that perhaps UMT is true in the fluff, but that some secrets are so deep it'll take forever to unravel them and fully flesh out a true UMT.

Instead, UMT is pretty much "Yep, magic's solved. What's next?" I feel like TARS & Cooper from Interstellar went on a metaplanar quest and came back with the quantum magic black hole data. We've solved gravity magic! UMT for everyone! (Don't get me wrong I loved interstellar, but that was a movie about gaining knowledge. Magic is about the deep unknowable mysteries.)

It's not what "you" think, but we collectively think and therefore each point is open to discussion.

And like traumatic events, emotional content transforms items and locations. This is mechanically evident in background count and magical thesis. To preserve the magical properties, you would instead need to harvest the materials in such a way as not to introduce magical properties (that could potentially conflict with the base properties). In the example of the bear pelt, the raw belt may not have significant properties, but charging it with an energy, which could be at the harvesting stage or at the killing stage, may add usable energy.

I don't know how that would be a detractor if it was true. I also don't know what form of physics describes the transfer of intent and emotional content via action.

That would still make UMT part of the in fiction magic science and that's actually still a situation that I would want them to avoid in a new edition - with or without a reboot - as much as possible.



In terms of describing magic for the player on crunch level (and above) I have nothing against telling him or the gm "Yes, this is how magic works with those faint exceptions that you deliberately create under rule No.1". I'm actually all for telling the player exactly what can and cannot be done on a theoretical level ... just like the list of things that spellcasting is supposed not to be able to accomplish that got outright ignored by a certain writer in a certain SR4 product with a spell that shall not be named now.

Whether you want to call those metaphysics UMT or label them differently is ultimately of no concern but the thing that should not happen (again) is that those metaphysics can be mixed and matched on crunch level without discretion or conflict within the narrative. Even if that metaphysical framework does get an ingame representation that somewhat overthrows previous systems (like shamanism or hermeticism) to a certain extend it should neither completely invalidate them nor be without problems of its own. Think of stuff like Newtonian physics still working fine for many day to day applications and not being completely rendered invalid by Relativity and Relativity still being at (large) odds with Quantum Mechanics.

But I'm explicitly asking you to explain to me why (and where) you think that the existing material would support what you presented as your opinion there. It's you who said that things "should" do this or that ... not an anonymous collective.



Which still has no effect on the "preservation" part when it comes to "magical properties".



The thing there is: those particular transformations not only "preserve" magical properties but technically intensify them further to a point where they outright break analogies to physics that might come to mind.



The important part in all depections I have seen in SR so far wasn't about "not introducing (further) magical properties" but rather about not trying to access the available ones with means that were based on tools derived from highly abstract thinking that ultimately remove the person trying to harvest stuff from the overall equation and thus destroy what the person tried to access.
Come to think of it I now even wonder why the author of that talismongering section didn't include a Comment from the talismonger that went on saying that killing the bear with bare hands in an open fight would result in the best possible result and the axe - as per United Talismonger Association regulations - just was the solution where the results were still deemed acceptable. That would certainly have been a "crazy" spin on the whole thing.



It's just that to my knowledge none of the known source materials ever suggested it in this particular way but very explicitly told the player that certain forms of aide at either the harvesting or the killing stage would render the material less valuable than it was in its prior "living" state. The more technological know-how and economic thinking was involved the less throughput you got (and still get).



Because it's ultimately too one-sided and brings SR magic straight back to the "physics that have yet to be understood" territory which at least the first three editions most definitely tried to avoid ... and something at least I would like to see preserved (pun intended) for whatever comes "next".



Yet you primarily try to use physics and associated analogies to describe such transfers of intent and emotional content via action and go as far as telling me that certain things "should" be this or that.

I apologize, I misread what you said originally. However, I said that "I would argue that it should" which is far less definitive than you are suggesting.

If you look at is a lesser equivalent to background count and a thesis, emotion and trauma contaminate the base properties, perhaps in a negative way (equivalent to normal background count) or a positive way (equivalent to aspected background count).

When a horrible event creates background count, introduces new magical properties. The horror of Auschwitz wasn't laying dormant under the surface of the site until the event, that energy was added to the site and was previously alien to it. It transformed the site. It did not preserve the previously existing qualities; if anything, it destroyed them.

A thesis, a focus, a lodge all behave in the same way. The objects don't have inherent properties, the magician created those properties and imbued them in the object.

I am not following what you are trying to say here.

It's almost explicit in the enchanting section in SR5, page 306 (obtain telesma). The more raw or the more effort put into crafting it, the easier it is to enchant.

I do not follow how a physics-based model for magic leads to it not being understood. I think there are steps in that argument that are missing.

If you want physics minded parallels to magic, I consider magic fairly Newtonian (drain being an equal and opposite reaction to casting a spell). Gravity is not understood in terms of how it works, but the effects are understood. Someone with a better understanding of physics could probably draw more parallels.

No. Nothing on this topic was physics-based until this post. Transfer of intent and emotional content are not physics concepts.

One concept that has been a common element across elements, though perhaps played down in SR5, is that SR magic is belief-driven. It works a certain way because we believe it should, not on an individual level, but collectively. Carl Jung would probably have a field day. Elves have pointy ears because our myths define them as having pointy ears. That in turn leads us to whether our myths are defined by the previous cycle of magic.

You have stated that you don't like UTM, but combining UTM with the belief-driven nature of SR magic, we can look to myths to explain SR magic. I think you can find a common theme in myths that when harvesting magical ingredients, deliberate (sometimes ritual) methodology is required to preserve the properties. Brutality is often associated with carelessness which in turn ruins what was being harvested, or at least diminishes the usable material.

And I'm still asking for the "why". To me your text so far has only provided what you think "should" be the new concept for magic in the theorized next edition. But I haven't seen why you think that what you're arguing for would "make more sense within SR magic's metaphysics" or how it would "create a better game experience".



And what if I do so? What's the goal in terms of the overall metaphysics of SR magic there?



Nothing that was questioned to begin with. One - quite important - question there however is: Why do you think that the permanent background count phenomena is the same underlying magical principle that we're dealing with when talking about the creation / harvesting of "telesma"?



So you're saying that said horror technically turned Auschwitz into a super-sized telesma?



So at this point you should ask yourself: Is your concept really a fit and truly applicable to the collection / creation / harvesting of telesma? My answer should be obvious.



And yet I'd ask again if that particular form of imbuing items with magical properties is or should be truly the same principle within the greater metaphysics of SR magic?




Well, this is an observation based on what the various incarnations of the SR magic rules have very consistantly told the player about what makes magic "tick": SR magic on a very basic level seems to operate under a concept where things must be in some sort of "natural state" in order to make magic usable. This creates the constant dilemma that if you alter that "natural state" you automatically lose at least part of the magic. Yet it's obviously still possible to apply some degree of processing and preserve magical properties to a certain degree. The more archaic you approach things - talismongering in partciular - the better your results are:

• use techniques and technology that are reminiscent of traditional hunter-gatherer societies and you get the highest yields in terms of raw magic power but relatively low numbers
• use techniques and technology that are reminiscent of pre-industrialized societes and you can increase the numbers but raw magic power decreases (typically by introducing negative modifiers on crunch level)
• use techniques and technology that are reminiscent of industrustrialized societes and raw power drops even further ... to a point where even the theoretically increased production volume utimately doesn't yield more material due to its inferior "nature"
• use techniques and technology that are on the current technological curve and the raw power drops to levels where things become too difficult to be worth their while outside of "because I can and want to" scenarios

Now each step in that above list represents a different level of abstract thinking that was necessary to develop the associated tools / technologies and the higher up you get in the development chain, the less direct involvement of an actual human being is required within the final process (that's why he's come up with the tools in the first place). Subsequently I'm under the impression that since page 306 of SR5 does actually not explicitly state otherwise it just maintains those proeviously established concepts and the "effort" part you're currently trying fixate on is just a coinciding part of that very premise.



Not so much "missing steps" but rather simple "communication hurdles based on language use". I didn't say that a physics-based model for magic would lead to magic not being understood. I actually said something to the contrary:

If you use a physics-based model as basis for the metaphyiscs of SR magic on design level you'll turn the whole thing into a "mere extenstion of (traditional) physics that has yet to be (fully) understood" by scientists from within the game universe.
Just like with UMT this would create a situation where magic traditions with a nature scientific setup are - with or without knowing - more or less "correct" about magic whereas spiritually shaped traditions would be "wrong" and fool themselves with thinking that they are doing one thing while they are actually doing something else.

I'm not a fan of such a premise nor would I want a reversal where the spiritual thinkers have nailed it completely and the science guys are just fooling themselves. I want magical traditions to be more or less equally "wrong" and "correct" about the actual metaphysics of SR magic.



I have objected to some of your approaches because despite of what your saying here many of your analogies and explaination attempts looked very physics driven to me. So while transfer of intent and emotional content are not physics concepts to me it looked as if you shaped a large number your analogies and examples in way that attempted to turn those two things into physics concepts.

I'm on my phone and it's a pain to do segmented quotes with context. I may come back to the rest of the post later.



In every case other than your proposal for explaining harvesting telesma, emotionally raw, brutal, and physical ordeals transform the environment or objects. Despite this, you argue that it is a component of preserving existing properties.

This is logically inconsistent with magical thesis, temporary and permanent background count (aspected or not), and focus creation. What are you gaining from a logical break in the internal consistency of SR magic?

In a sense, yes. Or to put it another way, telesma that is easy to work with because of the emotional investment you put into it is a miniature aspected background count.

I could see a group, likely toxic mages, incorporating pieces into foci.

To tie this back on target, I would like to see the object resistance table to be based purely on the complexity of the object and then modified by your personal investment into it, perhaps preserve some of the modifier if there was a strong connection to someone of the same tradition.

If Linus (Peanuts), the talismonger wants to enchant his Blanket as a counterspelling focus, the material composition is moot; his connection is so strong that he will ace the enchanting test even if it is made from titanium and kevlar nanobots.

It's not my "proposal" but the established "how things work" within the available sources of now 5 editions. As far as as "every other case" is concerned: "Transformation" with regards to certain aspects does not exclude "preservation" of other aspects. This whole "transformation" agenda of yours is actually one of the things that evoked the "physics driven" vibe I get from you. It's like your your constantly arguing about transitions between energy states like kinetic enegry vs. potential engery vs. other energy forms which also happen to "transform" one into another. In your attempt of explaining it you're exchanging "emotional energy" to "magical energy"



I'd say that I'm not arguing that "despite" anything there because non of these "other cases" have actual depictions that would prove the correctness of your assertion ... but even if they did: Preservation as a non-logical deviation from an established pattern in this particular case would be something that - given how I like SR magic to be or rather get back to - would be a welcomed element where the metaphysics simply don't work how some - including you - might expect.



I still object to the notion that the creation of a magical thesis is truly the same magical phenomenon as background count (temporary or otherwise). And I maintain the point that focus creation and particularly its subset of talismongering for telesma isn't the same phenomenon either => Subsequently for me there's actually no need for "logical consistency" between these different phenomena.



The "crazyness" / "insanity" that SR magic was all about during the first two editions? Something that in fiction magic users and scientist have to ponder about like "forever" because the magic system itself doesn't require such a internal consistency across the board but merely within observed occurances of the same particular phenomenon? A system inherent element that causes "magic" to stay "magic" in the long run, bceause "magic" ultimately makes no sense!?



Which isn't "logically consistent" either with regards to background count on various levels (and I'm not going into all of them):

Most emotional "investments" that people would categegorize as exceeding those that you have to do for creation of "virgin telesma" are only suitable to create temporary background count. Permanent background count is not created by an indiviudal ... not even a group of people will cause something like that. Yet for telesma you now suggest that way lower emotional investments create both a permanent miniature background and one that's even positively aspected. If "logical consistency" truly is a goal of yours you just missed.

Those inconsistencies aside: SR3 "experimented" with magic users creating locallized aspected background count with the Virtuoso metamagic. Let's just say that that's one of the things that should never return ... particularly not on such a fundamental level.



And what exactly would define the "complexity" of the object there? Because ...



... somehow I have this strong feeling that a blanket made from wool has a significantly lower level of "complexity" than one where titanium is shaped into a structure that exhibits cloth-like properties and includes futher kevlar nanobots.


Oh, and I still haven't heard the "why" for all of this.

Honestly, UMT should have been presented as some stuffed-shirt Hermetic from MIT&T's thesis, with shadowtalk running along the lines of 'Dog thinks you're barking up the wrong tree' and 'Cool story, bro, let's see you manifest Killing Hands'. Possibly a quote from The Laughing Man that's just two pages of HAHAHA.

UMT is correct in-game; any belief system can be used as a magical tradition, whether it is "right" or not - what matters is that the practitioner believes that magic works that way. However, I do not see it being widely accepted outside of hermeticism, or other nuts-and-bolts traditions such as chaos magic. People who believe they are being guided by the LOA, or speaking with the spirits of their ancestors, or performing miraculous healing, won't suddenly give up their religious/cultural view of magic simply because of some academic theory.

The thing is, even though magic may spring from the same source, there should be more difference between the traditions. Belief systems should hobble practitioners in some ways, and empower them in others. I think it would work better if magical talent was divided more into components, with more positive and negative modifiers that can be taken with them, and if the traditions had some unique drawbacks or advantages. It would be more work, and more difficult to balance, but it is better than spirit types, materialization or possession, and Drain Attribute being the only non-fluff differences between traditions.

The behavior of strong emotions in SR magic is established over 5 editions. My assertions of parallels to physics are your imagination. I am attempting to find internal logic for the SR magic. If anything, I am drawing from Jungian psychology.

I have demonstrated consistency in the results of emotional investment transforming objects and their surroundings. You would do well to reexamine your assumptions and dial down the attitude.


I have explained it and you have deliberately ignored it. I am done contributing to derailing the thread.

UMT can find wider viewed as underlying principles that require the cultural and mythological framing for metahuman utilization. In which case, the UMT may actually act as a bridge between cultures and religions, at least the less close-minded organizations.

Yeah, try to tell that to the Sylvestrines, or the Aztecs.

One thing hasn't been discussed a lot : background and storyplots? Should they continue with the same things that are done in 5th ? (way to expend it, style, and so on?...)

I have a couple of reactions.

First, as discussed above, I think that the game needs a reboot. At this point we have a foundation of crazy paving, topped with a layer of packed sand, covered in asphalt, on which someone erected a pup tent coated in metallic paint.

Dynamite it out of existence, and rebuild.

As for the writing, I liked the style of 3rd Edition, with shadowtalk as per 2nd Edition.

Shadowtalk is a powerful way of adding commentary, doubts and wiggle room.

I would like to see a return to IE/draconic and corporate meta plots (a mix of the two) driving the story, but in the background. If anything features one of the groups directly, it would be in a dedicated adventure and still not necessarily featuring direct interaction.

I would also like to see an updated threats book with content that is either featured in follow up books/adventures or has guidelines for rebranding content to fit the group....

As someone who loves the Earthdawn connections in Shadowrun, I very much agree.

I'm not sure it's a good thing usually. For exemple, Vampire went back to it's roots and Requiem never became the iconic game Masquarade was.

Or maybe minor retconning, I don't know.


I have a personnal exemple with a french game called INS/MV. In this game, you played demons or angels in a satyrical version of our world. They made a campaign in their second edition where Matthias, an archangel, fell down for betrayal and trying to seize power by alliance with viking gods.

After his fall, he was replaced by Emmanuel (I think).

Now third edition, the devs retconned stuff that added complexity to the background. They decided that Matthias still was incharge and another minor stuff.

I hated it, and honestly, couldn't take their retconning as cannon for my own game as the same players, same characters did beat Matthias when they played. That would have made no sense at all.



If I translate this to shdowrun: if you had to clean up the background, you'd have to change the NAN that makes no sense in demography for exemple and, maybe, keep the story plot but reduce the size of their lands to something so much smaller. But now, how do you sell such a change to your gaming group?

Impossible.

Which ends up fragmenting the community even more than what 3rd/4th/5th does.


With one perfect edition, you can reunite them like DD 5th does.

With 2 different backgrounds, it's impossible like it is in WoD.

Requiem became a far more defined and BETTER game than Masquerade ever was (disclosure: I prefer a more Open toolbox game to the crushing Metaplot that Masquerade became, even if I own both the Old and New Editions of the Ganes - both "Worlds" have their merits, depending upon the story that you want to tell).
After all, there are not 2 different backgrounds for the World of Darkness... they are Distinct and Different game lines. (Storyteller and Storytelling - not the same thing)
The Chronicles of Darkness is developed by a Company (Onyx Path Publishing) that is dedicated to making an amazing game. And that makes all the difference.

While I cannot fault the freelancers of SHADOWRUN, I can place the blame for the mess at the Line Developers feet.
There is a distinct lack of communication and editing within the system at this point that truly needs attention.
I am not sure that it needs a reboot or a new Edition... but something needs to be done.




*Personally, I prefer the style of 4th Edition*

Though I feel that the whole thing needs to be nuked and started fresh with the core concepts both story and rules wise in tact I do have to agree that touching the story may fracture the community of players more but it may not if they take a good approach to the whole thing.

As far as its impact on the company when compared to white wolf, well, white wolf had a strong player base and the game story wise wasn't that bad. They had a good thing going with the whole "someone said it, but it might not be true" way of telling their story. Mistakes can easily be brushed under the table most of the time. The company decided to nuke their game and start fresh when it wasn't needed and that caused the eventual splintering of the community. Both requiem and Masquerade had strong merits and strong followings from their fans but it was not good for the company as they stopped producing Masquerade and that had the larger percentage of their customers.

Shadowrun doesn't have as large a following so a reboot with a streamlined system could gain more customers. if they reset the story and keep some of the broader strokes to keep it very similar to what we know but modernize the story rather than try to patch former mistakes I don't think you will have too much of an outcry from their existing player base. The new player base will know the new story and we can all move forward with a better stronger game. this of corse is dependent on having the right captain for the ship moving forward. (that is not me saying the current one is bad, as I don't know the whole story of what is happening in the upper ranks.)

red

A reboot would be a bad idea, but I would like to see the metaplot slow down and take a bit of a different approach.

The current approach has the metaplot woven into every book release, where many threads are built upon simultaneously and plot elements quickly become outdated. While this is good from a story perspective, it's kinda rough from the perspective of someone who wants to run games.

It would be better to have dedicated campaign books that each cover a small set of story threads and are generally independent from one another. That way I can run them in any order in my game without difficulty, and each becomes an entry-point into the overall metaplot. Then, every once in a while they can release a big crossover story, sortof like the first phase of the Marvel Cinematic Universe.

Actually, I NEVER liked the NAN lands as they are written. It made absolutely no sense

Not really. It would just take someone with greater creative talent then is currently working at Catalyst.
Hell, here's my off the cuff explanation on why the US Balkanized as badly as it did:

The people in North Dakota, and other midwestern states absolutely despised what the Federal Government was doing to the Native Americans and revolted. This lead the Southern States and the Midwestern states to start a Second Civil War against Washington DC. The Native Americans in the Midwestern States integrated with the white people and at the same time changed their culture (give and take).

There, that was me thinking for 10 to 15 seconds on a story that makes a whole hell of a lot more sense then the Native Americans bovine excrement that was SR backstory. I would also have it that Florida is COMPLETELY controlled by CAS! None of this Caribbean League owning land. That makes even less sense than the NAN.


4th edition was not bad at all. Sure there were some rough edges, but compared to horsecrap that is the wireless bonuses in 5th edition, it was golden.


No such thing as "one perfect edition". There are people who are complaining about 5th edition simplifying things too much.

You will always have complains about something. Yet, from what I did read and saw, I have the feeling that DD5 did a very good job.


About the NANs, I said that the size wasn't possible with Indian demography, considering how the NAN were described (very racists against WASP). But of course, it can make sense if they integrate white people.


I'm not sure I would love to have a game with a reboot. I'm not sure I would want to go into it. Probably only if you had something VERY VERY VERY better than what we have.

I m all for keeping SR 20 years legacy. For it's good sides and bad sides.

Mostly with you, but I actually spent a lot of time in Florida - and various parts of Florida, at that.

I actually liked the breakdown of the southern tip of Florida. Here's why:

The people from Palm Beach (more or less) southwards are not generally simpatico with the rest of Florida, and in fact frequently at odds with them. They are also not all that cool with the rest of the CAS area, politically speaking. It would make more sense for them to become the driving force behind the CL than to knuckle under and become the whipping boy for the rest of the CAS.

So how would it come to pass? Probably a tit-for-tat negotiation. Both sides recognise that they don't want to be bound at the hip. The CAS recognises that they don't want a UCAS outpost there, and offer to let them go provided that they join the CL instead. The UCAS is happy to reduce the extent of the CAS, and agrees to play ball. Everyone goes home with minimal bloodshed.

I may steal this. My gaming group has also complained about that periodically over the years. "Where the hell were they hiding all those spare millions of Native Americans?" Ultimately, we've had to just chant the MST3K Mantra and get on with the game, but it's been on my low-pri To Do List for years to try to find at least a bit of a patch for this storyline hole.

I mean, it's been a canon thing since the start that a some of the NAN population were people who lived in the areas ceded to them that decided to stay. They aren't related by blood, but they had skillsets that were necessary. There's also the part where, IIRC, VITAS killed a lot less of the natives because they were isolated from major population centers.

The nations of the Caribbean did NOT have the firepower to resist the CAS. This alone would have had the CAS running roughshod over Caribbean League.


And you are welcome to it. Like I said, this was me thinking for 10 to 15 seconds.


But by canon, the Native Americans outnumbered the whites (which does NOT mesh with reality at the point of divergence).

Also VITAS would have killed a LOT MORE native americans BECAUSE they were in concentration camps. Especially something as nastily contagious as VITAS.

Hell, if the US government of the SR world wanted them dead, all they had to do was introduce a few tainted pieces of clothing or food. Then just sit back and watch the show.

I never saw the isolation being listed as the reason, but rather magic. Native medicine men and shamans were among the first magical healers on the Sixth World and so the native population was relatively untouched by VITAS.

That being said, it was also mentioned that a lot of the "tribals" were people who were 1/16 native or something to that effect. Combine that with the previously mentioned "people who were already living there and didn't want to leave" and that's how you end up with a population of millions. It's not a population of millions who look like native Americans, it a a population of millions who can claim some descent from such.

Something I never saw the books mention and wish they had was tribal "purity." You know, the kind of culture that poo-pops marrying anyone thats not pure enough for your parents tastes.

Re-read the NAN 2nd ed book then. They are described there as "pro-indian, WASP get out of here" mentality.

And Isolation was implied as the main reason why they mostely avoided VISTA.

Those facts may have been retconned later on, but back then, that was the reason (2nd 3rd).

Wow! Just went I thought FASA couldn't have been dumber. The Native Americans weren't isolated. They were in concentration camps.
Love the game system, but the non-magical background fluff is a big steaming pile of crap.

SR3's "so it came to pass" chapter only quotes "thousands of indians" going into the concentration camps (concerning the states, it's unclear about Canada for numbers).

Can someone sum up exactly what is the problem with the NAN demographics as described in the books? I found this stating that there were around 5 millions natives in the US in 2010 (3 millions declaring to be only of native descent): https://www.census.gov/prod/cen2010/briefs/c2010br-10.pdf . It doesn't seem like such a low figure.

The NAN population issues can easily be solved by simply modifying the lore to have the real life / SR timeline divergence start in the 1800's.

Just have an IE or some mysterious background player pulling a few strings or something to preserve the population and encourage some level of growth from the 1800's forward. There's tons of mechanisms by which this could happen. They could still be on reservations, impoverished, and all the other things that make the NAN formation happen.

I get that the established lore has a numbers problem, but this is hardly unaddressable.

3 out of almost 309 million total population by that same census, yet they somehow hold a rather large chunk of the U.S. That's the issue.

That's a little "thin on the ground" to hold such a large territory. And they sure as heck wouldn't be filling it up to typical population levels.

The problem with the above numbers is that you'r looking through a purely Human lens. A chunk of the NAN are MetaHumans especially things like Cascade Crow (predominantly Orks) and Tir Tairngire (Elves, yep the Tir was a founding NAN nation) a lot of whom may very well not look like Native Americans per say. It's also possible that the mana spiking has those of tribal descent expressing more to that heritage than their other genetic markers and this gets overlooked with all the Trolls and Orks showing up along side Elves and Dwarves) and it's entirely reasonable and likely that with the new fascination with magic (although not yet at a government, military and corp level like you see later on) that another New Age spiritualism spreads among populations and the shamanistic paths / tribal styles happened to be popular inspiring people to throw their lot in with the native populace.

there's two different subjects about this: how it could be rewritten to make more sense and what was written.

looking at my french NAN book:

Sioux nation : 31 millions inhabitans, 70% human.

rough translation:

"few inhabitants in the sioux nation cannot find an indien blood in their lineage. Non-indians are immigrants concentrated around cheyenne and working in high technology. [...] But in general englos (or something alike that means poor white americans) are held in low esteem.
"

Ofc, that blood affiliation doesn't make sense: how could you be racist against white ameriacans if half ypour population cannot be distinguished from a white american. I mean your grandmother was indian? Nice, but you still look like a white american.



Pueblo:

11millions, 65% humans

translation :

"pueblo has very few non-indian people. They threw them out applying Denver's treaty by the word."



I'm all for some form of soft reset. For exemple, I would maybe rewritte some of this stuff, including white americans in the NAN and retcon a few things, maybe also add a plot story where UCAS enters war against one of their nations and take it back (or something like this) but well, the 2nd ed writtings sucks.

Errr… Didn't they do some kind of war to do so, that they won with overwhelming powers which made negociations clearly in their favour?

Additionally it's not such a large chunk if you look at a population density map.

Sure, they can't pretend to the same level of "filling up". But does it really matter?

I clearly admit that the demographics quoted in the NAN books are crazy and clearly over the top. This is the only thing I regret. Otherwise, 3 million people using magic kicking out a whole bunch of non native out of half of the USA doesn't disturb me that much. The awakening is an event that's supposed to be above any other in the world humanity. Such a population displacement is huge, but fits the context…

Edit: @sk8bcn: I looked at the original version, and your translation is quite good. The demographics they use are clearly wrong. The retcon I would do would only be a change in these numbers…

Well, your ability to suspend disbelief exceeds mine. I like my fiction to make a little more sense than this.

What exactly breaks it?

Overwhelming magical warfare surely could give those nations 20 to 30 years of peace for them to have a huge population growth. Going from 5 millions since some of them would accept people of partial native ascent, they could well be 20 millions by 2060.

His ability to suspend disbelief is orders of magnitude greater than mine. MANY orders of magnitude.


I get what FASA was after when they wrote Shadowrun... I mean they had this big book of tropes and when one of the designers asked the Lead Designer, "Hey boss which one of these should we use?" His reply was to pick up the book, look through a few pages and then "All of them."


I understand that a divided United States makes more sense for a 'Runner to disappear into, but honestly, some of the ideas that FASA had were just plain dumb. Case in point, the Caribbean League. A bunch of small islands are going to militarily contest the CAS? I would love to know what drugs FASA was on when they thought of that garbage.

That purely comes down to what resources the CAS had available at the time and what responses it could or even wanted to muster. History is full of far stranger events, I can't find the actual thing now but someone once did an experiment with taking actual historical events, dressing them up as fantasy fiction and presenting them to people and found several were discounted as impossible or massively improbably because X group would obviously respond in Y way.

The CAS must have had enough firepower that the UCAS didn't want to fight them. If they didn't then the UCAS would have just stomped on them hard.

Also we are talking the Caribbean Islands. Their "military" might be some PT boats.

Because you need ORDERS OF MAGNITUDES of suspension of disbelief differential to go from "magic is back, there are goblins trolls and elves" to "american natives using overwhelming magic firepower only they master kick out non-natives from the least populated part of North America". Really, that's such a huge step to take.

Biggest difference Freudgo, is that magic doesn't exist in reality and therefore anything that happens because of magic is OK. Who's to say what would happen if magic DID come back?


Peoples of the world, governments, and technology on the other hand are KNOWN quantities and therefore we know how they'll react. We have an idea of where technology is going and can understand that having someone saying in 2050 we'll discover warp drive is asinine. Governments are pretty much the same way.