Full Version: Shadowrun 6
Yeah, that's far more Big Eyes Small Mouth than Shadowrun
QUOTE (Trillinon @ Jul 9 2018, 07:47 PM) 
When I first started playing SR4, I very much liked Attribute + Skill with a fixed target number. I even like dice pool bonuses, but I really dislike dice pool penalties. They're cumbersome at the table. I also think that the glitch mechanic doesn't work well with the size of most dice pools. It just doesn't come up often enough to justify its existence. Limits are an okay mechanic when it comes to gear effecting dice pools, but they're yet another thing to think about with every roll and the calculation for natural limits make running the game more difficult.
I'd be interested in seeing something like this: Your dice pool equals your skill + positive modifiers (mostly gear related, like smartlink). All rolls have a limit equal to a linked attribute or a gear attribute, whichever is lower.
The target number is slightly variable to handle conditional modifiers, borrowing the concept of Advantage/Disadvantage from D&D 5E. Normally, the target number is 5. With advantage, it's 4. With disadvantage, it's 6. It never gets higher or lower than that.
Then reduce the number of attributes. I think you could reduce it down to three: Body, Mind, Essence. But some would probably be dissatisfied with that.
I'd be interested in seeing something like this: Your dice pool equals your skill + positive modifiers (mostly gear related, like smartlink). All rolls have a limit equal to a linked attribute or a gear attribute, whichever is lower.
The target number is slightly variable to handle conditional modifiers, borrowing the concept of Advantage/Disadvantage from D&D 5E. Normally, the target number is 5. With advantage, it's 4. With disadvantage, it's 6. It never gets higher or lower than that.
Then reduce the number of attributes. I think you could reduce it down to three: Body, Mind, Essence. But some would probably be dissatisfied with that.
Reducing Attributes that far seems unnecessary, as the number of attributes generally isn't a problem. (if you don't go wild and do over 10)
They are chosen once, only changed ever so slightly over time, and for the entire life of the character, they sit front and center on the sheet, where they are easily found.
Attributes are one of the easiest systems of RPG's, which is why they have been around since the chainmail age, basically.
Older Editions of Shadowrun weren't an attribute-based game however, but instead a skill-based one, with attributes (mostly) having passive effects on learning speed, defaulting and such like.
I quite like the old system.
I do not think it would be unrelated to Shadowrun, combining a variable dice pool with a variable TN would be mixing 3rd and 4th Edition, but that would make it more complicated than either one.
QUOTE (Bertramn @ Jul 12 2018, 01:20 AM)
Reducing Attributes that far seems unnecessary, as the number of attributes generally isn't a problem. (if you don't go wild and do over 10)
They are chosen once, only changed ever so slightly over time, and for the entire life of the character, they sit front and center on the sheet, where they are easily found.
Attributes are one of the easiest systems of RPG's, which is why they have been around since the chainmail age, basically.
They are chosen once, only changed ever so slightly over time, and for the entire life of the character, they sit front and center on the sheet, where they are easily found.
Attributes are one of the easiest systems of RPG's, which is why they have been around since the chainmail age, basically.
They're also somewhat bad game design that doesn't add meaningful choices to play. Especially in Shadowrun, where they don't really gate any character choices, but are essentially just an alternate scaling for buying dice pool. Either spend Karma to up the skills linked to that attribute, or to up the attribute, whichever is cheaper.
A couple of the stats could be gotten ridden of. Reaction and Agility can be combined and Body and Strength can be combined. Before anyone says anything I know that gives us pretty much D&D stats, but there was no reason to split off Reaction from Agility or Strength from Body.
QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Jul 12 2018, 12:59 PM)
A couple of the stats could be gotten ridden of. Reaction and Agility can be combined and Body and Strength can be combined. Before anyone says anything I know that gives us pretty much D&D stats, but there was no reason to split off Reaction from Agility or Strength from Body.
I do agree about it. Especially since Body and Strength are very often highly correlated. A reaction attribute based of intelligence and quickness as in SR3 was actually fine too. And close-combat skills should be related to the fucking new Body-Strength attribute also.
QUOTE
They're also somewhat bad game design that doesn't add meaningful choices to play. Especially in Shadowrun, where they don't really gate any character choices, but are essentially just an alternate scaling for buying dice pool. Either spend Karma to up the skills linked to that attribute, or to up the attribute, whichever is cheaper.
That's true only past SR4. It's just a mistake to have an Attribute + Skill dice pool in a game like Shadowrun. The way SR3 used to manage attributes was much smarter and sensible. They affected the game in much different way, and so you had a lot of meaningful choices to do at chargen and during character evolution.
Strength and Body depends on what you're doing with them.
One was resilience to damage, shrugging toxins and used to determine some parts of healing etc. The other was a measure of lifting, hitting and physical exertion power, not resilience. Mixing them together means that Muscle cyberware for example makes you harder to hurt as well as hitting harder which kind of removes from Bone Lacing and Dermal Plating because it's going to auto trump both of them unless you add an extra layer of "Only for" rules.
One was resilience to damage, shrugging toxins and used to determine some parts of healing etc. The other was a measure of lifting, hitting and physical exertion power, not resilience. Mixing them together means that Muscle cyberware for example makes you harder to hurt as well as hitting harder which kind of removes from Bone Lacing and Dermal Plating because it's going to auto trump both of them unless you add an extra layer of "Only for" rules.
QUOTE (freudqo @ Jul 6 2018, 05:53 AM)
No, it should be skill alone. I never understood why they included attribute in the first place, probably just to copy other systems. Having individual skills was fine and easy enough.
It was never totally individual skills, you always had combat pool, spell pool, hacking pool, social pool, rigging pool. There were plenty of places where pools didnt apply but there were plenty where they did. Even when sorcery pool was just your sorcery skill you still rolled your force as part of your dice pool so you essentially had attribute+skill it was just skill+force (1e/2e) or the same rules as SR4 hacking.
One advantage to rebooting the lore is it gives an opportunity to revisit some of the classic storylines (Harlequin, Bug City etc) similarly to what WOTC has done with Curse Of Strahd, Storm King's Thunder and so forth. The old players get a nostalgia high and newer players get to experience key pieces of the lore. I think that strategy has been a key piece of 5E D&D's success.
QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Jul 12 2018, 06:59 AM)
A couple of the stats could be gotten ridden of. Reaction and Agility can be combined and Body and Strength can be combined. Before anyone says anything I know that gives us pretty much D&D stats, but there was no reason to split off Reaction from Agility or Strength from Body.
You mean bring back Quickness?
That said, the more I think about it, the more I think SR would benefit from going to 3 stats. Physical/Mental/Social.
I liked the suggestion for having the same rules in the matrix and in the real world. Perhaps you could even use the same skills in both worlds.
E.g. you can fight IC with a virtual gun and the firearms skill. Cybercombat could replace for example every combat skill - while Hacking replacing say all social skills.
So the decker would have an advantage in the matrix, - but the entire party can go on a matrix run and shot things. VR should feel just as real as the real world. It is a big part of the fluff and in gameplay, it does not feel like that. Once the entire party goes on matrix runs it becomes more interesting and virtual reality starts feeling real. E.g. some of the runs can be entirely in VR and the mages need to work on physical skills to have something to do. Have the deck or the decker skills give bonuses - perhaps even large bonuses but don't make them a must to be effective in VR. Perhaps a cyberdeck simply makes you much faster than a comlink user or provides better armor, it's rating as a flat out dice pool bonus to all matrix actions. Something simple - and that matrix would have exactly the same rules otherwise.
E.g. To hack into a server you climb through a window, or break in through the door or talk the guard into letting you get in with fake credentials. Just like you would break into a real building. No need to learn new rules just because it is a digital host.
E.g. you can fight IC with a virtual gun and the firearms skill. Cybercombat could replace for example every combat skill - while Hacking replacing say all social skills.
So the decker would have an advantage in the matrix, - but the entire party can go on a matrix run and shot things. VR should feel just as real as the real world. It is a big part of the fluff and in gameplay, it does not feel like that. Once the entire party goes on matrix runs it becomes more interesting and virtual reality starts feeling real. E.g. some of the runs can be entirely in VR and the mages need to work on physical skills to have something to do. Have the deck or the decker skills give bonuses - perhaps even large bonuses but don't make them a must to be effective in VR. Perhaps a cyberdeck simply makes you much faster than a comlink user or provides better armor, it's rating as a flat out dice pool bonus to all matrix actions. Something simple - and that matrix would have exactly the same rules otherwise.
E.g. To hack into a server you climb through a window, or break in through the door or talk the guard into letting you get in with fake credentials. Just like you would break into a real building. No need to learn new rules just because it is a digital host.
QUOTE (tete @ Jul 14 2018, 08:06 AM)
It was never totally individual skills, you always had combat pool, spell pool, hacking pool, social pool, rigging pool. There were plenty of places where pools didnt apply but there were plenty where they did. Even when sorcery pool was just your sorcery skill you still rolled your force as part of your dice pool so you essentially had attribute+skill it was just skill+force (1e/2e) or the same rules as SR4 hacking.
Yeah, and it was absolutely not equivalent to attribute + skill as was suggested in the quote I was answering to.
The pool mechanics in SR1-2-3 relied on tactical pools, which was a reserve of dice you had to dispatch on several tests when acting in combat. A sam shooting 6 times during one combat round had an average of 2 dice to add to his skill of 8 or 9 per shot. And that was when he didn't want to keep some to dodge or to resist damage.
Just a small thing I'd like to see in a prospective Shadowrun 6. Toning down of the gear porn. I personally have no problem tricking out a gun. I sometimes need take a paragraph to note every modification, attachment, and accessory I've added to my main gun, and that's before I write down the 10 types of ammo I've got ready to go. I don't know if that's really something that should be in the game, though. Do we need more than one type of holdout? Do we need 15 pistols, only 4 of which are good? Ares Predator V, Ruger Super Warhawk, Ares Light Fire 75, Colt Government 2066 for NPCs are the 4, for the .5 of you wondering. That's before you get to splat books where you've got about a 80:20 split between About-As-Good-As-Core : Incredible-But-Not-Available-At-Char-Gen. Do there need to be 7 different damage codes for 15 pistols? I understand that part of it is because many of these weapons have legacies so they're kept in the game and given specific entries to make them stand out, but if you want to talk about trimming down the rules then trimming out the redundant weapons from the game is a good place to start.
Another place to clean up the rules - Getting rid of pointless casual language where it isn't needed or wanted.
For exampe, This:
Should be this:
There are probably countless entries, like the one above, for completely uninteresting pieces of equipment, like the one above. It's kind of cute and mostly innoffensive, but if we're going to have gear porn I really don't want to be searching within a paragraph for the rules for a random weapon accessory.
Another place to clean up the rules - Getting rid of pointless casual language where it isn't needed or wanted.
For exampe, This:
QUOTE
Concealed quick-draw holster (accessory): What more do you want a holster to do? You get to reduce the Concealability modifier of your weapon by 1 while thethreshold to quick-draw a holstered weapon drops by 1.
It won’t fire the thing for you, though, so buckle down and do it yourself. The holster does not take any slots in your weapon. Please excuse our compulsion to point out fairly obvious stuff like that.
It won’t fire the thing for you, though, so buckle down and do it yourself. The holster does not take any slots in your weapon. Please excuse our compulsion to point out fairly obvious stuff like that.
Should be this:
QUOTE
Concealed quick-draw holster (accessory): Reduces the concealability modifier of your weapon by 1 and reduces the threshold to quick-draw a holstered weapon by 1.
There are probably countless entries, like the one above, for completely uninteresting pieces of equipment, like the one above. It's kind of cute and mostly innoffensive, but if we're going to have gear porn I really don't want to be searching within a paragraph for the rules for a random weapon accessory.
Yep. Quirky commentary is for the shadowtalk, game text should be clear, concise, and unambiguous.
QUOTE (SquirrelDude @ Jul 16 2018, 06:21 AM)
It's kind of cute and mostly innoffensive, but if we're going to have gear porn I really don't want to be searching within a paragraph for the rules for a random weapon accessory.
No, it's not cute, it's ridiculous, and I could do without the few times it's offensive. I remember having here a heated discussion about the description of the Dodge Scoot in SR5 being something no self-respecting shadowrunner would be caught dead on.
As a reminder, this is the description you could find in SR3 for the concealable holster (BBB):
"Concealable Holster: Custom-fitted to the wearer, the holster can be designed for wear over the hip, in the small of the back,under the arm, on the forearm or on the ankle. It adds +2 to the Concealability of a pistol."
And for the quick-draw version (CC):
"This holster is specifically designed so that a weapon may be quickly pulled and fired. A character who attempts to quick draw (see p. 107, SR3) a pistol-sized weapon from a quick draw holster ignores the +2 modifier for using an improper holster. The quick draw holster is available in standard and concealable models (the latter also acts as a concealed holster, p. 280, SR3)."
This is rather clear and to the point, with both fluff and mechanical description useful for the player. How did we get to the agonizing SR5 gear section? Why would you even pay people to rewrite the gear section in another style while you just have to correct it for new rules, which means spending less money on writing that you could spend on the general quality of your product or making it more affordable?
On the first point, I agree though, there was already problems with SR3 gear section containing too many weapons while only a few were mechanically the best. One should really think of ways to limit the accessorization and the interchangeability of weapons' part and ammunitions.
There are reasons to include "Mechanially inferior" weapons in a gear list.
The SR3 weapons list in the back of Cannon Companion is 3 pages. This encompasses pretty much everything from top of the line mil spec firearms to cheap pistols carried by all but the scivviest gangers in the Barrens.
The "best" heavy pistol mechanically? Savalette Guardian probably but it's 50% more expensive and harder / slower to lay hands on than an Ares Predator III which comes with the top of the line SOTA Smartgun2 system integrally. Drop 100nuyen off that and increase the likely hood of getting one through "channels" you've got the ubiquitous Ares Predator II with integral Smartgun. Don't have the Smartlink Cyberware? Want a heavy pistol that can compete with the Predator but without the bulk? Trying to shave a few nuyen off your security budget but still want to hurt a troll? Then the Browning series is your friend.
Providing security at a glitzy social affair? Doing a run at the party of a sim sense starlet? Need something that doesn't scream Street but rather Cultured Professional? Then your after the Morissey Alta or the Morrisey Elite, both discreet and both tres chic.
Then there's a few guns filling niches in between, and that's just heavy pistols.
The point is that less is not always more. WoD uses the Light Pistol, Heavy Pistol, SMG, Shotgun, Combat Shotgun, Rifle, Assault Rifle one page list, and it's fine because most of the time the PCs don't care massively about gear. Except for the games where they do and so you get Expanded weapons lists, Device Firearms, Custom Fire Arms, an extended list of melee weapons etc.
Shadowrun for most of its editions has been fairly simulationist in its scope. It needs those options to work. If you went for minimalist gear Tri Stat system (which again is how BESM does it) the Street Sam becomes.
Physical- High and Cyber Boosted
Mental - Average maybe Cyber Boosted
Spirit- very Low
Bonus to Initiative, Damage Res, Attack, Melee Damage
Has sword, heavy pistol, SMG, hand razors.
The reason stuff like BESM and other games like it work is because it had no base reference apart from Anime where the player takes a loose "power" and then defines it down. Or the GM uses it as a building block to create the world and the stuff that can be used in it.
What we have here is a detailed world with a very solid lore and series of concepts and stripping stuff down doesn't always make for a good game set of options.
The SR3 weapons list in the back of Cannon Companion is 3 pages. This encompasses pretty much everything from top of the line mil spec firearms to cheap pistols carried by all but the scivviest gangers in the Barrens.
The "best" heavy pistol mechanically? Savalette Guardian probably but it's 50% more expensive and harder / slower to lay hands on than an Ares Predator III which comes with the top of the line SOTA Smartgun2 system integrally. Drop 100nuyen off that and increase the likely hood of getting one through "channels" you've got the ubiquitous Ares Predator II with integral Smartgun. Don't have the Smartlink Cyberware? Want a heavy pistol that can compete with the Predator but without the bulk? Trying to shave a few nuyen off your security budget but still want to hurt a troll? Then the Browning series is your friend.
Providing security at a glitzy social affair? Doing a run at the party of a sim sense starlet? Need something that doesn't scream Street but rather Cultured Professional? Then your after the Morissey Alta or the Morrisey Elite, both discreet and both tres chic.
Then there's a few guns filling niches in between, and that's just heavy pistols.
The point is that less is not always more. WoD uses the Light Pistol, Heavy Pistol, SMG, Shotgun, Combat Shotgun, Rifle, Assault Rifle one page list, and it's fine because most of the time the PCs don't care massively about gear. Except for the games where they do and so you get Expanded weapons lists, Device Firearms, Custom Fire Arms, an extended list of melee weapons etc.
Shadowrun for most of its editions has been fairly simulationist in its scope. It needs those options to work. If you went for minimalist gear Tri Stat system (which again is how BESM does it) the Street Sam becomes.
Physical- High and Cyber Boosted
Mental - Average maybe Cyber Boosted
Spirit- very Low
Bonus to Initiative, Damage Res, Attack, Melee Damage
Has sword, heavy pistol, SMG, hand razors.
The reason stuff like BESM and other games like it work is because it had no base reference apart from Anime where the player takes a loose "power" and then defines it down. Or the GM uses it as a building block to create the world and the stuff that can be used in it.
What we have here is a detailed world with a very solid lore and series of concepts and stripping stuff down doesn't always make for a good game set of options.
QUOTE (Moirdryd @ Jul 16 2018, 11:28 AM)
Then there's a few guns filling niches in between, and that's just heavy pistols.
You actually chose the most versatile category.
If you look at assault rifle, there are virtually no reason to take anything but an Ares Alpha. It has more ammo, all firing mode, smarlink, recoil compensation and so on up the wazoo. You could want an AK-97 because it's a bit cheaper for a special occasion, but that's really stretching it. Or the HVAR if you're really that kind of person. That's, like, 2 and a half out of 11.
The mechanical differences with the shotgun could make it interesting to use a shotgun rather than the ARES Alpha. In which case no shotgun have any mechanical advantages on the SPAS-22. They literally exist for no fraking reason. So that's one out of 6, because I can admit the Street Sweeper might have some vague kind of flavor.
You can remove the light pistol as a concept (14 guns out). All those weapons have absolutely no use, since, except the Walther PB-120, you can find heavy pistol with the same concealibility. Frankly, that doesn't even qualify it for second round, because if you need this kind of concealability, just take a Hold Out. Of which you can find 7 fraking models. Yes, seven, for the nichest of nichest applications.No comment.
Now, let's talk SMGs. So you want an SMG, because you discover that they have the same kind of concealability as heavy pistols… Yeah… Why not… probably one of them is the best (like the Ingram Smartgun, or the sinlenced HK…). Frankly I have no idean, people just don't use them, and I'm fine with it because they are slowly disappearing from the real world, and there might be a reason for that.
And the Savalette Guardian is not the best, it's the ARES Predator III. Then you can tke the Morrissey for discretion, or the Slivergun or the thunderbolt if you really want BF. That's 4 interesting heavy pistols our of 15 (I take of the 2 other predators). The price difference you quote actually don't exist, because a few hundred dollars shouldn't be a thing for most shadowrunners, at least in SR3.
And that's not even factoring the possibility to modify weapons.
It's probably too much a change, and it would certainly be weird for people to open a shadowrun book and not see "Ares Predator V" in the pistol section, but I would get rid of specific weapons entirely. I'd suggest just having weapon grades with set stats, costs and examples of what would go for those examples. Have around 4 ratings of weapons (Street, Service, Professional, Prime?). Not every class of weapon would have every rating. There wouldn't be highest level holdouts, and there wouldn't be level 1 (or 2 or 3) lasers. I came up with something in about 5 minutes, and I still think it's overly complicated, but I wanted to try and create a system that abstracted it, but also mostly encompassed everything currently available.
To use the Machine Pistol/SMG table to show how I would imagine it looking.
Machine Pistols
Street (E.G. Ceska Black Scorpion, Steyr TMP)
Acc 4 Dmg 6 AP - Mode SA/BF RC 0 Ammo 30 Avail XR
+1 Free Attachment
Service (Onotari Arms Equalizer, Ultimax 70)
Acc 5 Dmg 6 AP - Mode SA/BF RC 1 Ammo 30 Avail XR
+Laser Sight, 1 Free Attachment
Professional (e.g. Ares Crusader, Fianchetti Military 100)
Acc 5 Dmg 7 AP - Mode SA/BF RC 1 Ammo 40 Avail XR
+Smartgun or Gas Vent 2 or Suppressor, 1 Free Attachment
Prime (e.g. PPSK Collapsible Machine Pistol)
Acc 5 Dmg 7 AP - Mode SA/BF RC 2 Ammo 40 Avail XF
+Smartgun, Gas Vent 2 or Suppressor, 1 Free Attachment
SMGs
Street (e.g. Uzi IV, Krime Spree)
Acc 4 Dmg 7 AP - Mode SA/BF RC 1 Ammo 30 Avail XR
+1 Free Attachment
Service (Colt Cobra TZ-120, Cavalier Arms Gladius)
Acc 5 Dmg 7 AP - Mode BF/FA RC 1 Ammo 40 Avail XR
+Laser Sight or Folding Stock, 1 Free attachment
Professional (e.g. Ingram Smartgun X, SCK Model 100)
Acc 5 Dmg 8 AP - Mode SA/BF/FA RC 2 Ammo 40 Avail XR
+Smartgun, Gas vent 2 or Suppressor, 1 Free attachment
Prime (e.g. FN P93 Praetor, HK Urban Combat)
Acc 6 Dmg 8 AP - Mode SA/BF/FA RC 2 Ammo 50 Avail XF
+Smartgun, Gas Vent 3 or Suppressor, 2 Free attachments
On attachments: Prime would get the largest list of free stuff, and Street would get the smallest. Prime could get stuff like - Anti MAD scanner, collapsible. Street couldn't even get a smartgun system. You'd probably put an additional limit on how many additional attachments weapons could take. 1 for lowest level -> 4 for highest or something. Also, accessories (Clips, Slings, Holsters) =/= attachments (Vents, Suppressors, Stocks), and should be listed separately. Just to avoid confusion.
You'd lose some weapon differentiation like ammo counts, and recoil compensation, and firing modes, and I don't care. I don't value that stuff very highly. If you value it, "attachments" could be things like - Lose 1/2 ammo capacity to gain Full Auto capability. Call them "modifications" instead of attachments.
One last thing, make the slide rail mechanic the default for every gun (maybe, MAYBE, not pistols). I can buy airsoft guns with sliderails. Get out of here with needing to buy those as separate modifications for 2600 nuyen assault rifles.
To use the Machine Pistol/SMG table to show how I would imagine it looking.
Machine Pistols
Street (E.G. Ceska Black Scorpion, Steyr TMP)
Acc 4 Dmg 6 AP - Mode SA/BF RC 0 Ammo 30 Avail XR
+1 Free Attachment
Service (Onotari Arms Equalizer, Ultimax 70)
Acc 5 Dmg 6 AP - Mode SA/BF RC 1 Ammo 30 Avail XR
+Laser Sight, 1 Free Attachment
Professional (e.g. Ares Crusader, Fianchetti Military 100)
Acc 5 Dmg 7 AP - Mode SA/BF RC 1 Ammo 40 Avail XR
+Smartgun or Gas Vent 2 or Suppressor, 1 Free Attachment
Prime (e.g. PPSK Collapsible Machine Pistol)
Acc 5 Dmg 7 AP - Mode SA/BF RC 2 Ammo 40 Avail XF
+Smartgun, Gas Vent 2 or Suppressor, 1 Free Attachment
SMGs
Street (e.g. Uzi IV, Krime Spree)
Acc 4 Dmg 7 AP - Mode SA/BF RC 1 Ammo 30 Avail XR
+1 Free Attachment
Service (Colt Cobra TZ-120, Cavalier Arms Gladius)
Acc 5 Dmg 7 AP - Mode BF/FA RC 1 Ammo 40 Avail XR
+Laser Sight or Folding Stock, 1 Free attachment
Professional (e.g. Ingram Smartgun X, SCK Model 100)
Acc 5 Dmg 8 AP - Mode SA/BF/FA RC 2 Ammo 40 Avail XR
+Smartgun, Gas vent 2 or Suppressor, 1 Free attachment
Prime (e.g. FN P93 Praetor, HK Urban Combat)
Acc 6 Dmg 8 AP - Mode SA/BF/FA RC 2 Ammo 50 Avail XF
+Smartgun, Gas Vent 3 or Suppressor, 2 Free attachments
On attachments: Prime would get the largest list of free stuff, and Street would get the smallest. Prime could get stuff like - Anti MAD scanner, collapsible. Street couldn't even get a smartgun system. You'd probably put an additional limit on how many additional attachments weapons could take. 1 for lowest level -> 4 for highest or something. Also, accessories (Clips, Slings, Holsters) =/= attachments (Vents, Suppressors, Stocks), and should be listed separately. Just to avoid confusion.
You'd lose some weapon differentiation like ammo counts, and recoil compensation, and firing modes, and I don't care. I don't value that stuff very highly. If you value it, "attachments" could be things like - Lose 1/2 ammo capacity to gain Full Auto capability. Call them "modifications" instead of attachments.
One last thing, make the slide rail mechanic the default for every gun (maybe, MAYBE, not pistols). I can buy airsoft guns with sliderails. Get out of here with needing to buy those as separate modifications for 2600 nuyen assault rifles.
I think this is generally a good idea, but the problem most people don't realize is the granularity shadowrun provides, whether with TN (SR1-2-3) or hits (SR4-5), is generally quite low.
The original authors wanted you to be able to equip your weapon with a minutia of accessories that in real life provide mostly comfort (when they are not outright stupid…), that in the game would give you huge bonus on your TN or your dice pool. The only time I remember having to reload a gun is because I had chosen a character using the Ruger Thunderbolt for essentially fluff reasons (she was not a sam originally). And this cost me only one aiming action because dumping and loading a clip is a free + a simple action. That's another example of how things went wrong. The accuracy of both goons and shadowrunner is way higher than one could expect in most situations.
It is a mistake to think one can provide such levels of firefight details so as to resolve individual shots in semi-auto. The worst is that it's a mistake that was solved for hand to hand combat way before in various games, and even in shadowrun. That's to say you don't declare "I hit him" and the opponent declare "I parry". Melee declaration is supposed to be starting a series of strikes, parries, dodges until one strikes a decisive blow. The same should have gone with firefights, except the authors wanted to emulate the use of bows, crossbows or muskets in then popular medieval fantastic RPGs. That's to say, you fire an arrow, while your friends are declaring a series of blows, hacks, slash, parries, dodges, etc.
And this led to the terrible idea of having 3 seconds rounds.
It's not so easy to provide an alternative without departing a lot from the shadowrun books while keeping the general mood. I had tried, but never had the occasion to playtest, to write some rules where instead of declaring simple actions of I shoot you shoot, you declare that you fire a bunch of bullets. In general, the idea was to give the players meaningful tactical options while abstracting the shooting phase. To sum up, you could declare that you fired a bunch of bullets, choosing between 3 general quantities: a few, average, and a lot. The more bullets you shoot, the more chances you have to hit your enemy, but with diminishing returns, and of course depleting your ammunitions. You can decide to be accurate and reduce the number of bullets you shoot while still upping your chances, but that means being more static and an easier target.
In this systems, you can define a few classes of weapons, with a few options such as smartlinks, with enough advantages and flaws so as to give players meaningful choices to do.
The original authors wanted you to be able to equip your weapon with a minutia of accessories that in real life provide mostly comfort (when they are not outright stupid…), that in the game would give you huge bonus on your TN or your dice pool. The only time I remember having to reload a gun is because I had chosen a character using the Ruger Thunderbolt for essentially fluff reasons (she was not a sam originally). And this cost me only one aiming action because dumping and loading a clip is a free + a simple action. That's another example of how things went wrong. The accuracy of both goons and shadowrunner is way higher than one could expect in most situations.
It is a mistake to think one can provide such levels of firefight details so as to resolve individual shots in semi-auto. The worst is that it's a mistake that was solved for hand to hand combat way before in various games, and even in shadowrun. That's to say you don't declare "I hit him" and the opponent declare "I parry". Melee declaration is supposed to be starting a series of strikes, parries, dodges until one strikes a decisive blow. The same should have gone with firefights, except the authors wanted to emulate the use of bows, crossbows or muskets in then popular medieval fantastic RPGs. That's to say, you fire an arrow, while your friends are declaring a series of blows, hacks, slash, parries, dodges, etc.
And this led to the terrible idea of having 3 seconds rounds.
It's not so easy to provide an alternative without departing a lot from the shadowrun books while keeping the general mood. I had tried, but never had the occasion to playtest, to write some rules where instead of declaring simple actions of I shoot you shoot, you declare that you fire a bunch of bullets. In general, the idea was to give the players meaningful tactical options while abstracting the shooting phase. To sum up, you could declare that you fired a bunch of bullets, choosing between 3 general quantities: a few, average, and a lot. The more bullets you shoot, the more chances you have to hit your enemy, but with diminishing returns, and of course depleting your ammunitions. You can decide to be accurate and reduce the number of bullets you shoot while still upping your chances, but that means being more static and an easier target.
In this systems, you can define a few classes of weapons, with a few options such as smartlinks, with enough advantages and flaws so as to give players meaningful choices to do.
What is being described here already exists.
It's called Feng Shui 2nd Edition. It's an awesome game but Shadowrun it isn't.
It's called Feng Shui 2nd Edition. It's an awesome game but Shadowrun it isn't.
The whole reason why AGI and REA was split from Quickness; and INT and LOG was split from Intelligence, was to make it so they you have to have an offensive and defensive stat.
Offensive stats are STR, AGI, LOG, CHA
Defensive stats are BOD, REA, INT, WIL
I think binarywraith's idea of 3 stats makes sense, but maybe make it 6, to have offensive and defensive versions of those stats. Its actually reminds me a bit of how WoD does it. But it makes sense as those are the basic forms of play. Street Sams and Adepts focus on physical stats. Deckers and mages focus on mental stats. And faces in all forms focus on social.
So if you make a jock street sam, maybe they're good physical offense and defense, and even good social offense, but not so good on the mental offense/defense and also weak to social attacks, showing they're kind of impulsive but have a forceful personality.
Maybe a nerd decker has great mental stats, but is really guarded socially with a high social defense dice, but not so good at explaining his plans which is why he has low social offense dice.
I don't know, something like that.
Offensive stats are STR, AGI, LOG, CHA
Defensive stats are BOD, REA, INT, WIL
I think binarywraith's idea of 3 stats makes sense, but maybe make it 6, to have offensive and defensive versions of those stats. Its actually reminds me a bit of how WoD does it. But it makes sense as those are the basic forms of play. Street Sams and Adepts focus on physical stats. Deckers and mages focus on mental stats. And faces in all forms focus on social.
So if you make a jock street sam, maybe they're good physical offense and defense, and even good social offense, but not so good on the mental offense/defense and also weak to social attacks, showing they're kind of impulsive but have a forceful personality.
Maybe a nerd decker has great mental stats, but is really guarded socially with a high social defense dice, but not so good at explaining his plans which is why he has low social offense dice.
I don't know, something like that.
QUOTE (Emperor Tippy @ Apr 27 2017, 04:47 PM)
Where do you get the idea that background counts stack? A cyberzombie produces a background count of 4 - not +4 or -4 but 4. Whether you have one or one thousand cyberzombies crammed in specific area the effect is a background count of 4. That reduces the force of quickened spells by 4.
Your "initiate up to essence" rule breaks point 1 on my list; it makes the rules and the setting not function together because it means you can't have any of the truly spectacular characters.
And yes, I am fully aware.
Then your players are being bitchy or your GM's are being stingy. Every time you go on a run you get a point of karma for surviving it, every time you achieve the runs objective you get another point, not being an idiot gets you another point, pushing the story/taking initiative gets you another point.
So let's look at a fairly basic run. Mr. Johnson want's you to deliver Mr. Pops (UCAS SIN 3432-5432-4350-3242) to him.
Run #1: Find out where Mr. Pops is and build a dossier on him. That is two points of karma assuming you manage it (hacker does some matrix digging, mage gets an astral look at him and drops a watcher spirit or two, face starts getting a little cozy with his acquaintances, street sam scopes out physical security. Since everyone is playing smart you are looking at another point. Now if they dig into the Johnson a bit to figure out that he is really the best friend of Mr. Pops ex wife's brother well then that is another point. So right there is 4 karma for everyone with a run that would take all of twenty minutes or so of play time (if that).
Run #2: Now that you know the information you need to create a scenario to grab Mr. Pops. So the Hacker and Face work together to set up a couple dummy companies (one that would have legitimate business with Mr. Pops and a bodyguard service) while the Rigger and Sam go and jack an appropriate car/ set up the physical parts of the deception and grab while the Mage does something. This is another 3 karma for everyone (and perhaps 4). Again it takes 20 minutes or so of table time to play.
Run #3: Everything is set up so you make the grab. The Rigger is handling the car while the street sam acts as body guard and Mr. Pops is driven to the Johnson. The hacker is erasing the data trail for the whole run while the mage is preventing anyone from tracking Mr. Pops with magic. Another 3-4 karma.
Run #4: Turns out that Mr. Johnson is a infiltration and combat specialist adept with a few bound spirits on hand and that he is supposed to kill the team and Mr. Pops. Objectives are to escape without any of the team dying, keep Mr. Pops alive, and figure out what the real story is. Manage any two and you are looking at two points of karma for every runner that survived, probably with another point or two depending on how things go and what the players do. Digging turns up that the Adept was a known Renraku deniable asset and that Mr. Pops stands to inherit a controlling interest in some corp Renraku wants if Pop's uncle kicks the bucket (and he is on his last legs receiving medical care) but (like his Uncle) he is unlikely to agree and if he is removed then the next individual in line to inherit does and she (a cousin) has strong Renraku connections.
Run #5: Figure out how to get Mr. Pops out from under Renraku's gun, preferably without Renraku getting the corp. The hacker and face get to work on the investigation end while the rest of the team works to keep Mr. Pops hidden and alive. The digging turns up that the cousin is actually pushing all of this and that it is not really Renraku as a whole that wants to acquire the corp but the piddling little subsidiary of a subsidiary of Renraku that is controlled by the cousins current boyfriend. And it seems that Mr. Boyfriend is being mighty free with Renraku deniable assets and has been materially misrepresenting the matter to the adept. If the players captured the adept or he got away then providing him the info will get him to drop the matter as he goes and acquaints Mr. Boyfriend and cousin with the fact that Renraku does not appreciate people using corporate assets for their own ends without authorization - indeed it has a fatal dislike for the practice. If the players managed to kill the adept but have any good Renraku connections then they can ensure that corporate learns what was going on and things get taken care of. In either case the run is over as is this story line and the players get another 4-6 karma. Dead adept and no Renraku connections means that the players need to find some way to remove the cousin and boyfriend from play while also getting the blame for the dead Renraku assets pushed off onto someone else, which means another run or two.
So there, a nice little nights worth of play. It had five separate runs in it that each should have generated karma, and assuming that the players resolved everything nicely then they should have cleared around 20 karma for the night.
---
And if you are trying to get to top tier power levels in anything like a short time scale (i.e. not decades or longer worth of game time) then you aren't worrying about gaining karma from runs or the GM's awards. You are doing things like ripping it out of the now cooling corpses of your enemies (or random passers by).
This might be a little much, but better than the situation now. My biggest beef with SR any edition, is lack of advancement...Your "initiate up to essence" rule breaks point 1 on my list; it makes the rules and the setting not function together because it means you can't have any of the truly spectacular characters.
And yes, I am fully aware.
Then your players are being bitchy or your GM's are being stingy. Every time you go on a run you get a point of karma for surviving it, every time you achieve the runs objective you get another point, not being an idiot gets you another point, pushing the story/taking initiative gets you another point.
So let's look at a fairly basic run. Mr. Johnson want's you to deliver Mr. Pops (UCAS SIN 3432-5432-4350-3242) to him.
Run #1: Find out where Mr. Pops is and build a dossier on him. That is two points of karma assuming you manage it (hacker does some matrix digging, mage gets an astral look at him and drops a watcher spirit or two, face starts getting a little cozy with his acquaintances, street sam scopes out physical security. Since everyone is playing smart you are looking at another point. Now if they dig into the Johnson a bit to figure out that he is really the best friend of Mr. Pops ex wife's brother well then that is another point. So right there is 4 karma for everyone with a run that would take all of twenty minutes or so of play time (if that).
Run #2: Now that you know the information you need to create a scenario to grab Mr. Pops. So the Hacker and Face work together to set up a couple dummy companies (one that would have legitimate business with Mr. Pops and a bodyguard service) while the Rigger and Sam go and jack an appropriate car/ set up the physical parts of the deception and grab while the Mage does something. This is another 3 karma for everyone (and perhaps 4). Again it takes 20 minutes or so of table time to play.
Run #3: Everything is set up so you make the grab. The Rigger is handling the car while the street sam acts as body guard and Mr. Pops is driven to the Johnson. The hacker is erasing the data trail for the whole run while the mage is preventing anyone from tracking Mr. Pops with magic. Another 3-4 karma.
Run #4: Turns out that Mr. Johnson is a infiltration and combat specialist adept with a few bound spirits on hand and that he is supposed to kill the team and Mr. Pops. Objectives are to escape without any of the team dying, keep Mr. Pops alive, and figure out what the real story is. Manage any two and you are looking at two points of karma for every runner that survived, probably with another point or two depending on how things go and what the players do. Digging turns up that the Adept was a known Renraku deniable asset and that Mr. Pops stands to inherit a controlling interest in some corp Renraku wants if Pop's uncle kicks the bucket (and he is on his last legs receiving medical care) but (like his Uncle) he is unlikely to agree and if he is removed then the next individual in line to inherit does and she (a cousin) has strong Renraku connections.
Run #5: Figure out how to get Mr. Pops out from under Renraku's gun, preferably without Renraku getting the corp. The hacker and face get to work on the investigation end while the rest of the team works to keep Mr. Pops hidden and alive. The digging turns up that the cousin is actually pushing all of this and that it is not really Renraku as a whole that wants to acquire the corp but the piddling little subsidiary of a subsidiary of Renraku that is controlled by the cousins current boyfriend. And it seems that Mr. Boyfriend is being mighty free with Renraku deniable assets and has been materially misrepresenting the matter to the adept. If the players captured the adept or he got away then providing him the info will get him to drop the matter as he goes and acquaints Mr. Boyfriend and cousin with the fact that Renraku does not appreciate people using corporate assets for their own ends without authorization - indeed it has a fatal dislike for the practice. If the players managed to kill the adept but have any good Renraku connections then they can ensure that corporate learns what was going on and things get taken care of. In either case the run is over as is this story line and the players get another 4-6 karma. Dead adept and no Renraku connections means that the players need to find some way to remove the cousin and boyfriend from play while also getting the blame for the dead Renraku assets pushed off onto someone else, which means another run or two.
So there, a nice little nights worth of play. It had five separate runs in it that each should have generated karma, and assuming that the players resolved everything nicely then they should have cleared around 20 karma for the night.
---
And if you are trying to get to top tier power levels in anything like a short time scale (i.e. not decades or longer worth of game time) then you aren't worrying about gaining karma from runs or the GM's awards. You are doing things like ripping it out of the now cooling corpses of your enemies (or random passers by).
QUOTE (sk8bcn @ May 14 2018, 10:05 AM)
IMO, what has been written as cannon shouldn't be touched too much, even if it's stupid. An over 20 years old background is part of the charm of the game.
For exemple, Echo Mirage, NAN and his highly stupid demographical problem, or things like that need not to be retconned.
I also can live with unrealistic things about computer, if it doesn't hurt too much my suspension of disbelief (ex: abysmal Broadband requierements is ok, enforcing full Wireless technology is not ok).
However, I think that realism isn't as requiered as people seem to think here. It's been over 20 years that my characters can soak incredible damages and heal at impossible rates and we all know that it's not possible.
IMO, most people want something between realism and gamefun.
For exemple, Echo Mirage, NAN and his highly stupid demographical problem, or things like that need not to be retconned.
I also can live with unrealistic things about computer, if it doesn't hurt too much my suspension of disbelief (ex: abysmal Broadband requierements is ok, enforcing full Wireless technology is not ok).
However, I think that realism isn't as requiered as people seem to think here. It's been over 20 years that my characters can soak incredible damages and heal at impossible rates and we all know that it's not possible.
IMO, most people want something between realism and gamefun.
IMHO SR needs an reboot.
Take Cyber-, Bioware and Magic. Mix it, make an new timeline 50 years in the future.
If they really think they can get an functioning Matrix try again. If not then the internet died with the return of magic.
But first hire an competent editor. One that is willing to work for his money.
QUOTE (DeathStrobe @ Jun 10 2018, 07:27 PM)
A reboot is basically a terrible idea. What ever happened to Frank Trollman's Cyberpunk Fantasy Heartbreaker? Wasn't that suppose to be the reboot the kills Shadowrun, and that was 7 years ago.
Even things that are Shadowrun-like, like Eclipse Phase are still no where near as popular as SR is.
All the insane SR lore is what really makes SR for me, on top of the rule of cool where you can have motorcycle jousting rock vampire elves fighting cybernetic troll abominations. Everything about SR really is all about the rule of cool. Which is why we get VR Matrix, dragon CEOs, and literal cultural tribalism and figurative with the return of the NANs. Without this stuff, it is not Shadowrun. I never understood why anyone would want SR to not be cool and instead be just another cyberpunk game, but maybe with elves or something.
He did'nt finish it? (Apparently being a doctor is time consuming.) Still, it would be nice, if he ever gets around to finishing it...Even things that are Shadowrun-like, like Eclipse Phase are still no where near as popular as SR is.
All the insane SR lore is what really makes SR for me, on top of the rule of cool where you can have motorcycle jousting rock vampire elves fighting cybernetic troll abominations. Everything about SR really is all about the rule of cool. Which is why we get VR Matrix, dragon CEOs, and literal cultural tribalism and figurative with the return of the NANs. Without this stuff, it is not Shadowrun. I never understood why anyone would want SR to not be cool and instead be just another cyberpunk game, but maybe with elves or something.
QUOTE (Korwin @ Jul 17 2018, 10:21 AM)
My biggest beef with SR any edition, is lack of advancement...
What lack of advancement?
Not sure I am following you here...
I see nothing BUT advancement in actual play.
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 17 2018, 05:27 PM)
What lack of advancement?
Not sure I am following you here...
I see nothing BUT advancement in actual play.
Not sure I am following you here...
I see nothing BUT advancement in actual play.
I think I got to one initiation (that was I think under 3rd edition) with one of my Chars.
That was ~3 Karma per 3 Sessions or something...
The Karma Guidelines need an extra Paragraph about Real-Time Invested into the game.
QUOTE (Korwin @ Jul 17 2018, 10:48 AM)
I think I got to one initiation (that was I think under 3rd edition) with one of my Chars.
That was ~3 Karma per 3 Sessions or something...
The Karma Guidelines need an extra Paragraph about Real-Time Invested into the game.
That was ~3 Karma per 3 Sessions or something...
The Karma Guidelines need an extra Paragraph about Real-Time Invested into the game.
Wow, that is kind of slow... 1 Karma/Session is indeed very minimal advancement.
I always thought we were minimal Karma, with an average of about 3.5 Karma/Session (~150-180 ~ish Karma/Year). Guess I was wrong
QUOTE (Korwin @ Jul 17 2018, 11:48 AM)
I think I got to one initiation (that was I think under 3rd edition) with one of my Chars.
That was ~3 Karma per 3 Sessions or something...
The Karma Guidelines need an extra Paragraph about Real-Time Invested into the game.
SR4a had a few extras that could be awarded on a per session basis:That was ~3 Karma per 3 Sessions or something...
The Karma Guidelines need an extra Paragraph about Real-Time Invested into the game.
Good Roleplaying: 1 or 2 for players not breaking character
Guts: 1 for risking life & limb when there's no other option (except maybe surrender), maybe 2 if they're particularly heroic
Smarts: 1 for coming up with a particularly clever strategy, or knowing when to surrender, maybe 2 for something exceptionally complicated and/or dastardly
Motivation: 1 or 2 for players that help drive the story along, rather than letting the GM handle it all
Right Place & Time: 1 for happening to have the right skill at a critical moment (example given is not buying an autosoft because you know you'll need lockpicking, but actually spotting a locked door and picking the lock so the party can escape).
Humor & [melo]Drama: 1 for being able to still stay in character but still being able to impress the group with acting or comedy
These are all subjective to the GM, of course. It was also suggested in that section (page 269 of SR4a, for those interested) that an average of 4 or 5 karma per adventure should be about average, and never more than 10 karma. Clearly if rewards are too small players will get frustrated, but not too obvious at times is if the rewards are too high players can become bored as things get too easy too quickly. And mentioned more than one time was the point of having fun.
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