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Ken Takai
Is possible to use ultrasound vision with the Improved sense adept power?
Phaeton
Take whatever I say as being potentially naive and misinformed, but I'd rule yes. I might even rule that the cost is lowered if you snag the High Frequency Hearing adept power along with it, much like the essence cost of ultrasound vision cyberware is lowered when you get high-freq hearing installed.
JaronK
I'd allow it. You can get any sense that's not completely technological... since bats and dolphins have ultrasound, it seems quite reasonable.

Basically, I'd say you can have any sense with Improved Sense that a critter could reasonably have (so no radio sense or commlink sense).

JaronK
Ken Takai
QUOTE (JaronK)
I'd allow it. You can get any sense that's not completely technological... since bats and dolphins have ultrasound, it seems quite reasonable.

Basically, I'd say you can have any sense with Improved Sense that a critter could reasonably have (so no radio sense or commlink sense).

JaronK

In this case Tremor sense is possible, wow...

I want it...
Eyeless Blond
Actually, this has been discussed in here before, and from what I remember the consensus was no. The important concept here is that ultrasound *hearing* is fine, because it's actually a sense, and is in fact no different than high-frequency hearing. Ultrasound *vision* however is something else, something more than high-frequency hearing. Ultrasound vision is high-frequency hearing, combined with an emitter and a spacial processor, so no, they're not the same.
nezumi
I'd agree with eyeless blond. Technically, you have ultrasound vision when you get high frequency hearing. The problem isn't that you don't have the senses to get the information, your brain is not set up to process the information your ears receive.

If you did have an ultrasound emittor and it was directional, you could probably still get some useful information by listening to the echos, but it wouldn't be as complete as ultrasound vision.
Ken Takai
I think that an important factor is miss, a factor that make ultrasound vision possible.
And this important factor is called Magic. Is a magical power, not an pure body sense.
JaronK
Well, I'd agree it wouldn't be vision, it would be hearing... but it would have the same game effects as vision. Perhaps using his mouth as the emitter? Still, I think I have to agree with Ken... it's a magical sense, so it works.

JaronK
Zazen
QUOTE (Eyeless Blond)
Actually, this has been discussed in here before, and from what I remember the consensus was no.

No way has there ever been a consensus on this nyahnyah.gif

There's no official rule, Ken. Some people say no, some people say yes. I say it costs double. We're all correct. smile.gif
JaronK
QUOTE (Zazen)
There's no official rule, Ken. Some people say no, some people say yes. I say it costs double. We're all correct. smile.gif

However, it's worth noting that I'm righter than everyone else smile.gif

JaronK
Cray74
QUOTE (Ken Takai)
Is possible to use ultrasound vision with the Improved sense adept power?

The whole notion of PhysAds using ultrasound as an "improved sense" is reawakening memories of a drugged nun attempting to "speak with the dolphins" in "Hudson Hawk."
Kagetenshi
I personally would definitely allow someone to take Ultrasound Receiver as an Adept power, and it'd do all the things ultrasound vision normally would. I would, however, require a technological emitter.

~J
Da9iel
No technological emitter required; wear a bat. biggrin.gif

[EDIT] The mammal, not the big stick. [/EDIT]
Kagetenshi
Wear a bat on a bat!

~J
mfb
i personally don't see ultrasonic emission as much more difficult a feat to accomplish than is the ability to see into the infrared part of the spectrum.
Cain
Call it "echolocation" and you're good to go.
Crusher Bob
The 'extra sense' involved would require three things:

The ability to emit ultra sounds, the ability to hear ultrasounds, and the ability to then turn what you hear into a 'picuture'. I'd say that the adept would have to pay for highfrequency hearing hearing, and pay again for the ability to emit and process the reflected sounds. This makes it cost .5 magic for the total package. Since having ultrasound 'vision' would require high frequency hearing to function at all and we don't want to give the adept this for free, we just make them pay 'twice'.
toturi
QUOTE (JaronK)
QUOTE (Zazen @ Jul 13 2004, 05:57 PM)
There's no official rule, Ken. Some people say no, some people say yes. I say it costs double. We're all correct. smile.gif

However, it's worth noting that I'm righter than everyone else smile.gif

JaronK

Except me. cool.gif

Honestly, there hasn't been a consensus on this topic. Maybe this time...
Moon-Hawk
In my game, I allow ultrasound vision as an improved sense adept power, but high-frequency hearing improved sense adept power is a prerequisite.
The cost stays the same, they just have to pick up another sense that they might not've wanted as much. This way they can't use their "ultrasound vision" to "see" high frequency sound and detect it without paying for the high-frequency power, or any other such cheese.
I know there's not much or a precident for that sort of thing in SR, but it seems to work well.

The short answer: I agree completely with Crusher Bob.
Ken Takai
QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)
In my game, I allow ultrasound vision as an improved sense adept power, but high-frequency hearing improved sense adept power is a prerequisite.
The cost stays the same, they just have to pick up another sense that they might not've wanted as much. This way they can't use their "ultrasound vision" to "see" high frequency sound and detect it without paying for the high-frequency power, or any other such cheese.
I know there's not much or a precident for that sort of thing in SR, but it seems to work well.

The short answer: I agree completely with Crusher Bob.

I'm not sure about that cause i don't have the Man and machine at hand, but if the Ultrasound hearing cyberware y not required for the cyberware Ultrasound vision. Then US hearing must not be required to US vision.
Moon-Hawk
I think it's a difference of how the hardware is wired.
Say you have a device that detects high frequency sound. You can wire that device to the eye (along with some other stuff) and get ultrasound vision, or you could wire it to the ear and get high frequency hearing. If you do both, you pay essence twice because it's impacting your brain twice, both in the visual and auditory centers. Remember, essence loss isn't supposed to be about grams of metal and silicon, it's supposed to be about the things impact on you; the reason pacemakers don't cost essence.
I could definitely see a slight Nuyen discount for both devices, but not much.
Of course, someone could bring up the argument that high-frequency hearing and ultrasound might not be talking about the exact same band of sound. High-frequency hearing doesn't specify how high it goes, and ultrasound can operate at many frequencies, different ones being better than others depending on what you're trying to do with it.
Lantzer
I'm comfortable with the notion that there are things that Adepts can't do, the same as there are things that a Sammie can't do.

Give the Mundane's their moment in the sun - We get no shortage of folks wanting to play Adepts. Besides - An adept's other vision mods are already better than a Sam's, because they count as 'natural'.

You can't have everything. (But I want it! Waah!)

It's like the folks who want Adept versions of: Smartlinks, balance augmenters, Hydraulic jacks, chemical analyzers, Magnetic limb systems, and BattleTac. Ok, maybe not the last two. But I've heard folks arguing for the others. To be honest, I'm surprised I haven't heard anybody whining for magical bonelacing.
shadd4d
Look at it the other way around. Bone Lacing cyberware roughly = Enhanced physical attribute, Mystic Armor, and Killing Hands. Quite a few adept powers can be broken down into cyberware equivalents. Maybe it's in the fiction in the 2nd ed Basic Book, but I think I remember seeing something like "She had magic which the rest of us needed cyberware to match".

Don
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (mfb)
i personally don't see ultrasonic emission as much more difficult a feat to accomplish than is the ability to see into the infrared part of the spectrum.

No, but it's different philosophically. It's like letting an improved sense mimic a desklamp.

~J
JaronK
Well, to have thermo vision you need the ability to see infrared and then turn that into a picture... to have direction sense you need some sort of ability to detect your position on earth... to have flare compensation, well, that's even weirder.

JaronK
Kagetenshi
Yes, but none of them require you to emit anything.

For flare comp, all you really need are really fast-responding pupils.

~J
JaronK
If bats do it, I don't see why Adepts can't. Think of it like daredevil.

JaronK
Kagetenshi
And if luminous fish can do it, why can't adepts produce light?

Regardless of whether or not it's reasonable for them to be able to do this, it's ridiculous to call it a sense.

~J
Zazen
Sound dampening certainly isn't a "sense" either nyahnyah.gif
mfb
actually, i allow adepts to buy eyelights, since they're listed as a sensory modification.

the idea that adept powers have to be biologically-based is false. adept powers are not necessarily based on physiological changes in the adept's body. this is provable by the fact that adept powers fade when the adept is in a mana warp--if they were physiological changes, that wouldn't happen. there is no canon definition for where adept powers 'come from', and it's an ill-conceived idea to disallow certain sensory powers simply because they don't fit a certain philosophy about how adept powers work.
JaronK
Well, I'd say biological senses are as opposed to technological. But I'd even buy that they can have eyelight equivilents... luminescent eyes. It's not that they have the biological parts, but rather that if some biological thing can have it, they can.

JaronK
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Zazen)
Sound dampening certainly isn't a "sense" either nyahnyah.gif

But it's the enhancement of a sense. Emitting sound isn't a sense.

~J
JaronK
You're right. It's more of an... I don't know... enhancement of a sense?

JaronK
Cain
Just think of it as echolocation. As long as they have a sound source from a fixed point, they can determine relative distances to objects based on the echo return. Precicely *what* they're using to create the echo is irrelevant.
Kagetenshi
Exactly. An emitter is as much an augmentation of ultrasound receiving as a desk lamp is of vision or a rose is of smell.

~J
Eyeless Blond
QUOTE (Zazen)
Sound dampening certainly isn't a "sense" either nyahnyah.gif

Hm? How does that logic work?

There is another reason so many people object to ultrasound vision as an Improved Sense, besides the in-game logic of a *sense* being incapable of generating ultrasonic sound. That being game balance. See, ultrasound vision is a mod that in cyberware form costs .5 Essence, the same as a Smartlink, so its game effect is extremely powerful. Allowing an adept to purchase this same power for a measly .25 Power Points is somewhat on par with giving them a Smartlink mod as an "Improved Sense" for .25 Power Points; it's far too good. Most legal Improved Senses are worth between .1 and .25 Essence as cyberware, presumably for balance reasons. Allowing adepts to cherry-pick better and better abilities off of the cyberware list make sammies even worse off than they already are by comparison.

Btw, this has indeed been discussed before, in my old Munch-fu thread.
hyzmarca
How about this, adepts with ultrasound vision automaticly incur the Blind flaw because their the parts of their brain dedicated to processing vision insted process sound. This would allow Daredevil type characters, as well as blind swordsmen, blind archers, bind snipers, and ect.

Alternate, require adepts with ultrasound vision to take ultrasound generation, a power that allows their vocal cords to generate ultrasonic noise. The entire package can cost .5 power points, making it about equal to the Cyberware.
mfb
well, heck, if we're going to raise the price on ultrasound because it's more expensive, essence-wise, i'm going to demand rebates on all my sensory powers that cost less than .25 essence for the cyber version. this isn't "cherry-picking", it's "using the rules as-written". high-pitched noise isn't a technological phenomenon, ergo ultrasound sight--"echolocation" if it makes it easier--is a viable adept power.
Kagetenshi
A pity, then, that physad powers only come in increments of .25 PP.

~J
nezumi
QUOTE (JaronK)
Well, to have thermo vision you need the ability to see infrared and then turn that into a picture... to have direction sense you need some sort of ability to detect your position on earth... to have flare compensation, well, that's even weirder.

JaronK

Thermo - You only need your eye to be able to receive light lower on the spectrum. Your brain really doesn't need any real changes to be able to see it, from what I understand, unless you're developing heat pits.

Direction sense - you only need to be sensitive to magnetic fields. This is a common phenomena in humans already, the theory being some people have more iron in their nose. You don't need to know where on the earth you are.

Both are perfectly fine senses.

Sound dampening would be the reduction of a sense. I would see a physiological version as requiring doing something weird with your brain so you can consciously separate one set of noise from another, but it isn't that tough. We do it already (you know that background noise you tune out all the time? Just do that on a higher level).

I wouldn't even argue with being able to use ultrasound vision/echolocation as a sense power if you have an outside source of noise. It's just the ability to listen to the difference in echoes. I don't know that the bonuses would be the same, however, since you don't have anything to map out an overlay, it would work more like an open air tremorsense than a vision mod. You know something is in that direction, of that density and moving at that speed, but you can't 'see' it, you just know its there like if you heard a car driving by behind you. The ability to make a high pitched noise is still not a sense, though.
Da9iel
Alright, one of the things I'm seeing here is that most folks would want to charge .5 power points for it (.25 for the sense, .25 for the ...uh ...call [emitter]). I also see that most folks are sick and tired of adepts having everything sams do and better, so they don't want it or want it worse. Works for me. The brain shouldn't have the power to process a sense so alien. How about we give it a +4 in total darkness. Hmmm, is it just me, or does this look a lot like blindfighting?
JaronK
Why is ultrasound so alien? Blind people already use their visual cortexes for sound processing, and dolphins of course are capable of processing such information... so why not an adept?

JaronK
Da9iel
Maybe because they are already using it for visual cues? I'm just trying to say that I believe a computer could more thoroughly process echos into a 3D map (or perhaps a 2D map with depth cues) than a brain. *cough* gamebalance *cough*
JaronK
Perhaps I'd buy game balance... I dunno though. I like it for making blind swordsmen characters. Blind Fighting + Echolocation + Aptitude: Edged Weapons makes them impressive in combat, especially if they wear flash packs to screw up everyone else's vision. Add in a new martial art: Kendo, that acts like a martial art for edged weapons and take blind fighting, and wheee!

JaronK
Da9iel
Oh, come on! Does everyone have to be a mun[DATAFEED INTERRUPT ERROR--07-16-04 13:27:58] wink.gif
Cain
Um, guys? Submarine sonar operators create 3D maps all the time, based solely on ambient noise. Whales seem to manage the trick as well. You don't need to be emitting anything to use sonar as a sense, you know.
Da9iel
First, humans are not whales. Second, some questions about the sonar operators.

1) Do they make the maps update in real time such that a person could walk around and respond to a changing environment?

2) Is it fair to compare underwater sonar with air sonar?

3) Are the maps of sufficient quality that they equate to vision with dim lighting?

If yes to all three questions, then I am wrong. Please mentally retract my statements. If no to any, then I think I'll stand by my +4 modifier and .5 power points.

[EDIT]Active sonar is much, much more accurate, isn't it? And whales do make calls while echo locating, don't they?[/EDIT]
JaronK
It's not being a munchkin, it's playing an archtype... a blind swordsman. They're blind, yet able to detect anything by sound, smell, whatever, and always great masters of their art.

JaronK
Da9iel
Sorry JaronK. Please don't be offended. I was kidding (as you could perhaps tell).
JaronK
Harumph! Of course I knew that! I know everything! Rawr!

JaronK
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