The emitter can be a magically enhanced vocal chord.

The human brain can act as the processor.

Yes, but it is not vision, nor should it gain the mechanical benefits of vision. What you are describing with your talk of passive sonar is exactly what the Spacial Recognizer is and how it works. This thread is not debating whether the Spacial Recognizer is or is not a valid adept Improved Sense; we already know it is. This thread is debating whether Ultrasound Vision, as described in M&M p. 18, is a valid Improved Sense, purchasable for .25 PPts. I'd like to think it has been proven that allowing such a power is both incorrect thematically and unbalanced mechanically, but not everyone seems to agree. So what are the counterarguments?

1. There's presedence for it in both nature (bats, whales, dolphins, etc.) and magic (the Enhanced Sense critter power). The Discovery Channel and other places have even talked about a small group of blind people who were practicing something similar and were becoming quite good at it. And they're not even adepts.

2. It's thematically within an adept's domain. Superhuman senses are a staple for adept's and they are one of their strongest points. They are already capable of using senses above and beyond what even cyberware can provide (such as Direction Sense and Improved Scent).

3. See #1.

4. It's hardly game breaking; it's only better than other visual-enhancements against things like Glare, Mist, and Thermal Smoke. Against darkness and other penalties, there are better options available.

5. See #1.

1. What exactly are the mechanical benefits of vision? Beyond simple directional abilities, it also gives one the ability to distinguish size, distance, shape, and texture. Since echolocation can do all of those things, it can and should function exactly like vision.

2. No, I'm afraid not. The spatial recognizer only allows you to determine which direction a sound is coming from. Echolocation, as mentioned above, also allows distances, shapes, and textures to be "seen". You cannot navigate a maze solely using a spatial recognizer, but you could with echolocation. (Spatial recognition abilities are still useful, since even with echolocation, you may not be able to distinguish the direction of sounds at differing frequencies than what you use for "sonar".)

3. As far as I can tell, while "ultrasound" itself may not be valid, echolocation certainly is. Echolocation is a different sense than high-frequency hearing or spatial recognition.

4. Echolocation, being a fairly common sensory ability among many different species, is certainly correct thematically for an adept of an animal totem, and even some that are not. Mechanically, I can't see how it'd be any more unbalanced than ultrasound vision itself is-- certainly, we should be applying penalties for Silence spells and white noise generators!

Okay im just curious, you keep bringing that up, but where did you get this logic from? do you think that all critter powers and/or all senses that are from any living thing should be available to adepts?

But that's *not* what the description of what the power says.

This never says that you can posess any natural sense, only any sense that is available through cyberware yet doesn't involve technology specific implementations.

I think that anything a mundane human can achieve in 2004 is certainly valid for a magical power in 2064. Especially if they can tell, just by wondering about it, how far underground they are, identify people with utmost certainly by a simple whiff, or chemically analyze the composition of food and beverages just by tasting them.

But yes, I do also think that most any sense you can find in nature is equally valid for a supernatural power.

I've also listed examples earlier in the thread for cybernetic "senses" that wouldn't qualify for the power. Recorders, Cameras, Opti-Cams, Eye Guns, and Eye Lasers are all examples of cybernetic "senses" that truly are technology-based. You won't find them in nature, either. Well, unless you can point to an animal that can download a 100% accurate photo-realistic image into a computer. Or shoot bullets out of their eyes. Or burn through doors just by staring at them. etc.

Right?

Well, or a poorly-named cybernetic advancement that combines a new sense with an ultrasonic emitter.

Edit: Kind of like getting thermo vision as an upgrade along with IR eyelights.

Let's seperate this into two parts. A: "any sense provided by cyberware can also be provided by this power" and B: "Unless an improvement involves radio or similar technological phenomena." Okay, so any power is legit as long as it is within the scope of A, and not a member of B, right?

Well, first off, is ultrasound (or it's equivelents) within the scope of A? Yes, ultrasound vision can be provided by cyberware. Now, is it within the restriction of B, namely being a technological phenomena such as radio? No, because non-technological beings can have this power (meta critters, whales, bats, etc).

Thus, ultrasound vision fits within that scentance.

JaronK

Can you provide a page reference for that? That any creature possesses Ultrasound Vision? I'll answer that for you. There aren't any.

Echolocation and Sonar (SOund NAvagation Ranging) do not have any visual output without technological assistance.

Then again there's the whole balance issue of allowing anything "found in nature" to be a guide for Adepts.

I want quills on my Adept!
I want gills!
I want a gland I can spray at people with!
I want fangs and neurotoxin!
I want adaptive camouflage!

Pretty soon we have Animal Boy, who's on run from tabloids everywhere. Not an Adept, who's theme is improvement of their metahuman body and mind expressed internally via magic.

And if one wants to start allowing Paranormal Animals for Improved Senses...

Auras! I want my Adept to be covered in flames! It's found in nature!
Fading! I'll make the ultimate Stealth Adept! It's found in nature!
Every Adept needs Hardened Armor! It's found in nature!
Regeneration's good.... It's found in nature!

Essence Drain! To finally completely screw over Sammies after taking everything that was unique to them! It's found in nature!

Why only take the Sammie's toys, let's take the Full Magician's toys too with Magical Skills as an Adept power! It's found in nature!

SURGE?

As SURGE? That's half the point to become the Amazing Freak Boy, ostracized by a xenophobic society and then either left to the dregs of society or pointed at as a side show attraction.

That's not in the Adept's providence though.

Except for the part where it's not a *sense*. Saying that M&M's Ultrasound vision is a sense because it involves hearing sound reflected from the target is akin to saying that a thrown punch is a sense because it involves touching the target. Sure, part of it is a sense, but there's a whole lot--probably the most important parts--that aren't a sense.

(Edit): By the way, this is not to say that Ultrasound Vision cannot be an adept power; in fact, it probably should be, for many of the reasons Necromatic Misfit Lime and Cain mentioned. But it doesn't go under the catchall category of an Improved Sense, and there's no way that power should cost only .25PP (I'd say .5 at *least*, maybe even .75).

He's saying that if it's found in nature, it's not allowable in his games because that'll create "freaky animal boys." He's saying that if it duplicates a cybernetic implant, it's clearly out of bounds for an adept. He's saying that if its purely magical, it's out of their domain because that belongs to magicians (even though his last point is an adept power). etc.

Better remove Improved Taste from their list, then, too. Since it duplicates the effects of a Chemical Analyzer, which isn't a sense but a computer processor with sophisticated software. Same goes for Direction Sense since it's duplicating a Nav-Dat GPS system which is just a computer that gets data from a satellite network and processes it into legible data. Same goes for {insert any other power here} since its {insert any other technological equivalent here}.

I'm not objecting over the technological aspect, although that is certainly another point of debate. I'm objecting because the ultrasound emitter in Ultrasound Vision is no more a sense than someone's vocal cords or a set of headphones is a sense.

Maybe I'm missing something, but he didn't seem to be saying that; just that "it's found in nature" does not make it a viable adept power. I'm going to have to go with the school that would allow this as an adept power, but not an improved sense, from what I've seen.

No Doc, you're completely missing the point. Please do not try and talk as if you were me. Last time I checked, you weren't.

I'm saying that "found in nature" is not a valid reasoning to be allowed as an Adept power. There is nothing in the rules, nor in the themes of Adepts to ever suggest such a mockery.

Primarily because that has jack to do with Adepts. Adepts are loosely based upon the mythical martial art masters who were capable of extrodinary bodily control and focus. Not Bat Boy.

And I'm not saying that at all either Doc, specifically because it's spelled out otherwise (with the exception of purely technological requirements, such as an emitter and the processor required to visualize sound) in the book. Either learn some reading comprehension skills, or stop trying to intentionally misinterpret what I'm saying.

I was about to argue against this due to your combattive nature... but it's completely true.

Adepts blend magic with the advancement of their mind and body internally. Anyways, there's already a way to blend the two styles, but as a "magician adept" with rating A magic and not as a normal adept.

And I was turning that argument around and trying to show you how stupid it sounded to me. Complaining that it's not a valid argument, while simultaneously clutching to the idea that they can give themselves other abilities found in nature because it's holistic and natural, while simultnaeously dismissing an equally natural and holistic ability (that normal, mundane humans have the ability to develop) is the very definition of absurd as far as I'm concerned.

What you can't seem to comprehend is that that's the explanation for the technological version of the sense. As has been pointed out, Direction Sense is an Internal GPS system, even though an Internal GPS system is just a "processor" that reads satellite data. Clearly that's beyond an adept's ability according to you. Same goes for Improved Taste and a Chemical Analyzer. Improved Reflexes does the same thing as Wired Reflexes, so obviously the power must work the same way as the implant, huh? Nope -- they just have the same end effect. The process they use to get there is completely different. Ultrasound Vision is on the exact same field.

Then explain Astral Perception, Magic Sense, Magic Resistance, Distance Strike, Delay Damage, Killing Hands, Rooting, Divination, Psychometry, Masking, Enchanting, and the countless other purely magical Adept Powers and abilities at their disposal.

By intentionally misinterpreting my words? It only shows how you interpret what I say. Which I have to say is far away from reality.

Show me any place where I advocated "natural and holistic" as a valid guideline for adept powers. Clue: I have never done so. Claiming I do is the absurdity.

Which part? The fact that it requires an emitter, or the fact it requires a processor to turn it into a visual input?

Dear lord it's not. Spatial awareness is NOT the same as reading three signals from space to triangulate your position upon a global sphere. GPS signals don't tell you where you're facing and Direction Sense doesn't give you latitude and longitude.

Knowing which way the Adept's facing? Or recieving three signals to triangulate one's position on a sphere? Facing? Yes. Signals? No.

No again. They are not the same, despite both needing the Chemistry skill for full application. One gives you the information you're drinking a spicy flavored beer with a mickey slipped in it. The other breaks it down and can tell you what exact percentage is alcohol, how much water is in the drink, and what exact spices were used to create that flavoring. Oh yeah there's an anomalous reading of substance (gives Chemical breakdown of said mickey).

A matter of detail and interpretation. They are not the same thing.

Show me the adept that reacted too fast and blew off the kid's face for asking for some ice cream. Wait, that's an effect of cyber that does not transfer between the two. So while there are simularities, they are not the same.

If by that, you mean there should be a power that halves visability modifiers... you know, I think you should take a look at Blind Fighting. But if you mean translating sound into a visuals without synesthesia, I'm going to have to disagree. Vehemently.

You don't pay much attention to the mythical martial art masters do you?

Each of those have been claimed by one master or another in some period of time.

Some are more mythical then others, but I have seen videos of said masters snuffing out candles 20 feet away. And thus fit within the perview of Adepts.

Off to a great start in this post!

Right, it tells people their global coordinates, latitude and longitude, not facing.

So it tells you your dacing and altitude but not your facing. If you consider two things that are different the same thing, then yeah that makes sense. The only overlap there is altitude. That's it. GPS doesnt do facing and direction sense doesnt do location.

Reference please? and normal is a misnomer here becuase if they're normal they sure as hell cant perform echolocation, that by definition would make them abnormal. Links? Lab studies please?

You may also want to work at arguing points that people actually said instead of falslely acusing them of saying something then using that as the basis of an argument. Try having a conversation without ever expanding the scope of what somoeine is arguing in order to more easily attack it. I don't think it's possible for you to meed someone's argument head on. You never make a common habit of not arguing the point but instead exaggerating their point then arguing the exaggeration. Try arguing their actual points instead.

Er, I didnt edit anything out, it doesnt maintain links when you copy and paste.

I didn't demand anything, I asked for it, and I even said please. Twice. and yes, I missed that link.

Again, you address nothing about the argument whatsoever except to point out a mistake on my part. If you're going to drop a thread by posting nothing new or worthwhile, why do it by firing parting shots at people?

Bitbasher struck true, but I'm going to try and pound it home here.

By not "bothering to quote endlessly" you are generalizing and obfuscating in an attempt to ignore any point that you can not address. If you refuse to address my own points, under what right do you claim any credence to your own?

You deserve no respect of your own point if you insist on not respecting the point of those you debate with.

You just skipped my point. Again. Did you even read what I wrote or are you spouting off randomly now?

A matter of detail and interpretation. They are not the same thing. Without the built-in program a Chemical Analyizer is worthless. Without Chemistry, Improved Taste is still useful. With a built-in program, a Chemical Analyizer will still be able to give the chemical composition of the ingrediant, an Adept with Improved Taste that doesn't recognize the taste will have no clue what he just ate.

Do you have any clue how a GPS works? All GPS does is give you three numbers. That's it. Where you are on a globe and how far are you up or down relative to sea level. It does not give any information about the area around the individual.

Direction Sense is more like a compass with the added ability to know how high or low you are relative to the local area.

Two people, one in quadrant g7 and the other in f8are moving NW at ground level.

The Direction Sense is going to give them the exact same answer, while the GPS will give two very distinctly different ones.

This is correct. Magical aspects of internal control and focus are the very heart of an Adept.

Yet Doc, these are not purely external powers. They are an external MANIFESTATION of that internal power.

There you go with that natural bullshit again. I don't care if it's "natural" or not. That's your criteria. One that's not show as a guideline in any shape or form at all in the BBB or MitS.

yourself Doc. You are insisting on arguing that I defined Adepts within your view. Which I don't and have never done so. I catagorically reject the idea that "nature" as a guideline for what is or is not proper for Adepts.

I have every problem with an Adept "seeing" sound without some form of technological assistance.

No, it's not the same, but they do share simular effects (and thus mechanics), but they go about it differently. Differently such that the level of detail, and the interpretation differ. Sound familuar?

Not only is it silly, but it begins to let in game balance concerns.

Others addressed it, and rather then seeming to pile on, I left it to address other posts, this being the first one you brought it up into which I responded to.

You see I quote the entire post that I respond to, to make it obvious to everyone that I respect the point enough to either agree with, or counter.

I've seen this. They even are good enough to ride bikes by it. They also have crap for detail. They can tell if a car's in their way no problem. Asking them to make a three dimensional visual representation (such as the sense that Ultrasound Vison generates) is another thing entirely.

Plus their perception is entirely related to themselves as the reference point.

Again. You're the one that cares about natural. I couldn't find a rat's ass in which to give you.

Reading other people's aura's and the emotional charge of the area around the perciever is not as "purely magical" as you try to make it out as. It's called empathy, and it's a skill that a lot of people have. Astral perception is an outgrowth of this and is in no way "100% purely magical."

Which includes not responding to our points then? Do you just not see them? or does your willful ignorance expand to this as well?

Oh horse hockey. You refuse to address our points in any shape or fashion. All that we have left is to blast your ill-concived notions out of the water.

Our solid leg is there. Our points are there. Yet you refuse to address them. Do not claim that they don't exist because you refuse to see them.

Do you simply assume that everyone that doesn't agree with you is just whining and bitching? Or are you now using the link in Bitbasher's sig as a checklist?

Consider it adressed. Echolocation is not the equivlent of a fully detailed real time visual representation.

Quit stating your opinion as fact. The only evidence to believe Bit might have been as you state was his reaction to your combative nature. He stated it wasn't intended as your percieved it. As no one can read his mind and tell if he was lying or not, accept it and move on.

Why would he respond to his own post? Clarification needed.

And in almost the same breath...

FASCINATING!

So you're now arguing that it's okay to have a magical power that magnifies a person's questionable ability to kinda-sorta get an idea for how someone else is feeling sometimes to the point where they can tell exactly what toxins they have in their system, the exact disease(s) they're suffering from, their exact emotional state, the reason for that exact emotion they're currently feeling (riots, murder, etc.), their exact game mechanic stats, and other similar information. And with Psychometry and Sensing, those powers are magnified several-fold more.

But at the same time you're arguing that a relatively mild magical augmentation (considering it only halves visual penalties as opposed to completely eliminating them) of an ability most humans possess (though few have had the need or desire to hone) to use echolocation is totally, wholly, and inconceiveably inappropriate as an adept power.

And you're still wondering why I'm not bothering very much with your posts? You can't even keep your own arguments consistant in the same one.

Why don't you go on a rant about how Improved Sense: Optical Magnification is wholly inappropriate, too, because it turns adepts into "freaky animal boys" by giving them eagle eyes that zoom in and out as they focus. Or how Improved Sense: Improved Scent turns adepts into "freaky animal boys" by causing their noses to grow and elongate into the shape of a bloodhound's. Or how Improved Sense: Thermographic Sense causes adepts to turn into "freaky [troll] boys" by making their eyes grow to the size of a troll's since they're now mimicking a natural troll ability? etc. Afterall, you're claiming that Improved Sense: Ultrasound Vision turns them into "freaky animal boys" by making them squeal like a dolphin. Might as well apply your logic across the board instead of only hiding behind it when it suits your point.

And you're going to continue to see me beat you over the head with it. If you can't deal with the debate without selective exaggeration and trying to reinterpret my words out of context, just drop out now. You're beat, you realize it (if only subconciously), and are trying to distract your way out of the debate by turning it away from the fact that no one can interpret sound visually without the help of technology or a mental condition.

One, again stop trying to force words in my mouth.

Secondly, where is the word exact in the following sentences that was pulled from page 171, under the description of Assensing, the act in which you are refering to.

"By assensing something's aura, you can gain information. The auras of living being show their general health, emotions, and magical nature (if any)."

Hey Blue, how about a Clue? It isn't there. The adept will never know the exact toxins, diseases, emotions, reasons for that emotion, stats, or other information without the background skills to back it up. The player will recieve this information, but like a GM telling telling a player they have a +8 to their TN due to the darkness, the adept will only know it's dreking dark, not they have a +8 modifier to all their shots.

"It looked like HHMHV, no I don't know what strain, do I look like a parazoologist?"
"It looked like VITAS, no I don't know which one, do I look like a doctor?"
"Drek man... that room was filled with some nasty emotion, I think maybea rape or murder must have taken place in there."
"Frag it man, that guy has a drekload of mana in him... he aint no Dunkelzhan, but I'm still not messing with that chummer."

With time, effort, and the proper Knowledge skills, a character will be able to interpret what they see into the exact results you describe.

"It was just a ghoul man, least is wasn't a bandersnatch."
"It looked to be an offshoot of the first VITAS, I thought they wiped it out a decade ago?"
"I've seen a lot of crime scenes... this one stunk of murder."
"Psh, he's only an Initiate of the Third Circle. I have students further along then he is.

I have my misgivings about echolocation (The adventures of Bat Boy has no place in my version of Shadowrun), but then again... maybe to put it in bold so you can catch it: echolocation is not Ultrasound Vision.

After I realized the only point of view you are capable of seeing is your own, and therefore are trying to force every other view through your own view point... it's kind of lessened. Now it's devolved into a sort of sick "Whack-a-Mole" game in reference to your points since you're utterly incapable of viewing outside of your selective viewpoint.

Edited for clarity and formatting. See, it's easy to do Doc.

And that's your perogative.

Sounds like a wonderful story and a good show where everyone had fun.

Because it takes the themes of the two distinct styles out behind the shed to the weed whacker. And that does hurt the game in my opinion.

Personally I take the themes of magic meeting technology (and the resulting clashing or fusion) seriously. A Street Samurai is selling his soul, bit by bit to remain "on the razor's edge." By allowing any technological edge for a Street Samurai to be replicated by an Adept's power point, the theme of the Street Samurai is diminshed, as well as adding game balance issues.

If an Adept can have everything a Street Sam can have, plus the other bonuses unique to Adepts and without the penalties that come with 'ware, there would be no point to play a Street Sam from a game balance point of view.

If SR came out with a piece of cyber called "Advanced Neuromuscular Controllers" that for 0.1 Essence for a physical non-combat skill or 0.25 for a combat skill gave a +1 to the character's effective skill per rating, limited in rating to the skill rating itself, there would be a suitable case for disenfrancisement of the Adepts.

I am of the opinion that it does violate the main focus of Magic and Technology to treat it so cavalierly.

Nice attack. If you do not personally respect themes, styles and tones, more power to you. Those of us that do would kindly ask you to not assume we're all mentally ill. At least until you meet us in person.

Because munchkins usually have a theme with their characters, and that theme is usually fairly simple if blatantly absurd in the context of the game?

Maybe you should go back and read over your posts sometime, then. I do so love hypocrisy. I truly, truly do.

It's always fascinated me how someone sticking to their opinion and arguing it is considered "bad" when it's not you, but when it's you it's perfectly okay because you're so much smarter than everyone else. Afterall, you're "an lit major." You know what you're talking about.

I would like to draw your attention to page74 of Man & Machine... the bioware in question is called "Reflex Recorder" and of .25 essence you can indeed get a +1 to a combat skill (or any physical skill)... for specializations the cost drops to .1 essence. The only difference between what you just talked about with "Advanced Neuromuscular Controllers" and "Rexflex Recorders" is the limit of how many dice you can have.

Personally I see "ultrasound hearing" for an adept less like echolocation, and more like daredevils power. The characters field of vision simply drops from "straigh line where he is looking" to "3 meeters in all directions".

As for themes, I would have to respectfully disagree with how the themes for characters are setup. I do not see the rules as a way to enforce themes and world texture. I would like to use a made up example from movies.

Jet Li walks into a room, and someone throws a knife at him... quickly he leans back a quater of an inch with his extreme reflexes, the knife slams into the wall behind him, he grabs it and hurles it back at his assailant. All the while wooshing sounds are played over an empty music track... Jet Li's face remains calm and collected, the scene is done in one single shot.

Robocop walks into a room, and someone throws a knife at him... quickly he slams his palm into the knife, deflecing it into the wall behind him. He then pulls out his gun and shoots the assailant in the kneecap, so that he can be easily arrested. There is a techno track playing over the entire scene, the camera zooms in on the knife as it is flung through the air, and the assailant is seen cackling as he initially attacked robocop.


When you build themes in a movie or book, the actions the characters take are descibed differently, they are not given different actions. In Camu's "The Stranger" for example, the main character does not "shoot" the arab, instead "the trigger gives way, and the gun fires". This premotes the sense of detachment that the character feels (like a street samurai who has given up to much of his soul for cyber).

To retain the integrity of theme and texture of story components one does not alter the meta-canvas. To show the difference between Jet Li and Robocop you alter the shots used, the music and the special effects type, movie makers do not need to drastically alter how movies are percieved to accomplish this. Altering the perception of how movies are made is a tool to make someone appreciate the art form.

Themes are tools, and a product of the genre, not a goal in and of themselves. The theme of "Man's Inhumanity to Man" is a product of Vonegut's "Slaughterhouse 5", but that theme is a tool to ask questions about the nature of freedom, and our own will against that of the universe at large.

Every game is a different story, and thusly should have different themes. The game I am running now uses a strong "lost history" theme, that means I disuade players from taking ancient history skills at player creation, but reseach skills would be highly recommended.

Now time for the "attack" as one person called my flipant comment about delusions and munchkins. I did not intend it to be an attack, but as I failed to correctly use my "canvas" of online forum, to get across my theme of "jocular dismissal" I need to in the future be more careful.

If telling a shadowrun story means crafting the theme and motif of your game purely from rules then your game will begin to feel more "stifled" very quickly. If you are going for a claustraphobic "big brother" game where magic is limited by metagame rules, then that is what you will succeeed in. If this is your goal (and these games can be wonderfully fun) there are some other steps you are probably taking to accomplish it, and ultrasound hearing would not be appropriate to the theme of your game.

If you want magic to feel natural, and "part of the world" then I would be hard pressed to explain to a player why a character cannot learn to magically hear the location and rough density of objects.

Summation to Long Winded Post
Shadowrun is a game where each game is different. Discussions over whether or not something is "possible" in the Shadowrun universe is subject only to the universe of one persons game. While the authors of Shadowrun give us a large set of tools to tell our stories, in the end, it is our job (and there wish) for us to tell those stories as we see fit. If they did not want us exploring these situations in our own games, they would have written novels.

This discussion should be more veered towards why we each choose to allow, or not allow, ultrasound sight for physical adepts in our game. As clear cases could be made for both opinions, but neither side will ever be "right" as each Gamemasters game is different.