First off Raife, let me apologize. Doc's combative nature got the best of me and I responded harsher then I intended. I am sorry for the reactionary quip. Don't judge me too harshly, at least until you meet me in person.

Daredevil's power, for those wondering, is that his 4 senses (he's blind) are extreamly powerful. His hearing is such that he can tell the location and shape of an object from the way sound waves bounce off it. He doesn't make the sounds himself, he can just hear the way the sounds from other things (cars, machinery, etc) bounce. Daredevil is in many ways a perfect example of an adept... a normal human with extraordinary powers of perception, as well as some amazing athletic and combat ability.

JaronK

Right until present day (and some earlier) butchered the original concept and took a character which was supposed to have no superhuman abilities except for his senses and have him soaking damage and falling from heights that only a mutant could survive. That comic suffered horrible writer one upmanship until his performance is sometimes WELL into the mutant/superhuman range of performance when supposedly he is totally natural in those regards. I freaking hate comic book writers sometimes.

Blind Fighting always gives you a +4 bonus for purposes of blind fire or full darkness. There is no defense against it, and there's no way to detect it short of assensing the target. It works just as well against Invisibility and Ruthenium as anything else does because it's not a visual sense. It also defeats Stealth and Silence spells since it has no reliance whatsoever on sound, either. In fact, no Indirect Illusions short of a multisense one will affect an adept with Blind Fighting since it provides a completely new "sixth sense."

Ultrasound Vision, on the other hand, has numerous defenses against its use and can be detected in numerous ways. The best benefit it provides is equal to Blind Fighting. Stealth and Silence spells will "blind" the sense as surely as an Invisibility spell will, and White Noise Generators can actually worsen their visual penalties beyond a mere +8 until the adept takes the Simple Action to deactivate the power... at which point he's not only wasted an action but is also stuck in the same visual position as his comrades. It pales so very much in comparison to Blind Fighting... there's no way it should be worth the same. Especially since it does nothing to help with the Blind Fire penalty.

Well, unless you want to increase the cost of other Improved Senses, too. Take a look at what natural Thermographic Vision can do sometime. It equal or (more often) trumps Ultrasound Vision AND Blind Fighting against darkness penalties as well as giving you NO penalties whatsoever against Mist, Smoke, Rain, Fog, and White Noise. A White Noise Generator doesn't do jack to them, nor do Silence or Stealth Spells, but Invisibility works just fine and the benefits of Ruthenium Polymers are cut in half. Surely that means it should cost 0.5 points, too, right?

How about Select Sound Filter 5? That's only 0.25 Power Points, but it provides +5 dice on all Hearing Perception Tests. The Enhanced Perception power only grants a single +1 bonus with all five senses, but it costs 0.50 Power Points. Does that mean Improved Sense: Select Sound Filter should have its cost increased to 0.5 Power Points, too, to avoid turning adepts into these imaginary munchkins of tjn's?

Improved Sense: Vision Magnification provides up to a -3 target number bonus on all ranged attacks. That seems awful cheap for 0.25 Power Points too, huh? Guess it needs to be hiked up as well to avoid these horrible munchkins and their powergaming players.

Don't even get me started on Improved Sense: Spatial Recognizer. That's sheer munchkinism if ever I heard of it right there. Especially if some munchkin powergaming player combines it with Select Sound Filter and High Frequency Hearing.

Microscopic Vision is probably even worse! It gives adepts a -2 target number when using Electronics and Computers B/R -- those are clearly skills outside their domain according to tjn, so that's PURE munchkinism right there! I dare say 0.5 Power Points isn't even worthy enough for this munchkin piece of crap -- it should be banned, period!

Balance Augmentation is way overpowered, too. Not only does it provide a -2 target modifier on any balance-related test, but it grants adepts a -2 target modifer against Knockdown. Even the purely internal power of Rooting <cough> doesn't do that! It just gives an extra die per leve to avoid Knockdown... and everyone knows a target modifier is more powerful than extra dice. Munchkin bait if ever I heard it.

etc.

Does it ever occur to you that the best way to get people to accept points is not to cover them in pure shit?

Something that *cough* some fastfood restaurants still have not yet learned.

All other points aside (cus im about to actually RUN some Shadowrun) I would like to direct you to the Daredevil movie. It's a perfect example of both a Physical Adept, and how I invision ultrasound vision.

Part of the problem we may be having is a discrepency in how we view how an adept version, and a sam version would work.

I figure an adepts version of the power works like daredevil in the movie, while a samurai version looks more like Vector Graphics (like the old Star Wars gang).

Blind Fighting specifically states that its a new "sixth sense," which by definition does mean it's a sense, but the only mechanical benefit listed for it is a +4 modifier for Blind Fire (which no other sense, including Ultrasound Vision, grants which is why it's a 0.5 point power) and Full Darkness penalties. It's no fault of mine that they decided not to expand on it. Shadowrun has a nasty habit of just waving a hand past adepts so that they can spend as few pages on them as possible.

Invisibility only affects vision. A blind character with Blind Fighting has no vision to affect, so the spell has no effect on them. They'll sense them as easily as they sense anyone else. They're not actually detecting them, they're just not vulnerable to it. Same goes for ruthenium, though the weird rules for ruthenium still grant a penalty equal to half the number of scanners. Don't ask me why.

If players in your games aren't using Stealth or Silence spells, and security doesn't bother with dirt-cheap ultrasound detectors, that's no fault of mine. It doesn't negate the fact that Blind Fighting has no penalties or requirements whereas Ultrasound Vision has numerous. One is valued at 0.5 Power Points and the other -- despite your preference otherwise -- is valued at 0.25 Power Points. Works just fine for me.

But how anyone, such as tjn, could consider Ultrasound Vision munchkiny is beyond me. Especially considering the benefits of numerous other augmented senses.

I guess you're using Blind Fighting in a much nicer way than I do. In my games it only helps you make attacks against opponents that you can't see. If you expand it to become Darkvision or something similar, then you're certainly right to price them differently.

I'm not expanding it in anyway. Invisibility only affects vision. If a blind adept with the Blind Fighting power encounters a subject under an Invisibility spell, he'll detect him as easily as he would without the spell because the spell has no effect on him. And because he's detecting him just as easily as he does anyone else, he's only at a +4 target modifier to attack him because of the power.

It might be overanalyzing things but in the M&M description for ultrasound vision, the last sentence reads: "Cybernetic ultrasound sight is affected by mana-based indirect illusions spells (in addition to physical spells), because it has been purchased with Essence."

The way that reads, I understand that there is an other type of ultrasound vision (e.g., natural), elsewise it would not have been qualified with term "Cybernetic". The author would have simply stated "Ultrasound sight is affected..."

Thoughts?

Necromancy much?

Whereas others disagree that emission is a valid power.

~J

Well if they absolutely *have* to have it, then I argue that it's balanced at .5PP for the sense. I'm not going to get into whether or not they should be able to get it at all; we'll leave that up to the individual's call.

I'm definately supporting the notion that an Adept could recieve a sense similar to Ultravision. - However, its inaccurate to call it vision, its based on sound and even the cybernetic version is not a vision, the reciever unit is listening for High Frequency sounds, which is why the ear implant can replace the vision implant for reduced essence cost.

The only thing Visual in the cybernetic sense is the processed image that is returned on the retinas on the user.

I'll try to make a diagram to show what I mean:

OUTPUT: Ultrasonic Pings.

INPUT: Echoes.

OUTPUT (to user): Echoes translated according to relative loaction and overlaid normal vision. (Think Terminator scanning people for fitting clothes)

Now the Adept can already get High Frequency Hearing. But its not "innate" that hes also very good at discerning the echoes.

The Adept can also get spatial recognition, allowing him to isolate each item making a noise in his surrounding. Ok, now he could probably describe the echo, making for "poor" ultrasonic vison.

Now, if the adept invests in a New power, that we call Echolocation, then we give him the ability to emit ultrasonic "pings" with his mouth. (Which I actually think most people already CAN, we just can't hear it and most do not practice.) And allow the Adept to make detailed audio inspired maps of his surrounding, moving targets will be "hazed" by the vector they move in, each "ping" emitted will refresh the location of items, making the adept click faster when he's trying to nail exact precision.

Getting a mechanical ultrasound emitter, which is readily available for a few k, the Adept doesn't even need to click for himself. The emitter does so at high frequency.

The Adept Ultrasonic Vision is split up into 2-3 sensory powers, depending on the GM, and the emitting part is natural to normal humans.

The difference between Echolocation and true Ultrasonic Vision would be that Echolocation is applicable to a much broader spectrum of sound, where the Ultrasound sense is ultrasonic. - Using "normal" sound vs. ultrasound will also be more inaccurate due to the rebound delay as normal sound is slower.

Finally, the Adept cannot transmit his "mindmap" of his area to his allies, and he cannot "save" the images as a map for later use. The power is thus weaker than any mundane can get with a pair of nice shades..

The Adept Power Blindfighting sets a maximum visibility modifier of +4 and is completely impervious to whitenoise or other interference, its pure magical detection.

Utravision is more applicable to other vision, as it halves visibility modifiers. - But looking at the visibility table on page 112 of SR3, you'll see that the "best" vision in all situations except, except in a hot area, is therm vision. Adding Ultrasound to that, you get a visibility mod. of max +1, +2 in thermal smoke.

Blindfighting costs 0.5 PP's. Most people in this thread argue that Ultrasound vision should demand prerequisite powers (myself included), but some end up at 0.5, or two powers, where I would lean more along 3 powers needed, since ultrasonic vision is "better" than simple blindfighting. - Note though that ultrasonic vision has a range due to the speed of sound and can be modified by ambient noise (althoug with spatial recognizion you should be able to compensate)

What it boild down to, in my opinion, is that YES Utrasonic Vision is applicable as an Adept power. And there is no doubt for me that its a multiple sense power and its hearing based, not visual.

The final price in PP would depend on the local GM, which powers he demands is purchased. I suggest, humbly, the following:

High Frequency Hearing. - To pick up the signal at all.
Spatial Recognizion. - To discern echoes from ambient noise.
Echolocation. - (NEW POWER) To interpret the echoes well enough to "see" the world with sound.

Technically I do not see a problem with echolocation also allowing you to pick up sound from lower frequencies, imagine the sound translated to colors, high frequency is white on black, slower sounds scale to red or green and a "blur" will travel after a fast moving target, signalling the vector and speed of said target.

Overlaid with normal vision it would work nicely to reinforce visual with your hearing to better locate stuff in darkness, smoke etc. explaining the halved visual penalty.

And none of this is outside the scope of Canon. Its just not IN the Canon specifically, however the two describing sentences in the book are fulfilled in my model.

I would allow it, because there are two criteria for the Imp. Sense adept power:
1. provided by cyberware
2. doesn't deal with thing like radio waves.

As ultrasonic vision meets both of those criteria, I would allow it.

Besides, what does it let you do? Halve visibility modifiers. That isn't game-brakingly broken.