Stick with the Willpower.
If people don't want to use it, that's fine.

imo, exactly that.
Before, Sorcery was what made you able to cast.
Now, it makes you cast MUCH better than without it.

You would only need Centering that high to totally eliminate the defaulting penalty. It could still be useful at a lower level to eliminate some of that penalty.

I think the point is that you really can't pull off being a low level centering character because of the cost of expenditures it takes to do it.

Not a waste because you can use it for so much more. Kind of like the usefulness of a power focus. Many people overlook how many different uses there are for a focus. But I was just pointing it out to show how to do it without a GM saying "noboddy has a skill of 16".

hmm...so we end up with another form of a mage...interesting

But I'm pointing out the fact that we are also behind describing the exact way magic works and moving on to how this "possibly" could be pimped or if there is an offset out there. I agree a character with Centering that high really just needs to pick up the skill. But sometimes an old character decides to change his focus due to an invisible ceiling, boredom, or shits and giggles and needs to compensate for bit while building new skill.

Any other ideas?

I see it as solid as it's written.
Simple.

Default to Will
No Spell Pool.

Don't roll your eyes at me. The topic had been brought up multiple times.

I don't blame you...that's why I put in a "jump to page 4 for the results of this arguing" edit back on page 2.

Is it just me or did this thread become one of the longest in a while excluding an obvious hitter like the SOTA64 thread?

Anyways, if it is allowed, I agree no spell pool or dice from foci. That requires use of the actual skill. I agree +4 target numbers per defaulting. So, is there any other skills YOU would or would not allow to be used in conjunction? Centering has been mentioned. My GM already said no but I think it was before any thought on it was really made on how good Centering would have to be. Say...can spirits aid? Would this have any effect on Ritual sorcery? Any effect on Dispelling, redirection, absorption.... anything?

Sorcery and Conjuring are about the only ones I'd allow. Centering is definitely a no-no since it is a learned technique rather than an instinctual ability, but I would consider it for Divination and Aura Reading (for those abilities that directly use the skill, like Psychometry). But I doubt it.

Spirits could assist, sure, and they would be a very valuable asset. The TN would still be there, however. Ritual Sorcery might work, but no group would want them to join in since his modifier would (or should) be applied to all of their tests seeing as how he's the weak link in the chain.

Yeah, I noticed that this thread is quite beefy myself.
But then again...that just means something good is in here.

I could go start a pocket secretary thread...

Default to Will, check.

Magic Background Knowledge Skill, check.

Magic Attribute more than 1, check.

Adepts can cast spells... Yes?

<just rolls his eyes>

Cool, then what is the big deal on those pesky adept mages?

Well since toturi is trying to make the blatant point of unless ANYONE with a willpower can cast spells, lets focus on why toturi keeps spitting it out.

First, everyone else seems to agree that the Magic attribute must be available to even do the slightest magical task. toturi is the only one excluding that point.

Second, by ignoring this point toturi continues by trying to devalue the argument by saying if a full mage can do it than the fact that they are willing it has nothing to do with what they ARE CAPABLE of doing it magically but are just relying on Willpower to control all magic.

Third, going further toturi then says since it is only Willpower then everyone who has been restricted in the past should have no problems accessing the magic.

My response to you is this.
1. Most of us agree the Magic attribute is what lets you tap into the magic.
2. You can only manipulate with your willpower what you normally have access to doing with a skill your Magic class allows. (Can't really rig without a VCR yet you can still drive. Your class would not be a rigger but a driver. This has a big difference in advantages and capabilities.)
3. The magical background is the knowledge of how magic works so implying that the knowledge has to be there (implying a sorcery skill) is partially true. That is why magical background (more appropriate for understanding the working of magic per everyones description on knowledge requirement) is a complimentary skill re-enforcing the rest of the capabilities of Sorcery. Sorcery itself should IMOO not be used for knowledge roles unless the knowledge skill is absent. Then per rules you can use half the active skill.

1) I agree with Magic Attribute being essential to spellcasting. That is why I withdraw my previous statement about mundanes.

2) I have no concept of "classes" in Shadowrun. Pray tell, where is this mysterious Magic class you mentioned, Gilthanis?

3) Since mundanes too can have the Magic Background, I do not really quite get your point.

My points are based off your previouse arguments you've thrown in like allowing mundanes to manipulate magic with willpower. Now that you've aknowledged the need for Magic atrribute above 0, then the problem solved there.

Then you mentioned adepts casting magic which to me was implying a problem with "class". (for lack of better short description depicting differences) Again, there is no real problem there because a physical mage can still do the same as a sorcerer, conjuerer, or full mage when it comes to defaulting. The physical adepts are already in a way willing the magic and don't rely much on "Spellcasting/Sorcery/Conjuring". I don't have SOTA64 so can't vouch for it, but most physad abilities don't require such a skill. Again implying a willful control.

As far as mundanes using magical knowledge, they are still limited to just textbook style knowledge and not necessarilly having field knowledge. Big difference but are categorized under one skill. A good GM would seperate these.

how in the world did you come to that conclusion? the Sorcery skill can't default, even for use in astral combat.

i've read the thread, and i meant what i said. this whole argument is just trying way to hard.

mfb, I have no intention, and I'm sure no one else does, of repeating an argument. If you've read the whole thread then you know our reasons for the rule and our stance on it.
If you don't like it and you've read the whole thread, you also know that you can simply not post here if it offends you to see such a rule.

No third edition book uses "adept" to refer to an aspected mage. "Adept" has come to mean only physical adepts.

Toturi:
Please don't confuse spending build points/priority to be able to use certain magics with gaining the sorcery skill. Yes, under these house rules, adepts can default to Will in astral combat just like Stumps said. No they cannot cast spells even when they have and use the full sorcery skill. You aren't arguing well. I know you have a fixed idea about the workings of magic, and that is fine, but you're not representing your points clearly.

Actually....my present question that I never had arise before (because I hadn't made an adept in 3rd yet) is this...

SR3, Adpets, p. 168.
"Followers of the somatic way, adepts do not use magical skills to perform magic in the same way as magicians (though they can use Sorcery in astral combat: see p. 174). The cannot astrally project, and cannot use astral perception unless it is purchased as a power. Instead, adepts focus their magic on the improvement of body and mind. The adept's way is one of intense training and self-discipline."

I could be wrong on this...but....don't you need to be astrally projected to cast astral spells in astral combat???

Kanada Ten...

It's just been a very long long thread where there are a small group of us who would like to persue this rule but continually have to swat away all these posts arguing against the concept of the house rule being used because it's not canon and we don't really care if it's canon but no one seems to care that we don't care that it's not canon....so excuse me if I get a little annoyed...I really try not to.

And yet mfb completely ignored the well acknowledged admission that this is a house rule. Of course you can't default sorcery in canon. That is not being argued. The question is whether or not it would unbalance a game or even be plausible. mfb's first statement was a complete non-sequitur. mfb's second statement gave no real insight into why he doesn't like this house rule or why he thinks it would cause problems. I personally don't see it as trying too hard by removing an exception to the general rules about defaulting and pools.