Uhm, Stumps, you're not quite getting what I was saying. Say you're defaulting to an Attribute. All your TNs are +4. So to hit a TN of 3 you actually have to roll a 7. In essence, an actual roll of a 4, 3, 2, and 1 is identical to a roll of a 5 for you. That's why I put it at 5 originally but then dropped it to 3 to be kind.

And by that metaphor, the mage would take the time to learn the skill.

It is not "MAGIC!" and the notion of defaulting while casting a spell is not consistant with the very foundation of the tradition itself.

And by that theory, no one can use any skill without learning the skill. So you should either use defaulting or you shouldn't. There's no reason despite your poor-attempts to "prove" otherwise that Sorcery and Conjuring are exceptions to the rules (other than that they are, illogically as they, exceptions to the rules). If you don't like the house rule, feel free not to use it.

No Doc. That's not what I said. And my "poor attempts to 'prove' otherwise" is rather a poor attempt to describe the basics of magical theory.

Knowledge is integral to the act of working magic, in some form. However knowledge is not universally required of all skills.

If Knowledge was required, it would be Intelligence-linked. Sorcery is about willing an effect into being. Practically every description of it revolves around honing your will and focusing your emotion into the act. The only thing remotely intellectual about Sorcery comes from designing and, to a lesser extent, learning a spell... and that's still preserved.

I could then point to, oh, Computers, Electronics, and even Biotech as actual Intelligence-linked Knowledge-based skills that you can default with, too.

I guess that ties in with the too much karma pool thread.

That's not true! I personally defaulted to my key chain (at a +4 of course) once to fix my truck.

You got jipped, yer only 'sposed to have a +2 for inadequate tools.

Well tjn your argument seems lacking because you keep bouncing between basing ALL Magic as knowledge first Active second. Since the PC would be a mage, they have some knowledge of Magic as they dabble and get instruction. The spellcasting skill implies that they have had some guidence or practice in the art. But that doesn't mean they can't feel the magic running through their veigns. It does not mean that they can't see the Astral (yes still magic here) with their astral perception without someone first teach Aura Reading. It does not REQUIRE an astral projection skill to actually project. So requiring the skill to actually cast spells (and let us not forget Conjuring is included here guys) would be pretty ballsy considering your whole description of how magic and magic theory works is completely opinion only with a few generic descriptions from the book to support the thesis.

I on the other hand still see no reason why EVERY other skill in the game defaults back to an attribute if you don't have the appropriate skill accept Magic which IS linked to the Willpower attribute.

Now, to clear up everyone staging up botching for making it more difficult. The most important reason to default is if per se you had a skill of one. So botching should not change. The +4 is a pretty nasty bonus to the target number considering that most spells on average would be an 8 or higher (after +4 penalty) and you normally wouldn't have more than 6 dice (6 Willpower) to cast. That is pretty tough even for a lame and weak spell. Odds are you will just fizzle the spell and no harm done. Don't forget background count and other hindrances here. And don't forget that if you only get one success the oppossition will probably get more. So, defaulting wouldn't be over cheese.

No, that would be Magic Background which is a Knowledge (with a capital K) Skill, as opposed to Sorcery or Conjuring which are Active Willpower-based Skills. They have very little to do with knowledge; they deal with your training in using those abilities.

Casting a spell is very similar to using a utility in the Matrix on the surface. You can default to Computers (Sorcery) if you like, though you're going to suck when doing so, but no matter how trained or untrained you are you're not going to be able to use a Black Hammer utility (cast a Powerbolt spell) unless you have the utility (know the spell).

Centering against penalties to offset the defaulting penalty, a mage can focus on increasing willpower and centering instead of sorcery, conjuring, centering, and maybe willpower. The willpower increase also makes drain easier to handle. If you don't allow spell pool on these tests, that just means they will have spell pool on defense at all times.

I haven't checked to see if it is a net karma savings.

/em takes a really big breath.

Ok, my simple example of my recent point. Much is in the list at the end, because I wanted to focus on easily quantified differences that are consistant regardless of character generation method.

base mage:
human (RM = 9, RML = 6)

start:
6 willpower
6 intelligence
(6 sorcery)
(6 conjuring)
6 artistic (knowledge)
6 centering

A: raise all skills by 2
30 for sorcery, 30 for conjuring, 30 for centering, 22 for artistic


B: raise willpower and centering skills by 2
45 for willpower, 22 artistic, 22 centering

things not quantified: savings from not using BP in conjuring/sorcery, consequences of always using up centering on reducing the defaulting penalty, bonus to sorcery drain resistance for higher willpower, loss of potential drain resistance due to lack of sorcery dice

tjn...I was joking. Take another breath. I'm not out to get you or pick arguments.

I'll stick to what I always say. I don't really care what the books say about this and that when it comes to house rules. Mainly this is because SR openly tells the reader, at the beginning of the book, to change things you don't like or think could work better.
That means the entire book, not a part, is open for game. Including flavor, history, and the mechanics.

In this case, a player doesn't think that something adds up, so they want to change it. What they appear to want is a check on the balance of adjusting it.
Not really a "rationality check"

As an additional comment, I get the feeling that those of you opposed to the idea (mechanically) don't use the defaulting rules that often. Defaulting to an attribute is vicious and definitely something that's a last-ditch effort.

To prove the point, compare two magicians. They are identical in all ways except one has Sorcery 6 and the other does not. They both have Willpower 6, Magic 6, and Spell Pool 6 and neither have any foci or other related abilities or tricks. Now let's say they're casting a Powerbolt on a dwarf with Body 4. They're both casting a Force 4 spell and doing so with a base of Moderate damage.

Skilled Magician has a TN of 4 and can roll up to 12 dice for the test, granting him about 6 successes on average. Unskilled Slacker has a TN of 8 and can only roll 6 dice since his Spell Pool is useless to him, and thus is lucky if he gets even one success but we'll assume he managed one.

The dwarf resists (TN 4 with Body 4) and gets two successes. Against the Skilled Magician, he just took a Deadly wound and goes down for the count. Against the Unskilled Slacker, he brushed it off without so uch as a scratch and returns fire on the jackass who just tried to fry him because he was a cheapstake who didn't want to pay someone to teach him how to cast spells effeciently..

Oh, how tragically broken. <rolls his eyes>

Doc really summed it up perfectly well on the mechanical end of things there.

But I have a few comments regarding game "ethics" as it seems it's producing itself into.

Thanks everyone for bringing us back to the real topic. Magic and how it really works (I snicker every time someone says that) will always be a debate because of the wide variety of magics in the game. Look at the Psionics for crying out loud. Like it was mentioned before. I am looking for reasons that this could be unbalancing. The +4 target number is pretty nasty as it stands. Centering is the one thing that could possibly reduce this, but since a situation that this could be beneficial would be so rare that it wouldn't be offsetting. (please refer to previous Karma expenditures example)

Now on the THEORETICAL idea of the magic. IMOO I would have to say that all Magi at the beginning have to start pure willpower. You don't understand sorcery your first time dabbling and therefore are "freeballing" it to acquire the knowledge needed for a skill of one. After that it would make since to stand on the foundation you've built. But, most people would agree that if you have a low skill that trading off a higher target number (an easy chance at failing the spell which is the true goal) to avoid a total and utter botch (always a secondary or thirdary... effect of failing) is a valid choice.

So lets come up with some ways this could POSSIBLY be offsetting. Shall we?

Actually...*snicker*...I was thinking...this is potentially evil really.
If a character with Phsyonics mentally sent an image to a mage, who doesn't have the Formula fresh/or at all in their mind, of a spell Formula they "happened" (for some odd ass reason) to know the image of...hehe....

Just a random screwball that could be fun to pluck at with the defaulting mage concepts...but would be more like a temporary skill rating = to some value of relation to the Physonics ability to send and the Mages ability to cast mixed together. Some high tax to the Phsyonic character would be the result I think.

(opens can-o-worms and runs)

To sum up the results of what we debated a result of...

Maybe in your game, but not in mine. I'm perfectly fine with the idea that spellcasters (and conjurers) have to actually know how to manipulate mana, which is well-represented by the appropriate skills and the requirement of foreknowledge of the specific spell required. I don't see the need to change this, but YMMV.

Oh yeah...thanks for reminding me Fortune..

I'm not saying knowledge of the spell is absent. The formula should be known. Just having a skill in it should be treated like EVERY other skill in the game. Defaulting to the Attribute for whatever reason should be allowed. You could totally learn the spell using the attribute but only with a +4 target number which is tremendous when trying to learn spells. Learning a force 6 would be target number 16. The debate is whether the skill MUST be present to even be capable of casting or conjuring and the idea that you can do anything without skills by defaulting to an attribute except for sorcery and conjuring is kind of funky. Everyone implying the idea of casting a specific spell (let's say manabolt) without learning the formula is absurd. But, that doesn't mean you don't have the ability to manipulate the energies without using a different approach. This is how we get different traditions, formulas, and techniques.

I wasn't trying to be a dick. I was merely expressing my opinion on the matter.

well...then how can we resolve this?

1) You want a default.
2) A (census??) answer on whether you can cast a spell without the skill (to which I will always say, "no, the book says you can't"...but should you be able to...sure, with the right rules)
3) You want a "randomizer(??)" to make it so you can't choose the spell you will cast un-skilled?
4) And doc suggested the Pool change for balance.

[edit]Don't worry Fortune, I knew you weren't being a dick...you're Fortune!! I was actually being serious when I said thanks, cause if you read back...there's ALOT of opinion on whether this rule concept needs to exit, but really VERY little on the rule itself...and I didn't want to really spark that opinion "should it, shouldn't it be used" conversation all over again. I can understand how you would voice your opinion because I had nothing stating the debate on it prior to your post, hence the "thank you"[/edit]

What's there to resolve? Those against it are against it on general principal, misguided as that principal is.

point number 2 and 3

Gilthanis added to the overall request's clearity of desire in his post above...2 and 3 are really almost a question of double checking to him from me on that.

Which, of course, opens up the can of worms:

Can mundanes cast spells?

Since defaulting to Willpower is allowable and knowledge of spell design is not limited to Awakened only (this is Canon), mundanes can now cast spells using the above House Rule. Their Magic is 0, so they will always suffer physical drain but they can cast spells.

no. We are talking about Skill. Not Magic rating.
Just because you Default to Will doesn't mean that you bypass the pre-requisit of needing at least 1 Magic point.

I feel the skill should be there for any professional magi with spellcasting or conjuring (whichever you want to default). But, the character could just slap a skill of 1 on there and start defaulting away to their hearts desire. I am looking more towards if there would be any pimpage issues with it in some way. Kinda like what I brought up earlier with the spell defense scenario. I agree spell defense should be affected by the defaulting and vice versa, but not eliminated altogether. Now with that mentioned... is there any other concerns? I have heard people mention not allowing Centering to eliminate penalties. I could go either way on that. What else could be effected or used to utilize the defaulting?

ok...

Default to Will (CHECK)
Cannot apply Spell Pool to spell defense without applying any Sorcery dice (CHECK)

Inability to choose exact spell but does cast something (big void there)

I would say something like this for the caster not being able to claim "I'm defaulting mana bolt!"

The Defaulting Caster may claim the "style" or "class" of the spell they are trying to cast, but the specific spell is determined by the GM.

Does that work?? yes? no? (totally out of my ass on that one)

Now, now Doc. Take it easy. I know it's been a rough thread.

Bah.

Tell you what, those opposed to the ideas of defaulting to Willpower because it represents a lack of "knowledge" for how to cast a spell (despite the spell formula giving you all the instructions you need -- we'll continue to ignore that since it's a blatant bit of a proof contrary to your point of view), how about defaulting to Magic Background?

*lol*

so does this work?

The Defaulting Caster may claim the "style" or "class" of the spell they are trying to cast, but the specific spell is determined by the GM.

Nah, I don't care for that at all. Knowing the spell's formula is a *must* for voluntary spellcasting.

If you want to work on including a whole new mechanic for spontaneous magic... that's something I'd rather not help with. Way too big and a massive change to the entire system (both mechanically and balance-wise).

Ok, I only threw that out there cause Gilthanis asked for it...but I really wasn't looking for that to make alot of sense cause I look at Physical Adpets as being magicians who haven't quite got their spell casting finited.
A good amount of their powers are rather "scattery" and not direct.
"Magical" punches, etc...