Grenades and explosives have variable target numbers in their area of effect, too. So do shotguns using shot and choke settings. So by your complete dismissal of allowing defaulting to Sorcery on the grounds of variable TNs, you have to use that same logic for every other skill in the game.
That means no one can default with Thrown Weapons since Thrown Weapons is used to throw a grenade. Demolitions can't be defaulted from for the same reason. Shotguns, too. Same goes for Gunnery, Launch Weapons, and any other skill that has even a remote use that might possibly include variable TNs. (Sure seems to cover a lot of skills in the game, huh?)
Is that spelled out enough for you? Or do you need page references?
Full Version: Shouldn't Sorcery Default to Intelligence?
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| Is that spelled out enough for you? Or do you need page references? |
It's spelled out that you don't understand what I've been saying. Grenades do not have variable TNs within the use of Thrown Weapons when you go to use the skill. The target number doesn't change per target only per use, same with all other skills. All skills other than Socery have only one target number per use.
And that's not the only oddity of Sorcery as I've spelled out in multiple posts.
SR3 p. 117, Shotguns: "Every time a shot round increases its spread, it loses 1 point of power. Every time the shot spreads, subtract -1 fromt he attacker's target number. That means a shot on a choke setting of 2 would be -2 target number at the six meter point, while a choke setting of 5 shot would be -2/-2 at fifteen meters, and then -3/-3 at twenty meters."
Sure looks like there's at least one other skill out there that has a variable TN to me. Against someone at point-blank range, the TN might be 8 (invalid for defaulting) whereas at 15 meters away it might be 5 (valid for defaulting). So by your logic (and your personal preference not to use the canon rules for shotguns not-withstanding), the Shotguns skill can never be defaulted to because of that one particular phenomenon... just like Sorcery and area effect spells. Thus if there's even a remote possibility that any other skill might possibly have a variable TN, it can't be defaulted to. At least according to what I'm getting from what you've been trying to say the last few posts.
Look, the house rule is there for one major reason: To toss a bone to players who either 1) totally forgot to add Sorcery to their character sheet but don't want to be rendered useless as they start earning Karma to get one and 2) create characters that revolve around that entire concept to begin with. It fits the theme of magic in the game and even with some of the weird examples you and a few others have tried to throw out it's not even remotely game-breaking mechanically.
You don't like it and have no intention of using it whatsoever. We get that.
Sure looks like there's at least one other skill out there that has a variable TN to me. Against someone at point-blank range, the TN might be 8 (invalid for defaulting) whereas at 15 meters away it might be 5 (valid for defaulting). So by your logic (and your personal preference not to use the canon rules for shotguns not-withstanding), the Shotguns skill can never be defaulted to because of that one particular phenomenon... just like Sorcery and area effect spells. Thus if there's even a remote possibility that any other skill might possibly have a variable TN, it can't be defaulted to. At least according to what I'm getting from what you've been trying to say the last few posts.
Look, the house rule is there for one major reason: To toss a bone to players who either 1) totally forgot to add Sorcery to their character sheet but don't want to be rendered useless as they start earning Karma to get one and 2) create characters that revolve around that entire concept to begin with. It fits the theme of magic in the game and even with some of the weird examples you and a few others have tried to throw out it's not even remotely game-breaking mechanically.
You don't like it and have no intention of using it whatsoever. We get that.
| QUOTE |
| Sure looks like there's at least one other skill out there that has a variable TN to me. Against someone at point-blank range, the TN might be 8 (invalid for defaulting) whereas at 15 meters away it might be 5 (valid for defaulting). So by your logic (and your personal preference not to use the canon rules for shotguns not-withstanding), the Shotguns skill can never be defaulted to because of that one particular phenomenon... |
The target number at the time of use is not variable. Only Sorcery has variable TNs at the time of use. And that's only one of its oddities. The fact you have disallowed Spell Defense with defaulting only furthers my point.
| QUOTE |
| You don't like it and have no intention of using it whatsoever. We get that. |
You're dead set on using it. I could care less. I enjoy arguing for the sake of it; you should be used to it, I'd think. The reason I won't use it I've stopped arguing (Bah, the girl who manifests her abilities suddenly likely picked up the Sorcery skill from the myths and rituals of her culture and isn't defaulting) and stuck with figuring why they didn't allow it to begin with.
| QUOTE (Kanada Ten @ Oct 29 2004, 12:11 AM) |
| The target number at the time of use is not variable. Only Sorcery has variable TNs at the time of use. And that's only one of its oddities. |
Sorry charlie, but it is. See the quote above. Those are how you determine the variable TNs for determining the effect of the shot for anyone who would be caught anywhere in the area of efffect of the blast. It's no different than the variable TNs found when using Sorcery to cast an area effect; the only difference is the source of the variation (one's due to range, the other's due to OR and the like).
| QUOTE |
| The fact you have disallowed Spell Defense with defaulting only furthers my point. |
In a word: Whatever. Do you honestly prefer people who only go half-way when cooking up a house rule and leave as many stupid holes as humanly possible just to satisify some anonymous guy on the Internet who doesn't like the basic idea of the house rule, has no intention of ever using the house rule, and will doubtfully ever play in a game with the other guy coming up with the house rule?
| QUOTE |
| You're dead set on using it. I could care less. I enjoy arguing for the sake of it; you should be used to it, I'd think. |
I tend to argue for points that matter to me and would have some impact on the game that I play. I rarely, if ever, go into a thread to argue a point that has zero relevance to anything I will be involved with whatsoever.
| QUOTE | ||
In a word: Whatever. Do you honestly prefer people who only go half-way when cooking up a house rule and leave as many stupid holes as humanly possible just to satisify some anonymous guy on the Internet who doesn't like the basic idea of the house rule, has no intention of ever using the house rule, and will doubtfully ever play in a game with the other guy coming up with the house rule? |
I like house rules that are consitant with canon or at least with canon thought. If you've gone this far it makes more sense (and it really does) to make Spell Defense a seperate skill.
| QUOTE |
| I tend to argue for points that matter to me and would have some impact on the game that I play. I rarely, if ever, go into a thread to argue a point that has zero relevance to anything I will be involved with whatsoever. |
In a word: Whatever.
| QUOTE |
| I like house rules that are consitant with canon or at least with canon thought. If you've gone this far it makes more sense (and it really does) to make Spell Defense a seperate skill. |
I have no problem with that, either, if executed properly. Unfortunately, the result would have a huge impact on game balance since you would always be able to have 100% Spell Defense going without reprecussion.
Maybe if you guys could come up with some solid reasons for why it's not balanced, I wouldn't be aggitated by the pretty sad ones you've been using. We have one guy spewing out nonsense that because it's not expressely stated that adepts can't use Sorcery to cast spells, they can with this house rule. We have another guy declaring Sorcery should be banned from defaulting on the grounds that one particular effect that Sorcery can create has variable TNs that have the potential to take the TN beyond 8 (and to this point still hasn't conceeded that he's wrong about it being the only skill that has that effect). We have a few people spouting out how Centering can completely remove the defaulting penalty despite it being shown multiple time that it's patently untrue without obscene and unrealistic scores. And we have some other people trying to prove how defaulting with a munchkin-level amount of Willlpower also breaks the game even though it's been shown multiple time that that, too, is untrue.
So to quote both of us again after engaging full Valley Girl mode: Whatever.
I'll get to more later...but first real quick
| QUOTE |
| Therefore I have submitted that by going by their house rule a normal adept can cast a spell. |
No. As said earlier. The SR3 plainly states that an Adept cannot use Sorcery unless in Astral Combat.
| QUOTE |
| I have no problem with that, either, if executed properly. Unfortunately, the result would have a huge impact on game balance since you would always be able to have 100% Spell Defense going without reprecussion. |
Treat it as complemetary to the resistance test perhaps (and allow Spell Pool to be allotted as well)?
I never implied it wasn't balanced; in fact, I even once stated it was fine to default provided you had the Sorcery skill. But on reflection, I just think it doesn't make sense bacause Sorcery is so bizzare.
There are several ways in which Sorcery differers from every other skill:
1) You allot dice from the skill to a function while still maintaining some dice for another.
2) It is the only skill that has secondary karmatic expenditures (called spells) for full use.
3) It can serve as a melee skill but only in certain situations.
4) It is one of only two skills that cause Drain (the other being Conjuring).
5) It requires a unique attribute above zero but does not use that as the linked Attribute.
6) It is the skill which effects mulitple targets using variable TNs at the time of use (I just can't say it right I guess).
7) It is one of only two skills that can go from active to knowledge (switching its defaulting attribute even!).
While perhaps 'weak' reasons to treat Sorcery as undefaultable, they are true reasons.
The fact that uses of Sorcery differ from users of other skills isn't a very good reason for denying it the ability to default. You might as well claim it's not a skill at all and remove it from the skill system entirely. But if you do that, you'll have to do the same for all Combat Skills since they function differently from other skills in the game... followed by removing Vehicular Skills for the same reason. etc.
But to touch upon your points...
1) That would be one of the unique restrictions while defaulting. You're either all or nothing. Hell, I'd even allow you to use Spell Defense while defaulting in this fashion... either you're putting all your muster into defending yourself and your friends (albeit poorly with the +4 target number modifier for these extra dice on your Spell Resistance Tests), you're putting everyhing into fighting spirits on the astral, or you're putting everything you have into casting a spell you just barely were able to learn in the first place. You don't have the training in the fine control required to focus your attention on multiple tasks.
2) You should check out Otaku sometime.
3) So can melee skills. I don't see the point here. Especially since anyone with Magic 1 can use the skill while fighting on the astral anyway. If anything, that should be split into a new skill and to this day I honestly don't know why it's covered by Sorcery.
4) That's not a good reason at all. That's a secondary effect of the skill. You might as well be saying the same thing about Physical Skills because you can become fatigued while using them (complete with Athletics being used to stage it down).
5) I point again to Otaku.
6) I point again to Shotguns which can also affect multiple targets with a single shot complete with variable TNs at the time of use.
7) This point is just screwed up and I've argued it multiple times.
And yes, they are weak. But true or not, none of them are strong enough to demonstrate why it's broken, unbalanced, or breaks the flavor of the gameworld to allow defaulting.
But to touch upon your points...
1) That would be one of the unique restrictions while defaulting. You're either all or nothing. Hell, I'd even allow you to use Spell Defense while defaulting in this fashion... either you're putting all your muster into defending yourself and your friends (albeit poorly with the +4 target number modifier for these extra dice on your Spell Resistance Tests), you're putting everyhing into fighting spirits on the astral, or you're putting everything you have into casting a spell you just barely were able to learn in the first place. You don't have the training in the fine control required to focus your attention on multiple tasks.
2) You should check out Otaku sometime.
3) So can melee skills. I don't see the point here. Especially since anyone with Magic 1 can use the skill while fighting on the astral anyway. If anything, that should be split into a new skill and to this day I honestly don't know why it's covered by Sorcery.
4) That's not a good reason at all. That's a secondary effect of the skill. You might as well be saying the same thing about Physical Skills because you can become fatigued while using them (complete with Athletics being used to stage it down).
5) I point again to Otaku.
6) I point again to Shotguns which can also affect multiple targets with a single shot complete with variable TNs at the time of use.
7) This point is just screwed up and I've argued it multiple times.
And yes, they are weak. But true or not, none of them are strong enough to demonstrate why it's broken, unbalanced, or breaks the flavor of the gameworld to allow defaulting.
Wow people are really fired up on this one. Well here is my 14 cents. Even if you jack your willpower up in the double digits, your still WAY better off having a Sorc. of 6 + spell pool (not to mention how phat your spell pool will be with that will). So everyone agrees BY CANNON THIS CAN'T BE DONE. We know that, but I have been GMing for years and it will be a cold day in Hades before I stop a player from defaulting for that reason alone. If I have a PC willing to go out on a limb and make a spell caster, starting with no Sorc skill for RPing purposes, I am not going to stop them. Like I said above, even if you cheese the willpower to the point of swiss, it still is inferior to the skill. You can't apply centering since that only works for the skill roll, not for attribute rolls (which you would be making). There just isn't a balance issue here. I am so suprised people keep saying it is munchkin just because the book says you can't do it. I would be way more scared of a PC with SL-2 running around doing called head shots with glazer rounds then I ever would of a mage with no sorcery skill.
Are Otaku allowed to default? I don't have VR2 anymore, and never had Matrix so I really don't know, but it seems they won't be allowed to default like normal characters either.
| QUOTE (toturi) |
| [/QUOTE] No, they are changing the way Sorcery as a game mechanic works in the game. They are saying without learning Sorcery and a spell, a sorceror/full mage can cast a spell, althout it is one that the mage has no control over. I am playing devil's advocate by pointing out the big mess their house rule brings about. If anyone with no Sorcery or knowledge of a spell (ie he never bothered to learn a spell) can cast, then what is the parameters that are imposed? From my reading, they are: 1) Magic Attribute > 1 2) Default to Willpower from Sorcery/Conjuring Therefore I have submitted that by going by their house rule a normal adept can cast a spell. |
toturi, this is what I mean by you coming up out of no where saying people were implying that you didn't have to learn the spell to cast it. We have all said that you would need the spell to be known which by the way you could learn by defaulting to Willpower. So, to clear this up AGAIN, you would be defaulting to willpower to cast the spell that you already learned by possibly defaulting.
One additional point I wanted to mention about defaulting is that it's not intended to stop you from performing an action when the TN is 8+, it only means you're going to fail against that target number no matter what you roll so it's a moot point.
Well, unless you want to suggest that the metagaming gods swoop out of the sky and stop your character from pulling the trigger when you're aiming at something with a cumulative TN of 11 when defaulting to Quickness from Pistols.
Well, unless you want to suggest that the metagaming gods swoop out of the sky and stop your character from pulling the trigger when you're aiming at something with a cumulative TN of 11 when defaulting to Quickness from Pistols.
| QUOTE (Stumps) | ||
I'll get to more later...but first real quick
No. As said earlier. The SR3 plainly states that an Adept cannot use Sorcery unless in Astral Combat. |
oh...and to clear this up...
"No. As said earlier. The SR3 plainly states that an Adept cannot use Sorcery unless in Astral Combat."
Errata: Add "and that Sorcery Skill may only be used by the Adept as dice for a Melee Combat roll in the Astral Plane as per the normal SR3 rules." to the end of the sentence.
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