Wait...does using Sorcery in Astral Combat reffer to using the Dice from a Sorcery Skill as melee combat dice astraly??

Really, this does tie back in with the thread.

I am not the most creative munchkin, so I can't see and cheeseablity (sp? word?). I think the big +'s for defaulting make it fairly solid. It seems it would be most useful for playing the I-didn't-know-I-was-a-mage character.

[edit]There is one big problem, though, with this concept. Where did this character learn the spell? It would have to be taught or learned from a formula. He or she couldn't write his or her own formula because that is capped at the spell design or defaulting skill's level.[/edit]

You are seeking what is mostly a subjective answer. A few points were made as to flaws with the process, but you have dismissed them as negligable. Without comparing the full potential proglession of two otherwise equal mages, you probably won't find any more glaring holes in the idea, and you may not even then. I'd suggest a forced sell-back on some spell points for anyone who follows that path (I don't remember if anyone suggested that yet), but I think it will be less imbalanced than some of the currently acceptable options people complain about.

No I've got it...they weren't exact enough in the book. If you aren't thinking what they're thinking at the moment you read that it comes out like it's saying you can and cannot cast spells in Astral....

But anyways...
So we've got a new can here...

Adept with no Sorcery goes astral and Defaults to Willpower of 6 for a TN of X+4.

Two things...
1) could this be munchie? (I'm not seeing it as such with the +4 there it really keeps it in check)

2) The bigger mess...
Adept is astral Defaults Sorcery to Willpower of 6 for a TN of X +4 and uses Combat Pool (because he's an adept not a mage) to tackle that +4.

Is this possible??

Look, the point of the house rule (look the term up sometime people) is that some people feel that it's both not unbalancing and consistant with in-game logic for magicians to default to a raw attribute rather than rely on a skill should the need be there.

In no way whatsoever is anything else changed. Standard adepts cannot cast spells whether they're using the Sorcery skill or defaulting to Willpower. They just don't have the knack for doing so, just like sorcerers can't conjure spirits and conjurers can't cast spells. That's just the nature of the magical beast.

It's not a difficult concept to grasp. Jesus frelling Christ.

Doc, I don't think stumps implied the physical adept to cast a spell. Per the Sorcery description, Astral combat is a specialization (which includes astral melee). I think the Physad scenario he brings up is valid to the thread and possible cheese.

No offense, but...can you point that out to me? I'm really needing to see that cause I'm seeing nothing like that in here.

I did see this:
SR3, Astral Combat Tests, p. 174: "Astrally perceiving characters and other dual beings use their Pysical Attributes, skills and Combat Pool in astral combat."

That tells me that the Adept uses Combat Senses bonus to the Combat Pool and uses that Combat Pool in the astral combat.

Astral Combat Pool is only used by astral entities (which include projecting magicians). Dual-natured beings (including perceiving magicians) use Combat Pool even when battling astral entities.

Gilthanis: I was mostly responding to toturi's lame attempt to prove why it's a bad idea.

I know that...

But look...
Adept who's Astral uses Willpower Defaulted from Sorcery because his Will is higher than anything else going for him and he uses his Combat Pool dice to add extra dice to get over the +4 TN penalty for Defaulting and now has a 6D6 power attack!

I don't think there is a mechanical error that really is going to arise out of this rule...at least not unless the rule gets playtested

But on the other hand an increased attribute would be beneficial.

Whoptido. Give yourself Willpower 12 (base TN 4 = TN 8 = 1, maybe 2 successes if you're lucky) and compare what you can do with someone with Willpower 6, Sorcery 6, and Spell Pool 6 (TN 4 = 6 successes on average). Defaulting boy still sucks ass. At best, he has an advantage with Drain. So yay, he can cast tougher spells that are still not going to do very much. Good for him.

I think the allotting of Sorcery dice for Spell Defense presents a huge mechanical challenge to the entire concept, but hey.

But still has the option. I agree it isn't powerful. But, we are here to see if it can cheese enough to offset some how.

Not particularly. If a magician never bothered to develop their natural ability and can just barely get a spell off (by learning a specific formula that shows him how), he's not going to stand a chance at defending himself from hostile magicians. That's just another advantage that goes to the traditionally trained sorcerer.

On top of that, removing the exception to the standard dice pool rules for Spell Defense actually makes Sorcery a lot more balanced even if you don't want to use the defaulting house rule. Now if a magician wants to maintain Spell Defense he has to make a conscious effort to assign some of his Sorcery dice to it for the entirity of the Combat Turn. That means fewer dice for other endeavors.

First of all, good luck with that Increased Willpower 6 spell with a base Willpower of 6.

Second, that's definitely a choice you have. Hopefully you'll only ever run into average people with no defenses whatsoever when using your magic. And you better hope they don't get two successes on their resistance test, because that's all it takes to completely resist your spell on average (Willpower 12, TN 7, 1 success, 2 on a good day) with their 6 (Attribute 3 + Pool 3) dice.

And that's against a regular Joe Schmoe.

What pool does a mundane opponent get to resist manaball?

I was speaking in general terms, sorry. Combat Spells don't allow for standard dice pools. Your chances for taking out an average Joe Schmoe are still only marginal even after all that investment you made. You're only going to score a single success on average, and he's got a good chance of getting a single success on his Resistance Test, too, using your scenario.

Feel free to compare your scenario against someone worth attacking now. Let's say a Security Mage with Attributes of 5 across the board and 3 dice assigned to Shielding. Note that since you've already assigned all your Sorcery and Spell Pool dice to spell defense, you only have your Willpower 12 to rely on for the entire Combat Turn. Oh, and be sure to apply a few situational modifiers while you're at it; let's just go with +2.

... I thought manaball only affected mages and other astrally active entities?

Nope. It only affects living entities, however.

Ok, 12 dice vs 7: 12 *1/6 = 2
3 dice vs. 5: 3 * 2/6 = 1

More often:
6 dice vs. 3: 6 * 4/6 = 4

That +4 statistically halves your successes in such a case.
Karma pool usage is benefitted by the lower number as well.
There is one case where the 12 dice may help:
When you can center vs. the Tn penalty instead of using centering for extra successes. This only becomes relevant when you have no other TN mods.

Centering won't help much at all. You have the exact same target number and need two successes to negate a single +1 modifier. Even if your base TN was 0 (which it can't be, but I'm being really nice here), you'd need Centering 16 (and Artistic Skill 16) to reliably ignore your defaulting penalty.

As was mentioned earlier.

6 vs. 7: about 1 success.
ok, that won't help much.
In the specific example, 4 centering successes would be needed for any change in the results.
12 vs. 5: 12 * 2/6 = 4
And even then, no better than a real skill with 6 dice.

I don't use centering myself, and didn't remember if it provided some benefit based on initiatory grade on those tests. As I just reread, it doesn't.

Another mechanical oddity occurs because Sorcery is the only skill that had multiple target numbers in the same test. By the letter of the rules you can't default cast Powerball when Highly Processed Materials are in the Spell's Area of Effect because one cannot default when the TN is eight or above.

Or to explain that phenomenon, you say that you didn't have the training or the juice to affect such a highly processed object due to your lack of training. Just another reason why you should seek out professional-level training if you want to excel at your craft.

Just like any other skill.

Though I understand what you mean about the area of effect. All it really means is that you can't affect those objects because your spell isn't strong enough even if you roll a whole slew of 20's. Everything else is still a valid target in the area, however.

Except you can't default with the spell at all even to effect every other less than TN8 target if one such target is present. It's an oddity totally different from all other skills.

So K10, you are saying that as long as there is a target with TN > 8, the character cannot default?

But he still can default for a singular target spell such as powerbolt right?

The only thing you have to do is aim the area effect at something with a base TN of 8. Everything else in the area of effect just gets caught in the after effect; it's not your actual TN, but the TN to determine the effect it has on them (a subtle difference).

If you don't like that, change the wording just a touch. "A magician capable of using Sorcery can default to Willpower to cast their spells. Any target that would have a target number of 8 before the defaulting penalty is immune to the spell."

Assuming you simply have to have everything spelled out to you by the letter when scribing your own house rules rather than rely on good judgement and personal understanding.

EDIT: Note that it's no more odd than the rules for grenades or explosives.

Then I rest my case: Sorcery doesn't default like everyother skill and thus shouldn't have to default at all.

So you feel the same way for Thrown Weapons and Demolitions, eh? I imagine Shotguns are covered in there too, particularly those weilding shot.

To be honest I don't know about Thrown Weapons or Demolitions. I don't use canon shotguns so that's irrelevant. You've failed to sway me so you've resorted to being obtuse?