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Stumps
Doc, I'll have to re-read that again later when it's not 3am.

But what I'm reading so far in comprehension right now is something that was pretty much where my train of thought was headed. I was just getting there in a different way.
Shockwave_IIc
QUOTE (Stumps)
Shockwave _IIc
I can't bring myself to agree with you on your last point.
I have my reservations about making a rule for a penalty that encourages players to buy it off and thus negating the rule almost completely, by not balancing the scales of profit and loss.

Thats fair enough, wasn't saying that it should be done that way, just that it has been done that way before.
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (Stumps)
Doc, I'll have to re-read that again later when it's not 3am.

But what I'm reading so far in comprehension right now is something that was pretty much where my train of thought was headed. I was just getting there in a different way.

Essentially, yes. It's just a matter of perception. In essence, I firmly believe that racial characteristics should be purely physical in nature. They should have no bearing on social, educational, or psychological situations; that's for individual players to determine and reflect.

Like I said originally, if the Charisma and Intelligence penalties were due to brain damage caused by the goblinization process, I'd be cool with it. But the implication is that the Charisma penalty, at least, is based more upon perception of others and individual ugliness. For me, that's wholly inappropriate.
Stumps
The charisma problem can be thought of like this:
Imagine being an african american in 1894 who showed up at a social function.

It's not that you aren't charismatic as a Troll.
It's that people don't like you because you are a Troll.
So you show up in your best dress and (roll as per SR3 table on p.92) people in the party are going to hate you and thus nearly negate your charisma.

This is why I re-made the Racism Table and removed the Charisma negative.
If you look at it, it better reflects this instance, AND it leaves it COMPLETELY optional to the GM to use it when they feel that it's appropriate.

What doesn't make sense in SR is the negative to Charisma.
That makes no sense.

And I agree, the natural bonuses and negatives don't make any sense in SR anymore now that there are edges and flaws, especially since there are edges and flaws that have proven that Racially specific edges and flaws can exist.

The bonuses and negatives to races seems more like an out-dated system that hasn't streamlined with the other functions of the games newer slick versions of itself.
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE
The charisma problem can be thought of like this:
Imagine being an african american in 1894 who showed up at a social function.

It's not that you aren't charismatic as a Troll.
It's that people don't like you because you are a Troll.
So you show up in your best dress and (roll as per SR3 table on p.92) people in the party are going to hate you and thus nearly negate your charisma.

This is why I re-made the Racism Table and removed the Charisma negative.

As you mentioned, that's a social penalty. It shouldn't be an inherent racial trait, though it makes sense for it to be on a table of Social Skill Penalties or something (as appropriate to the situation). That is -- should be -- completely seperate from racial traits.
hyzmarca
There's also the fact that the penality applies when dealing with other Trolls. Sure, it is possibly reverse racism, but even that makes no sense when applied to astral combat. The Troll combat mage causes less damage than his human counterpart because the spirit he's hitting is a racist? Yes, that makes a lot of sense.

If I remember correctly, Trolls in Earthdawn had similar penalities. Sure, there was some anti-troll predjudice then but not nearly as much as in the Sixth world. It is simply a racial trait that offsets their absurd body and strength bonuses.

As I mentioned before, it doesn't take nearly as much effort for an average body 8 strength 7 troll to raise his chrisma and intelligence 2 points each than it takes for an average human to raise his body 5 points and his strength 4 points. Trolls with educational opportunities will likely be more inteligent as a human with the same physical stats.
lorthazar
Our group had an answer for the whole problem of Orcs and Trolls in Astral Space. We merely allowed their Physical Attribute Modifiers to apply to their astral presence. We did the same for Elves and Dwarves as well. Now this bonus would of course replace the negative modifier of the mental attribute.

We also ruled that the racial penalty was just a penalty to allocation of attributes. So if you spent 8 points on Charisma you could have a troll with a Charisma of 6. Racial maxes were also redefined as 6(9) or as the chart whichever is higher.

Ol' Scratch
Now that just doesn't make any sense at all. The astral form is a reflection of the magician's mental self; their physical characteristics mean nothing there.
lorthazar
It has always been said that your astral self is a perfected expression of yourself. What is more central to a Troll or Orks mind set than their phenomenal strength and toughness? Even the mage pride themselves on being the biggest and toughest. Why should a scrawny elf be stronger on the astral plane? Just doesn't make much sense.
Stumps
QUOTE (lorthazar)
Why should a scrawny elf be stronger on the astral plane? Just doesn't make much sense.

Actually lorthazar...that statement makes no sense.

To say that a Troll, being big and strong physically, thus must be big and strong on the Astral and that elves, being "fragile" and skinnier, thus must be weaker on the Astral plane makes no sense.

There is no correlation between the physical and astral planes in this respect.
A cripple can still be a most deadly and very mobile opponent in the Astral and the a character can have a very weak spirit (essence/magic) for reasons like cyberware and thus have a low strength in the astral plane.

---------------
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
There's also the fact that the penality applies when dealing with other Trolls

Non-issue in the revised version I made of the Racism Table. (Read above)

----------------
QUOTE (Doc-Fu)
As you mentioned, that's a social penalty.

And that's what I reflect it as in my revision.
I tossed out the charisma thing and replaced it with making it more likely for people to be racist against the Troll and Ork.
The TN penalties held in the Racism section that affect the relative Charisma roll actually take care of the Racial Penalty just fine without hitting the Troll and Ork again with a negative to Charisma.

QUOTE
It shouldn't be an inherent racial trait

Actually, until racism dies against Trolls and Orks, it should be.
It shouldn't be an inherent racial trait for a race to hate another race, however.
But it should be inherent that Trolls and Orks are more likely to be hated because more people are racist against them in the population.
Hence, this is why I revised the table to have Trolls and Orks appear more often than the other races on the Racism Table.

QUOTE
, though it makes sense for it to be on a table of Social Skill Penalties or something (as appropriate to the situation). That is -- should be -- completely seperate from racial traits.

Not needed.
Trolls and Orks themselves, as a race, suffer from no Social Skill penalties as a whole.
They only suffer those as individuals. (eg. Crude, ugly, asshole, outcast, violent, loud, annoying, etc...)
Those kinds of things can simply be added at player and GM's desire if they don't see what they are looking for in the Flaw section.
toturi
I do not understand this re-doing of the Racism table. As races, they(orks and trolls) are genetically less Charismatic (Charisma having a physical component) than other races. They are then more vulnerable to net Racism (Racism points - Cha successes). Why redo the Racism table?
Stumps
Because if you have both the Racism Table and the Charisma you end up with great possibilities as 4TN(base TN)+6TN(Racism modifier) for the Troll who also had a -2 to charisma.
This comes out to a beautiful equation of:
4D6 vs. 10TN

The reason given for the low charisma, for trolls in SR, is that they are less liked than other races.
So much so that it makes their social interaction with the population suffer.

Same, but lesser in degree, goes for the ork.


Now, since the reasoning for the low Charisma is one based in racism, I felt that it would be more apt to simply make the troll show up more often on the racism table than any other race on the list and to have the orks show up second to most on the table.

The +TN from the racism roll will more than take care of the negative impact for trolls and orks to feel.
Also, in doing this, it becomes impossible to make a race have low social skills, due from a racial penalty, because there is no longer a catch all negative to the troll, but rather a hightened amount of racism from the population.

This is more appropriate, as it is not their lack of social skills that are the problem, but rather the existence of hightened racism that causes the problem.

You can be a charming troll with great personality and a smile of a pope, but if the guy hates you at with extreme passion(+10TN), then your Charisma of 6 is going to help, but may not do the trick.

On the other hand, it does allow the Trolls to do what they are flavor-texted as doing here and there.
Having such good charisma that they can peruede a racist onto their personal side, though perhaps not change the racists over all hatered.
toturi
Have you considered the fact that perhaps the reason that they are less liked than other races is simply that they are not as Charismatic? This is kinda like the chicken and egg, so forget it, sorry.

I am not sure where exactly in the books that state that Trolls are less Charismatic because they are less liked by other races, so maybe you can just give me the page number and I'll go look it up myself.
Stumps
I'll grab more references when I get home, but for now.
P 50-51 of SR3, if I remember right.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (toturi)
Have you considered the fact that perhaps the reason that they are less liked than other races is simply that they are not as Charismatic? This is kinda like the chicken and egg, so forget it, sorry.

But we have an Earthdawn egg, as previously stated.

~J
Solstice
This thread is like a scab we just can't leave alone. As soon as it quagulates and begins to fade from the fore we start picking it again and then eating it (oh wait that's just me that eats my scabs..disregard).

Stumps
Oh, and toturi:
Also note that the Racism section henders your Charisma related roll.
In making Trolls and Orks more common on the list it makes them more often to have their Charisma rolls hendered.

The difference is that it's only against those who don't like trolls and orks.

And trolls no longer end up with bad charisma with eachother.
Stumps
Well Solstice, I'm enjoying the thread...I've actually thought most of the past few pages have been very productive conversation by everyone involved for the most part.
toturi
OK, from my reading, the negative Cha is due to physical/genetic differences. Tusks make speech sound stupid. Size (Body) also plays a part, you would be less comfortable or at ease with someone who is larger than you. This is more pronounced in Trolls than Orks, hence their smaller negative Cha modifier.

Forgive me if I have been doing this wrong, but I do the Racism Table in this way.

Roll 2D6-6 to find out if Racism applies.
If Racist apply Racist Points to Cha-linked rolls.
Can make Cha Test against 2*Racist Points (no Racist Point modifiers for this roll), to offset racism.
Stumps
Those genetic and physical differences are things that fall under racism.

Think about it.
You see someone who has Downsyndrome and you think that they are dumb.
You have no interest in talking to them about Steven Hawking because you automatically assume that they are dumb.
Congrats! you have just commited the act of being prejudice.
toturi
Racism is hating someone just because he or she is of a different race. "He is an ork therefore I hate him" is different from "He looks stupid, I hate him."

Hitler will be hate Naomi Campbell because she is black. It doesn't matter that she is one of the most charismatic person on Earth. Racism doesn't bother if you are charismatic or not. For example, I can't stand people that talk with a thick accent. To me that is uncharismatic. Am I racist if I hate it when that a fellow Asian man were to talk to me with a thick accent? To put it in another way, if someone of my own race were to suffer something that gives him bad body odor and my dog hates him, is my dog prejudiced?
Stumps
No toturi.
I fully understand what racism is.

I was using an example that related to your concepts of the physical attributes of the Troll causing their Charisma to suffer.

I had to use a non-race example because there is no race of human (that I can think of) on the earth that can be used as an example of what prejudices the Troll endures due to their teeth causing awkward speach and thus furthering an ignorant perception of stupidty.

Make sense?
DrJest
QUOTE
It doesn't matter that (Naomia Campbell) is one of the most charismatic person on Earth


She's a babe, sure enough, but have you ever talked to her? Jeez... Charismatic she ain't sarcastic.gif
toturi
QUOTE (DrJest)
QUOTE
It doesn't matter that (Naomia Campbell) is one of the most charismatic person on Earth


She's a babe, sure enough, but have you ever talked to her? Jeez... Charismatic she ain't sarcastic.gif

OK, how about Martin Luther King Jr ?
DrJest
Now you're talking smile.gif One of my coffee-shop people.
Mercer
I have the reject out of hand that Charisma has anything to do with being pretty. I'm pretty sure they removed all mention of physical attractiveness from the description of Charisma. I just find it bizarre that someone's ability to summon spirits is based on prettiness, or for that matter, how clearly they can speak.

Likeability, I also reject. A high charisma person will be more likeable when he wants to be more likeable, more intimidating when he wants to be intimidating, more offensive when he wants to be offensive. A low charisma person will generally be more annoying when he wants to be likeable, more humorous when he wants to be intimidating, and generally more unnoticeable when he wants to be offensive.

Because, to me, Charisma is the force of ones personality. It is, for lack of a better phrase, one's Astral Strength. I liken it more to confidence than likeability, a strongly developed sense of self. Naomi Campell may have the highest, ballsiest sense of self in the known universe, she may be able to bench press Astral Buildings, even though no one here in the physical realm can stand her. And this would apply even if she looked like the south end of a north bound mule.

For instance, in another system, the examples of the highest charisma people were coincidnetally, Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr and Hitler. Because both of these men had fantastic charisma. Through the force of their personality, they were able to influence millions. This seems to have little to do with their respective likeabilities. For all I know, Dr. King was a torture to sit next to on a long bus ride. And to quote Dave Barry (in service to his point that a nice thing can be said about anyone), "Mr. Hitler always kept his uniform nice and clean."
toturi
QUOTE (Mercer @ Dec 2 2004, 09:52 PM)
I have the reject out of hand that Charisma has anything to do with being pretty.  I'm pretty sure they removed all mention of physical attractiveness from the description of Charisma.  I just find it bizarre that someone's ability to summon spirits is based on prettiness, or for that matter, how clearly they can speak.

Evidently the game designers think differently. P 150 M&M Improved Looks.

The Canon defination of Charisma is (SR3):

QUOTE
More than just looks, Charisma represents a character's personal aura, self-image, ego, willingness to find out what people want and give it to them, ability to recognise what he can and can't get out of people.


Therefore Charisma includes looks, just that it isn't everything.
Stumps
QUOTE
"Mr. Hitler always kept his uniform nice and clean."

"Out! Out you damn spot!"
-Lady Macbeth
Mercer
Stumps:

If the game designers are saying physical attractiveness are a factor in conjuring... well, I may be playing a different game than they are.

Personally, I'm willing to accept that many different viewpoints in addition to mine may be perfectly valid. I'm not saying there is any inherent right or wrong in the majority of game theory discussions.

Except this one. I'm right, and they're wrong. If I carved my character's face off, and healed up without it, so that my visage was just eyeballs, teeth and meat, I fail to see how that could possibly hamper my Astral Strength or my conjuring ability. We can shoot back and forth in the forums until Y2K kills us all (which I am predicting to be in mid-2005), and I will never accept that physical attractiveness is anything other player whim or GM fiat, with no bearing on the stats whatsoever (if anything, physical stats should have more to do with physical attractiveness than Charisma, but thats a whole nother crapstorm).

My supporting arguments are almost too numerous to mention, so I will restrict myself to what I consider the crux of my opinion:

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. How can charisma be a measure of what is attractive when two people can't even agree on what is attractive? Stats are objective values, they represent a measurable thing. Beauty is entirely subjective. It varies entirely by culture, by time period. Did fat women make better conjurers in the 1700's? The mind boggles.

Just because a game designer writes down a stupid idea doesn't make it any less stupid. I mean, forgive me for being blunt. I'm not trying to be deliberately insulting to anyone, including whomever wrote that into Canon. I was so pleased when the SR3 left physical attractiveness out of the charisma description entirely, though to be fair when they say "More than just looks" in M&M, you would be justified in interpreting that to mean even ugly people can be likeable. From there, its a short jump to my idea that "looks" are completely independent from charisma.

If charisma really had that much to do with looks, if it was a determining factor in any way, wouldn't there be more hot politicians and world leaders. (I mean, Putin is kind of sexy in a James Bond Villain sort of way, but I stray slightly from the point). Attractive people sell us underwear, the rent us ski equipment, they have sitcoms on the WB. Going back to my previous example of Hitler and Dr. Martin Luther King Jr, neither of them were what you'd call hotties. (Though, clearly, all right thinking people would choose Dr. King if we had to sleep with one of them. Again, I stray slightly from the point.)

I can rant and rave like this all day. It may even be theraputic on some level. It seems pointless to speculate. I'll wrap it up here. I let people decide what their characters look like. If they want to play a hottie with a 1 Charisma, I don't have a problem with it (lord knows I've known attractive people I couldn't stand to be around). If they want to play a butt-ugly face with a Charisma 6, well, I know butt-ugly people who get laid all the time. Neither of these extremes bothers me. There doesn't really seem to be any collary between attractiveness and charisma in real life, I see no reason to write one into the game.

If every single player I have from now until the end of time (in mid 2005) wants their character to look like a Calvin Klein model, I honestly can't imagine what possible impact it could have on my game. Who cares? Its their character.

(edited for the one bricka-brackin', frick flip flarm flippin' typo I missed in the proofread.)
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (toturi)
OK, how about Martin Luther King Jr ?

You mean the guy who was shot by a racist? And to this day still has a bunch of a guys who wear pillowcases on their head blasting him whenever they get a chance? That Martin Luther King Jr. who overcame racism with his Charisma?
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Mercer)
(Though, clearly, all right thinking people would choose Dr. King if we had to sleep with one of them. Again, I stray slightly from the point.)

Dude. Hitler's moustache? So sexy.

~J
Mercer
Doc Funk brings up an interesting point I'd like to post-it note on my earlier (barely coherent) rant.

Racism and Physical Attractiveness both exist completely seperate from the character. His stats (or looks) are the same whether he is in a boardroom, on a deserted isle, or in the farthest reaches of space. He looks like what he looks like, and people may or may not find him attractive. He is whatever color or genetic expression he is, and people may or may not hate him for it. But none of that has anything to do with his stats.

In game terms, these are things that should modify rolls due to the perception of the people he is dealing with, rather than be applied to his base stats.
toturi
I edited the quote above to reflect where exactly it can from. Yes, that's right, it came from SR3, the BBB, the main rulebook. It is right there in front along with all the definations of all the other Attributes.

Mercer, you can't accept that Charisma has a physical component? Fine. It is your House rule. I'm not saying there is any inherent right or wrong in the majority of game theory discussions.

Except this one. They're right, and you're wrong. If you carved up your face, the physical component of your Charisma takes a hit (is it significant enough? perhaps it is). Charisma is not only astral ability or only physical attractiveness. It is an amlagam of all those things. It is the X factor. Might Mr William Hung be your American Idol if he was better looking? Might Mr Clinton have gotten more blow-*ahem* if he looked like Tom Cruise? I don't know. I just know that when you put physical attractiveness into the pot along with all the other ingredients you get Charisma.
Ol' Scratch
Take a look at the rules for the Improved Looks and Scarring surgical options. Take a look at the the rules for Tailored Pheromones. Then take a look at edges like Good Looking & Knows It or Ugly & Doesn't Care. Notice how neither of them have any impact whatsoever on your ability to conjure, your ability to communicate over the Matrix, or your astral strength?

So, if looks had such a dominant sway over Charisma, why doesn't any of those options (the only ones in the game representing extreme appearances) alter your Charisma directly for all purposes? Surely if looks were that important to the Charisma attribute, all of them would give a bonus or penalty on all Charisma-related tests, not just social ones made in the flesh (and only two of them do that anyway).
toturi
Funk, I am not saying that looks are the be all and end all of Charisma when Canon clearly states otherwise. I'm saying that it is part of the equation.

Looks are not the dominant ingredient of Charisma just like eggs aren't the dominant ingredient of cakes. You'll need it but you can't only use it.
Ol' Scratch
Really, it depends on how you rate the line you quoted. On one hand, yes, it's sort of implying that Charisma includes looks. On the other hand, it's saying that Charisma is beyond looks. Considering that every other aspect in the game that revolves around looks doesn't affect Charisma as a base stat, I'm going to assume it's the latter reading than the former.

And, again, you don't need looks to have a powerful Charisma. Just look to most of the aforementioned examples listed in this thread. Hitler, Churchill, Roosevelt (either of 'em), Napoleon, Martin Luther King Jr., Mother Theresa, etc. If anyone, there's more of a direct correlation to Charisma and *ugliness* on the extreme end of high Charisma than there is attractiveness.
Mercer
It makes no sense, toturi.

If the argument in favor of Charisma being the determination for physical beauty is, "What else are you going to use?", and thats pretty much anyone has ever been able to come up with, then thats not much in favor of using it. If the argument is, "It's in the book", then thats not much to go on. Lots of things are in the book, and when they demonstrably make no sense, you change them. If your argument is, you use every rule in the book exactly as written, then I respect that. (Its how I play D&D; the rules don't make any sense anyway, why alter them to change a couple of things? If I want to play a game that makes a little sense, I have SR.)

Simply because physical attractiveness is entirely subjective means it makes no sense to have it tied to an objective stat. Otherwise, you're ork conjurer would tote around a ork fetishist to stare at him while he conjured spirits (and he might, but to imply this would give him a Cha bonus makes no sense).

Charisma is a stat. If its a 4, its a four all day long and twice on Sunday. Its not 2 when the racist grocer is looking at you, and 6 when a hottie is checking you out. You might have negative tN#'s when buying bread from the former and positive tn#'s because the latter likes a guy who can hook his Prince Albert to his nipple ring, but to imply that this changes your character's fundamental Astral Strength is bizarre. It requires a leap in logic akin to Superman jumping off the Hulk's back while they ride a 700 meter long flea through the vaccuum of space (which, if you subsitute Superman for Tom Delay and the flea for the Magna Carta, thats practically a joke Dennis Miller would use).
Botch
If you look in the companion and read the description for Fomori it specifically states that they are the most beautiful of troll variants and as such recieve no CHA penalty. That is a pretty good example that physical appearence has far too large a part to play in CHA a stat which should have nothing to do with beauty.
Ol' Scratch
Actually it's simply proof that the Charisma penalty for trolls is based almost entirely on looks. That's what people are objecting to, and why you see houserules flying around this thread.
toturi
Charisma is a stat that is, and I quote, "nebulous".

To illustrate my point, if you are a charismatic person like perhaps Austin Powers, and if you got into an accident and came out looking like Freddy Kreuger, I would not be surprised if you have lost your mojo.
Ol' Scratch
In the flesh, possibly (see: Improved Looks, then reverse it). But it wouldn't have any impact on his astral abilities or his ability to seduce chicks via the Matrix.
Botch
But Austin Powers did lose his mojo without changing his appearance one iota, in fact Autin Powers uses his mojo (CHA) to overcome his appearance. In the world of Austin Powers you can definately say that CHA and appearance are separate.

CHA worked better in SR1 when magic and matrix use where underexplored, that was a long time ago. If you flesh out all the skills and game world tacked onto a stat then it is only consistant to make sure that stat actually functions correctly.

SR is not a medieval fantasy world were 20 miles is a long way and separate races live in separate villages and towns, get over it.
hyzmarca
Stats aren't effects, they're causes. People don't have high chrasima because of good looks or an attractive voice. They look good and have an attractive voice because they have high chrisma.
At the same time, people don't have high strength because of big miscles, they have big muscles because of high strength.
Mercer
Charisma doesn't seem that nebulous to me. I would say it is easily definable as your Astral Strength. Its how hard your soul punches (which in the case of Issac Hayes, would have to be as hard as a... but I stray). Much in the same way Intelligence is how fast your soul moves, and willpower is how tough your soul is.

In fact, looking at it that way, it makes no sense for CHA to factor into physical attractiveness, because it is the strength of your soul. To put another way, its how strong you are without a body. I don't know how attractive someone without a body would be, but I would think it wouldn't be very attractive.

In the physical world, I interpret CHA to be how well you enforce your will on other people. Willpower is how well you stick to your guns, and intelligence is a measure of perception and how quickly your mind works. I am not claiming this is a radical interpretation of the rulebook, either, I'd say it comes pretty much right out of it.

To clarify, I don't have a problem with orks and trolls losing CHA; obviously they have to lose points somewhere. I'd sure as hell rather it be CHA than Will. I don't think anyone is suggesting they not lose points in CHA, we're just saying-- or to be clear-- I'm just saying that to say they lose points (in conjuring and astral strength) because a certain segment of the population finds them unattractive doesn't make any sense.

The logic of it is so faulty its fun to sit back and shoot holes in it. If the CHA penalty was for being pretty, wouldn't you get those points back if you shapechanged into a human (or gawd forbid, an elf?) Wouldn't (as Doc Funk noted) there be some CHA bonus or penalty listed in the book for all the edges, flaws, scarring and plastic surgery that deal specifically with physical attractiveness?

If having a stat measure physical attractiveness is important, why don't we just write Comeliness down there next to Combat Pool and give it a value of d6. We could come up with all the bonuses and penalties each race has dealing with each race, based on stereotypes of which race finds what attractive. (We could even give Japanese Schoolgirls a +4, just cuz.) If fact, if memory serves, some other system did this. Oh yeah, 1st ed AD&D. Why even bother to use SR, we could just use those Comeliness rules, -18 to 25, +2 for Grey Elves and so on.

Waitaminute. In rereading the last paragraph I came to the realization that it is so phenomenally stupid that the left half of my brain seperated itself from the right, crawled down my neck and began to strangle my own heart. So suffice to say, I'll have to wrap this up pretty quick.

Edit for spelling
DrJest
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
QUOTE (Mercer @ Dec 2 2004, 10:32 AM)
(Though, clearly, all right thinking people would choose Dr. King if we had to sleep with one of them.  Again, I stray slightly from the point.)

Dude. Hitler's moustache? So sexy.

~J

Wife: Yeeeuuurrrgghh!

Me: Relax, it's just Kagetenshi being tongue in cheek.

Wife: (pause) Can we please not talk about tongues and Hitler's moustache in the same sentence? It's disturbing to my demeanour.
Fortune
I'd definitely choose to screw Hitler over King, if I absolutely had to make the choice.
Stumps
QUOTE
If the game designers are saying physical attractiveness are a factor in conjuring... well, I may be playing a different game than they are.

Mercer,
I can't recall saying anything about this at all...I'm lost.

I took out the Charisma penalty all together when I re-did that racism table.

Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (Fortune @ Dec 2 2004, 06:44 PM)
I'd definitely choose to screw Hitler over King, if I absolutely had to make the choice.

Pfft. Gimme Churchill any day of the week. At least he'd make me laugh in bed. <pauses> Uhm... <disconnects>
Stumps
QUOTE (Doc-Fu)
Actually it's simply proof that the Charisma penalty for trolls is based almost entirely on looks. That's what people are objecting to, and why you see houserules flying around this thread.

See...Trolls sucking it out because of looks doesn't bother me at all.
You have to look at it from the right perspective though.
The Troll doesn't suck at being socially accepting because of his looks (charisma penalty-boo-hiss!)
But the people they interact with suck at being social with the Troll because of their prejudices that incompass many things, including a distate for the looks of a Troll.

Hence: Remove Charisma penalty and adjust Racism Table.
Done. The right perspective is now in play.
hyzmarca
But, removing the Chrisma penality makes Troll magicians and adepts that much more powerful. It is just like giving them 4 free BP.
The way I look at it is this, a characters natural stats are a product of his Astral Pattern. Changing the stats requires changing the astral pattern, this is why stat imporvments cost karma as if it were the result of a magic ritual of some sort. The Astral patern influances the physical pattern in some ways. People with low CHA will be less attractive than people with high CHA because of this.
Purely superficial physical details do not effect the Astral pattern, which is why Good Looking and Knows It and Cultured Tailored Pheremones don't increase astral damage or conjuring ability or make it easier to learn skills. It is also why the cyberware strength bonuses of a dual natured being don't carry over to Astral Combat.
If a Strength 19 Adept with 10 base STR, 3 points of IA STR, 3 STR points of bioware augmentation, and 3 STR points of Cyber punches an astral spirit he only does 16 points of damage. His natural strength is part of his astral pattern, the magical augmentation exists on astral, the bioware is alive and has its own astral pattern, but the cyber doesn't have an astral presense. With Tailored pheremones, the gland has an Astral Presence but the chemicals it produces do not.

When Trolls were created, their natrualy superior strength and body had to be counterbalanced. Creating them with equal base mental abilities would simply cost the aforementioned Ancient Pseudo-Dragon too much Karma, if it were even possible.
From a game balance perspective, Trolls don't have any disadvantages when created using the BP system. They cost 10 BP and have 8 BP worth of penalities, but they also get 18 BP worth of Stat bonuses, natural thermovision and dermal armor. It is very balanced. There is no need to change it.
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